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Discussion: free defensive substitution

Posted Discussion
Nov. 13, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
free defensive substitution
I got off on the wrong foot
describing this idea platooning
and didn't do it justice as something
that can really help us
and our game.
Basically, everything else we do
stays the same except that
at the beginning or end of any inning
any rostered player can take any position defensively on the field.

This could be implemented
seamlessly immediately-
This would increase member
participation-
Provide well deserved and needed rests
especially in the hot weather-
(haven't we lost enough players
and careers to heat/age related stuff)
Raise the level of play for players
and spectators alike-
Increase revenue for Tournaments
and Associations
across the board
through increased enrollment-
strengthen team chemistry and esprit
due to the ease of getting more to all
players into the game-
Encourage more teams/managers
to want to participate by easing
the tension and burden
of not being able to get guys
in the game.



Nov. 13, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
I understand it can get warm, and seniors aren't the youngest guys around, but this is just SLOW-pitch softball. NOT football or basketball. JUST SLOW-pitch.

Get in shape (this is key for those of you who aren't) become proficient offensively AND defensively, or just accept a limited role within the real rules of how the game should be played.

Good God, how many changes to the fundamental way the game was meant to be played are some of you going to push for. Did you really hate the game that much in the 60s and 70s?

Nov. 13, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4336 posts
Free defensive substitution is one thing, free line up substitution is another all together.
NO
The heat is one reason many teams being 17 players.. another is entry fee cost lowers per person.
Still NO
Nov. 13, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Tough Crowd.........But I agree, leave it alone........except for the one up rule, bring it back as a single........
Nov. 13, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I think this is a tough time
to talk about anything new and
different from some
of the ongoing problems and difficulties
we experience that need to be resolved.
Home run limits, ball/bat combo,
PPR, equalizer HRs and free defensive
substitution is taking it in the shorts
on more than one front.
But I think it would effortlessly
help us a ton in senior ball.
Nov. 13, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
yep its called batting everyone(as senior ball allows),then you can have anyone you want to play defence.
Nov. 13, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Batting everyone can take
a team right out of a game.
As a matter of fact no
serious-in-winning squad should bat more than 10.
Free defensive subbing allows
all players access on defense any/every inning and not just every couple of innings for oftimes, just one swing.
Nov. 13, 2009
Omar Khayyam
988 posts
Why would anyone want unlimited defensive substitution? 1) Injured player can still hit and reach first, but hampered in field. 2) Hot day and outfielders are tired 3) Specialist pitcher has the ability to retire next few guys in batting order 4) Experienced fielder can handle sun in eyes better than faster, but inexperienced fielder.

In all these cases, and possibly some I’ve overlooked, the solution is already at hand as mad dog points out—bat everyone and substitute all you want, anytime you want!

There is another reason for unlimited substitution: a classic all field no hit player who is a detriment at the plate but has a great glove. Play him correctly and he never bats! As a result we will see the big slow guy plant the ball in deep center...the rabbit goes in to run for him...a defensive player goes in to play for him at the end of the inning. Three players, but two of them never bat!

On this option, I am opposed. Play 10 and take your chances, or TRULY give guys on your roster a chance to contribute and bat them all.
Nov. 13, 2009
Dbax
Men's 60
1260 posts
Who would want to be on a team where all they would do was play defense? Let's put this to rest now.
Nov. 14, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Dbax, you have been here long enough to know Joey puts nothing to rest.
Nov. 14, 2009
tinman
Men's 50
75 posts
EINSTEIN,GREAT IDEA!
Nov. 14, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Shouting won't make you sound any smarter, or gump's idea for that matter.
Nov. 14, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I think we've reached an important milestone and turn of event.
Dirty, Gary Sommers, is so recalcitrant
and negative just about all the time
that getting his acknowledgement and
negative treatment has to be considered
positive and being on the right track.
Thanks, Gary.
Keep up the good work.
Now, I'm sure free defensive substitution is a terrific idea
and, as always,
we want, need and deserve
a good bat/ball combo
and don't care what anyone says
or is trying to sell us.
Nov. 14, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
"Now, I'm sure free defensive substitution is a terrific idea"

What kind of a dope says that about their OWN idea?????

gump strikes again. :(
Nov. 14, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4336 posts
We basically have free defensive subs as it is, but free offensive subs is ridiculous & sets the stage for ringers.
I take it as that is what your looking for. Your better than that Joe.

We all know it and that is probably the reason your attempts over the last 3 or more years has gone bust just like this one will.
Screwed up idea, platooning.
imo
Nov. 14, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
yeah right great idea,bring in 10 big boppers to hit,than have 10 rabbits to run for them,then put 10 defensive specalits to play the field. yep great idea.
didn't fly first time you brought it up,not getting off the ground this time either.dumbest idea ever.
Nov. 15, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
(this is the right thread)
Hey Dog,
You joined mad dog for recalcitrance
and contra-indication.
If you don't like it
it's gotta be a good idea
or any idea, for that matter.
Keep up the good work.
Nov. 15, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
maddog, Dirty Gary.
Dirty Gary, Maddog.
It's sure hard to tell the difference anymore.
Nov. 15, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2629 posts
Sorry Joe, I can't agree. I would compare that to playing golf where you only hit every third shot, having someone to hit tee shots, one for approach shots and on to putt.
Nov. 15, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Damn, I sure hope no one in authority reads this. Why would anyone want to change something thats worked so well for so long? If I werent a weak old guy I would still use a wooden bat.
Has winning and losing become so important we want to change our game to the point of no return?
When does everyone get a trophy, when do we stop keeping score or when do we stop trying out for positions?
I play ball because I love it and love comraderie, hell I would play stick ball if thats all there were. But I would never change it either.
As progression goes so does the game. RollerBall anyone?
Nov. 15, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
e4/e6,if they do,they'll realize how bad an idea it is.we already have unlimited CR's which i think is abused.
bruce yep that's what is wanted,but hey we'll have 30 guys on team so we'll have more seniors playing ball,yeah right again,but will be less teams.


oh waa-waa i want to hit the hottest equipment so maybe i can seriously injure someone or maybe kill them.so i can be a hero,but not still get my way paid to seattle.
Nov. 15, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Down goes Rinaldi! Down goes Rinaldi! Down goes Rinaldi!
Nov. 15, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Thanks for the good work
guys and keep your headlights
on the comparison and meaningful contrast between the two of you,
Dirty Dog or Mad Gary
and me, my ideas, values
and concerns.
I can't afford advertising that good.
Thanks, again.

Nov. 15, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Free defensive subbing
won't dilute offensive production
by adding more batters
who aren't as good as the first 10
and slowing down the rhythm and tempo
of the whole line up which is integral
to maximizing offensive production.
You can designate defenders
by inning or game
to spread it around
so as Dbax pointed out
everyone gets to hit.
And isn't this the same idea
as the DH rule in baseball
where the pitcher gets to play
defense but someone else gets to bat
for him.
The idea was good enough for professional baseball.
Hmmmmmmm.
And, Dave,
would I pitch, let's say,
and not bat if it maximized
our team's chances of winning?
You betcha!

I'm not sure you 2 Neanderthals,
Dirty Dog, even get
what I'm talking about
but I'm sure it won't stop you from
soiling us with your valueless,
vapid comments.
You guys aren't unlike a comedy team
of jerks like Beavis and Butthead or
Tom and Jerry who're also great for diversion and comedy relief.
And again thanks for all the help.
Nov. 15, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
yeah your right,ya look the look but can't hold a candle to the real einstien,why don't you just quit while your ahead.
your name calling seems to be your only real means of communicating.
let me see if i get it now,you want 10 guys to hit that are real good hitters,duh of course offensive prodution is not going down,and then next your want some poor chumps to go out there and play D so these great hitters can take shots at them(without them getting to hit back),yeah your a real great teammate.
oh by the way only half of MLB allows a DH not all of it.
like i said before,we have the free in place now,its called you batting all that you want to have play D.guys should not be penalized by some selfish idiot b/c maybe they don't hit hrs every time up,but happen to have a better glove then someone who does.if they wanna play the game,let the slobs learn how to play some D also,not just swing a bat and sit down(b/c we know these are the same ones that get rabbits to run for them).
Nov. 16, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
gump, personally I would not be looking for anyone who advertises my stupidity, but if that is what you desire and appreciate go for it.

gump, the only "soiling" you do is probably now being caused by your advancing years.
Nov. 16, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Right on cue boys.
Keep up the good work.
Nov. 16, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Thanks for finally learning the art of brevity. It is MUCH appreciated!
Nov. 16, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
If, as and when winning is important
to the senior softball experience
it's free defensive substitution
rather than batting as many as you want
that is more efficient.
The more you bat after 10
the less competitive the stature
and performance of any club
for a ton of obvious reasons.
The more you bat after 10, the more
like true rec or picnic or practice your team's effort becomes.
So, if Herm Edwards IS right,
free defensive subbing
is the better way to go.
Gives guys a true rest on/in
the hottest of tournaments
and will raise the level of play
for all and boost team esprit
and get everyone more easily in the game
without driving managers bonkers.
Cue B&B.
Nov. 16, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
what part of BB/SB
Nov. 16, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
OOPS SOMEHOW GOT POSTED BEFORE FINISHING.
what part of BB/SB is not a free substitution sport do you not understand.we are not football,basketball,hockey.you are trying to have your team full of hitters and then let them sit and have 10 guys do the grunt work in the field for no recognition,b/c thats what will happen.the batting hero's will get all the awards,with nothing going to the people who do the real work(defense).only time i've seen a defensive player get anything is if he also had one of the highest avg's on the team.
so if ya want to bat only 10,ya better be sure they can play D,just like MLB does.
by the way did ya get your money for seattle yet.LOL
Nov. 16, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You're not making any sense, Dirty Dog
but it's never stopped you guys before.
Thanks, again helping seniors see
the difference between
the both of you and me.
Keep up the good work.
Free defensive subbing is not my idea
but it's a terrific one
and would help senior softball
seamlessly and immediately
in many important ways not
least of which
it'll help keep seniors
from falling out as they can be rested
more easily during the hot weather.
It's way better than letting teams
bat anyone/everyone.
And it's not even close.
Nov. 16, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
mmm let me see if i have this right,you didn't think of the free sub idea,but yet your the one who introduced it many months ago,so you stole the idea from someone,or you finally realize its bad and you don't want to take the blame for such a stupid idea.which one is it.you also are advocating players to be out of shape so they can't play a real full game,offense and defense.like i said what part of baseball or softball that there is no freebie subbing in and out,you don't understand,you play the field,you hit.i would like to see your poll of players who would only play defense without hitting,i bet that would be a small list of ones who would.
Nov. 16, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Additionally,
lot's of the comments come from
a bias that offense it what
softball is all about.
Yet, it's axiomatic all sports
that offense sells tickets and
defense wins championships.
The Mavericks,
since the arrival of Mickey Hughes
and the 5 man defense
are virtually unbeatable where as
we on the California Rebels and Kelly's
used to beat them consistently
by playing better D.

A monster pitcher,
the 5 man infield,
a speedy outfield,
a fabulous shortstop or third baseman.

I had the privilege of pitching with
Rick Perez playing his last 2 seasons
of softball with Kelly's sports
at 3rd base.
Ricky's outstanding softball career,
like Hollister's Bobby Davis
spanned decades of playing for the Armed Forces Teams.
I can't tell you how many rallies
Ricky's stellar play stopped or killed
firing us up while at the same time
deflating the spirit of our opponents.
Then, their hitters
would try to change their
swings to avoid pulling the ball hard
and made them easier to get out.

The importance of defense cannot be
overstated if,
"You play...to win...the game."
Nov. 17, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Dirty Dog, you're clueless
and mean spirited.
Thanks for the headlights
and keep up the good work.
Nov. 17, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
And Dirty Dog if you care enough to resolve the personal issue you have with me or in fact,
have the stones to talk with me in person
oontact or email me, anytime.
Nov. 17, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
We have established for lots of you
"infidels" out there
that defensive substitution
is actually used in professional baseball
by the entire American League
in the form of the DH.
The line up stays at 9 batters
while the pitcher plays D
but doesn't bat.
Hmmmmm.
Then why not in senior ball where there
are MANY upsides, most significantly,
giving players a break on D
where the hard work is
so we don't injure or lose guys
due to extreme weather and fatigue
as we did this year,
all while maximizing the team's
best chance at winning the game
by keeping the line up at 10
and keeping the overall
level of play up.
Do we really,
"play...to win...the game."
Then free defensive subbing
is the way to go.
Nov. 17, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Lets see what others think. How many of you would be willing to pay your own way only play defense and never bat? Joe I dont believe Rick, Clatter, Mike B, AudieH, just to name a few would even though I cant speak for them. How are you going to hit the ball far and hard if you only play defense no matter what ball or bat you use? I only bring this up because some one said that is what makes it fun.
Nov. 17, 2009
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Whine-stein... I see that you are resorting to attempted intimidation, AGAIN!!!... It hasn't worked in the past, and it will certainly not work against mad dog either!

You have another stupid idea that most people recognize as being stupid... But you will defend it to the end... Keep up the entertainment!
Nov. 17, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Butch, you hit the nail on the head, who wants to pay their own expenses to play half a game. I dont and I dont believe anyone in their RIGHT mind does either.
Einstein, you do stimulate ideas and conversation here and I for one do appreciate it, usually, but there are many thing with Senior Ball that are far more important then winning at any cost.
Nov. 17, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
yep,by the entire american league,mmm thats half of baseball like i said.also its not free sub,once that pitcher is replaced he no longer can come back into the game.there is no back and forth playing as you are trying to propose,guess stupid is as stupid does,gump.

butch i would like to see who would do that myself,i'm pretty sure that would be a very short list.
19 when a mental midget comes after you it can be funny,but like you say it is entertaining.he sounds like the school yard bully,but with nothing to back himself up with.LOL
wonder when he is gonna get his money to go to seattle,LOL.
Nov. 17, 2009
DesertDave
Men's 60
74 posts
Sorry Joe. I have to disagree with you. Our team usually rotates 2 extra outfielders and one infielder throughout the game to try and keep everyone fresh. If that means batting 13 or 14 players, that is what we do most of the time. It's a TEAM game. As for being serious about winning, we are as serious as most. We batted at least 13 in every game in the Worlds last month and didn't lose once. Sorry Joe. no Special players, everyone should have a chance to contribute. My $.02
Nov. 17, 2009
Bob50
Men's 60
239 posts
Sorry Joe, I have to disagree also. Bad idea.
Nov. 17, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4336 posts
Einstein,
Maybe you can petition for what ever team you play for, to be allowed to do this with the 20 players allowed on the roster.
10 will ONLY be allowed to play defense and 10 will ONLY be allowed to play offensively.
Once you start, your stuck either batting or fielding... if caught fudging you forfeit all games played & the rest are exhibition games.
Sounds like you'd have a great tournament.
I think you better play "D", just incase the balls get soft.
Ouch, so much for Spattooning, err platooning.
Nov. 17, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Thanks Dave and Bob, Butch, John
and Scott.
No one has to agree with me.
You guys are top shelf.

Free defensive subbing
would be great for senior ball
but any change comes at real cost
and we have major issues before us
already that need our attention.
Dave, if you bat 13 or 14 and still win championships, you've got a special group and congratulations but that's definitely not the norm.
I won't push the idea beyond this thread till the next time
but remember
the great majority of the guys who play don't talk on the website.
They read, think and talk about
stuff we bring up.

Most of the comments made on this thread
refer to the idea in the extreme.
It would more look like what would happen on a team of 13 or 14 guys
which is more the norm for national tournaments.
The guys playing 'D' at any give time
could/would easily change from inning
to inning and game to game.
No one would have to play just 'D'
all the time.
Resting guys, that is,
giving a player a break
on defense for an inning,
or two would provide
a huge lift for guys playing a lot of games like what happenss
coming from the losers bracket
or having to play 5 or 6 games
on Sunday, often, back to back.

I think free defensive subbing
is a terrific idea,
could be implemented in 5 minutes
effortlessly, without time consumption
or confusion on the field
and will work very well
in senior ball.
And no team would have to use
free defensive subs
if it didn't want to.



Nov. 17, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
"I think free defensive subbing
is a terrific idea"

Once again, an incredibly absurd comment by the Queen of absurdity.
Nov. 17, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Dirty Dog on the prowl, again.
Thanks, again, Gary
for the indicator
I'm on the right track.
Nov. 17, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Dirty Dog,
You talk a good game, Dog
with never anything to back it up.
You're ignorant and gutless.
Call/contact me anytime
and we can take whatever this is
off line and spare the membership
a matter that's obviously personal
to you.
joerinaldi56@yahoo.com.
Nov. 17, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
i guess your right there heiny.i only care about myself,unlike you who has all these great idea's for the betterment of senior softball,yeah right.i guess if i was as stupid as you i would give you all my personal info so you could write vile emails to me,but hey i'm not as stupid as you,so guess what ,you don't get crap.you can use all your vile comments here so everyone can see you,for who you are.someone who doesn't care about nothing but himself.
by the way has anyone sent you ,your money to go to seattle yet.yeah right.
Nov. 18, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Trust me, you don't have to give Joey any information for him to stalk you and write vile, filthy, and vulgar emails. He manages to track that down all on his own.

gump, care to tell us what subject you taught? English? Lord, I hope not.
Nov. 18, 2009
Paco13
364 posts
I am sorry, but I do believe that Einstein point is very valid and could help Senior ball. Just because is available does not mean that every team has to use it. What is wrong for the guys on the bench come in and play couple of innings on defense...the entire team stays fresh. Mr. Einstein, Sir another great idea....Why do they hate on you so much?
Nov. 18, 2009
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Rinaldi (I can't bring myself to call you einstein... too oxymoronish)... Why do want to take disagreements offline??? ... Shouldn't differences of opinion be public?... Besides, apparently you're not very nice in private!
Nov. 18, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Paco, nothing wrong at all with letting "bench" guys play. But why not do it the normal way? Let them play a few innings in the field, and also BAT. If they cannot hit a big ball moving slowly what are they doing there?
Nov. 18, 2009
Paco13
364 posts
Dirty, I guess it all depends on the team make up. I know for fact that for the most part we all like to hit, but I am very certain that almost every team has a player that has a great stick, but can not move as well, so we stick him behind the plate, no offense to catcher...please do not read into it and we also have a great defensive player without a great stick...what is wrong with having the better hitter hit and the better defensive player play defense. Win, win situation. That does not have to be all the time, it just gives the coach more flexibility and everybody gets to play. Again U could have 12-13 great players but only 10 can play the field, unless U decide to hit 12 U have 3 guys seating, with this rule U could sub as needed or as often as U want...keeping everybody fresh and involved in the game. I personally play SS and in good shape but will not mind seating couple of innings every so often. This rule I believe will be most beneficial for the OF, especially after they go after few balls back to back, believe they can use a breather on the next inning or even on that same inning, let them catch their breath and bring them back as needed…Here at VA Beach the league (young guys league) has the rule and I believe it works very well. Just another rule/opinion to masticate on for few days, is up to the TD to decide not us. I just do as I am told, and enjoy doing it. GOD BLESS.
Nov. 18, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Keep up the good work guys.
I know all of you vs. me
still isn't a fair fight
but don't hold it against me,
I'm Einstein, remember.
It's a tough job
and you guys are the sad proof
somebody's gotta do it.
Nov. 18, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4336 posts
#19
As for Einstein not being nice in private or off the field, I'd have to say from all me interactions over the last 12 years or so, have all been friendly.
To side step the "platoon" idea as he wants, I do believe PART of the basics have merit. That being the rule 4.6 Re-entry substitutions with only a one time deal. Especially if it's hot and you have many players or even if only say 12. Players tire in the heat and may need a well deserved rest.
But to ONLY play D or O, no thank you.
I do also know not all re entries that have been done have been all legal, if you go by the rule as written. But most are. Like they say where there is a will, there is a way.
So, do we hit, sit, field today or actually do some of it all.
Nov. 18, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Having everyone bat is basically rec or
gym class ball.
There's nothing wrong with that
but it's not really about competing.
Competing as most of us know
is batting the lowest number
thereby increasing the frequency of the better batters.
Kelly's batted Clatter first
for example to give him the most
number of AB's possible and the math
really works.
Remember when Eddie Feynor,
went around the country playing
everyone's best softball teams
and whooping them almost everytime.
How many guys did he bat?
5?
Well those guys were monster hitters
and though it seemed they'd be at a disadvantage with less
it was really a HUGE advantage.
No pitcher wants to see the top
of the order coming up, AGAIN?
Less on offense is more in tempo
for the batters and sheer performance,
that is of course if
"You play...to win...the game."
Free defensive subbing
as Paco pointed out gives all the right
options for getting guys rested
and "in the game" while not
taking away from the competitiveness
many of us still want and need.
And,
"If winning isn't important
how come they keep score." Billy Martin
Nov. 18, 2009
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
taits...

Happy to hear that your private interactions with rinaldi have been friendly... But his attempts at intimidation on this message board are well-documented and should be a cause for concern.

Yes, players tire playing this game, but being tired is part of the game... Not meaning to offend anyone, but an option such as this may be better served for use in a rec league, not for tournament teams... May the best, and most fit, team win!!!
Nov. 18, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Joe I may be wrong but from my fast pitch days all of Eddie's players both hit and played defense. I cant remember anyone DH for any of his fielders.
Nov. 18, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4336 posts
Bob, I see you point. I have gotten in shall we say heated conversation here and on the field as well. but from my seat I do not really see true harm... imo.
as for the tired guys, I'v played on two teams where they didn't finish it out due to this, that SUCKS.
But if you think about if they played it out, tired and if any had underlying medical problems what may have occured.? Had a as is not re entry player been allowed to go in, perhaps they could have at least given themselves and the other team another good game, or kept a players from dying.
I agree on the most fit usually do better, but I'll take ones safe life over a game win anytime.
I feel His Platoon idea is really either or (D or O) playing. Not a few additional re entry players that actually play both. I'm against platooning.
I was really hoping to play against you guys again. Maybe down the line. Stay safe.
Nov. 18, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Maybe we can get some associations to change the rule where you only have to play 8 guys and that way only bat 8 so the good hitters could hit even more.
Maybe make right or left field dead ball outs. :) Joe just saying using Eddie as an example wasn't the way to get your point across.
Nov. 18, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
I believe that is why you have extra players so you can rotate. I'm sorry but if a guy is too tired to play defense then he is too tired to hit and
if they have underlying medical problems what may happen when he bats and has to run?
Nov. 18, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
19 i most heartedly agree there,if your not fit don't be playing.it should be the best team winning.what he is looking for is a team full of dh'ers(mashing the ball)and then let 10 poor smucks go play D for them and never get to hit.personally i'm still waiting to see the list of who would just play D and not hit.shouldn't take that long to post as i know it would be very small.

butch some very good points in all your posts,and yes eddie did hit also,and by the there was only 4 to the team,pitcher,catcher,1 left side fielder,and 1 right side fielder.our base team played him in 1970,and we actually beat him 5-3.our guys were smart tho and tried to hit the ball away from the fielders.the only real star on the team was eddie himself,the others were avg ball players,maybe slightly above.
Nov. 18, 2009
tattooball
605 posts
You will be able to see the emails sent to me when they are public record. Threatening all the way.
Nov. 18, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
"Keep up the good work guys.
I know all of you vs. me
still isn't a fair fight
but don't hold it against me,
I'm Einstein, remember.
It's a tough job
and you guys are the sad proof
somebody's gotta do it."

You get more pathetic by the post. Most of us would not have thought you could surpass the low standards you have set for yourelf, but you do. ALL the time.

"Having everyone bat is basically rec or gym class ball."

I can't argue with that.

"Kelly's batted Clatter first
for example to give him the most
number of AB's possible and the math
really works."

Not a new concept at all. Steeles, I believe, would do that with Bull Fuhrmann in the 80s.
Nov. 18, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
19 makes a great point. If you don't want to get tired, train and condition yourself. If you don't, then I guess you don't want to be fit enough to play a very simple game that badly.

"Joe just saying using Eddie as an example wasn't the way to get your point across."

Trumpball, if you post them they will get immediately deleted. I have tried that, but for obvious reasons his emails are too filthy for public consumption.

Why should this be any different than any other point he tried to make.

Nov. 18, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4336 posts
Gary,
I'd venture a "guess" he is referring to "Public Record" as a trial record (transcript\"evidence"). Those are real public records, e-mails are not. But either can be only if entered into a\the "trial record".

Do you live in the past? you seem to always bring up the 70-80's. They were good, but that was a "few" years back. I believe you even went to the 60's at one time, crap you were barely in your teens then.
What ever, this is now & we end up playing by what ever is DICTATED to us to play by or with, good, bad or you just don't go & play.
Ought to be getting snow there soon if not already.
Have a good holiday season.
Nov. 18, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
I have to give Joe credit he does throw out ideas for us to think about whether they are good, bad or indifferent.
Nov. 18, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
The next problem to solve with this idea is we would demand a good ball/glove combination. :) I believe if I was only playing defense I would demand an 18" glove so I could reach far and fast.
Nov. 18, 2009
Webbie25
Men's 60
1964 posts
Interesting thread. The on thing I don't see here is where it may need to be applied. I think most triple A, M, and M+ players would like to keep things the way they are. Most of us do the work to stay in shape so we can do it. I personally ride a bicycle many hundreds of miles a year. Maybe this rule could be used in double A and rec leagues for the less competitive players. It does seem like every time a rule is put in for 'some players' good, someone figures a way to abuse the rule. I say leave the rules as they are for the more competitive players.
Thanks.
Mark
Nov. 18, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Butch,
The example I made of Eddie
was to show the value of having
very good hitters coming up again
as soon as possible
demonstrating the superiority of free
defensive subbing to batting everyone
when "you play...to win...the game."
Kevin,
you just can't let it go, can you?
You have a conflict of interests
trying to sell us products AND advice
and you went at me plenty
both on and off the site
which everyone will get to hear, too.


Nov. 18, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
?????????????? do you really read what you throw out here,or anyone else's posts????????
the only reason eddie won as much as he did ,was b/c he was a one of a kind pitcher.it had nothing to do with hitting.he also didn't play the best teams,just like the harlem globetrotters did with the NJ generals.his players he had with him were just avg to slightly above,otherwise they would of been playing with the big boys back then,raybestos brakemen,etc.learn you facts before quoting stuff or using reff's.
paco we have the sub system in place now,its called bat as many as you want.i don't know of many tourney teams that carry that weak of a player that they can't bat,and if he's that bad he's not playing at all.
Nov. 19, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Playing against him and his guys
Dog would be in incredible experience.
Must have been fun.
I saw him play on TV and noticed
they shellacked the team they played
against.
My point was really about Eddie.
It was to point out that the sooner
you turn over the line up
the quicker you get back to
the best hitters on the team.
I wasn't trying to make what I was
saying about Eddie.
How was he to hit against?
Nov. 19, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Getting back to the thread
free defensive subbing
would make our senior softball experience
better and help make our game,
safer, more competitive, more participatory and more fun.
Nov. 19, 2009
Paco13
364 posts
All what I as saying is that teams can benefit from it. Of course I will never agree to just have somebody to play D or just hit, that does not make any sense and I do not believe that there is senior player willing to do it. But most admit will be nice to get a rest, and U all are right if you hit 11/12 there is your free sub. Dead horse as far as I am concerned.
Nov. 19, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Paco,
why is it so hard to think of someone
let's say
just pitching and not hitting.
That's American league baseball.
It would make it easier for ME
to concentrate on just pitching
and if I did that would be better
defensively for my team's chances
of winning competitive games.
Are you saying that a teammate
a true teammate wouldn't offer
not to hit for one game
or 2 (out of 7 or 9 games, let's say)
to give his teammates a true rest/break
during hot fatiguing weather
when they need it the most
and thereby not wanting to
contribute to his team's chance
to win.
Don't we still
"Play...to win...the game?"
You make and made great points
and have added measurably to this discussion and thanks
but free defensive subbing
is better for us
than what we're doing now.
Nov. 19, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joey, you are now trying to equate friggin senior slow-pitch softball to major league baseball????

Someone needs to not hit to be able to concentrate on throwing a ball underhand????

WOW!!!!!
Nov. 20, 2009
Omar Khayyam
988 posts
Dirty, good shot on comparing senior slow-pitch to major league baseball with its elite athletes. But I think einstein has a point that pitching is a bit more demanding than you might think (don't know if you ever pitched...or pitched well).

Haven't you ever seen teams that put in courtesy runners for their pitcher, even if he is as fast as (or faster than) his average teammate? Saves energy.

In the last tournament, I played left field one game and didn't have one ball hit to me the entire game (one grounder got through our shortstop). My only exercise was jogging out each inning and backing up the left centerfielder a couple of times. When I pitch, even in 40 degree weather, I work up a sweat by the second inning. The pitcher is touching the ball every time, backing up throws, fielding pop-ups, etc. Wouldn't say "tiring" but certainly good exercise that drains a bit of energy.

And a good pitcher doesn't just lob the ball over the center of the plate hoping he's got good fielders. A good pitcher is working the height, the angles, the corners, short and deep, and even occasionally trickery like no step, changed windup, etc. And all this while remembering each batter's previous tendency, or for known batters, their weaknesses. Then add in game situation, new fielders with physical challenges, etc. and pitching is a mental workout as well.

Einstein knows this and submits himself as a potential fielding, not batting, pitcher only (although I doubt in reality that you would ever see him pass up a turn at bat!!).

All that said, free defensive substituting is an idea that will not fly, and one that I opposed earlier in this thread. I'm just reinforcing einstein's pitching knowledge gained from his experience.
Nov. 20, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Omar, I do both.

Honestly I have never seen that. There is plenty of rest time in softball, roughly one-half of the game we sit and watch.

And I absolutely understand that pitchers carry more of a mental for sure and perhaps physical burden than many of the other positions. But let's not confuse it with being a quarterback. And those guys don't come out of the game for a "rest".
Nov. 20, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
your saying a quarterback doesn't rest,when was the last time you seen a quarterback play defense.maybe in hi school but thats it.

still free subbing not a good idea.
Nov. 20, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Sure he rests. When his defense is on the field. Just as the pitcher rests when his offense is on the field, so to speak.

But the QB doesn't come out for certain plays, or parts of any. Just as the pitcher doesn't need to come out for parts of plays (i.e. baserunning or batting).

They both are more engaged in the action mentally than the teammates, though the quarterback is MUCH more so and still doesn't need extra or special rest. And for goodness sake he is playing football, NOT slow-pitch softball.
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