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Discussion: Its Unanimous - The Best Senior Softball Players Are in California and Florida

Posted Discussion
Dec. 6, 2009
audieh
Men's 60
242 posts
Its Unanimous - The Best Senior Softball Players Are in California and Florida
I do not understand forcing California and Florida to stand alone in Player Regions unless you are conceding that the best senior softball players are from these two states. A simple check of populations for the states would reveal that this is an injustice, unless the players from these 2 states are just better. Personally, I don't believe it but it is sure going to cause us to revamp our team in Florida and lose a bunch of teammates that have become good friends. So let's look at the facts. The population for California and the adjoining states based on 2008 figures is 49,647,073. Florida and adjoining states is 32,675,984. At first this seems like a lot. But lets look at some facts.

Tennessee and adjoining states has 53,528,893. New York has 51,247,726. Both of which are more than California and way more than Florida. In fact all of the following states are more than Florida: Illinois - 48,093,149. Ohio - 46,851,405. Indiana - 38,660,140 and Texas - 37,219,877.

That makes Florida the 8th rated Player Region by population and California #3. So unless you are conceding that these two states just produce better players, than I think you need to give some logical rationale why this rule was voted on unanimously.

Now granted, California alone has a population of 36,956,666 which will make it still competitive. However, Florida only has 18,328,340 which severely reduces the player pool. In addition, you are killing teams out of Georgia and Alabama that will not be able to pick up players from these two states. as well as Oregon, Nevada, and Arizona which border California.

I am asking the powers to be to re-consider this ruling as on the surface it sure seems bias towards California and especially Florida.

Hopefully, there is something I am missing but it looks like this one is based on too many California and Florida teams winning tournaments. Believe me, there are very strong and competitive teams out of Texas, Michigan, Ohio, Connecticut, etc. Every major region of the country has a great team so why mess this up? ;)

Dec. 6, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
Interesting.
Dec. 6, 2009
Airbosn
Men's 65
322 posts
Audie, Well Said. The rule will hurt 6-8 panhandle teams since we have Bama and Georgia players on our teams. My guess is that we will play SPA during the coming year.
Dec. 6, 2009
Omar Khayyam
1004 posts
I feel sorry for teams from sparsely populated southern Oregon and northern Nevada, who pick up nearby Californians to make a competitive team. Or am I missing the point and it is OK for neighboring teams to pick up players from Florida and California, but just not the other way around?
Dec. 6, 2009
Sisavic
138 posts
FYI. I looked at the top 2 Major+ teams at the SS USA Worlds for the past 5 years for the 50s, 55s, 60s, 65s, 70s. (A total of 50 Champions and Runner ups) Here's where they came from:

Cal 25 (50%)
Fl 5 (10%) (very few play in Worlds)
CO 2 (4%)
No other state had more than one team

Dec. 6, 2009
breeze53
Men's 55
40 posts
This rule needs to be reconsider. Talking to a player today and the word going around is that this rule was put in to benefit the owner of SSUSA and his teams W.E. Ruth out of Washington. I do not see the logic unless someone can explain it " like if I was a 5 yr old ". Alot of teams bordering California will be hurt if not totally destroyed.
Florida teams for the most part will not leave Florida for major tournaments because of the Florida Half Century League. That leaves alot of players looking for teams outside the state for the opportunity to play in the worlds, nationals etc.
Someone help me out here!!!!
Dec. 6, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Audie.
We went through this and
not too long ago with SSUSA
if I'm not mistaken.
Maybe they're testing the water, again
because we in California and Florida tend to win a lot.
SSUSA decided to let it go
a couple of years ago when they were
challenged on it as I recall.

I heard SPA wants to get more involved
in both Florida and California.
California has been thinking hard
about doing it's own thing, too.
Maybe we should have a California/Florida
championship, Audie and see
if any other National title would mean anything without our participation.
I guess the other way of looking at it
is as you say,
to take it as a complement
that we have the best players
and field the best/most teams.
Well then, thanks.
I'm not sure what it all means
and some more discussion, opinions
and ideas could only help me out.

Dec. 6, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Johnny Hose?
Sounds like a good time to get an organization going that would represent us in the sea of other interests
and change that is becoming senior ball.
Doesn't it?
Dec. 6, 2009
Sisavic
138 posts
FYI. I looked at the top 2 Major+ teams at the SS USA Worlds for the past 5 years for the 50s, 55s, 60s, 65s, 70s. (A total of 50 Champions and Runner ups) Here's where they came from:

Cal 25 (50%)
Fl 5 (10%) (very few play in Worlds)
CO 2 (4%)
No other state had more than one team

Dec. 6, 2009
audieh
Men's 60
242 posts
Joe, lets propose, you and I to meet in say St. Louis/Houston/Dallas, etc. and you bring the top 5 teams that play league ball in North California (no pickups) and I will try to get our top 5 teams which would be the top five in the Florida Half Century with no pickups.

We'll play a round robin of 5 games. Florida versus California with 3 games on Friday and 2 on Saturday just for bragging rights.

Man, wouldn't that be a blast! A great tournament against 5 excellent teams we have never seen. I'll talk to the other team managers in Florida and see if we can get everyone in agreement and then we will pick a date, rent the fields and umps and let it rip. Of course, using good balls and bats! Dude, there's the challenge! Like the Hulkster says, "what you gonna do!"
Dec. 7, 2009
Pieman
Men's 50
86 posts
I would think that the climate has something to do with the fact there are so many teams from California and Florida.

Many move or retire to these states.

We do not have as many teams in the North East but some of us still like to play even in the snow.

We will travel to Florida since it is a 2-3 hour flight and take our chances in the Spring and Winter.

We will try to get in swings this Winter and will travel to the TOC and take our chances because we love to play.

Mike Santo
Sweet Construction 55
Dec. 7, 2009
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
Some time ago Bashbro had posted a study on which states had the most players available to them according to the adjoining states rule, and I may be wrong but I thought Pennsylvania was #1. Maybe he could post that again. As far as the best teams,I don't know, but being able to play throughout most of the year helps. Players don't lose interest in the game during the long winters. They stay in playing shape and don't have to gear down in the winter and gear back up in the spring. Most of us in the colder climes would prefer that the TOC be played in November, in the same year that you won the tournament that qualified you to be in the TOC. It's tough for these teams to turn it off throughout Dec. and Jan. and try to go south in Feb. to compete against teams fom warmer climates that have been playing in these months. And maybe that can account for some, but not all, of the reasons why Cali. and Florida teams seem to dominate.
Dec. 7, 2009
Player25
Men's 55
51 posts
It appears the numbers above refer to total population. IMO Florida, California, Texas and Arizona seem to be retirement destinations, thus would appear to have a larger "senior" pool to pull from. If not mistaken, California and Florida were there own regions several years ago. Definitely could be wrong about that. I believe Florida and Texas both have half century leagues with a large number of teams. Other states may also have but I am not aware. In the region I am from in the Midwest, we would be lucky to have 10 teams at any level still playing senior ball. This is the reason IMO. Just my $.02.
Dec. 7, 2009
stick8
1325 posts
To address the topic: Being from Michigan (and of course a bit biased--lol) I wouldn't necessarily argue against the view that Florida and California have the best players. I will point out some of the best players from the midwest and the east coast are every bit as good as anyone else. California and Florida have more of a concentration of the better players.
Dec. 7, 2009
the wood
1096 posts
I am surprised that the rules committee made the move to close the borders of FL and CA. But I'm not shocked as this was rumored to occur 3 years ago when Bill Ruth became the chairman of the Summit. Fortunately, this will only impact those teams wanting to play SSUSA following 11/1/10. I realize that it includes ISA as well but this has been a half baked assn over the past 5 years or so.
It seems to me that the climates and populations of the different regions are of lesser importance than tournament results. As an example, it has been stated that CA won 50% of the SSUSA World events for the past 5 years. That is an incomplete argument because... 1) where were those events held?...(Az, 4 times; WA, 1 time) and 2) what was the % of CA teams that were entered in them? (I don't know the answer to this one). But I do know the make up of the divisions that we played in but won't bore you with it.
If you look at the 60 M+ division alone, there were 3 CA teams in the top 5 of the division so, in theory at least, it shouldn't be a surprise that they won the majority of events. Yet only one of them won a well-attended event this year. A VA team won 2 of the 3 top events (SPA & LVSSA)... of course, this is only our division. The lone win by a CA team was actually a team with only 4 CA players on it and there were 5 teams from CA in the 7 team field.
This is just one more idiotic rule that SSUSA will implement. The result of it will be that good friendships will be put aside if we just sit back and just and buy into their program. This should open the door for SPA and SSWS. who both need to get off their duffs and begin to organize meaningful events out west... again, thinking of it as it relates to us.
SSUSA has done the best job of marketing of its organization and this is why it has the current competitive advantage. It isn't the quality of their overall product as much as the quantity. Like Univ of FL, the top spot 'is theirs to lose' and rules such as this (and several others) will impact their market share. I can state unequivocally that GSF will be looking at all sorts of alternatives for our schedule and predict that we'll probably play in 30% less SSUSA events this year (we're not waiting until 11/1/10). It really comes down to 'them or us'... we could comply with their pencil-neck rules and split our team or we can stay together and play elsewhere. I have a few friends at SSUSA but I have many more on our team.
In my opinion, this will definitely have a negative impact on SSUSA's M+ program but I'm not sure that will be perceived as a 'downside' to them. Over the past 3-4 years, SSUSA has made it easier for us in terms of planning our pre-season schedule... they were quick to post their schedule of events and this became our starting point. No more.
No more playing in cow pastures, no more 'psuedo ring tourneys', no more 3 day events with 1-2 other teams, etc., no more bloated entry fees, etc. Are we angry? No, we have merely reached the point where we just don't want to take it any longer.
BW
Dec. 7, 2009
JLD930
Men's 55
67 posts
It seems logical to me that you should consider participation (number of teams) and the fact that these states (at least Florida and So Cal) can play year round. (you could throw AZ and TX into that mix as well)This combined with the fact that the warmer states often have access to snowbirds from the colder states is another consideration. If you look at the ratings category and sort by state CA has far more participants than any other state. AZ,TX and FL also are heavily represented. Example in the 50's there are 252 rated teams (understand there are some duplicates but I am assuming it is representative). 45% of those teams are from 4 states:

CA - 37
FL - 33
TX - 25
AZ - 17

Other age groups are different. In the 55's these states represent about 40% with CA being at 25% vs 15% in the 50's). In the 60's they account for about 43%.

I personally have no preference one way or the other (and I certainly sympatize with players on existing teams that would have to find new teams and separate from good friends).

That said I can understand why they considered this an issue.

Not trying to stir things up; just another perspective
Dec. 7, 2009
the wood
1096 posts
JLD930:
How many of these teams have players from outside their home state? Doesn't this seem relevant to you?
Snowbirds are usually back in their colder states in the summer. But we have one that did play with us in AZ and he helped us tremendously... he is the exception more than the rule though.
With the new rules, do you think that the number of CA teams will significantly drop?
BW
Dec. 7, 2009
Duke
Men's 60
731 posts
All that I will say about the bordering state issues, is that it will cause many current teams to disband and/or regroup if and when this becomes enforcible. My new 60 team will eventually have players out of California. 3-4 guys are retirng to neighboring states(Arizona, Oregon, and Nevada). If this gets off the ground, maybe we can have a break-in period. In other words, if you are on a team already and stay in the same age level, you do not have to find another team? Just a thought!

Andy Smith,
Double Edge
Dec. 7, 2009
cliff21
Men's 60
6 posts
My question is this: How could this rule possibly have been passed UNAMIOUSLY by seven voting members? Could not even one member be concerned enough and consider how many teams will be broken up/negatively effected by this rule? Exactly how much discussion was there?????
Dec. 7, 2009
JLD930
Men's 55
67 posts
Bob,obviously I do not know how many teams have out of state players however I suspect that a number of the major+ and major teams do. If there are only a few then the rule change should not be a concern anyway.
No, I do not think the nuber of CA teams will drop significantly which I think supports the point that they do not need to draw from out of state.
Again, I really do not care. I enjoy playing against good competition.
I played open ball in the Howards, Campbells Carpet, Ken Sanders etc days etc and enjoy the competition.
Dec. 7, 2009
the wood
1096 posts
Who did you play with back then?
BW
Dec. 7, 2009
PattyMac
96 posts
Those of us who live in the Florida panhandle can't play in the half century as it at least an 8 hour drive to the closest tournament so this really leaves us with a predicament. Most of us up here play on teams that have players from Alabama and Georgia. This really dooms us. I am glad SPA is alive and well. Also anyone who played in pensacola winter nationals need to contact ridge and tell him how much you enjoyed the ball we hit. Great ball, great fun and no one hurt by a hit ball.

Einstein, audie let me know if yall get together for the touramanet as any of those places yall will play will be closer than the half century tournaments.haha

Pat McLellan
Dec. 7, 2009
JLD930
Men's 55
67 posts
Initially I played with Mr. D's out of Seattle but most of the years were with York Barbell (and a year when we merged with County Sports), we played in the National Slowpitch Conference when it was in existence and played in 4 or 5 ASA open worlds.
Dec. 7, 2009
JLD930
Men's 55
67 posts
Initially I played with Mr. D's out of Seattle but most of the years were with York Barbell (and a year when we merged with County Sports), we played in the National Slowpitch Conference when it was in existence and played in 4 or 5 ASA open worlds.
Dec. 7, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2734 posts
JLD930, I have a 1979 NSPC program. I get a kick out of looking though it every couple of years.
PattyMac, this rule will really devistate the Pensacola teams. They used to have a panhandle exemption. Maybe that will happen again.
It sounds like there wasn't much thought process involved with this decision.
I won't have a 60 M+ team to play with in 2011.
Dec. 7, 2009
JLD930
Men's 55
67 posts
Oops, sorry for the double post. Don't know how that happened
Dec. 7, 2009
kbl
Men's 60
532 posts
jld930--did you ever play with jack mcintyre from penna. he played with the barbell back in the 70s. sponsor and owner was mr. hofmann. i play with him on Hamels 65aaa team. very good ball player.

ken
Dec. 7, 2009
the wood
1096 posts
JLD930:
We played in the NSPC as well... Capitol Insulation (North Hollywood, CA).
My point about the CA (or FL) teams with bordering state players is simply this... to state that there are a lot of CA/FL teams that exist or even that there are lot that win is only half of the statement. How many of them that do win are using out-of-state players? Disallowing adjoining state players for us won't equalize the weather for the northern teams. If it aint broke, don't fix it.
Conversely, if it can be shown that the multi-state teams are dominating, I will be be more respectful of the reasoning behind the change.

Incidentally, it was stated by SSUSA that one of the 'big 7' abstained from voting on the HR rule, citing 'conflict of interest'. Wouldn't that be true of the 'bordering state' rule, too? Why was he allowed to vote on something that directly/indirectly impacted his team? I'm fully aware that 6-0 is as conclusive as 7-0 but conflict of interest still exists.
BW
Dec. 7, 2009
JLD930
Men's 55
67 posts
Ken, yes I did play with Jack. He and his wife Sandy are great people. Tell him hello from Jack Davis when you see him.

Bob, yes Capitol Insulation was a very good team. You and Campbells were the only west coast teams we ever played against.

I don't know who was the abstaining vote but I assume it was Bill as he would be the only one with a conflict. I have known him since I was very young (grew up in Kent) so I will abstain comment.

Obviously CA has a lot of good teams and we enjoy playing against them so I will let this rest. Your points are certainly legitimate

Jack
Master Collision
Dec. 7, 2009
JLD930
Men's 55
67 posts
Ken,
I meant Linda not Sandy. That was Denny Mumford's wife if you kow him
Dec. 7, 2009
JLD930
Men's 55
67 posts
Ken,
I meant Linda not Sandy. That was Denny Mumford's wife if you kow him
Dec. 7, 2009
sjuhoops
125 posts
I also do not understand the decision to close cal. and fla. Two 65 yr. old players from las vegas want to play maj+. We had that ppportunity this year to play with a nor-cal team. That team has now disbanded and we will drop down to the 60 maj + this year to play against the best teams in the country. Come 2011 we will no longer be able to play with that cal. team according to the new rules. There are no 60 or 65 maj+ teams in las vegas to play with. There may be a 60 and 65 maj team but they will have played together this whole year and they will have a full roster. In 2011 we will be 67 and no where to play. We would love to continue to play against the best in the country in our own age bracket but with the new rule we wont be able. I believe this new rule also affects 2 60 maj + players from vegas who play with cal teams. Is there any way that we can be grandfathered in as we have been playing together and against one another for the past 15-16 years. This would also go for the Fla teams and others on the borders of those two states. Please reconsider this change as it imho only affects a handful of players.
Thank You

JLD930 When did you play with county sports. I played with them for 11 years including merging with Imlay Realty. X McAndrew and I played together

Hank C.
Dec. 7, 2009
sjuhoops
125 posts
Hey guys. I didnt mean to leave my arizona or Nor-cal friends out. At the Maj+ level this year both 60 and 65 were very competitive. The 65 Fla team won both lvssa and ssusa and there were some very close games competition was great. The 60's as BW stated turn2 won 2 big ones, GSF, MTC and Old A's won one. Again the best playing against the best. Whats the problem?
Thanks
Hank
Dec. 7, 2009
JLD930
Men's 55
67 posts
Hank,
I don't even remember the year (mid 70's). John Divide and Ricky Leek played with us and the next year York and County Sports combined. When I played with Mr. D's we played CS the first game in the World's in Jacksonville and were fortunate to beat you that time. Doc L was not a happy camper as CS definitely had the better team
Jack
Dec. 7, 2009
JLD930
Men's 55
67 posts
ps: Jim Galloway was playing 3rd when we played CS in Jax. Amazingly I believe he popped up to the infield for the last out of the game
Dec. 7, 2009
JLD930
Men's 55
67 posts
pss: Actually I think it was York and Ken Sanders that merged (after I left York) but John and Ricky did play for us. It is hell to get old and senile
Dec. 8, 2009
audieh
Men's 60
242 posts
Einstein - Do you accept the challenge of trying to put together a tournament of the top 5 in the NorCal against the top 5 in the Florida HC somewhere in the central portion of the country?
Dec. 8, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Yes, Audie.
Let's talk more about it and some other important stuff as soon as possible.
Email me at joerinaldi56@yahoo.com.
Thanks.
Dec. 8, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Yes, Audie.
Let's talk more about it and some other important stuff as soon as possible.
Email me at joerinaldi56@yahoo.com.
Thanks.
Dec. 8, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
And if as SSUSA has more than suggested
we have the best players in the country
this would be the most representative
true national championship of the year.
Exciting.
Dec. 8, 2009
jrhunch
103 posts
lets play a tournie where all the players have to be from the same city.that would be a true test.i know our team pace will play .i know the best players in numbers are from florida and cal.this is a fact and everyone knows it.i have not played many if any teams that are major and major plus that are from the same city.this is a major problem when teams are forced to move up.teams that are not from the sun states are limited on the amount and quality of the players they need to add to compete against the powerhouses.whereas the sun states just reload from players within and touching state.not complaining because we choose to keep our players and recruit from within but we really dont have any choice.as it is rochester new york has at least 6 teams playing in the senior circuit without picking up any players from outside the city.i wish all cities competed instead of states then we would see a true champion and would in my opinion have less confusion and conflicts.when you choose to recriut players from all over to create a superteam you automatically are cutting down your competition.there will be less and less high caliber teams because all the high caliber players are on the same teams.less teams will be entered in a tournie and then everyone says where are the teams?why doesnt anyone want to play us?if you have a 15 man roster and are a major major plus team and out of these 15 players you took 3 players from 5 different areas that could affect the areas you took these players from.teams can disband or drop down a level because of this.some areas need to pickup players to be able to field a team from their area but for the most part in major and major plus players are picked up to become better.this is fine but lets not complain when noone plays us.happy holidays pace#11
Dec. 9, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
855 posts
Its almost like SSUSA wants to break up teams in Ca & Fl. Do they have a long range plan of some kind?
I cant believe SSUSA didnt think this thing thru and project what problems might come from it. But then again............
Dec. 9, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
It is great to see Jim Galloway's name in a post on this board. No offense to Meade or Macenko, of course a different era, but for my money the very best ever.
Dec. 9, 2009
Garocket
Men's 55
160 posts
I think most players are looking at this the wrong way.
Florida abd California both have many good players some even great. However because of the weather lots of other states do not have the nice weather or nowhere near the number of Senior players. Some states like Georgia and Alabama only have a few selected teams of Seniors players. Florida has hundrerds of seniors teams Georgia in the meantime has very few and even fewer that play on a National level.
If 2-3 Florida teams come into Georgia or Alabama and pick up 8-10 of the very best players that leaves these bordering states extremly low on top notch players.

Therefore they will not even try to build teams to play in tournaments local or National level tournaments.
This new rule will allow some of the smaller populated states to keep there upper players and might decide to give the tournament scene a try.

I think this is a great rule but could also look at a few other states like Arizona and Texas large populations with lots of Senior players
Dec. 9, 2009
the wood
1096 posts
Garocket:
Horse puckey!
This rule change will not impact the weather. There will still be a lot of CA and FL teams... this will have a minimal effect on the number of teams, number of players from either location...
Our personal gripe has zero to do with how competitive GSF will be or not... it has to do with relationships... we were every bit as competitive before we began having AZ players on our roster...
Opening the borders for CA (extending to NV & AZ) will not provide us with better weather.
Think about it, we only have 4-5 players from CA on the team... we just want to continue to play with our friends from AZ, UT & NV.
Using the point you made about FL/GA, couldn't GA teams use FL players as well?
Which CA/Fl based teams have dominated the ranks (limit this to teams using adjoining state players)? The Mavericks? Good choice... but they only had one out of state player as it relates to SSUSA... and he moved from CA late in the season, after living in CA most of his life (at least the past 30 years that I know of). Further, they have officially disbanded.
The best 60 team over the past 3 years comes from VA. How could this possibly be true given that their territory includes VA and all of the states adjacent to it. Would you say that they are in the Sun Belt? PA, MD, TN, NC, WV, KY, etc. I was born in TN so I am well aware of its winter-spring weather.
The best 55 team is in Nor Cal and used 1 out of state guy that had moved to Reno via a work transfer. Their weather isn't like what we experience in So Cal, not by a longshot. Again, how could they have done so well?
I do not buy into the 'weather conspiracy' and if teams want to rationalize that this is why they haven't reached the upper level, more power to them. So here are solid examples for everyone to witness... the best teams from the 50, 55 and 60 levels.
BW
Dec. 9, 2009
Conman
Men's 50
72 posts
Audie, how about a "home and home series? Maybe at North Collier County (325 ft fences) in Naples and a nice big park in California? I would
hope the other FHC teams would join in.

Or how about if we get every Major and Major Plus team, or any team wishing to play, to commit to a 3 day tournament in the middle
of the U.S. on the 4th of July weekend. Could make it the biggest senior tournament in a long while. Just like the old days with Open tournaments,
one set of rules and any team, regardless of class could enter. Would truly have a national Senior champion. Hey I can dream can't I?

Conman
Dec. 9, 2009
audieh
Men's 60
242 posts
Conman, that would work. We'll see what develops. Here is another thought though. Do you realize that no Florida College has ever won a national hockey tournament that I am aware of. Therefore, in this politically correct gone a muck world, I am proposing, in the name of fair play, that all southern colleges should be considered as one school and our all star team should be allowed to play against Michigan, Minnesota, etc. in the college hockey national championship.

Also since I do not recall any colleges in the mid west winning any of the national college surfing championships we consider all states that do not touch an ocean or great lake as one college so that they have a fair chance to win a championship.

On a serious note, yes the California teams win the highest percentage of tournaments. They have more teams and most of the tournaments are closer to them then others. That's cool. My desire is to put a teams or teams together that can beat them. There is no animosity, this is competition. I am not going to cry and advocate legislation to limit them. I am going to try to improve myself so that I can compete. Otherwise your victory is nothing but a hollow win.

I guess if the powers to be in softball were running the college football scene they would legislate against the southern teams which tend to dominate and restrict their scholarships so that the rest of the country could compete.

Hey just my thoughts and I am still smiling! :)
Dec. 10, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Go get 'em, Woody.
Team bonding and chemistry are very real
and very important to almost all teams.
You can call that a majority opinion
and a move like SSUSA has made
seems arbitrary and cold to the sense
that guys who've played together for years and want to keep playing together
were not of major importance to
"the committee".
Don't kill the messengers,
Dave and Terry.
You guys need to see your decisions
as they are and
as lots of us see them
if only for a second or two
to get where we're coming from.

Dec. 10, 2009
the wood
1096 posts
AudieH:
Along those same lines... maybe the guys that want to blame their lack of success on the weather should have been available to counsel certain college baseball teams from competing at the D1 level. Such as Creighton, Wichita State, Michigan, Oklahoma, Maine, North Carolina, Oregon State... to name a few. Those are not high on the winter vacation list.
The thing that should not go unnoticed within this matter is that this rule (closing CA & FL) is that the vote went 7-0. This obviously implies that Bill Ruth voted even though he clearly has a conflict of interest (he has 55, 60 and 65 teams)... and it means that no one opposed him... not a whole bunch different than 2 years ago when they announced their first major rule changes... ownership has its privileges indeed.

Einstein:
I'm not angry at Dave or Terry... I'm just tired of them (SSUSA) cutting 12" off the bottom of the blanket and then sewing it to the top and trying to sell us a longer blanket.
If my issue was about competitiveness alone I'd advocate merging the CA M+ teams. This would do three things... it would make a stronger team and it would dissipate the M+ ranks... it would move some M+ guys down into other levels. These folks that want to 'average out the weather' fail to consider that CA & FL have more than 1 M+ team in different divisions. They apparently also fail to consider areas such as NV. They only have about 15 M+ guys total in the M+ program (this is over 4 age levels, not 15 in each age group). What will this do to them?
BW
Dec. 10, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
Let's see the title of this message was "THE BEST SENIOR SOFTBALL PLAYERS ARE IN CA. AND FLORIDA"

LET'S SEE "WINTER WORLD CHAMPIONS IN VEGAS"

50 AA RELENTLESS FROM "AUSTIN,TEXAS"
55 AA CLASSICS FROM "AUSTIN,TEXAS"
60 AA TANEL360/BUD LIGHT OF "AUSTIN"

Something doesn't add up...........
Dec. 10, 2009
Reggie44
Men's 50
34 posts
#6 To add to your point, the Colorado Mudhens beat a good Morgan Kegan team out of Florida for the USA National Championship in the 50 Major's.
Dec. 10, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
Reggie44,
congradulations on the win,like I said,something doesn't add up.........
good luck in 2010.
Dec. 10, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
855 posts
How will this new rule affect the AA, AAA, or even the Major division of SSUSA. Does anyone have an opinion on this?
For the most part what I am reading is from Major+ players.
Dec. 10, 2009
TGIII
Men's 60
97 posts
E4/E6.....I have never played in the Major+ division so my opinion is strictly based on the Major and AAA divisions. I live in Southern California and the teams that I play with are regionally based. The majority of the teams are San Diego County based with a sprinkling of players from Orange, Riverside, San Bernardino, and Los Angeles Counties. Players on our teams come from all walks of life and are usually recommended by other senior softball players in the area. Most of the players come from the senior softball recreation leagues and with the AA, AAA, and Major classifications, there is usually a team that fits their particular skill level. Your observation appears to be accurate that the majority of the comments are from Major+ players. I would suspect that recreation softball is widely played throughout the country and that there are a lot of players that can and do play senior softball. Unfortunately there are only a few players that can compete at the Major+ level. So the rule appears to be fine if you are forming a teams in the AA, AAA, and Major division. As far as the best players (Major+) they should have the opportunity to play on the best teams without geographical restrictions or boundaries.
Dec. 10, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
855 posts
TGill,
I agree with you, the Major+ should have open borders nation wide, maybe even a draft system. But then the team with the most money (the Yankees come to mind) would buy, excuse me, draft the better players. imo

Dec. 10, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
3958 posts
lot of good arguements here.like the city one,but thought that's what the AA was for,last that i saw players had to be within 75 miles of the coach,maybe its been changed.

the idea of a middle of the contry tourney for M+ is good,also,but why stop there.lets include 2 more div's maybe(comp and rec).
now for the weather,the northern states do have problems with it,not fun to be out playing in temps lower than 40 degrees(just done it this past weekend with the kids,still thawing out.and cold not be good for old bones.
on the TOC why not in nov,sounds like a natural there,then teams would still have thier rosters intact also.ssusa could have their winters in dec or maybe jan,as these tourneys are usaully for adding your new players for the next yr,don't need to have them 3-4 weeks after worlds..
Dec. 11, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2734 posts
Bob, if I remember correctly, ISA had residency rules like you referred.

Managers should include ideas like Bob's when they reply to the survey emailed by SSUSA this week.
Dec. 11, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
I just looked at World Champinships from this past October in the 50,55&60 age group and 54 of the 185 teams which is a tad under 30% and 2 out of 12 winners (17%)were from CA,like #6 said something don't add up. 4 winners were from AZ who may have some players from CA but still I don't understand why this is being changed. Also in the 60 M+ 5 out of 7 teams and in 50 M+ 5 of 10 teams were from CA, so in the 2 they won 59% of teams were from CA.
Stands to reason that most winners at TOC will be from FL because they will have the most teams and have a edge on northern teans due that its in Feburary,but they should not be punished for this.
Dec. 11, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
I'm curious from reading this thread when they changed the rules a few years ago and opened Ca. and Fla. how many of those teams became NV,Az., Ala., Ga. teams to even expand the states they could pick-up players from?

One Kelly Sports comes to mind and I'm sure there are others. Any statistics
on this?
Dec. 11, 2009
the wood
1096 posts
GSF fits into the category of teams whose home state changed. We were always a CA team until we became a 60 team. We merged with Grimes Trucking 60 guys and with Kidz 4ever's guys, this put 9 guys on our roster that reside in AZ, which automatically made us an AZ team. It wasn't contrived... i.e. we didn't meticulously add enough AZ teams in order change our home state designation. This enabled us to add one UT player who had no other M+ team to play for... he was a part of Kidz 4ever previously.
To obtain a broader answer you'd need to look at the M+ teams because using out of state players doesn't occur as much in the M, AAA & AA teams. They are more inclined to play with local teams... generally speaking.
BW
Dec. 11, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Thanks Bob,

Just trying to figure out why they may have done this because I sure as hell don't believe in the cold weather theory or some of the other reasons given on this post.

Butch
Dec. 11, 2009
the wood
1096 posts
Butch:
Like JohnBob stated, the 'cold weather theory' is a bona fide factor for the TOC, which is in February. But it isn't for the events that occur in the summer and early fall. Howard's used to take the winters off and their early spring performance was less than sterling (30 + years ago). But trying to beat them in August and September was a totally different task.
No this change isn't about 'evening out the weather'... before the dots are connected, the facts are that one of the SSUSA principals has 3 M+ teams and is based in WA. The CA/AZ & FL teams that do use bordering state guys would be, in theory, compromised and this works for him. If this reduces the M+ ranks, so be it. They had the M+ TF in 2008 and then it was later 'vetoed' before the 2009 season. The Ruth Realty 60 team went from M+ to M before going to AZ in Oct 2008 and 'ran the table' in the M division. The snow bird names were also removed from the web site... is this related? I do not know but Ruth teams do have some.
Now perhaps some of these 'dots' are coincidental... you have to draw your own conclusions.., as Dylan said, 'you don't need to be a weather man to know which way the wind blows'... Einstein has also said this but nearly as eloquently... :-)
BW
Dec. 11, 2009
turn2
486 posts
I say get rid of the snow bird rule and let all major plus teams be able to pick up 1 out of are player.
Now my team will have the same advantage that some of the other teams have with there snow bird. Also, there is no way to know who is legit or not.
Vegas did this and now they allow the m+ teams to pick up 2 out of are players. Now my team has the same advantage as the other teams.
This is all I want is for EVERYONE to play by the same rules and not let SOME teams get SPECIAL treatment.
Just a thought
Donnie
Dec. 11, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
As I stated in another post ss/usa is going to consider JohnBob idea when their present contracts expire with these cities in a couple of years or so. Right now and the short future they are locked in.
At least that is what I have heard.
Dec. 11, 2009
jrhunch
103 posts
wood every major team we have played against this year have players from more than 2 states and even canada.3 teams we played more than once had players from more than 3 states and 6-7 different cities.most teams we played never meet until the weekend.we dont recriut players outside our area because we choose friendship first.we moved up in 2006 and 4 other teams did also when we played them they had 5-6 new starters plus the regulars from the previous year.we got killed.these teams were warm weather teams and used touching state players.all legal and no problem .the problem with ny state and other northern states is because of the limited weather many people choose to do other things with their time.they only can golf,camp,boat during the same time as softball.therefore our recruitment is limited.other than sweet construction and tnt i havent played against 1 team from our touching state in over 4 yrs.excluding rochester teams.thus our pool of players to choose from are limited.thats the real issue with the weather.we play anyone and everyone but the cards will always be stacked against a local team when they have to move up.not too many teams in major are from the same city.not complaining like to play too much and like the fact when we win it is a total team effort since everyone plays.i have been to many tournies where we have been called sandbaggers etc but i stand proud of the fact they we are a true local team.
Dec. 12, 2009
the wood
1096 posts
JRHunch:
With all due respect, it would be a lot easier to read your post if you included capital letters and spacing. But I gather that the gist of your message (after reading it a couple of times) is that you play in the major division and most of the teams that you play use players from adjoining states.
OK. But are they CA & FL teams that are mostly using adjoining state players or teams from other areas?
You did state that, while you know that you could draw from other states, you choose to stay local. That's noble but does this mean that other teams should do exactly as you have done?
I'm not real sure of what it is that you're trying to say.
It sounds as though there are several reasons why your team cannot be competitive... if I did read it correctly.
Perhaps when SSUSA completes its detailed study they will change the regions in such a way as to make you and teams like you better off. If so, I'd suggest that you not play in other assns because you'll run into that same road block that you're now facing... only worse. By the way, to get a clearer picture of your dilemma, what state do you live in?
Also, have you ever attempted to be re-ranked? SSUSA does have an appeal process. It sounds to me that your biggest problem is that your team is a fish out of water... a group of local friends competing in the major division.
Will closing the CA & FL borders really help your team? Would I be incorrect if I guessed that your team stays pretty much in its region and doesn't travel to where the CA & FL teams play?
BW
Dec. 12, 2009
jrhunch
103 posts
Wood,sorry for the confusion.We are a major team from new york state.we don't need to be reranked because we are winning more than we lose.I was just pointing out that the problem with the weather is that we have less players to draw from even though our states population is large.As for florida and california teams that we played against ,all of them were an all-star squad from different cities and touching states.I just responded to your comment about the weather and also that the problem with touching states was basically a major plus problem.I don't disagree with anything you said.The warm weather states have more players to draw from because there are more players playing.there are more leagues and more tournies in these states.We in the north have to travel to play all out tournies,very seldom do i see a cal.or a fla.team unless it is in or near their backyard.We played in the following worlds:issa(VA),usssa(CT),lvssa,spa(GA)&asa(NC).People on this thread are complaining about losing friends because they can no longer play because of this new rule, how about the few teams that want to keep their players(local)but as a result will have a problem when moved up?We would have to get rid of our friends and add people we don't know(if we can find them) to try to compete in major plus.The major plus teams chose to pickup players from touching states and try to become a super team and now are asked to drop these players,my team on the other hand has not picked up players but are asked to drop players and then pickup players to compete.There is too much politics in senior softball,I say post the tournies and see who shows up.I am for more playing and less politics.Sorry for the rant Wood,keep hitting and stay safe.
Dec. 12, 2009
jrhunch
103 posts
Wood,just to be clear, i think you should be able to have anybody you want on your roster.i believe in open borders.
Dec. 12, 2009
the wood
1096 posts
JRHunch:
Thanks for the clarification. I agree with your point that the new geography is essentially a M+ problem. And I understand the pickle that your team is in... given a choice of adding new players to be more competitive or staying with your friends, I'd pick the latter. After all, how many softball innings do any of us have left?
I do disagree with the totally open borders because, in the past, this has reduced the teams to less than a handful.
In reality, we just want to continue playing with our friends... many of them just happen to be east of CA. We will just have to do so in a different assn (after this next season)
BW
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