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Discussion: Penalty for illegal versus an altered bat

Posted Discussion
Nov. 24, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Penalty for illegal versus an altered bat
Should they be the same? Illegal bat defined as a bat on the banned list. Altered defined as changed in some manner that changes the manufacturing specs.
Nov. 24, 2009
Omar Khayyam
1003 posts
Good point, Lecak. Who hasn't inadvertently brought or borrowed an illegal bat. There are so many lists for so many jurisdictions, that an illegal bat is not always so evident. An altered bat, however, is a deliberate attempt to deceive and cheat. I propose slap on the wrist for using an illegal bat (unless repeat offense at same tourney!) and a severe penalty (banned for a period of time) for someone knowingly using an altered bat (i.e. his own bat).
Nov. 24, 2009
Paco13
374 posts
Most sanctions do have very well defined penalties for both offenses. The problem with altered bats is proving that it is altered, it is expensive and most likely somebody has to protest the bat and put the money at front for the protest...depending on the assn from $100-200, not to many people going to do it. The bat is taken from the player but the game continues...as I said very hard to do and not much interest in proving it. Illegal bat, most likely the player gets suspended for a game or two or the entire tourney depending on the assn and that is all. No expense.
Nov. 24, 2009
Dbax
Men's 60
1294 posts
So let's not beat around the bush. A team in the Winter World's in Vegas this weekend is caught using an original gray Miken and claim ignorance??? How is this possible?
Nov. 24, 2009
softballer
Men's 55
560 posts
heck no ban them or team for5 yrs! no need to cheat with all the bats we have
Nov. 24, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Dbax thanks if I understand this correctly the bat was not painted it was a factory Ultra 1. I would hope that SSUSA takes a very strong stance against both the team and the player. One of the points of altering a bat is to gain ULTRA 1 type performance. The Ultra 1 is probably the most infamous bat in all of softball, even casual participants are aware of this bat.
Nov. 24, 2009
Dbax
Men's 60
1294 posts
Right Joe, it was the original Miken 1. I guess it was not considered altered, only illegal! He should have sold it on EBay and made some big bucks. But then again, maybe that's where he got it. Looked like it was in fairly new condition.
Nov. 24, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
I believe altered bats are "illegal". In a different way, perhaps, but not allowed nonetheless. And what if I unknowingly borrowed an altered bat?

Unless it was painted, how could they have gotten away with using the gray Ultra? No one noticed it the second the batter stepped into the box?????
Nov. 24, 2009
Joncon
289 posts
""" A team in the Winter World's in Vegas this weekend is caught using an original gray Miken and claim ignorance??? How is this possible?"""


There are a lot of ignorant people out there :)




No harm no foul.

The bat is the most recognizable one out there. The outfield could have seen it.

It had to be a simple mistake.....or early onset Alzheimers.
Nov. 24, 2009
gott2play
Men's 55
149 posts
Dbax, clarification..one player caught using the banned bat and his teammates (me being one of them) had no idea. he said he was also unaware, but that's neither here nor there. I broke my U2 in BP Friday and promptly unwrapped my back-up, which was purchased in Phx last year. I also purchased a U2 Maxload this weekend so I take issue with the condemnation of the entire team. I've always played within the rules.

Softballer, so your solution is to ban the entire team? I guess that would fall under some guilty by association rule. I never have, and don't need to "cheat", as you say.

Tony
#22 - Barcelona Bandits
Nov. 24, 2009
softballer
Men's 55
560 posts
gott2play thank for letting us know you don't ! but on the other hand someone knew and talked about it i would guess! i have played your team b4 and never had a problem against your team!
i think we've all know after it came out that is was not to be used!
Nov. 24, 2009
Dbax
Men's 60
1294 posts
Tony, I accept your explanation as to it being just the one player. Very curious though as to this players explanation. Is he new to Senior ball? How long has he gotten away with using this bat? I think he should consider himself very lucky that he and the manager were not suspended for 5 years.
Nov. 24, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
3949 posts
for using a non-assoc bat(not altered)make the penalty the rest of the tourney for the player.
for an altered bat,at least 1 yr suspension,if not longer.i also think the coach might be included in this as he is the controller of the team.also the team should be tossed for that tourney,b/c someone had to know that the bat was altered,players talk.
if you use someone else's bat that is altered,well tuff luck,by your own and you won't have this problem.
Nov. 24, 2009
SSUSA Staff
1306 posts
The Miken Ultra in play was noticed by the opposing team and brought to the attention of the umpire. He called over the T.D., who took the bat to Corky from Miken for an informal 'inspection'. Corky confirmed the bat was a NON-altered original gray Ultra. As such, the "illegal bat" penalty was imposed, and NOT the "altered bat" penalties and procedures. The penalties imposed were as described in Section 3.4(7) of the SSUSA Rule Book at pages 21-22, as follows:

The batter was called out, the on-base runners at the time were returned to the bases they occupied prior to the at-bat in question, and the batter was ejected from that (one) game. The bat was also confiscated by the T.D. and was returned to him after the team's last game of the tournament on Sunday morning.

In the interest of fairness, it should be noted that, at no time, did anyone from the offending team, including the owner of the bat, argue about, or dissent in any way, from the actions taken by the umpire or the T.D. We consider this specific incident 'closed', but reserve the option to re-visit and possibly revise the rules concerning 'illegal bats' at the upcoming rules session of the SSUSA Convention in Nashville next week.
Nov. 24, 2009
gott2play
Men's 55
149 posts
Softballer and Dbax,
We all know now. The player has played for 2 years so I don't know how he would not have known that the bat was banned. I think because it's senior ball he may have thought that everything was in play. Apparently, nobody on the team even noticed. I had never seen him use the bat, always seemed to be using some original Orange Crush. He's not a power guy, in fact; the ball he hit to get tossed was maybe a 150' line drive. As for suspensions, I will cross my fingers that the issue is dead and never surfaces again.
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