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Discussion: rankings

Posted Discussion
Oct. 7, 2009
barrym
157 posts
rankings
There should be a rule and honored by all senior softball tournament organizations. No matter what, when you are ranked major plus you should not be able under no circumstance play down to major. This in my opionion defeats the purpose. Ive seen this happen all the time.
Oct. 7, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2667 posts
Yes, it happens all the time. I'm playing 60 M+ as well as 50 M.
Do you think I should be able to drop two age level plus down to Major?
The main problem with your idea is you won't get all associations to agree on much of anything.
Oct. 7, 2009
barrym
157 posts
Then why have ratings, You don't even have a clue who is playing major plus or major in the world. Its pretty obvious when u have major plus on your jersey and r playing in a big tournament as a major go figure.
Oct. 7, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2667 posts
It has been discussed here that players should be ranked not teams. If you have 5 players ranked M+ you must play in the M+ division.
I would agree with that.
It would be a headache to administer.
Oct. 7, 2009
grumpy55
Men's 60
102 posts
Your are obviously talking about this Windy City team. They were Major+ when the season started and were rerated to Major later. Should they have bought new uniforms during the season? You must have been on 1 of the teams that got beat by them. Get over it.
Oct. 7, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
I've heard and read that assns consider "some" teams with only 1 M+ on the roster as a team that will be moved up...
Personally, I'd go with if you have 3 M+ players on it for any tourney you play M+.
But yes, a player ranking data base would be ideal, but the assns are not ideal. You can find some player info out there or otherwise known as impact players, but it's across the board. Should be. And I'm not a fan of being labeled either.

barrym: the assn's agree, to not agree, on almost everything that arises players are concerned about imo.
Oct. 7, 2009
barrym
157 posts
grumpy55 you make alot of sense, maybe u otta do your research and get over. Lets se where they play in the world. good luck
Oct. 8, 2009
Doctor J
Men's 50
6 posts
a lot of chatter about windy city...i'm 5'6'' 140lbs and have never hit a home run(over the fence), even with the ridiculous bats and balls that are used! i joined windy city because of great friendships that i have with the players, and the opportunity to play with a group that plays all aspects of the game...hitting, fielding, baserunning. over half of our team never or rarely hits home runs! but because we won tourneys playing by the established rules in major, we were moved up to major plus so that i could stand on the field and watch teams hit 50-60 HR a game! i can't learn to hit home runs...but anyone of any size can learn to base hit! i would favor that anyone who wants to play major be allowed to play major. limit the HR and make the rest outs! it would be a great division and bring back some of the other teams like ours who have put together teams under the rules and been penalized for winning! the powers that be in senior softball do not realize that if they were willing to do this that they would put a great product on the field. they continue to bend to the desires of those who prefer to play home run derby!
Oct. 8, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Doc J,
Making the HR's outs after the limit was a major problem with the vast majority of players on here.
most feel they should be walks\singles, as I do.
But I think the bigger problem is CONSISTENCY for doing any or all of what they do do. That applies to all the assn's.
Oct. 8, 2009
Doctor J
Men's 50
6 posts
a lot of chatter about windy city...i'm 5'6'' 140lbs and have never hit a home run(over the fence), even with the ridiculous bats and balls that are used! i joined windy city because of great friendships that i have with the players, and the opportunity to play with a group that plays all aspects of the game...hitting, fielding, baserunning. over half of our team never or rarely hits home runs! but because we won tourneys playing by the established rules in major, we were moved up to major plus so that i could stand on the field and watch teams hit 50-60 HR a game! i can't learn to hit home runs...but anyone of any size can learn to base hit! i would favor that anyone who wants to play major be allowed to play major. limit the HR and make the rest outs! it would be a great division and bring back some of the other teams like ours who have put together teams under the rules and been penalized for winning! the powers that be in senior softball do not realize that if they were willing to do this that they would put a great product on the field. they continue to bend to the desires of those who prefer to play home run derby!
Oct. 8, 2009
Doctor J
Men's 50
6 posts
if it is a walk or single...players don't have to change their swing. i for one, and i think many others, get no enjoyment out of watching 30-40 balls sail over the fence, even if they are only 1 base at a time. if that's what an individual enjoys, play major plus with unlimited home runs. heck; why not just set up a home run derby division...just like we used to play in the backyard as kids! of course we could go back to wood bats and a ball with a leather cover and a spun yarn core, and have only one division with unlimited home runs. that would eliminate the major risk of injury and make a home run mean something again!
Oct. 8, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Dr J,
That's the way it WAS.. good old days... Not coming back I'm afraid.
Oct. 8, 2009
Brett
Men's 55
239 posts
Doctor J, your team was re-rated from major+ back to major on July 5th. Whether your team likes it or deserves it, you will most likely be automatically bumped back to major+ for having won the ISA worlds and now the LVSSA tournament this past weekend. Unfortunately, that's just the way it works.
Oct. 8, 2009
Doctor J
Men's 50
6 posts
taits & brett, not to beat a dead horse; but we, like others, were rated to major+ because we won under the rules. bumped up to a division with a different set of rules!
as you know senior softball is as good as it gets...as as bad as it can be. i think we have more control than we think. as do certain individuals who are running senior softball! we're not talking about rocket science here. we know that they are influenced too much by the money. what they don't seem to understand is that if they opened up major, or whatever they want to call it, they would have a record number of teams. and what a fun competitive division! forcing teams to play major plus isn't working. we just don't play! they end up with 2-4 teams per tournament, and the same 2 or 3 win. how about a little common sense. do things the right way and it's amazing...the money will take care of itself!
Oct. 8, 2009
barrym
157 posts
I would suggest that there be a cut off date, say half way in the season and after that date your roster not team can be be rated. They either stay the same or be bumbed up from then on and as far as picking up players two is fine. I think the biggest problem is teams don't find out til they get to the tournament as to who was moved up or down. I see money is a big factor but having guidelines is the most importantMaybe its not about winning and it is the money. Regardless windy city team is a good team and congradulations on you wins. good luck in the world
Oct. 8, 2009
Doctor J
Men's 50
6 posts
barrym,
looking back to when i played in what was called the masters divisions in ASA...there were no classifications except for age. 3 HR and then they were outs. everyone who entered played at the same level. proof of age all that was required to play. made it awfully simple!i realize this is almost too simple to work...but what we have now is being made needlessly complicated and unfair!
Oct. 8, 2009
jrhunch
100 posts
dr j you are right you followed the rules and won.now the rules say you have to move up.that is your reward for winning.i agree the rules need to be addressed and somehow logical people cannot come up with a logical answer.your team at least wins in majors.more than you lose and can draw from a larger pool of players.what happens to the teams that win 1 4 team tournie and gets moved up and competes with the same players year in and year out.consider yourself lucky to at least commit the crime before going to the firing squad.congrats on your wins and keep on hitting.your team has always played with class and heart.pace#11
Oct. 8, 2009
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
Doctor J:
Amen X 10!! Although my 50's team, Evolution, didn't win as much as Windy City (we did beat you in a tournament in '07) we were a similar team plagued by the same ridiculous system. We were moved up to 50M+ and then back down twice in 2 years, and then as a lovely parting gift going to the 55's, Evolution was moved back to 50M+ after we disbanded. We never got an objective explanation because one did not exist. (I always thought it was the anti-Evolution coalition at work!LOL)

My point(s)are simple like yours, There is way too much time and energy devoted to the impossible and imprecise task of rating M & M+ teams, as evidenced by the current content of this board. There are countless examples illustrating that team rating is subjective, political, and illogical and creates far more problems than it solves. Doctor J, I too came up through the ASA Masters one-level system and have a ring from the 40's and a runner-up trophy from the 45's (with The Wood as my manager) to show for it. Those events were always well attended and many of us are still playing today. The game did not need "protection" from good teams then and it doesn't need the protection of 4 divisions today. In ASA Masters you played the local Mo's Bar&Grill one game, and then Harrison's from Virginia with Don Clatterbaugh and Monte Tucker the next game, or the Maroadi's machine from Pittsburgh in the 45's who won 5 straight Worlds. The game did not fold because of good competition and like many teams, we kept showing up and improving until we won it all , or at least played in the finals. I was puzzled when I hit the 50's and heard "don't do well in Reno, or don't even go, because you will get "moved up" HUH???

Nobody, or no "scientific" system like T. Hennessey brags about in the most recent newsletter can accurately and objectively rate teams. What rating scale could accurately rate individuals? Why is that much "herding" necessary? Teams like Windy City and Evolution (now de-volved into the Nighthawks)can consistently compete with M+ teams WHEN a run-rule per inning and a cap on homeruns is in place. Home runs should never be outs, but what is wrong with a balanced system that allows more than one type of team to win at the top level? Most M+ teams I talk with would live with a homer cap as long as they are not outs. Combine M & M+ and you will get better-attended competive events with diverse teams. Should the MLB Yankees and Red Sox be rated Major Plus? No, the Tampa Bay Rays or Florida Marlins can get hot and win. Why not eliminate the controversy associated with an over-engineered ranking system and combine the top division? To those who feel they barely compete in Major, let them play AAA, same for AAA that could play AA.

To those that disagree with reducing the number of divisions, remember that we play competitive nationwide tournament softball at the highest level for our age groups. This isn't the local seniors league. Do we really need 4 levels in each age group or 33 different divisions in SSUSA to keep us playing? Are we only playing for the jewelry, and an artificially engineered, guaranteed chance to win? I, for one, play for the chance to compete against the best players in the country in my age group, until I can no longer. As we know from the obituaries we've read this year, that could happen any time. I may not always win, but it sure is fun trying. Same reason I signed up for Little League almost 50 years ago.
JMHO, as always.

Don Newhard
Manager
OLR Nighthawks 55M+
Oct. 8, 2009
jrhunch
100 posts
don you are right on.i suggest that there should be 3 divisions aaa,major that draws players within 75 miles and open teams where you can draw players from anywhere.why should you be forced to play major plus.for my team to play major plus i would have to recruit players from other teams (if possible)other states (if possible)and then release numerous players off my roster.where would the comraderie and loyalty come from.should we set aside our morals to compete in major plus?if my team has to move up i have no choice unless i disband.disbanding is not an option.we will play but most teams have no idea how good the major plus teams are.its hard enough to play the major teams which many of them are allstar teams with players from different cities and different states.my team pace is from the same area and will stay together despite the ridiculous rules.stay safe pace11
Oct. 8, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Don,I hear ya but combing M+ and M will never work.We were a major team last year forced up this year for all the same reasons Windy City got moved up.We didn't win as much as they did.Windy City by far the best Major team over the last three years minus 08.You take the best M team put them in M+ they will not compete without serious roster changes.There is a gap.A large gap.WE have had to play many M teams this year spotting them 5 runs and 5 hrs than outs.It did not equal the playing field,it helped but did not get any of these teams over the top.We have lost three tourneys to the Mavericks this year.Won a couple that they weren't there.Like to play major again more teams less traveling.
While in M we never beat Windy City.Think I got a case.
Oct. 8, 2009
vinniec
Men's 50
18 posts
Don, After attending Las Vegas World's this weekend playing in the ultra competetive Major division I couldn't agree more. What a great tourny, ANY team this weekend could have won...2 of our games were decided by one run,with the winning run on 3rd with 1 out in the open inning in both games,and one game by 2 runs with winning runs on base with 1 out in the open inning. Keep a 5 run-rule per inning cap along with reasonable cap on homeruns and 325' fences,along with the open inning rule then combining Major and Major Plus you might have something. Make the rules competitive for all and one division makes sense. Barry...YOU guys played great this weekend,could of and possibly should of won but WHAT'S up with the Major Plus fuss!!!! Here's hoping Phoenix will supply as much fun to all as Vegas did for us this weekend.

Vinnie #6
WindyCity/DLB Softball
Oct. 8, 2009
barrym
157 posts
I totally agree with the last 4 postmaybe you can rate players and allow teams to have so many m+ and so many m on one team. I don't know all the other areas vegas issa ect would have to go along. Terry Hennessy is a grat person with alot on his plate. I have know terry just a little over 6 months and he to me is fair and only looking to improve senior softball.
Oct. 8, 2009
barrym
157 posts
Good luck to all who have participated in this conversation. I just goes to show you the competivness of us old farts. And good luck to all who are going to pheonix, if its anything like vegas you will all put on a good show. Love you all and stay healthy and be safe.
Oct. 8, 2009
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
Ray: (aka Gekle Builders)Good points as always from you. No system is perfect, and not everyone will be happy with any solution. My experience is that the run-per-inning and HR cap is enough of an equalizer that allows more than one type of team to win in the top division. Windy City is a prime example of this. Under the capped run/HR scenario we played the Mavericks tough over two years, but we would have a tough time hanging in an unlimited HR scenario. With the tight end sized line-ups you trot out we'd likely have a problem with you as well. I just think this approach solves the most amount of problems like going to big events and having no teams to play in your age/division or having to give "stimulus package runs" to other teams because of some subjective rating. Good discussion, thanks Barry for kicking it off.

Don Newhard
Oct. 8, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Agree Don,just don't know how the lower end Major teams would compete or have much fun?I could be way off on this.Just going on what I've seen so far as M+.(freshman year)Although I did see were you mentioned these teams dropping down to AAA.Don do you play with EVO.

Stay Well
Ray
Oct. 8, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Sorry nothing like stateing the obvious.Reading your earlier post and actully comprehending it,I answered my own ? Was EVO. Now OLR Nighthawks 55 played each other twice in Vegas last year correct?

Good Luck in Phoenix
Oct. 9, 2009
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Major-plus and Major can be combined for all the tournaments UNTIL the Worlds. At that time, it is determined what teams will play in the Major-plus worlds and the Major worlds based on their season perfomance. At the tournaments before the Worlds where Major-plus and Major are combined, the teams that are deemed to be playing at a higher level at the time, have to play with a run equalizer. A run equalizer and a limit on HR's are enough to keep teams competitive with each other.

The weaker Major teams would be moved to AAA as mentioned above.
Oct. 9, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
OK, here's a question for all of you......There is a team out of Texas that started the season out 55 AAA,they were moved to Major about July.Then after pleading their case to Terry they were moved back to AAA, now they were moved back down to "AA" as of Sept. 2009.How can a team be moved for AAA TO Major back to AAA to AA, all in a few months ????????
Oct. 9, 2009
ROOSTER10
Men's 60
91 posts
#6
For the same reason a team never won but finished 2 and are rerated.The reason in our case given was that we beat teams by more than 5 runs in placement games etc. Just like the team from Indiana who if they sandbag
they would of stayed in AA.I know they
came to give their best and never considered it.We were told from our appeal to go to 3 more tournamnets and
they will consider a rerate.Heads and Beds as we say.$ talks S walks.
Oct. 9, 2009
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
Ray - yup, that was us last year in Vegas. This year, the younger Evo guys formed LAF 50 M+ and us older dudes moved up to the 55 M+ Nighthawks.

#6 - not sure how it actually happens Personally, it feels like that AFLAC ad with Yogi Berra, hhuuuuhhhh????

Your story is one of many examples that illustrate my belief that SSUSA over-steers the boat when it comes to rankings. You know what happens then, right? Too much wake and seasick passengers. Too many divisions and too much grousing about teams has created an over-reaction from Sacramento. The stated goal is to protect the lower divisions, from what?? The pendulum is swung way too far to the side that continually complains about strong teams and wants to exclude and quarantine competition rather than conquer it on the field. With fewer divisions (three) and less in-season micro-management your example could be avoided. Simplify our simple game, and let's play ball instead of politics and lobbying.

Here's to good health and good luck to both of you in Phoenix, and to everyone else as well.

Don Newhard
Oct. 9, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
There is a lesson in that, seemingly you play to loose... by the 5+ in games in 3 or more tourneys ... Request the re rate...
May never bring home the prize unless you work it right. It's just another game, but a costly process.
Back up with scores where and when. Not really a correct way to be done but that is the way it is. SSB News page 9.
There are better ways I believe, but the major problem is getting results from other assn's that are secretive, a major problem with the summit members.
Oct. 9, 2009
grumpy55
Men's 60
102 posts
Rooster, Same thing happened to us with that 5 run rule. First tourn. of the year last year. It was a joke did not win either. They should be basing rerates over the ts that you play. If your are kicking butt over everyone, then you should probably be bumped.
If you win a Major tournament they should be looking at past scores in other tournaments and where you finished before bumping you. Any team can get hot. If your roster is the same all year the powers to be should look at that also in considering rerates. Someone said the process is flawed and we all know it is except the powers. Enough of my babbling, it does not get anywhere.
Oct. 9, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
grumpy55,I totally agree with you........I talked to Terry and George and got "no where"......ALL THEY CARE ABOUT IS $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$The TD even called and e-mailed them stating we were in the wrong rating..........He said and I "quote".we see how you do in Phoenix......nice thought, lets see 15 players, paying $1000.00 each to go to the World and get our butts kicked...PRICELESS !
Oct. 12, 2009
grumpy55
Men's 60
102 posts
Just to be a smart a**, lets make all divisions unlimited homeruns and the Major + division will have a ton of teams after the homerun hitting teams get moved up and the single-double teams stay down. They can play their 3 or 4 inning games witch is fun to them in the 1 hour time limit and the non homerun teams play 6 or 7 and have more fun for the money we pay.:-)
Oct. 13, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2667 posts
Grumpy55, I would venture to say that a game with unlimited hrs would be quicker than games without hrs. Think about it, 5 swings, 5 hrs, next team bats. Of course you're thinking "unlimited last inning-may last half an hour". That's possible but it's also possible without any hrs.
My point is hrs (with a maximum number of runs per inning rule) make the game quicker, not slower.
Oct. 13, 2009
DoubleL10
Men's 65
834 posts
OR, we could go back to unlimited homeruns and no run limit per inning. We played several games in the 50s in the late-90s that lasted 2.5 hours with scores in the 40s for both teams (Dan Smith v. Sawtre is a good example).
Oct. 13, 2009
DoubleL10
Men's 65
834 posts
Let me point out - before someone misconstrues my feeble attempt at humor - the above post was made SOMEWHAT tongue in cheek!
Oct. 13, 2009
the wood
1086 posts
Grumpy55:
You made a couple of presumptions that may or may not be accurate...
1) that the 'correct teams' will get moved up and the other will stay down... this hasn't been the case in the past if you read the many threads that have been initiated over bump ups... also, just because teams can hit HRs doesn't mean that they want to play against the best teams.
2) You state that the M+ teams 'can play their 3-4 inning games which is fun to them'. What makes you think that 60 minute games are fun to us?
We played closer to 80-90 minutes in our LVSSA games and reached the 7th inning many times.
Should I presume that your division will prefer to play 45 minute games? I would be equally wrong if I did so. We like to play our 7 innings like everyone else... this is one reason why some of the better M+ teams will not go to AZ.
And, finally... not all M+ players think alike... any more than the guys in the other divisions.
BW
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