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Discussion: They Can't Do That?

Posted Discussion
Sept. 14, 2009
Corky
Men's 55
444 posts
They Can't Do That?
Has anyone ever gone to a National Championship tournament and been moved up a division after completing the pool play??
Sept. 14, 2009
kbl
Men's 60
523 posts
corky, why does that situation enter your mind? ken
Sept. 14, 2009
Paul P
Men's 65
39 posts
I was at Dalton, GA for the SPA event and saw a team play in 60AA during pool play and was subsequently "upped" to 60AAA during bracket play. Im unaware of why it happened, but I did see them play and thought they were just a shade under the AAA level. I thought most of the AAA teams were right where they were supposed to be, Express, Time Bandits, Ga/Al, Senior moments,etc.
Sept. 14, 2009
Corky
Men's 55
444 posts
kbl: I guess its because it happened to us once and recently to another one of our local teams. We were re-rated from major to AAA by SSUSA after completing the mandatory 3 tournament 6 team butt kickings, but SPA refuses to acknowledge the re-rate till AFTER the Dalton Nationals. Check their site. Why do you ask?
Sept. 14, 2009
birdie
Men's 60
671 posts
Corky, Was the team that you are referring to the Indy60s? I have a long time buddy that plays for that team and they were moved up to 60 AAA after the pool games.They went 1-2 and went home.he said that there where AAA teams playing AA and Major teams playing AAA. I do not know about that but they were moved up. Thanks Harry
Sept. 14, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
Appears that someone was snookered. But the way some things have been going it doesn't surprise me.
Sept. 14, 2009
kbl
Men's 60
523 posts
corky, i justwanted to know why you brought it up. i just play AA ball. thanks for answering me. have a good day. ken
Sept. 14, 2009
Dbax
Men's 60
1223 posts
I know it is not unheard of.
Sept. 14, 2009
curveball
Men's 65
395 posts
Happened to Top Gun 60's in Phoenix a couple of years ago(maybe 06') at SSUSA Worlds. Qualified #3 and got moved from AAA to Major. #1 and #2 were not moved. Took our lumps in Major and went home. Not at a World Championship, but at a Nationals, the
Springs in Mesquite, NV. Moved to Major+ from Major after qualifying. Took more lumps and went home again.
Sept. 14, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
Retro fit: Indy 60's...Well if that's the team I'd bet they won their seeding games by a large, maybe very large margin...
If that be the case, 3A is where you probably belonged.

Maybe the 8 ball scratched or the assn miss Q'ed.
Sept. 14, 2009
hitman
Men's 65
290 posts
I don't think it should be fair either if they came in AA and didn't load up with RINGERS, although they went 3-0 in pool/seeding games and scored an average of 26 runs while only giving up an average of 12.
Maybe they picked up a major player and got caught.
Someone knows the real reason!!!!!!!!!!!

The Hitman #13
Sept. 14, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
hitman,
SPA
Sept. 14, 2009
DRob
34 posts
First...... Congratulations to KC Thunder on their 60 AA win at Dalton. Wish we could have played them again. We split 2 games with them last year. Good guys, good team.

Now, on topic: I play for the Indy 60s. We were in fact moved up to AAA after pool play. SPA went through a lot of gyrations trying to justify the move including calling another Indy team to ask if any of our players were on his roster. They weren't. We played 4 SPA tournaments this year (including Dalton) with the same roster except that we were missing 2 starting infielders at Dalton. We haven't exactly dominated so far. We won Shelbyville, IN after going to the "IF" game, were 2nd in South Bend, IN, and got beat up in Columbus, OH. I don't even know what our place was there. We are a good AA team and played exceptionally well in the pool games in Dalton. We hit the ball just as well in the AAA games but only won one of them against a team who shouldn't have been in AAA. It was pretty clear that we will not threaten many teams in AAA unless we pick up a few more good players. It was obvious that the 2 AAA teams who beat us played much better defense than anybody we saw in AA. Hitting the ball is one thing, scoring is another.

As for teams playing in AA who were ranked AAA and Major teams playing in AAA, based on the rankings which were available online during the tournament..... that is true. Who knows what may have happened which is not reflected in the rankings but we printed them off after we got moved. As of this writing, Indy 60s is still ranked AA on the SPA website but SS-USA shows us as AAA, dated today.

Strangely enough, we finished 2nd at Dalton last year and were never moved up while the 1st place and 3rd place teams were. I consider that just another example of how things go in SPA. I believe we were moved up during the tournament because we thumped some teams who just didn't play well and several teams whined to Ridge Hooks who simply folded. We requested Mr. Hooks meet with us after we were eliminated and he said he would do that. Surprise! He was unavailable and sent Layla, whoever she is. She had no answers or explanation and actually told us we had been moved up before the tournament. Of course we know that isn't true since we played AA pool play. She then hung her hat on the fact that we had won the SS-USA Northern Nationals in Lansing. As noted above, we were still AA acording to SS-USA until today. SPA had tried to use teh excuse that we had 3 guys on the Dalton roster who were not on the Lansing roster but all 3 of them were on the roster for every SPA tournament we played. They simply didn't go to Lansing and were left off that roster. They were on our roster for the May tournament in Indy. One is a good outfielder, the other two play part time at catcher and first base.

Had we been moved to AAA prior to this tournament we would have no complaint and would understand the move, at an appropriate time, if we had EVER won a national championship under any association. Bottom line is SPA accepted our entry in AA, scheduled us in AA, then reneged. I can only tell you what happened. Draw your own conclusions.

Sorry this got a little windy but it's not easy to set this table. A little venting is involved here, also.

Sept. 15, 2009
Corky
Men's 55
444 posts
hitman: We all hit together at the local "hit club" and I've never known any of these guys to be anything but honest and straight forward. Their roster is the same every tournament. The sad part is that this kind of action by SPA leads to "sandbagging" in the Pool games. We all have been to tournaments when the "pool team" leaves on friday and the "Bracket Team" shows up on saturday. The question now remains "IF" they won the Northern Nationals (qualifier), which is a TOC bid, do they go as AA or AAA. AND what is fair AND what can be done about it????
Sept. 15, 2009
Corky
Men's 55
444 posts
This one's for you Lindsey
Sept. 15, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
Corky,
Showing up with two different teams, imo is sandbagging. (one for pool playing one for bracket elim games).
Play weak or even a strong one then do the reverse, is not what the game imo is about. But your right it still goes on.
Can still be deemed honest but not completely honest.
Went to one where the team played two different ways, in pool games, infield played out and out played in and batting left to right etc. In double elim they played their normal positions, batted as would normally. That's real utilization, but also misleading.
I think that div they "won" at, is where they are "supposed" to go to TOC, but given the scheme of things would it really surprise you differently? Now if they won with say the low end guys, and went with and played only them, that would be another story too. Kinda comes down to are you playing to win at any cost, or for the love of the game. I know there are both out there.
Need another ring thing to add, & my possible fame nomination or my epitaph.
Play as equal as you can or can be managed to be put together.
Sept. 15, 2009
DRob
34 posts
Corky, thanks for the kind remarks. How do you like that extended right field fence? I found a dozen balls outside it Monday. Somebody must have thrown them out there.

taits, I agree with your assessment on sandbagging. We've all seen it happen and I suppose most of us have done something that could be considered sandbagging. The fact that we hit 14 guys in pool play and fewer in bracket games could be considered sandbagging, I suppose. If so, guilty as charged. However, our players play their positions and we try to win every game we're in. I know who you were talking about and the conversation took place elsewhere about infielders and outfielders swapping. In fact, one of the teams we beat in pool play mentioned they had players "flying in tomorrow". I wonder why you're even allowed to play guys in a bracket game who didn't play in pool games. New rule????

You are correct on the TOC. I've been informed that we will play AA if we got to the TOC and that our roster must match the Lansing roster. Thanks for the info, DM!
Sept. 15, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
DRob,
Roster checks are 1 thing they are good at doing. Unless jet lag set in...lol.
Given that players, err teams, do have their good days (games) & bad one, perhaps this was one of those, but I have my doubts.
Good luck where ever you end up.
I believe there is something about having to play in seeding games now, as well as in the elimination games. There is at least one assn that requires a player to play 3 full innings. Which could make big differences in outcomes. Not a bad way to separate the wheat from the chaff. That really might put some broken gears in a 15 man line up. And I have seen some with 17 there. Economics in reality but loading up could be another.
Sept. 15, 2009
Auger
Men's 65
14 posts
Corky,you will be an animal at 60 next year.We, the Indy 60s are trying to improve our skills by playing leagues together and by the "Hit Club". Some teams try to improve their chances of winning by sneaking in and out of Mr. Hooks's trailer.We play pool games as hard as we play championship games.No sandbagging. Thanks for your support.You would look good in Gray/Blk
Sept. 15, 2009
Paul P
Men's 65
39 posts
I played with Senior Moments in the 60AAA. (The overweight lefthanded 1st baseman!!!) We batted 14 in the seeding games so that everyone got their time in, rotating position players with DHs so no one got too tired. During bracket play we dropped to 11 hitters, yes, to try and win. Sandbagging? Nahhhh!

Now what about the poor guy who has to work and arrives a day late to the event? That did not happen with us, but I foresee it as a problem in making players play the seeding games before being allowed in bracket play.

I enjoyed my time at Dalton with SPA and enjoyed the fine competition. We lost 3 games, all by one run. Much fun!!!
Sept. 15, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
The Indy 60's were just rerated to AAA yesterday (9-14-2009) by SSWC. Any speculation as to why? Ridge Hooks, Indiana Classics/Webb Auto, Chicago Hitmen, etc.
Sept. 15, 2009
hitman
Men's 65
290 posts
Hope I didn't offend anyone as I just trying to bring up scenarios that would cause a team to be moved. If it was only for Pool results bad move because half of pool play is luck of draw. As Paul P said our team EXPRESS played like they did, all 15 in pool and we lost all three. We played 11 or 12 in tourney and won 5 in a row, three of them by a total of 5 runs, Sandbagging not hardly who wants to be the last seed so you can play the number 1 seed first and have to play an extra game. Just a different mix in lineup and playing positions yield different results.
Paul you sure can hit it and really move good for a big man. I think the catch in right center was the difference in our game. Always a pleasure to play Senior Moments.
Take care and God Bless,
The Hitman #13
Sept. 15, 2009
doker
Men's 60
168 posts
DOKER HERE!! JUST ADDING MY TWO CENTS!!!!...I WAS AT THE SPA IN DALTON THIS LAST WEEKEND I PLAYED WITH THE DALLAS SPURS INSTEAD OF MY OWN TEAM IN 60AA.W/SPA ONLY......FROM WHAT I KNOW ABOUT WHY THEY WERE MOVED UP ..IS THAT ONE OF THE TEAMS PROTESTED SOME OF THEIR PLAYERS BEING MAJOR AND MAJOR PLUS ON OTHER RECENT TEAMS...I WAS JUST A PLAYER SO I WAS NOT THAT INTO IT.....IN THE PRELIMS THEY WERE THE ONLY TEAM THAT SCORED MORE THAN 20 RUNS IN A GAME AND THEY DID IT IN ALL THREE OF THE PRELIMS.THEY PLAYED REALLY GOOD AGAINST US..ALTHOUGH WE DIDN'T HIT THAT WELL IN THAT GAME... THEY BEAT US BY 15...THEY WERE A GOOD BUNCH OF GUYS AND I FEEL FOR THEM..AS THEY WERE AT THE TOURNEY ALREADY AND RANKED 60AA...THEY PROBABLY WUD HAVE WON THE TOURNEY EASILY BUT AGAIN THAT SHUD HAVE BEEN DONE BEFORE THEY GOT THERE.....BUT THEY WERE ALSO COMPETITIVE IN THE 60AAA GAMES THEY PLAYED...NEVER GETTING BLOWN OUT AS THEY WERE DOING TO US.......ALL IN ALL THE DALTON AREA IS AWESOME I WILL BRING MY OWN TEAM BACK NEXT YEAR...AS THE COMPETITION WAS REALLY GOOD....HOPE TO SEE YA'S IN PHX AND LAS IN OCT-NOV....DOKER
Sept. 15, 2009
rabbit
Men's 65
294 posts
Lemons, I would like to correct your statement you made on a team name, the team you are thinking about was the Indiana Legends/Webbs auto and not the Indiana Classic 55's, which is my team, I would never say anything bad about the Indy 60's team.Two of the Indy 60's play for my team in the 55's and I do not want to be mention as a team that did say anything,

Rabbit, coach of the Indiana Classics 55's
Sept. 15, 2009
ShaneV
Men's 55
380 posts
NW Championships Portland OR 2007 - Lucky Eagle/Second Wind moved to 50AAA after playing 50AA pool games. Not given a choice however a reasonable explanation. We had success at 50AA and were moved to 50AAA rating May 2008.

ShaneV
Sept. 15, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
SPA rated the Indy 60's team back in March as AA.
One thing I like on their site is that SOME, not all, teams list the roster. This is a good idea but would be better if they all were.
Sept. 15, 2009
Corky
Men's 55
444 posts
DOKER: your saying one... countem 1... team complained about ALLEGED players and Ridge moved them. After.... as taits said.... they were rated AA in March. Must have been a pretty IMPORTANT team or player to get that done. Most of us can't even get a reply to an e-mail or phone call. Wish I had that kind of pull.
Sept. 15, 2009
DRob
34 posts
Just a word on the Indy 60s roster. We had 3 guys in Dalton who were not on the Lansing SSUSA roster. However, the roster we submitted in Dalton was identical to the roster used in 3 other SPA tournaments this year. SPA chose to ignore their own tournament rosters and tried to nitpick the Lansing roster.

Sept. 16, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
The implication is that The Indy 60's had cheated, loaded up, or done something inappropriate for this tournament. They absolutely had not. Rabbit, I apologize about the misnamed team, they ought to be The Indiana Legends/Webb Auto. Doker, I challenge anyone to find someone on The Indy 60's Dalton roster who hadn't been on their roster all year. Those with less time just turned 60 this year.
Sept. 16, 2009
rabbit
Men's 65
294 posts
Lemons, you are right, The Indy 60's have the same players that were at the team meeting at the beginning of he year, I know, because I was there also, some did just turn 60 and joined the team in June, some said they could not go to Lansing, so they were left off the roster,I would imagine that is why they were not on it, besides they have 23 players on there roster.What SPA did was not right, over the past 12 years I have seen a lot of teams, that were playing down, and the Indy 60's are not one of them,they never moved any of them up to my knowlege, Rabbit
Sept. 17, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Thanks for the testimony Rabbit. I look forward to having you as a member of our 60 AAA team next year (as well as a couple of other players that may help us compete in AAA). Good luck in Dalton, and give my regards to the guys. Mel
Sept. 17, 2009
Auger
Men's 65
14 posts
Hi Lemons,Tell coach I gave Hooks his letter.I had my Indy 60s hat on when I did.Ridge could not say enough good things about you. Said you two were playing phone tag.We lost our 1st game 15 to 16. On a 4 hour rain delay now. So far no team has been moved up or down.Tell the team I am pushing every chance I get.
Sept. 17, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
Long enough wait:
IMO, if the rosters were identical for the SPS events previously played in, and this is another SPA T, ignoring their own roster(s) seems odd.
I can understand checking info between assns but on a apples for apples rational, not for a your roster vs our roster,
Two seperate assns most likely would have two different rosters. and to judge by using another roster doesn't seen right.
But whatever & the reason, it should be explained to you, by both.
Even if scores were lopsided, still 2 different places, rules and rosters.
Sept. 17, 2009
Auger
Men's 65
14 posts
taits,there will be no response from SPA or Ridge. He made a mistake and will keep quiet and let this die a slow death. I saw him today and it was hand shaking and kissing babies.What goes around comes around. If you play SPA, beware!!
Sept. 20, 2009
Auger
Men's 65
14 posts
I played 55 AAA this weekend in Dalton. We played 2 teams twice, once in pool and once in tourney play each. Both teams played hard and clean in all games, no sand bagging, but both teams had new players for the tourney games.I have no problems with this because it is with in the rules and makes sense. My point, pool play is NOT an accurat measurement of a teams ability and to re-rate after pool play is just WRONG. We Indy60s didn't open this can of worms, Ridge did. To close it, he needs to admit the mistake and put us where we belong untill we win something. How about it Ridge? Do the right thing.
Sept. 20, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Auger you are exactly right. We were penalized for playing as well as we could in an attempt to win the best seed possible and were, in effect, given the death penalty for it. Wherever Ridge got his rumors and false accusations, he still should have done the right thing. He ought to blame "the committee" for this injustice, step in and correct this error in the fairest way possible.
Sept. 20, 2009
Antique Road Show
3 posts
Just a comment: I remember telling my Pastor that I was proud to play with an organization that engraved ......"To God be the Glory" on all of its awards. I even witnessed Ridge praying with players over needs in their lives and thought what a wonderful thing. Now I see that his christianity is only lip service. If he truly is a christian he would not let money push him to make unfair decisions. I guess "Beware of Wolves in Sheeps clothing" is a good warning to us all.
Sept. 21, 2009
SOFTBALL6
18 posts
We played the Indy 60 team in Dalton and although they weren't a strong AAA team, they definitely were AAA. When a team scores as many runs as they did against AA teams, they need to be moved up. Their shortstop, WOW, hit as hard as any player we played against and although they had a few weaknesses, they were competitive. They should add some better players and compete as a AAA team next year because they are not far from a really good team. My kudos to them for accepting the challenge and playing their best. I have known Ridge for 15 years and know him as an honorable, christian gentleman. I for one am glad a TD made a move that was right and maintained the parity in the AA division.
Sept. 21, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
244 posts
SBALL6, I do not agree ,if this aa team was playing with same rooster they had played with all year plus Ridge had rooster probably a month before Tourney started for SPA to view and if moved to aaa thats the time to do it not after pool play. How were they seeded in the aaa Brackett play?. I do not have a horse in this race but I've said all along that for a say aaa team to win one of these big Worlds(10 or more teams)they have to play like a Major team that weekend. I'm saying you can not move a team just because they got hot a scored a lot of runs in one day. We all played on teams that get hot everyone is hitting heck last year in Phoenix we scored 17 runs in top of 7th to break open a close game it happens. Our team when to Vegas a few years ago we were playing 55aaa and a 55 MAJOR+ team had changed their name,had their batt bags hanging on fence with M+ name on them, this was brought up to TD but nothing was done and they placed 3rd so 2 aaa teams got hot that weekend,also we have not been back to Vegas. My 2 cents
Sept. 21, 2009
Antique Road Show
3 posts
Softball6: NOT IN THE MIDDLE OF A TOURNAMENT: They played AA all year and registered as AA. It doesn't matter how they played in the pool play. The time to move them is after the tournament IF they won. Our team has been double dipped to lose a big tournament. What would you do with them if they ended up 2nd or 3rd???
Sept. 21, 2009
Auger
Men's 65
14 posts
SBall6,What's the difference between a strong AA team and a not so strong AAA team? Last year Indy 60s was a good team and won nothing,this year they added some players and became a really good AA team and got moved up after pool games at a national tourney. They did what you just said to do and got moved. Now do it again? We followed the SPA rules. The "honorable, christian gentleman" did not and we got penalized for it.
Sept. 21, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Softball6. It is exactly what you have said that influenced Mr. Hooks to take the inappropriate action he did. Players should have NO influence on how or why a team is rated as they are. Rumors and false accusations, such as yours were why The Indy 60's were moved up despite using the same roster for well over a year. (and the fact that we hit the ball very well and our opponents contributed with fielding errors).
Sept. 21, 2009
DRob
34 posts
Softball6, a TD eliminating a strong team from the division in which they are rated by his own organization in the middle of a tournament is not maintaining parity. It's called lowering the bar and it's not only unfair to the team which got booted but also an insult to the other teams in the division.
Sept. 21, 2009
dix47
12 posts
I play with and against the guys from the Indy 60s in Leagues. They are a great bunch of guys. They had a chance to win a National taken away because a few teams didn't want to play them.
It's a shame, some players work to get better, some whine.
I feel bad for the Indy 60s.
They got hammered on that call.
Sept. 21, 2009
CAT
148 posts
Can't you guys see what this is all about - $$$$$. The Indy 60s are truly a good bunch of guys and would never do anything beyond the rules they play. We never had these issues 10 years ago so severely as we do now. I believe the reason is that the organizations then were smaller and big profits were not there for them yet. We as teams gripe but still fall into their graces. Look what happened a few years ago to the ISF and ISSA. Teams stopped going and changes were then made. My suggestion is to quite griping and stay away from these organizations. One solution that we are trying, is to play more local tourns. without I.D. cards. I truly feel that most teams just want to play with their buddies. But then again, you have few to the exception that makes is bad for all. Again, do the players and teams do something about it, or just keep whinning!
Sept. 22, 2009
Auger
Men's 65
14 posts
Cat, I agree. In the 60s tourney,2 AAA teams said they would not come if they were not re-rated. Any one can check SPA's web site and see who is still rated AAA that played AA. My problem is not with the teams,they told SPA what it would take to get them to go and with a wave of the magic re-rating wand it came to be. Is it me or does any one else see a pattern here?
Sept. 23, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Don't lose sight of the fact that on Monday, Sept. 14 (a day after Dalton) the SSWC group, or Terry Hennessey, were sitting around and suddenly decided, "Let's re-rate ONE 60+ team..........The Indy 60's." Two different associations perhaps in collusion?
Sept. 23, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
Lemon,
Wait & read the article I referred to in a post, Page 9, in Senior SB newspaper.
If either of both used real tournaments for "their or someone else's, decision" it's a done deal, i'd think. Might have to wait for another 3 or a combo to be redone...
Nothing was mentioned about when the re-rate starts again or if continues from part of those or Exactly, the mix used. Imo
I do like only 5 runs score differences part, but the another question is are they the pool play and the DE games or one part of the "tournament". Which should be the DE & "if" is used. A few questions not answered. I'm sure some other players might have more. I liked what content was their, but we should have the w'HOLE' story. U
I see a problem in Non ring Q's with only using DE games however, in that should a team decide to sandbag and either win or loose by the 5+ or so runs on either side of the T, (pool\DE) it would not give actual value to win\losses used and they would still qualify for a major T where they might play lower than they would have otherwise...i could easily be wrong, but that's how i see it.
I doubt one would one want to loose in a ring T for that reason, unless the move meant heaver competition and a definite move up.
Collusion, I doubt it, comparing notes yes, & is a necessity for all of them, but rarely used, it would seem.





Sept. 23, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
taits,
The reason I said collusion and not comparing notes is that there were 3 SSWC AAA rated teams in the AA division of the Dalton, Ga. SPA tournament. However, a legitimate AA team, The Indy 60's, was moved up by SPA during the tourney and immediately following the tournament by SSWC. The three AAA rated (SSWC) teams remained in the AA division.
Sept. 23, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
Leomons,
I knew about the mid T move, but do not don't know the stuff about the other teams you mention. But do know it is not going to change a thing as to what happened. One can only hope things were learned by it and all can move forward.
Perhaps, ???, the stats info for any move was "late", getting info to those involved...
Go to the Nashville conference... voice some feelings & CONCERNS about specific things.
Trouble I see is it would take the whole week dedicated to only senior ball to reach agreements on most matters. The one's I've been involved in got little done or tabled for later. Those rarely get settled with thought but in to it.
No open mind and heart for the game, you will solve nothing. If concern is for the business, other concerns will be forgotten. Care or concerned about both, you ALL have to communicate, talk, discuss, bargain, give and take without the egos getting involved. But come as prepared as you can with what info is available. No doubt their will be some advantage for some.
At least your closer to the convention site for it than I am...
Sept. 23, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
Sorry about the misspelling again.
Sept. 25, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Time goes by and there have been absolutely NO rational explanations for the Dalton mid-tournament re-rating of The Indy 60's by SPA or the SSWC re-rating immediately following. The leadership of both organizations hopes that their misguided action will be forgotten. Perhaps it will by most, but those of us from The Indy 60's who had the once in a lifetime opportunity to compete for a National Championship will always remember the injustice that deprived us of that chance.
Sept. 25, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
Lemons,
While I believe that is wrong, for me at least, it reflects on many aspects of more than just a* reputation, character, or all around fairness.
* the person or assn,
Given the time it has been i doubt it will come... perhaps if your going to Nashville, you can get it. I hope you do.
Sept. 26, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
taits,
Thanks for the kind words. I'm still aghast that, after many years of being beaten by recently higher rated, then re-rated teams prior to tournaments, this was done to us after pool play in which we faced only 3 of the 10 teams in the tournament. I probably won't be in Nashville. Best wishes in your softball future!
Sept. 29, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
P.S. Since this took place, we have been told by SSWC that we would have to play in AAA in Ft. Myers. We would have no chance to win against bonafide AAA teams, so we have opted not to attend. That will be expensive since some of our players had already booked travel. Oh, well...........isn't softball great?
Sept. 30, 2009
Auger
Men's 65
14 posts
When SSWC followed SPA's lead and re-rated us, it cost them $450.00 and the locals 4 to 7 days of 18 plus people spending money in the area.We can put our time and money to better use by supporting organizations that remembers who the customers are. Missing the Winter Nationals suck.Hopefully it will still be above freezing in Indiana and we can practice outside.
Sept. 30, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
auger only $450,that must of been a no qual tourney or something like that.that is the cheapest we've been paying,and thats to include both assoc's.i can't see where we have to pay so much just to go play softball.i still play with the kids and our most expensive tourney's run $200 and they give out bats to the winners(4-6 bats depending on how many teams there are) and even down to 4th place team getting 1 bat.its a shame how we get taken by all the assoc(senior's).
Sept. 30, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Mad Dog, You're right! Somehow the associations have lost track of the fellowship, friendship, and competition (of similar teams!) and begun to focus on the almighty dollar. I'd like to see teams begin to hold "local" tournaments on week-ends that compete with SPA (or any organized association for that matter). One team from Dayton mentioned having a tournament next year during the SPA in Columbus, OH.
Sept. 30, 2009
Auger
Men's 65
14 posts
Mad Dog, I agree with you on senior cost. Senior softball is a business and the owner should make a FAIR profit, but also should put out a good product. SPA Dalton cost $600 plus and did not follow their own rules. This to me is not a good product.Indy 60s was not the only team re-rated at Dalton. Lala said SPA had to do it to a 70s team the week before. Just like any other product, if it's not worth the money, I am not buying.
Sept. 30, 2009
CAT
148 posts
I just had a five team tourn. this past weekend in Columbus, Ohio.(that came about within four weeks of preparing). And trust me, it was a lot better than the four team world tourn. we had in Dalton this year and an awful less expensive. Next year, I will be having a spring and fall $$$ tourn. NO CARDS and I will try to encourage the league teams around Central Ohio to participate.Dayton will be having the Jimmy V on the 4th of July. Again, no cards. If you would like on the list for these tournaments, please email me: funinsun333@yahoo.com
Sept. 30, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Auger, I think the cost for Dalton was $700. Our team also spent thousands of dollars on lodging and food. When you say they did not follow their own rules, are you referring to their web page that states, "Criteria for rating teams will not be changed for 2009"? CAT, I have an idea that our Indy 60's team will be asking for your tournament schedules. Thanks.
Sept. 30, 2009
Corky
Men's 55
444 posts
That's exactly why we didn't go to Dalton this year and now that they charge so much "AND THEN" make you pay for your awards is the last straw and the last time you'll see us at a SPA event.
Sept. 30, 2009
DRob
34 posts
Corky, I think that's called voting with your entry fee. There should be a lot more of that going on. I'm certainly not the voice of our team but I know I won't be going to another SPA tournament.

Sept. 30, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
RE Dalton. Any idea on exact number if teams there,
any other cost like for ups scorekeepers etc? Or id there was brackets listed to view?
Oct. 1, 2009
Auger
Men's 65
14 posts
Taits, I looked up the 50,55 and 60 AA and AAA playing at Dalton for 2008 and 2009. 2008 had 57 teams and 2009 had 47 teams. I only counted Indy 60s once even though we played AA and AAA the SAME DAY. Looks like a 10 team decline in these age groups and skill levels. Some one else can look up the others. Now I understand why teams can get re-rated, just threaten not to come. This looks very ugly.
Oct. 1, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Auger, Do you suppose that any of those re-rated (down) teams had any influence on Mr. Hooks' decision to re-rate (up) The Indy 60's after they had completed their pool play? At that rate, SPA will be left with few teams willing to spend the money involved in traveling to their tournaments.
Oct. 1, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
Generally speakingI was looking at SPA's web side and it appears they started playing on Thurs and went thru Sun. for that. didn't dee how many parks or fields they used. or what they game as awards other than I believe a ring tourney.
I believe I remember a more expensive Dalton T some years back though, at about 900.

Seems that all will charge what ever they can and as long as you keep coming. Most problems arise AFTER you pay and THEN find out you will only play a couple of teams.
So in essence, if you pay your tourney fees, expect the unexpected:
You are ONLY guaranteed to play, (5 games),
Not to win,
Not any specific number of teams or different teams,
Not at same level or age, or as you thought you were rated.
Not good balls or great weather,
So enjoy playing, and hopefully have some fun and come back for another shot should you not do as you hoped.

For you who travel all over & can,
Go to Nashville, TN, Confront by asking questions, to find out and get answers.
-------
Lip service comes from both sides, But one on occasion, also has to put their money where their mouth is to get something done. Or at least try.
If someone going and has kept one of those petitions that went around awhile back bring that as some back up or start another.
Oct. 1, 2009
Auger
Men's 65
14 posts
I believe going to Nashville will not solve anything. SPA broke their own rules and tried to justify it by saying they reserve the right to do what they think is best for softball. Why have any rules? Going to Nashville will result in nothing but possibally more rules. Again, SPA has a way around rules. Lip service, no, as of now I won't be at another SPA national.
Oct. 1, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1004 posts
If you go to Nashville and expect to talk about SPA I think you will be severely disappointed. Nashville is the ISA/SSUSA rules meeting. Doubt there would be any consideration there to what SPA does. Ridge has his own meeting I'm sure his website would have some info at least on last years meeting.
Oct. 1, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
Agreed, I forgot it isn't a summit either. I asked for it to be removed... But players need to voice concerns attend conferenced and or summits when they can and be heard. Just being quite gets nothing... unless the "quietness" is a no entry.
To work around rules, to me, is no rule at all. Akin to NCSSA and the rating "system" used. Numbers not as the others are used, AA>M+ But with no restriction on who you can pu is what sets it apart. I've added and been with teams that were AA teams or low "ranked" numbered teams and added M+ players to fill holes and it works well that way, But it does effect outcomes with the right ones. So the manipulation goes on in various forms.
Every one get hurt.


Oct. 2, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
I've sent Mr. Hooks a very detailed letter outlining the history of our team and asking for his rational in re-rating us. Our coach has asked SSWC for a letter or comment detailing their rational for retating us following Mr. Hooks' action (they promised a letter). At this point, we have had no response from either. Perhaps both are finding out how hard it is to defend an indefensible position. According to the latest issue of Senior Softball News, we have NOT met any criteria for re-rating. How frustrating!
Oct. 6, 2009
Auger
Men's 65
14 posts
It has been close to 4 weeks and nothing from SPA. Who will be the next team to get this kind of treatment from SPA?
Oct. 6, 2009
DRob
34 posts
I don't know if anybody else noticed but SPA has updated their rating of the Indy 60s team......sort of. We are now rated as AAA but they didn't correct the date of the rating. It still shows 3/24/09. Oversight, or just a lame effort to make it look like we were AAA all year? My money is on the latter!
Oct. 6, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
DRob,
I am with you on that one. The #3 key and 9 key are too far apart to me a typo to appear less obvious.
Oct. 8, 2009
DRob
34 posts
taits
We know the date 3/24/09 is not a typo because that was the date they showed for our AA rating. The only question is whether it's due to incompetence or an attempt to mislead somebody checking the ratings!
Oct. 11, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
If The Indy 60's had been rated AAA all year, SPA misled everyone when they accepted their entry fee and slated them to play in the AA tourney in Dalton. Regardless of the reason, all of this is a very transparent attempt to justify an unjust decision. It's unfortunate that SPA allowed a few whiners to influence their decision which has such a lasting affect on our team.
Oct. 18, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
At this point, nothing has been resolved with regard to the re-rating (and probably won't be). The Indy 60's passed every litmus test to compete in the 60+AA division of the Dalton tournament and were denied that opportunity. There will be no acceptable resolution of arbitrary rating and re-rating of teams until all associations prescribe and adhere to a set policy. Anyone see that happening?
Oct. 20, 2009
Ceres
61 posts
A similar ruling was made by Ridge Hooks at the SPA Nationals in 2004 when they were played in Plano Texas. I played for Kelley's a AA team. We finished second to Team Naples, but both times we faced them it was no contest. In fact, every game they played, it was no contest. A few days after the tournament, Ridge declared our team co-champs. He does something when he feels a team is sneaking into lower divisions so they can win. Next season we were a mediocre AAA team and Naples was a major team.
Oct. 20, 2009
DRob
34 posts
Ceres, How about this then. Let's all just send in our team's name, with the required entry fee of course, and let the TD decide who's the champ! Why should we waste our time playing the game if the champions are not going to be decided on the field? Think of all the travel expenses we'd save. (Removing tongue from cheek)

Seriously, I wish I had a dime for every tournament game where we've had our hats handed to us by teams who were ranked a class above us before, during, and after the tournament. Personally, I wouldn't accept a championship handed to me by a TD. But that's just me.

Oct. 21, 2009
Wes
Men's 65
306 posts
This is a long one and it started out
THEY CAN'T DO THAT
Page 44 of the rules
Team Classification
"The SPA reserves the right to classify
or RECLSSIFY a team at any time.
Oct. 21, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
And page 1 of their website states," SPA will not be changing classification criteria for 2009." Which is one to believe?
Oct. 21, 2009
Auger
Men's 65
14 posts
Pg 44 also states "No team will be classified down after Aug 15" When you selectively apply the rules to benefit one team over another,then your organization looses creditablity. SPA has had a good name, now step up do the right thing and let's move on.
Oct. 21, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
The date of the tourney the rating upon entry (AA) and change within it (the Tourney to AAA) and then a book change to reflect that change back dated is something that is basically screwing you by 2 assns.
Not much you can do about it, they will do what they want, so the answer to the Thread Question "They can't do that?" Is: They sure can, they will and there's not much you can do about it.
Choices: go put up with it or say away. Loose- loose situation for all.
Oct. 22, 2009
Ceres
61 posts
Why do all you players take the side of the team which had been reclassified. Did you see any of the games they played or know their capability? It could have been that they really were much too good for 60AA and the SPA President made the correct ruling by making them play 60AAA eventhough they came in under the radar.
Howeven neither I nor any of you have the information to judge. Association Presidents should protect the competion of their associations' championships. These are not your ordinary tournaments.
Oct. 22, 2009
DRob
34 posts
Ceres. I take the side of the team because I'm on the team. Apparently you haven't read the entire thread so I'll try to lay it out for you. A couple of posts have said Indy 60s was rated AA on 3/24/09 because that was the date shown on SPA's rarely-updated website. As a matter of fact, they didn't change that date when they changed our rating which might lead a uninformed person to think we were AAA as of that date. For the record, Indy 60s has never been anything but AA prior to this debacle. I'm 63, have been on the team since I turned 60, and we have always been AA and have never won a tournament under any organization before 2009. This year we won 2 tournaments in AA. One of them was the SS-USA tournament in Lansing, MI. The other was a small SPA tournament in Shelbyville, IN where the 60s were split Gold & Silver. We won the Silver Division after being taken to the "IF" game. Not exactly a dominant performance. We also played the SPA tournament in South Bend, IN where we finished 2nd. We did beat a AAA rated team in pool play at South Bend but they will be very quick to tell you that they were missing several players. We also played the SPA tournament in Columbus, OH where we got spanked and finished mid-pack. We had the same roster in all the SPA tournaments. There were 3 guys in Dalton who were not on the SS-USA Lansing roster but have been on every roster in SPA. They were left off the Lansing roster because they weren't going and we were told we had too many guys on the roster we had submitted. One of them is a good outfielder. The other two play part-time at 1st base and catcher. There was one more difference in our Dalton line up. We were missing two of our regular starting infielders! So..... there you have it. Our team entered as AA, paid to play AA, SPA accepted our money and entered us in AA. When we got hot against teams who were not playing as well as they might have, we got moved up. Ridge said he would meet with the team after we were eliminated but he was conveniently unavailable and sent Layla who not only had no explanation but actually told us we had been rated AAA BEFORE THE TOURNAMENT! Sure! We were rated AAA before the tournament then allowed to play AA pool play! What we feel really happened was that a few teams saw that their chances to win were somewhat diminished and cried to Ridge who simply couldn't take the heat. Although members of the team have talked to Ridge about this several times, we have been told nothing by SPA to make us think otherwise. Rather, attempts to explain their actions seem to vary with each communication. I hope you now have a better understanding of the situation.
Oct. 22, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
Ceres, I guess you put your foot in your mouth...........DRob....good comment..we have been there with SPA before............Now we don't play SPA at all......Now were running into the same thing with Terry and George at SSUSA.......what's a team to do?
Take care.......
Oct. 23, 2009
Ceres
61 posts
DRob, You have some strong points and you should continue your effort to correct this with the SPA President eventhough you've been unsuccessful so far.
Oct. 23, 2009
DRob
34 posts
Thanks Ceres. I personally am done with Ridge Hooks and his "national championship". I have not personally talked with him but others on the team have and may continue. I have absolutely no respect for him and no desire to talk to him. I'll take Momma's advice and say no more about him.
Oct. 28, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Now that our re-rating to AAA is apparently going to remain, does that mean that we'll have the opportunity to play against Major teams such as the (SSUSA) Las Vegas 60's who eliminated us after our re-rating to AAA in Dalton?
Oct. 28, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
lemons,
That one I'd bet on.
Oct. 28, 2009
Ceres
61 posts
Indy 60s maybe if you send this whole column to SPA and to SSUSA (because it might affect your rating with them) noting that many players over a two week period took an interest in your plight and sided with you. All these players feel disappointed because of the ruling and because your team can't even get a hearing with SPA.
Oct. 28, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Thanks Ceres. As you may have noticed, SSUSA re-rated The Indy 60's on the Monday following the debaucle in Dalton. I've noticed on other threads that many seem dissatisfied with the current rating system(s). Too much word of mouth and not enough concrete evidence of play.
Oct. 29, 2009
Corky
Men's 55
444 posts
I started this thread back in September to bring attention to the disparities in the conduct of leadership, of certain associations in the rating and re-rating of teams contrary to THEIR own written standards. I have read the comments over the last few months and tried to reflect on what moved these leaders to make such irresponsible decisions and what could possibly be there reasonings. Could it be the clamoring of the Major+ task force to move more teams up, to give them more teams to beat up on instead of compete with, or the amount of MONEY spent by those teams that registered the complaints that initiated the inappropriate moves?? My suggestion would be to install an "Independent Players Committee" to review the associations decision based on Fact, through an appeal process. Any other thoughts???
Oct. 29, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
Corky:
I like the thought on a committee. BUT, I'd guesstimate that it would only be a sounding board with NO voice that matters just like the M+ task force was.
Getting results for all assn's that would matter would be the main hurdle to go over. They do not share much at all Especially ratings score results and the like.
Gathering the members from where what level & age might also be a deal breaker. Unless ALL were represented in some fashion, far too many would be unhappy, and rightly so.
Let's see, roughly 9 assn's(?), which could easily be only 5, SSUSA\ISA , SPA, ASA ,LVSSA, & SPN (Canada). I know Canadian teams attend often for sure, but no real idea if adding them to the list here is feasible.
Times ages and them ratings within each you have a convention. Add to that mess and start including the masters wanna be seniors guys, there is another added salt shaker worth of flavor to add. There is a potential of about 250 just there with one rep from each assn, age level.... not much would be accomplished ... just like the summit, where it's agreed to meet but disagree on how or any actual solutions.
A start ....

Oct. 29, 2009
Corky
Men's 55
444 posts
Taits:
The committee should be composed of different ages and levels but not necessarily from different associations. They would decide on a case by case situation and the associations would be required to adhere to their findings based on the FACTS presented. With 4 divisions at each age group the number should run no more than 20. (Using the 50 to 70 age groups) AND should represent all geographical areas. Chosen to represent their areas by their peers.
Oct. 29, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
I had to put something in to get you to say what you had in mind. I know the numbers I said were unreasonable. I included the Masters and combined the 70's up.
But getting the recognition and AUTHORITY is the real problem.
Very good in principal.... Thought processes, the means, communications, collection of data, storage of info, shared by whom, what if's, are questions that will need to be addressed and then some.
Assn's Relinquishing Control in this venture to give authority to said committee is the one thing I really feel, won't be given, by virtue of all the past results of their decisions making processes, for the various problems that have come up.
A committee to "boycott or not" any specific "T" would be easier. That does not require Assn
Oct. 30, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Each Association is in fact a business, and I don't think that any would be amenable to being told how to conduct that business by a committee. The plight of ALL senior players and teams who are not "true" AAA, Major, or Major+ seems to be that of putting out a lot of money to attend tournaments with little chance of success or only playing on the local level. It is unfortunate that there is currently no objective way to deal with rating of teams.
Oct. 30, 2009
DRob
34 posts
If the associations had to do business in an open market, they'd all be broke! They know they have a captive market so they have no reason to worry about the quality of the product they deliver. Companies which over-promise and under-deliver usually don't last long.

Which leads me to point out that the letter explaining their re-rating which was promised to Indy 60s by George of SS-USA apparently got lost in the mail!
Oct. 31, 2009
Corky
Men's 55
444 posts
Taits, thanks for the phone call, it was great discussing a possible solution rather than rehashing the sad but true facts that started this whole discussion. "You would think" all associations would embrace an independent committee to take the heat off of them on this controversial topic. They can still make their decisions but rather than taking all the phone calls, emails, and bashing they take on this board, hand it off to the committee and accept their findigs. Agreed the problem is getting them to relinquish or accept the committees decisions.
Oct. 31, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
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Oct. 31, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
hey guys
I'm not losing my mind, yet,
I trying to catch a software glitch
Sorry.
Nov. 1, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
einstein, Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. The circumstances involved in this thread have certainly contributed to it. :>)
Nov. 6, 2009
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
At our hitting club this morning, we discussed next week's Winternational in Ft. Myers. We'll miss it this year due to our re-rating, but good luck to those 60+ AAA teams competing in AA and Major teams competing in AAA.
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