Message board »Message Board home »Sign-in or register to get started
Online now: 6 members: Dbax, JohnO28, Omrosoftball, Rhino Pabst, TABLE SETTER 11, bbigham2; 126 anonymousDiscussion: No change in the balls for SSUSA for 2010
| Posted | Discussion |
| Dec. 12, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | No change in the balls for SSUSA for 2010 I was assured by SSUSA that the ball specs for 2010 will not be changed from the specs used for this year, 44x375 Stote ball. Thanks, Dave and Terry, for keeping a standard we senior softball players care very much about. Teams will now be able to make plans more securely about the coming year and which tournaments to attend. |
| Dec. 13, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | I'm making another comment because this is really important to all of us in the senior softball community, going forward. It means we are being listened to when SSUSA says they won't go below the present bat ball standards we have experienced with them and that is the Trump Stote 44x375 ball and senior approved bats. It means our investments in equipment to date are being respected and protected at least for now. It means they're actually "getting us" to some degree and the game we love to play. These are good signs and worth noting and praise given all the stuff flying around these days. |
| Dec. 13, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | On the subject of pitcher safety it is my view and the view of almost all the players I play with and against that when HR's are outs, like in the 40 and over game that balls will go through the middle much more. Leave HR's as walks and almost all of bullets that would have gone through the middle, won't. The unwritten rule of "not" ripping the pitcher will be activated, enforced by US, the players, and prevail. I don't like making protective equipment mandatory but in order to keep the ball/bat combo lively which is more important to me and our game, I would consider it an option. So, I think if we stay with SSUSA/LVSSA grade bat/ball combo, leave the HR's as singles and make at least masks and maybe shin guards mandatory to cover unintentional bullets that might go through the box this might satisfy most to all our present day, major concerns without jeopardizing the fun and liveliness of the game most of us love to play. Also, that could set up a pitching DH so the pitcher doesn't eat up all the time like they do now putting their stuff on and delaying the game when they've been on base or up at the plate. That could also back door free defensive subbing which really could find a place in competitive senior ball. |
| Dec. 13, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | As I said before, they are going to use the same ball as last year. You just recieved a bad rumor. :) |
| Dec. 13, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Enough about bats , balls, delaying games because of having to get redressed. Maybe we should be like hockey and have a pitcher all geared up in case the original pitcher is on base, kinda like pulling the goalie! Joe I'm sorry but if you were to do a study I would bet you a new Miken that most pitchers get hit when there are still home runs left. Just say what you mean you dont like home runs being outs. We had our pitcher either hit or just missed several times last year with home runs left and the comment was "my power is to center and I just missed it". |
| Dec. 13, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | As I see it in SS/USA we are going to use senior bats Trump Stote 44/375 ball period. Mandatory equipment for the pitcher is a no. Optional yes. Joe this is not a sport where people get paid, so I dont beleive that there are a lot of pitchers around that dont want to hit. Here is one you havent thought of yet, every team must have 14 players and every one has to play at least 3 innings in the field and bat at least once. Hope this helps. What do you think Mike B. you want to come and pitch for me but I'll get somebody to hit for you. :) |
| Dec. 13, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | You and I, Butch, experience a disconnect that I'm grateful the senior community doesn't realize with SSUSA/LVSSA about the importance of the bat/ball combo. Also, we are equally disconnected about what happens on teams when HR's are outs. Again, when HR's are outs it forces open the middle to the most competitive players to ensure they don't hurt their team's chance of winning by "using up" home runs. When home runs are precious the best, most powerful hitters don't resist using the middle of the field which is often the best/easiest way to get on base. When HR's are not outs hitters can take hard, confident, and full swings and not worry about hurting their teams chances of winning and an unwritten rule of "staying off the pitcher" is active and enforced by us, the players. I'm comfortable showing these well defined differences between how you and I see the senior game being played and let members of the senior softball community figure out for themselves what's really going on in and around our sport. |
| Dec. 13, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | well there ya go again joe,good hitters stay out of the middle b/c hrs are left,don't think so.if they are that good they should be able to do it when hrs are gone.when you are taking that full swing you are more suspect of going middle as you are not looking to control your swing but just blast away.i have never ,ever seen having hrs left elimanate the middle.players are going middle regardless of hrs avail to them.hell i have even seen pitchers get hit in hr derby's(when no screen avail)when thats all they are trying to hit,mistakes happen when you are going for the big swing.a more controlled swing gets you your direction and should be keeping you out of the middle. so for the middle not being hit with hrs left,i have to throw the BS flag on that. |
| Dec. 13, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Joe, You are right. You beleive one way and I another. I must have missed your response on the new Miken bat bet. I believe you use a bat, ball, and glove to play our game. You think you just need a bat and ball, some one else can use the glove(free defensive subbing) Some of our differences are you want DH for pitcher I don't, You want home run derby I don't. You want hotter balls, I say Trump Stote 44/375 is hot enough. You say bat and ball combo is more important to you than safety of pitcher and I don't think so. I understand that very few games reached the home run limit last year that is why I don't think you want to take my bet. Now I'm very comfortable showing the softball community our differences. Did I miss anything? |
| Dec. 13, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Joe, You don't need to tell me what happens when HR is out. I have been playing many years where there were home run limits such as Major and A in younger years, 35& over, 40& over, 45& over. Guess what they had home run limits and no serious injuries because of it. I have been hit, have hit pitchers, seen pitchers get hit a lot more when there were still home runs left. |
| Dec. 13, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Of course, Butch because guys were saving the home runs to use, if necessary, later in the game. When you make home runs outs, right from the beginning homers are precious and guys will take the middle who would NEVER do so to to keep from using them up. HR hitters are told "no home runs unless there's at least 2 guys on". So pitchers WILL get hit at/through more with home runs still left on the board from the first inning on because more innings will be played in the "homers as precious" condition. "Save the homers till the end." is often heard in the dugout. When HR's are made outs, Butch more hitters will take the middle by a great measure all through the game then when home runs are walks. Are you still saying that from your experience that this isn't true? |
| Dec. 13, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Joe, I don't agree. It has more to do with location of the pitch and the way the defense is set.SS playing 5-6 hole of course middle 2nd playing 3-4 hole of course middle. Are you telling me if SS is standing 2 steps from 2nd and 2nd baseman is two steps from 2nd, outfield shading middle the hitter is still going middle to save home run. Pitcher throw inside with above defense they are going middle no way will they do that. Five man infield go middle to save home run I doubt it. Joe I'm sorry but I don't beleive any player would intentionally hit a ball at the pitcher to save a home run.Not even you. JMO |
| Dec. 13, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | I think players are more likely to go middle with two strikes. What kind of rule would fix this? Just a thought. |
| Dec. 14, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | You're a man, Butch. It takes balls, the good kind, to have a real disagreement, to truly reveal what one feels and thinks and contribute to others learning about what's going on. We disagree and that's OK. Happy holidays. |
| Dec. 14, 2009 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | butch, the only rule that might change that would be to eliminate the fouling out with two strikes rule. We did not use it for years, not sure why it came into play more recently. My guess was to speed up the game, but I don't remember being plagued by two hour games in the 70s when I started. |
| Dec. 14, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Joe, You are right we agree to disagree in a friendly way and that is the way it is supposed to be. Happy Holidays Dirty you are right and Happy Holidays to you. |
| Dec. 14, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | like i've been saying the middle has always been open,regardless of hrs left.yes butch there has always been hr limits(except for the real early yrs).the only unlimited were the big boys div's.A on down(young div's)has always had limits.when i started playing senior, AA used to be a no hr div,AAA was a 2b for all hit over,we didn't start getting hr's till the M div.so why the big deal now. also on the 2 strikes foul,it used to be that guys would stand up there and foul ball after ball off till they got thier perfect pitch for them,reason they started the 3rd strike foul out. i also would tell a pitcher to be on thier toes if i had 2 strikes as i wasn't gonna try and do a line and foul out,most would thank ya for the warning,but still throw ya inside,LOL. |
| Dec. 14, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Just like in the larger society all it takes for wrong-headed/errant stuff to happen is for good men to do nothing. The antidote for any and all societies including the Senior Softball Community or SSC, is for all players to be informed and involved as standards and important decisions are being made that will affect the direction and/or well being of the group. I think that's been made significantly clear to date and will need positive reinforcement as we attempt to move down the road better together. By being MORE involved and included at every and any level top to bottom and bottom to top we all will be, no doubt, better served. |
| Dec. 14, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | mad dog, I was one of those foul ball hitters before they changed the rule. Happy Holidays my friend. |
| Dec. 14, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | butch,we used to hate your type,as we would have to wait for the balls to get back to keep going,LOL.i think its prolly the reason the time limits were instituted,also. |
| Dec. 14, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Here's a couple more while we're at it. Butch, how about: -Lively bat/ball combo forever. -HR's as walks after equalizer will protect pitchers automatically -Free defensive subbing -Website used to teach, poll, vote by members for rules and standards -No PPR -1 and 1 count -no time limit once double elim starts -standard mercy rule -extend mound back 6 more feet -one courtesy runner per inning -only bat 10 in major/major plus -sliding OK across home plate/line -larger plate/mat -no batter's box violation -better balls than 44x375Stote Ball when going to 325 foot fields -Clock between innings to get on/off field -lifetime ban for bat cheaters -automatic ejection for any player disrespecting self or any fan, official, player or umpire -associations should keep player stats and make awards to players that end up on top of selected categories -70 foot bases ...just to name a few. |
| Dec. 15, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Joe here is my thoughts Your idea of ball is different than mine. Home run limits. NO free defensive subs. OK with no time limit if YOU will pay the extra $200 to $250 they are going to charge for entry fee. Website good but if Assoc. loses money YOU will reimburse them so we can continue to play. NO ppr (I knew we could agree on something). 5 runs per inning.1 and 1 is good. Should be able to slide at all bases. Must stay in the box as long as you are touching line. 44/375 Stote ball nothing hotter. Keep your own stats only at worlds should the Assoc keep them. 70 foot bases good. Bat cheaters I agree. Bat as many as you want play 11 defensive players. Joe I think it would be easier for you to start your own Assoc. than try to change all the stuff you want for an existing Assoc. You need to realize that a lot of what you propose, IMO, would not work well with Major, AAA, and AA such as hotter balls, unlimited home runs or walks after limit, 1 runner per inning. Some are just nuts only bat 10, free defensive subs.With the existing rules you can only bat 10 if you choose. If you want unlimited time limit in tourney play ASA, NSA they already have it. You cant have hot balls hot bats and unlimited time with out it affecting cost of entry fee. Do you think maybe it is because of the bats and balls? |
| Dec. 15, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Joe, I think you have forgotten this is just a game. Do we want to win? Yes. Will the sun come up the next day if we lose? Yes. Do most of us want to pay $1000.00 entry fee so we can have unlimited home runs and no time limit? I don't. I would rather play in more tourneys with the extra money.Just some reasonable thoughts. |
| Dec. 15, 2009 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | butch, why would no time limits require higher entrance fees? What additional would have to be covered? butch, the sun ALWAYS comes up. Heck, it came up after Pearl Harbor and on 9/12/01. Joe, to some of your points. - if guys cannot hit a big ball moving slowly let them play checkers. - NO courtesy runners. If you can get to first, you can get the rest of the way. This is only softball. - The mat/plate is plenty big. Actually it should be abolished. Strike zones were meant to be vertical, NOT horizontal. And guys 5'7" should NOT have the same size zone as guys 6'8". That goes against everything in softball, and baseball for that matter. - I totally agree with doing something to get guys on and off the field faster. I was always taught to hustle between the lines, but I guess a lot of guys never got that lesson. |
| Dec. 15, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Dirty, A couple years ago ss/usa said okay to no time limits, open innings but they were going to charge every team an extra $200 for added expense such as balls (after limit singles) and umpires. I dont blame an umpire for not wanting to get same pay for a 2 hr. game vs. a game that should be done in a little more than an hour. One game was 60 to 20 and I'm sure it lasted a while. With the present ball and bats it is common sense that with unlimited runs, unlimited home runs and or singles after limit the games last longer. I find it odd that someone would want a clock on inning changes but advocate for hitting 20 or more balls out of the park by one team as okay. With the added cost of that rule it would have cost us about $1600. that is about the cost of entry fees in 3 or 4 tourneys. |
| Dec. 15, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | We played 8 tourneys but if they would have kept the extra charge it would have been 4 or 5. I would rather play 8 tourneys. |
| Dec. 15, 2009 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | butch17, Some senior ASA events do have time limits, usually 1 hr 10 min. If you played in ca up noth, that 1600 will go even further. Dirty, I don't feel there really is a Strike ZONE per se, only has height limits and plate\matt area. This isn't modified slo pitch which has both or any other game. If your referring to the Protection crap zone as it were, it's the pitchers head height. Just hope it isn't found. |
| Dec. 15, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Gary. Right on about getting on and off the field. I would also favor a strike zone added to normal size mat which would make it more challenging for the hitters with less balls comfortably scorched through the box. Butch. SPA has played unlimited time games once double elim starts for years now and I've played some of best, most memorable games of my senior career with them. Hitting a ball over the fence for a single would take about the same time to record or should as a regular single and if time has to be spent on something priority would go to where we seniors have the MOST fun and that would be swinging out and hitting the ball hard and fast and over a fence. Butch, you talk a lot about how much stuff would cost, like cost is paramount and the bottom line. If the cost of playing jeopardizes the fun of playing, then it won't be worth the investment and time. Gary's right. Let's go back to basic, un-changed rule softball with good balls and bats and let us have some fun but if you're gonna let things be changed they can't be done if it means losing or compromising the joy or fundamental experience of playing the game. Lively bats and balls forever and if you play to win the game free subbing is much better than batting more than 10. |
| Dec. 15, 2009 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Joe, how about no mat, no free subbing/platooning, and you only bat 10? You know, like it was when we first started loving this game. But, to be honest with you, while I don't want to see wood bats and Harwoods back either, I think we can all live with Utrip bats and 44 COR balls. Let the home run hitters hit home runs, and the rest of the guys just continue to hit like they did in their 20s and 30s. If you couldn't hit it 300 then, why should you be able to now? And for goodness sake, NOTHING that even resembles a PPR, or a friggin screen on my field. :) |
| Dec. 15, 2009 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | You can count on one thing, much will be changing in time... how much time? 1-3 years on the outside is my guesstimate. I got that from physic Cleo out of FL... Long since put out of business, she was a scammer... err accurate... lol Serious on the other though. |
| Dec. 15, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Joe, You are kidding with that comment about money I hope. This coming from a guy that cant go here or go play there because somebody else will not pay for it. Talk about cost being bottom line!! Yes I talk about costs because we spend mostly our own money not someone else. Try thinking about what was said on other posts by you before you type something like that!!! Joe I would like for you to answer this question and please do not squirm around it like normal. How much of YOUR money did you spend for entry fees, plane tickets, rental cars, and hotel bills the last couple years? It's easy when you are spending other peoples money not to care how much it costs. Joe I'm not complaining I'm stating facts and I will bet you a new Miken bat the MAJORITY of senior softball players are footing their own way. It is just a bat so dont fret the cost if you lose I promise I won't. Thank you in advance for your straight answer. |
| Dec. 15, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Gary. If you make the pitching arc 3-12 with faking, bat 10 no subbing, 1.2 bats with what the 44x375 balls used to be a couple of years ago or Trumps MCT Rock 44x375 ball and I say "let's play ball." I have a Freak Plus that is scorching, Gary. It's a legal 1.2 USSSA bat. |
| Dec. 15, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Dirty, Would love to go back to Alum. bats and blue dots. Would love to go back to unlimited arch. Neither is going to happen. No screen or PPR. |
| Dec. 15, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Butch, my good man. We detect a distinct edge to your voice? I thought we could agree to disagree. Isn't that what you said a couple of posts ago? My arrangements with teams I play for are my business. Period. And have nothing to do with my involvement, love and investment in senior softball then, now or in the future which would be easy to document and a waste of time. Why not stick to the issues as you said was OK with us, Butch? I've learned my lesson about making stuff too personal on the site and it sounds like you should, too. |
| Dec. 15, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Joe, You responded just as I thought you would. You are the one that brought up that I'm always talking about costs and sometimes I do. You dont see it because you dont spend it like my team mates and I, as most of the teams in Senior ball do. That was my point Joe you dont care about the $200 per tourney because you dont pay so you wouldn't care if it was $500. So once again we agree to disagree but I think the majority of Senior Players are beginning to see who cares about who. You are the one that made it personal with that comment and you know it!! If you need it to be personal I'm sure you have my e-mail and yes there was an edge to my voice but drank a cup of coffee and now I'm fine. :) |
| Dec. 15, 2009 JohnBob Men's 65 256 posts | butch,maybe we need a salary cap lol |
| Dec. 15, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | JohnBob, What he does is fine with me just dont try and belittle me because I answer a question with a straight answer. At least I answered the question unlike some. |
| Dec. 15, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | It's all part of the record now Butch no matter what either of us might want to say and our teammates and fellow members can figure it out for themselves. Let's not make it personal, OK? Let's agree to disagree as you said was all right just a couple of posts ago and we'll get along just fine. Money issues, Butch, shouldn't change the nature, the spirit, the essence of us or our sport, and shouldn't rob us of the intrinsic enjoyment of a game we all love to play. You can quote me on this one. You can call it a bias if you want but it's really how and I think and feel. |
| Dec. 15, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Joe, The real bottom line is we either play by the rules set forth by each association or we dont. I choose to play in most associations, by the rules including bats and balls, because i enjoy playing softball. If a person chooses to not attend because of them so be it. We can suggest and ask but not demand they change the rule or in your case most of the rules :). Yes I look at expense because I beleive that it effects 95% of the guys playing senior ball. How many times do you hear teams say because of expense they can only go here or there. If it was a little less expensive maybe we could have more teams to play maybe not. I do know higher costs wont attract them. I'm not selective when it comes to softball I look at the whole picture which includes ALL divisions Major Plus, Major, AAA and AA. I'm not going to call it bias we will let all of the players decide if it is or not. |
| Dec. 15, 2009 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Joe, I will give you 6' to unlimited, but nothing less than 6'. The name of the game is SLOW-PITCH, and to me 3' is just not slow-pitch. But that might just be me. As far as faking, I much more enjoy seeing what I can get away with than making it legal and letting everyone do it. It would take the gamesmanship out of the postion, and since so many want to take the pitcher's right to field the ball away what would be left? Any legal Utrip bat would be fine with me, and sure some are hotter than others. But nothing "special" just for seniors. Let's get our pride back and use what everyone else is. butch, if Joe can get guys to pay his way more power to him. Joe, I know you are aware but you do need to be somewhat sensitive to the fact that a very small number of players get sponsored like you seem to. |
| Dec. 15, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Dirty like I said more power to him and the others. I've had my offers. I just dont like someone telling me not to care about money when I know so many that spend their own and the person telling me that doesnt spend any. Joe, We tried that different rules for Major Plus and it did not get off the ground. The only way it would work is like when we were younger they started the Super Major Division. We could make Major Plus a division that had NO force ups, strictly play by choice and if you choose to play then you are there for the year. Then maybe you could get the rules changed and pay the higher fee and not effect the other divisions. Just a thought. |
| Dec. 15, 2009 salio2k Men's 60 547 posts | butch17..........Your post about playing by the rules set forth by each association is right on! Here, at SSUSA we do not use special bats or balls. Players should check the rules and decide for themselves whether to play or not. They should not demand changes to abide by other association rules. If I want to play USSSA or ASA, I can. I too play with the young ones, using ASA rules. No problem at all. |
| Dec. 16, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Guys, No one is forcing any association or members to do anything. We're talking about what we think and feel is really going on or should be going on which is important feedback for any association that would want to stay connected and relevant with its constituents. Remember. We all are the senior softball community. We, the players, play, suffer and invest so others can have something to do and make a living off US... And we have a right to say what we want and need and expect to get from it all. Look how prominent the players association is in baseball or any other professional support because without the players input, perspective and needs the game is NOT the game at all but some vehicle for advertizers, owners, retailers, TV and manufactureres. No. We need to be directly involved with our own destiny for not only our well being but for the well being of our sport. And everyone better wake up and smell the coffee before we all end up somewhere else. Restricted flight softball will NEVER fly with us. That's way more than just my opinion and for a ton of reasons no matter how safe we make the ball. Can you imagine if they changed the ball in the major leagues because they found the severity index for pitchers getting concussions and batters being hit by pitchers causing broken bones was too high? C'mon, man. That's the essence, the soul of the game we play since little league. Softball is a version of baseball. And owes itself to the game we all loved and couldn't play enough of growing up and the fundamental character of both are really very close and needs to stay that way. There were kids when we were young that were afraid to get hit with the ball and that showed us who we were and weren't - who we wanted and needed to be. I think it's unmanly to be quiet when important stuff is going on that needs to be addressed for the well being of all. Some of us think it's the other way around. That silence while guys whine and suffer about wrong stuff is going down is the "manly" way to be. That would be the case if those running the show saw it and us that way and went out of their way to make us happy but that just doesn't work in 2009 America and it's usually the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. So, let's all get more involved instead of less. Let's get more of us involved instead of less. All learning and figuring out and expressing what WE think and feel and want to see in senior ball. Almost all revolutions were attempts to get societies to come back to the people and principles from the corruption, divergence and changes that often come in any successful society. There's no need for "revolution" or another association if the associations in existence stay WITH us and true to the game in us as we all try to move down the road of Senior softball better together. Happy holidays, one and all. |
| Dec. 16, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | hey guys one expense i haven't seen thrown out,is the extra time you'll need for field rental for unlimited time games. also i think ss-usa is privately owned,ya don't like thier rules go someplace else. butch i would also say that 95% of all senior players pay thier way.maybe we can have just a sponsered div and let all the ego maniacs play there. |
| Dec. 16, 2009 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | It just seems to me that there are so many rules now that we did not use to have mainly because of the souped-up bats. When I started playing 36 years ago there was no concern with games, or innings, being too long. So there were no time or run limits. And for the life of me I don't remember many 2 hour games. What else can the long games that everyone is fearing today be attributed to besides the bats? |
| Dec. 16, 2009 Garocket Men's 55 259 posts | Dirty you are correct about 36 years ago If we went back to the game the way it was 36 years ago we would only need two Classes ASA had Major and A We could have AAA and Major 2 homeruns in AAA 6 Homeruns in Major But we would have to hit with Bombats and use RF 80 cork center balls I do not think either divisions would run out of Homeruns very often No run limits or time limits most games would be over in 50-60 minutes cause the games would be 8-6 and 12-8 very often Sometimes you might even get to see a 2-1 game. And guess what we had as much fun playing those as the 24-23 games that take an hour and 45 minutes to play I am also a realist knowing this will never happen but those really were the good old days, when nobody cried about somebody being out of class You brought 10 I brought 10 and we played the game, with the better team that day winning |
| Dec. 16, 2009 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | Garocket, by any chance do you live in Vegas? |
| Dec. 16, 2009 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | I accept that there are advancements in technology in almost all walks of life. But for the life of me I just don't get why seniors need special bats, and yea guys they are special or else players under 50 would be allowed to use them. When we have to start changing, or even thinking of changing, many facets of the game to accommodate them it has probably gone too far. But Garocket, I do like your post and perspective. |
| Dec. 16, 2009 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | Garocket, I think we have finally found an ally in einstein. Here's what he said in his last post: "Softball is a version of baseball. And owes itself to the game we all loved and couldn't play enough of growing up and the fundamental character of both are really very close and needs to stay that way. Amen, einstein, you are coming around. The game that Garocket and I and most senior players (including you) played before the nineties was wooden or single wall bats, maybe a lively ball (the Blue Dot days), with equal emphasis on defense and base running and strategy and disciplined offense. There was admiration for the true home run hitter who could put one over the fence, but also for the shortstop with range and the fielder with speed and in the days of unrestricted arc, for the pitcher. Yes, I played in leagues for 45 years with unlimited runs per inning, and we played and finished most games in 1:00 or so, mainly because the scores were 6 to 4, 7 to 3, and the occasional "blow out" when scores soared over 10! There was a balance of offense and defense and as einstein noted, it was very much like baseball with its low scores. I've seen the younger guys playing today on fields with short fences in town, and a RF ball is mandated, and it looks like games from the past—balance between offense and defense (some balls are still hit out), and scores lower than senior ball, and games finishing on time without run limits. Bring back the "game we all loved and couldn't play enough of growing up". |
| Dec. 17, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | That game, as I have stated an uncountable number of times was played with the best ball and bat we could find or by and bring and share. Do you remember when someone had a good ball? We made them go get it. When someone had a good or better bat, we all used it. You're good at spinning stuff OK including you're real identity but the level of liveliness of the bat ball combination that you endorse is below what we, the majority of senior players, want, need, deserve and obviously, have gotten and will continue to get (think and thank SSUSA and LVSSA) If the bat ball combo is good enough which means lively enough that all by itself gives us the foundation to not cheat and go after the bat cheaters. I think you prefer a tamer game than I and most of the other players I talk with in NorCal and across the country. There's nothing wrong with that. We're all entitled to who we are and at what level we want to play the game. But, let's be clear. If you can see playing softball with scores of 5-3, 6-4 and 3-2 that got seven innings in an hour we're not talking about the same game and we disagree which I've said all along is OK with me(somebody stop me). I'm with Gary and we should go back to no rules softball with lively bats and balls, 300 foot fences, no home run rules and lets' play ball. |
| Dec. 17, 2009 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Joe, while the current bats really don't bother me as long as no one wants to change any of the fundamental rules because of them, I admit I am not as passionate or adamant about them as you are. I do have one question. Given that USSSA bats are pretty good by most any standard, why do you feel that seniors should use special bats that no one else can? Isn't that a bit demeaning to seniors? I see it that way, just wondering your viewpoint. |
| Dec. 17, 2009 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Joe You need to give the lively ball/bat issue a rest, you have become a bore with the issue. Call or email your district rep (Fran) and explain your concerns/wishes/demands to her. I remember play in the early 70's, but I dont recall ever playing a game 5-3, 6-4, or 3-2. Our scores were the same as they are now, virtually no difference. You continue to express the wishes of "The Majority", you Joe are not the Majority nor do you represent them, at least I cant find any evidence of this. I have said before, you put out a lot of good thought provoking questions, I hope you keep it up. But dont try to sell dirt and manure to a farmer. Happy Holidays Joe! jmo |
| Dec. 17, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Gary, We're not far away at all as it comes to be seen which is the case fundamentally between any 2 would be enemies anywhere in the world, anytime in history or time and space. I have a Freak Plus I have abused for a year now in any and all conditions as my BP bat. It's begun to rattle and it's as hot now as any Ultra 2 I've ever swung and, it's more end loaded which makes it better. I swung a Super Freak this past year that was probably hotter than any Ultra 2 I've ever swung and it was more endloaded than an Ultra 2, too. These both are acceptable USSSA 1.2 bats. So, the distinction between hot USSSA standard bats and Senior bats is not readily apparent when they get broken in. E4. I speak for the majority on some issues probably not and on others probably so. There's no doubt in my mind that senior players want to and will play with a lively bat and ball combo. There's no doubt in my mind that most players know that pitching becomes more dangerous when HR's are made DBOs. There's no doubt in my mind that free defensive subbing is not a majority opinion for senior softball players, at least yet. There's no doubt in my mind that using screens is not an majority opinion in senior softball right now. So, I don't think speaking for the majority is necessarily a bad thing or incorrect. It owes to whether it's true or not. Again, if we or some association had a way of polling or voting for it's membership than all doubt could be/would be removed from some of the arguments we tend to have. And, there can be a lot of self interest disguised as majority opinions, at all levels of the senior community that would/could be challenged and exposed which could be the reason why it's not currently available. Speaking for the majority is fundamentally all right and necessary at times and what we need more is the capability to be able to back up with credible voting/polling evidence our contentions. Any and all of them. |
| Dec. 17, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Joe, How is the freak with USSSA ball standards? |
| Dec. 17, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Butch, I said Freak Plus and if I'm not mistaken it's still an approved USSSA bat. |
| Dec. 17, 2009 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Joe I see your point, but wholeheartedly disagree with your idea that you have any right to speak for anyone, minority or majority or individual. When you take that upon yourself you are infringing upon each of those people and their rights. You do have the right however to voice YOUR opinion(s), but not those of others. Joe, when you are elected or given those rights through petition or vote, then and then only do you have the power of the people. I do agree with your thoughts on players needing a forum to vote. We do have regional reps to voice our concerns for us if we use them. |
| Dec. 17, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Joe, My fault. How is the Freak Plus with their ball standard. It maybe the reason they allow it and not U-2. It is possible if they used a different(hotter) ball it would not be legal. Did I detect a little twinge in your voice? Nothing personal just asking. Happy Holidays |
| Dec. 17, 2009 salio2k Men's 60 547 posts | Joe....Remember the poll we took several years ago on the U-2? Yes..........2876 No...........6 How about platooning? Yes..........1 No...........2881 You are only right 50% about the majority. Enjoy the holidays. |
| Dec. 17, 2009 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | einstein, I'm not looking for a tamer game, I'm interested in a saner game. When I first started pitching fast pitch, the rubber was 37' 8 1/2" from home! Would you pitch from that distance with today's monster bats? Didn't think so. The only thing that kept pitching from being suicidal was the wooden bat. Technology will always outpace human development. We are no faster or stronger or quicker than guys 50 years ago. But the bat has become way better. That's why little guys like me are now poking home runs for the first time, even with a loss of power, bat speed, and even eyesight. You are looking for "best ball and bat we could find" and I am warning against the excessively hot bat that has changed the game from one of balance and beauty into a slugfest where offense rules. Why do you think baseball has stayed with the wooden bats? To stop the whole lineup from hitting 400' shots and to protect the infielders and pitcher. With your desire for best available, there is no stopping the better and better bat and ball until the game is just a batting practice exhibition. Keep advocating for the hot (and hotter bats as you describe your broken-in Freak Plus and Super Freak) and the pitching screen and the dumbed down ball will be here in a year. |
| Dec. 17, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Oh Sal. I'm startin' to feel like Rodney freakin' Dangerfield. "What a tough crowd. I don't get no respect. I bought my kid a BBGun for Christmas. And he got me a sweatshirt with a target on the back." Actually, Sal. I never said Platooning was popular. It just should be. Nothing better than a good laugh, Sal. Keep 'em coming. Omar. If I ever go to court I gotta get you to represent me. You're relentless, artful and persuasive. You go, guy. It will be the screen first, OK. The majority of senior players and I think all players will never accept a significantly dumbed down ball and you can quote me on that one and the youngsters shouldn't either. Again, SSUSA and LVSSA and NCSSA and SPA have already weighed in for a lively bat/ball combo for seniors. I don't know what else to tell but you don't represent the majority of senior players on this issue and that is crystal clear. I don't represent the majority on free defensive subbing but I still think it's a great idea with a ton of senior softball merit. Don't give up hope, OK. OK? |
| Dec. 17, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | could some one cliff note all of joe's posts,they are so full of junk and he insists on typeing 4 words a line to take up so much space also makes them a pain to read. |
| Dec. 17, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Only tough for some, Robert. Happy Holidays and keep up the good work. |
| Dec. 18, 2009 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | sad dog, you must need Cliff notes for See Spot Run with your "massive" intellect. :( |
| Dec. 18, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | well coming from a dipstick,not much credibility there.when you can stay on a team again(and not get cut) please let us know. joe just let the message board do it instead of hitting enter every 4 words. |
| Dec. 18, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Why not stay or at least try to stay on the issues, Robert if you want to be taken seriously. Name calling says more about you than about whomever you're trying to demean. Gary's all right and not afraid to stand up for what he believes even if it's unpopular. That takes balls. Don't be the first one to throw a stone. Again, try to stay on the issues and we'll all be better served. |
| Dec. 18, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | so you are gary's buddy now,what is it,something we don't know. JOE you got to be kidding,you will hijack a thread in a instant with you crying about the "seniors need a hot bat/ball combo",yeah right. |
| Dec. 18, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Now dog give him credit that has not showed up on the "Best Shoes" thread yet.:) |
| Dec. 18, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Issues, Dog. I-S-S-U-E-S, you know. Stuff worth talkin' about. I'm sure you can come up with one, if you try. |
| Dec. 18, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | its not a bad idea,but if i ask you a question about something,its the SOS,no answer from you,just a big tirade on how we seniors need the hottest equipment around.you want this to be nothing but about you and your crusade,with no regard to the safety of the senior ball player.you would rather play hr derby vs a real ball game(pitching,real hitting not this hr derby you suggest we do and defense),you just get on your bully pulpit and condensend down to the ones would like to see the game come back to which it should be.why is everyone else wrong but your right. |
| Dec. 18, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | oh forgot to add,"I GUESS ADVOCATING FOR SOME SAFETY IN OUR GAME IS NOT AN ISSUE" |
| Dec. 18, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Robert, Safety is a great issue. What's safe and unsafe. What's worth sacrificing some safety for and what isn't. Somewhere down the line the regulatory fathers decided some safety rules were in order. Remember, that's not my preference or Gary's or many others who feel the game shouldn't be changed at all for safety reasons. Good balls and bats and let's play. But given safety concerns I think we need to be sure we need safety measures at all. Studies show there were more injuries 10 years ago than today. But if you want to go with safety concerns than why not leave the ball/bat alone and change other stuff like pitching rules to give the pitcher more to work with or masks or screens. All these are worthy of concern and I'm sure there's other stuff, too. If a ball is safer and still fun to hit let's play with that ball but I won't sacrifice safety for fun. No, Robert, I won't and most of us won't either. If a ball has to be made into a pillow to be safe then I say NO DEAL. Why can't a ball be made safer and lively, too. Then TD's will still be chasing them and losing them and innings will be longer and less and games will be longer with more runs scored. You see, Robert there's a lot more to it than meets the eye when you stare at it for a while. So, safety's a great issue but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water and kill our game. That's what I'm talking about and that's my issue. Lively balls/good bats forever and make the game safer, too. How's do like them apples? |
| Dec. 19, 2009 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Same old story........Different Day. We have our ball (44/375) and our bats (U2's), etc. This entire issue is being beaten into the ground and is far, far, beyond redundant. If we want to continue to hit the ball at 140mph back through the middle, we better be ready for severe injuries and/or a death. We have been very lucky to date. I can see when it happens, this blog will be ablazed with ??? wanting to know why more safety measures werent taken. When the horse gets out of the barn isnt the time to take action. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all. Stay safe my friends! |
| Dec. 20, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey E, It won't matter if, God forbid, someone takes one in the head. It's happened before and nothing's been done about it else how'd we get here. If you really want to preserve what's truly important and intrinsic to senior ball, as in safety and lively bat/ball combo then support screens, or tougher arch limits and other pitching options, move the rubber back farther make the plate wider, go to one and one count, etc. I never got why the solution has to be something that would neuter our sport and those playing. |
| Dec. 20, 2009 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | No one has been killed yet Joe. When that happens it will be too late. But changes will made, changes we will then welcome out of fear. It seems our game did pretty well before the Senior bats came along. We have been using the 44/375 for years in one form or another, now we have hot bats that turn it into a cannon ball. You want to take our game back? Advocate no senior bats. Lets prove who the big boys are. The ones who will still smoke the cover off the pellet. People on this site talk about getting in shape or moving to a different position if their reflexes slow down. We are called seniors for a reason and as senioors there are certain facts that we will have to face. We are older, our reflexes have slowed, our bones are more brittle, our vision isnt nearly what it was as 25. The list goes on and on. When my playing days are done, I want it to be my decision, not some Dr in an ER. The balls we hit with Mikens and other bats get thru the infield 2 x faster then with wooden or 1st generation aluminum. I for one am almost 3 x older then when I started this game. Do the math. |
| Dec. 20, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | E4/E6,couldn't of said it better,its what i have been saying all along,if ya wanna keep the hot bats we need to change the ball(aka 52-275 or similar),if ya wanna keep the ball we need to go with the usssa bats max.using a screen does nothing for the game but put an obstruction on the field,as for safety equipment(do ya think ss-usa wants to front for 10 screens,min),who's gonna buy a mask and shin guards if they go that way,they can run ya $100 plus.all the other artificial ways do nothing to protect the pitcher(aka 1-1 count,higher arc,etc).the only true way is to go to the 52-275 ball. |
| Dec. 21, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | E and Robert. Those are great arguments but so is, the game is dangerous or it wouldn't be the game. Wait long enough and someone will take one in the head and be hurt. That's the way we've been playing for years. Why change now?????????????????????????? Wear a mask. Plus, the math doesn't add up. Why not change the depth the pitcher pitches from and increase the angles. this can be done easily without cost or effecting anything else. Why not masks or screens which make more sense than you guys wanna see. And why not wait for a ball that's both lively and safe. I know that going to a lesser bat/ball combo will kill our sport. So does SSUSA, LVSSA, SPA, NORCAL and other associations that have already made a stand. They represent the majority of us, guys, by a long shot and you can keep lobbying and cajoling and acting self righteous all you want but it won't change that there's lots of way to skin the cat when it comes right down to it and when those other ways aren't championed or explored it makes me think "what else is involved here" "why aren't they talking about changing the pitchers arc" "what other things does going to a lesser ball accomplish and for whom" These are very good questions with very real answers for anyone with the awareness, care and fortitude to ask them. We know TD's don't wanna chase or lost balls. What part does this play in the equation. We know manufacturers want to sell their products, their inventions, their investments to capture or maintain market share or control which is completely legal and part of our money culture? What part does this play in it. We know TD's want to keep tournaments running on time so they want to get the most innings in the least amount of time so guys won't complain about not getting enough the fee? What part does this play in the movement to go to a lesser ball. Injuries dictate I'm a pitcher, now. My game will be greatly enhanced with a lesser ball or a restricted flight ball. It will be much easier for me to mess with batters and keep guys from hitting the ball hard and far. Why am I so opposed to going away from a lively bat/ball combo? Because it will kill the game and most of the senior players think so, too. |
| Dec. 21, 2009 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Joe, I agree with some of your what you are saying. Let me ask you a direct question, did you have fun playing Senior Softball BEFORE senior bats came on the scene? Not more fun, just plain old fun. |
| Dec. 21, 2009 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | E4/E6, what a great question. Since I've been playing league softball longer than most of the guys on this forum (1953), I have a long term perspective. First of all, softball has always been fun for me! I have played every single year since that first season. But some years have been more fun than others. In the fast pitch days (I have always been a pitcher), it became less fun as the pitcher became more and more dominant. The rubber was moved back again and again to try to temper that dominance, but it wasn't much fun for most batters. When there are tons of strikeouts, it's nice to win if your man is the horse, but it is boring for fielders and frustrating for hitters. Games were typically 2-1, and usually on errors and walks combined. Along came slow pitch and softball took off. Everyone could hit, and only pitchers lost status. Every fielder was important since most guys learned to hit to the opposite side. There was a play every at bat. Only occasionally did a ball clear the fence and that slugger was greatly admired by both teams. Offense, defense, base running, strategy—the balanced game was so much fun. Things started to change when hot balls were introduced. More infielders were hurt; pitchers became less secure. Eventually, the super hot balls were dropped for all but the top levels because most reflexes weren't up to the task. And these were 20 and 30-year-olds! Balance was restored and the balls reverted to the old days, if not to RF balls. I still had lots of fun and dreamed of the next game. The first aluminum bats were no problem. They weren't any hotter than wood. What they did provide was durability and the new concept of team bats (our team at one time had only 5 bats that we all shared). Then came the hot bats—titanium, double wall, composites. Offense ruled...and does to this day. The younger guys have realized that it is ruining the game and hot bats are banned and sock balls are used in many places. But the seniors have been slow to realize that an unbalanced game takes away a lot of the fun. As an oldster, my strength has lessened (although I hit farther than ever in my life with the Miken); my reflexes have slowed (I now armor up to pitch and it affects my fielding ability); I am slower to heal so the normal risks of getting plunked take more of a toll. What has not changed is my knowledge of the game—strategy, base running, backing up, anticipation, building team chemistry, etc. But these qualities are not as important in the unbalanced game that we currently have. I still have fun, or I wouldn't play 20 tournaments a year and 120+ league games. But I would have more fun if we returned to the recent past and a balanced game. Do away with the hot bats or dumb down the balls to return to balance where every skill is important. |
| Dec. 21, 2009 Player25 Men's 55 50 posts | IMO the game was not dangerous until technology became involved, i.e. the T 4000. After several players were hurt or killed, the ball was banned. The same or similar with the titanium bats. Yes, you could get hurt with a ball to the head but do not remember hearing of anyone killed before the "changes" to the game. Why should technology dictate a change to the game with masks, screens, etc. If the players actually play the game for the love, friendship, etc. then changing the bat/ball combo should not change that. If all assoc. would change to the same bat/ball combo, those who love the game would adjust and those who play for their "ego" may not. It is true that manufacturers/inventors have the right to use technology to develop whatever they want but that does not mean anyone has to use the new developments. I agree it is about money but IMO it is the money being given to assoc. by the bat manufacturers that driving the decision to keep the hot bats. That decision has driven a large number of players to buy the hotter equipment. If not using the hotter equipment, it would be like taking a knife to a gun fight. I am not saying that all divisions need to move away from the hot bat/ball combo but it should be a decision to move the that division and not something a team gets moved into because they had success. I do not intend to speak for the majority, only my opinion. Personally I had more fun with the lesser equipment. It allowed more facets of the game to have an effect to the outcome. To me it requires more practice, talent, etc. to base hit then to hit homeruns. I would like to see the game return to the well rounded game instead of just an offense dominated game. |
| Dec. 21, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Great comments, guys. Too bad we can't tell you, personally. OK. You talk effortessly and brilliantly from your perspective and I love to read your stuff but you don't speak for the majority of players. Hitting the ball well and hard is fundamental to our game, the game most of us play. Don't kill the messenger. Also, many of us who have the power and innate ability to drive the ball never took or thought we needed any lessons on how to do it which I found out like Ray DeMarini and Bogie, isn't true. Bog's videos are the best, most inclusive and most entertaining videos on hitting I've ever seen and there are some terrific ones out there. With conditioning and technique training and confidence lots of us not just me, can hit the ball better than we did earlier in our careers. And playing with good lively equipment still motivates us to try to figure it out better so we can maximize our efforts. I know this is true for lots of us. We have more time now to devote to training and conditioning as lots of us are retired and/or make more time to spend on things we truly enjoy. Sorry, guys. It doesn't matter if someone gets hurt bad with a batted softball next tournament or year. I've gotten bones broken before the hot bats came into being. Getting hurt is part of the game we use, as Gary says, to motivate us to train, lift weights, get into the best shape we can to play the game the way it was meant to be played. If you don't want to play/pitch you don't have to. |
| Dec. 21, 2009 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | "You talk effortessly and brilliantly from your perspective and I love to read your stuff but you don't speak for the majority of players." We seem to have a mutual admiration here. But you dont speak for the majority either. "Sorry, guys. It doesn't matter if someone gets hurt bad with a batted softball next tournament or year. I've gotten bones broken before the hot bats came into being. Getting hurt is part of the game" What matters more then another ball player being injured? Winning at ANY cost? I think not. If thats your thought process, you have evolved far beyond reasonable men. After all softball is our sport/hobby, not our profession. All the best boys! |
| Dec. 21, 2009 Paco13 424 posts | "Sorry, guys. It doesn't matter if someone gets hurt bad with a batted softball next tournament or year". Einstein 2009. Sir, you are disgrace to the game. To some of us this still a game that we play to have fun have few beers with friends…Actually most of the time we pray and always ask the Lord for the safety of all. I have no idea who you are, but I have lost all respect for you, for you put the ability to hit 400' HRs over the safety of human being it is truly sad. You are a sorry excuse of a human being. |
| Dec. 21, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | There you go again, Paco whomever making it personal and I'm not supposed to react. SSUSA, LVSSA SPA and NCSSA all endorse a lively bat/ball combo but I'm a disgrace, eh? You're little movement to kill our game has just finished it's 15 minutes of fame. It's time for me and the rest of the senior softball community to train and get ready for 2010. If you really care about safety there's lots of ways to make the game safer without killing it and us and the fun we deserve to have. Check out NorCal sometime when you get a chance and we don't mind you having a dissenting opinion and we won't call you a disgrace. You're self-righteous little hustle won't work with us, either. |
| Dec. 21, 2009 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Joe, Beathe deep, Breathe deep, JK, =) I'm quite sure we will agree our game will still be here tomorrow, regardless of the bat/ball being used. We will still play the game with whatever bat/ball we are being sold. You have your Christmas wish list and I have mine. Neither is a Majority or a Minority. They are different and they are both right, and they are both wrong. Points of view will, I hope, always vary or be different. Stay safe, and for Christ sake back up after your release! =) Merry Christmas! Boonierat1@aol.com John |
| Dec. 21, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Thanks, John. That was obviously well intentioned. But we disagree. I contend the majority of players want/need to play with a satisfyingly lively bat/ball combo. I have asked just about every player I know and have never heard once that this isn't so. So, I'm not going very far out on the limb saying my opinion is a majority one. It's a no doubter. Happy Holidays. Thanks for the obviously good intentions not only this season but all seasons. Same to you. |
| Dec. 21, 2009 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | Scenario: Einstein hits one 375 feet over the fence in a tournament. His teammate, next at bat, hits one 400 feet. Trotting back to the dugout, einstein goes out and high-fives his buddy. "Don't you just love the hot bat/ball combo?"asks einstein. "You dambetcha!" his teammate replies. Einstein goes to a line drive hitter in the dugout whose infield value to the team is suspect because he can't get to the ball like he used to before the senior bats. "Isn't it great to swing a good bat at a good ball?!" "Whatever you say, Joe" is the meek reply. "I tell ya," says einstein, "everyone I talk to loves the good bat/ball combo! In fact, they want even hotter balls and hotter bats!" |
| Dec. 21, 2009 4x4 Men's 65 601 posts | Something that would go a lot further for player protection would be NO more night games. They are scheduled at night to save costs - but at what cost? Due to this (night) I saw more close calls at the Winter Worlds than I saw (in daylight) during the entire tourney season. That is a real issue. The pitcher "zone" is a mistake as was the PPR. |
| Dec. 21, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | OK. You think a lot less of the players I play with and against and more of me and my intimidating power and prowess than reality would dictate but I think I could learn to like it, oh charming and anonymous one. Are you one of the meek guys and that's why you won't tell us who you really are? |
| Dec. 21, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | 4x4 I agree night games are an issue and I agree also on the new no fly zone. |
| Dec. 22, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | why is it joe if someone doesn't agree with you and they have no info for you ,you call them out and abuse them.when the person who does agree with you has no info,your all for them,how do we know they aren't schills for you,or even you going under an assumed name to boost your group of would be followers. you say your for safety,but will not give up a dangerous bat/ball combo that can kill someone,and then say you couldn't care less if it did happen,i have to agree with paco,that is so disrespecting of your fellow senior softball player. lets get some sanity back to our game and be able to live to see the next day. |
| Dec. 22, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Robert. I was tongue and cheeking and going easy with OK who was tongue and cheeking and going easy with me. You're response to me says more about you and your quickness to jump me than anything about me. Listen, Robert. We can disagree about the balls or what's good for senior ball but you seem to have difficulty being respectful to anyone who disagrees with you. You single me out for what most senior players require and that's a lively bat/ball combo and seem to have trouble accepting that LVSSA, SSUSA, NCSSA and SPA just to name few associations have defined a lively bat/ball standard for the coming year 2010. You can talk all you want, Robert, but it's not gonna change what's going down at least, for this year. I respect anyone who truly believes in anything regardless of whether it's correct or reflected by the majority of members, Robert, and you, sir, need to do the same or every crack and comment you make will be defining you more and more to the senior community as a thick-headed dodo with bad intentions. |
| Dec. 22, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | my post,joe i guess you really don't care then,as long as you get your hot bat/ball combo.oh why am i wrong and your correct,i have seen more support for a less hotter combo than i have for yours.when you ask the players on what they like to hit,do you always ask them also if they don't mind fielding it(aka pitchers)or have it hit at them,i will be willing to bet they would say no. where is it a requirement for seniors to be able seriously injure or kill each other,as this bat/ball combo can do. ok now for the name calling,i'm a thick headed dodo,a schill for anaconda sports,ignorant,and others you have come up with,whats next.please as usaul your bully pulpit tactics will not work here. |
| Dec. 22, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Robert. You say you're so concerned about safety yet your only solution is to dumb down the ball. There's tons of ways to make the game safe and keep the ball lively and fun enough to want to play it. Masks and shin guards, pitching angles, depth, arcs and strike zone, screens, 1-1 count, Why don't or haven't you championed any of these???????????????????? I've said a cajillion times I'm not against a safer ball but it has to be lively enough to thoroughly enjoy our game. I don't think that ball is being made yet but it could be. I'm open, Robert, to any ways that make sense to make our senior softball experience better not just one as you seem to be. I don't want to get personal with you but you never seem to see that I react to the tone and attitude of your posts. And denial, Robert, is not a river in Africa. |
| Dec. 22, 2009 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | einstein, correcto! I was just pulling your tail a little bit with my "scenario" and no, I am not meek, and would always speak up if necessary to present another opinion. Of course we disagree on the hot bat/ball combo, but my concerns are not only with safety. Plenty of contributors here have urged a less dangerous combo for the safety of pitcher and infielder. I see their point, and agree that it is inevitable that a serious accident will occur because senior reflexes will not be able to cope with a swiftly hit ball. The best solution for this is a screen for the pitcher (which offends traditionalists like Dirty), but how to protect infielders? Masks? Armor? It's time to eliminate the super bat (easier than playing with a sock ball) or if that is too radical for the egos of some, go to the sock. But that's just for safety. My stronger argument is that the overemphasis on offense as represented by the hot bat/ball combo and the resultant over-abundance of home runs, especially by pipsqueaks like me, has destroyed the balance of the game I love. It makes a mockery of infielders who can't catch up with balls whizzing by them and of outfielders who can't cover all the gaps and spend too much of their time staring up at a ball sailing well over the fence. Once defense is diminished, then of course smart base running, strategy, the value of the line drive hitter also have less value. With the hot bat/ball combo, batters just whale away. The solution of making a home run an out is ludicrous, but it is one attempt to bring balance back to the over-indulged offense. Let's go back to the balanced beautiful game of our youth—youth?! Why not just the game we loved in the early nineties before the double-wall and composite bats ruined the game. Safety? Sure. Balanced game? Absolutely. If not my solution, you suggest a way to lessen the home run by unworthy batters such as myself, and lessen the superspeed balls hit through the infield and by the pitcher. Remember, I'm the guy who NEVER had a home run in his life for 50 years of playing, and then hit two over the fence in one game with my Ultra II. And I'm the guy who would give up my Miken in a minute for the joy of a balanced game. |
| Dec. 23, 2009 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Is something wrong with tradition? :) Seriously, it is not just for the sake of tradition but sticking a screen in the middle of the infield, besides making the field look like a miniature golf course, seriously affects the game. You are putting up an obstacle for players to have to throw around and the pitcher to have to move around when playing his position. Not to mention you are completely taking defense out of the pitcher position. What self-respecting pitcher wants that to occur? It is so simple. If you can no longer field the position, or don't want to, or choose not to wear some type of protection that you might need, or choose not to work on your defense as much and as hard as you probably do your hitting, those are your choices that others should not have to pay the price for. |
| Dec. 23, 2009 salio2k Men's 60 547 posts | Omar.........Since you are now a home run hitter, you must be in great demand. Just two months ago in Phoenix, the 60 major plus team that won the World Championship, totaled 8 home runs with those hot 1.20 bats. Hell, you would have hit that many just by yourself. Enjoy the notoriety that comes with being a big hitter. |
| Dec. 23, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | This is great guys. We're doing the work, the dirty work the real work of daring to define who we are and what our game really is. I'm with you, Gary about the traditional game but a lively bat and ball are necessary and part of that game. And hitting the ball dead center hard or as hard as you can is a big part of that traditional game. Having to cut a ball or spin a ball is NOT. (Don't kill the messenger) OK. Leverage and smarts on how to swing, counter our losses in natural reaction. Plus, when less to no adrenalin is involved physical performance drops exponentially. So the more tame we make our game the less truly competitive it will be the less adrenalin we'll produce and need and the crappier we'll play. Doesn't getting old have enough draw backs to it without having to lose playing and having fun playing a game we've always played and always loved playing. Maybe I'm just getting the Christmas spirit but I want to apologiz to anyone I've hurt for any reason Kevin to Gary to Maddog to Jimmy the cat who's no longer with us because something tells me when and where it really counts inside and outside of us we're all worth the same, all God's children and all just trying to get along. There's no true bad guys or evil doers in my or Jesus' world. I hopegood will and some Christmas cheer can lessen whatever has happened between Bill Ruth and Stoneman and some real peace can be had by us, everyone on the board and in our community all our families and friends. Sorry, Robert for going after you on my last post. I truly don't want to hurt you anymore because we disagree about bats and balls. Happy Holidays, one and all. |
| Dec. 23, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Sal. Great observation and point. |
| Dec. 23, 2009 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts | Happy holidays back to you,Joe, and everyone else! |
| Dec. 23, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | as usaul joe you have never paid attention to what i have ever posted.i suggested the use(mandatory) of pitcher protection equipment over 6 months back.like i've said before who is gonna pay for all this equipment that a pitcher would need(mask-$40 +,shin guards $40 +,chest protector for the heart another $40 +,there is a min of $120 just for that)oh what about shoes to protect the feet like MLB umps have.ok now with the pitching changes(1-1 count,move rubber,letting the height go up and etc)none of this does anything to protect the pitcher with the hot bat/ball combo we now have,in fact it will prolly get more middle shots as the hitter has less to work with. joe you going after somone is just you trying to bully someone into your way of thinking.does not work with me. omar i completely agree with you,lets bring a little sanity to the game.yes i was able to hit hrs as a youngen,but like you said it getting ridculous when guys who couldn't do it before are now hr hitters.to me it ruins the game as we now have these guys trying to hit a ball over all the time instead of being a team player and getting the basehit they were acustom to doing before the hot bats came to play. also defense is now virtually non-exsistence.i used to pride myself into going in the hole(as a SS)and getting balls,now i need to cheat some to do that and hopefully the batter will hit the way i'm cheating. to add a cut swing is the most natural swing there is,it is what is taught in the MLB,a slight up to down swing is what is perfered,derek jeter has a practice device out that does just that,but i guess he is a nobody,oh well. |
| Dec. 23, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | No one is going to or wants to bully you about anything, Robert. I'd like you to get up and offa me. Don't lose sight of the fact that oftentimes people are reacting to something YOU said when you think they're attacking you. Truth be told, you're not better than anyone, Robert and no one is better than you. |
| Dec. 23, 2009 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | Sal, I AM in greater demand and what a joke. I run about as fast as ten years ago (practice and working out making up for aging loss of strength); I pitch about the same; I field a little worse as reflexes and eyes slow; I'm no smarter as a base runner or knowing when and where to hit depending upon the situation—yet more teams inquire about me because I can hit the long ball with a senior bat. I don't bat third, fourth, or fifth; my average is about the same but my slugging average is up. It's all about offense and I'm the one arguing that technology-created offense is ruining our game. I'm with einstein—I want to return to the traditional game, the one I played in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and early 90s where the hot bat/ball combo of today did NOT exist and there was more balance between the skills of offense and defense, and the thinking of base running and strategy. I used to enjoy watching the smooth fielding shortstop with the rocket arm as much as the home run hitter—I admired them both. Today, give me the shortstop anytime to watch (when he can get to the bat-enhanced screamers through the infield). I am bored by many home run hitters because I know it is so often the result of composite technology, not skill, strength, or technique. |
| Dec. 23, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | OK. You gotta be a lawyer and if not you missed your calling. You express your views artistically and have a tremendous gift for articulation. I'm sad you won't let us know who you are. This is huge thing to us. Now, you say you want to go back to the way the game was always played but as you yourself said, you chose to use hot bats when other bats are available. I play against guys who don't use senior bats in senior tournaments and perhaps they more authentically portray themselves as guys who truly believe that the hot equipment is ruining the game. When I talk about going back to no rules softball, it's only and always with a lively bat and ball combo. It doesn't matter if its a single wall Easton or DeMarini with a good/hot Blue Dot Worth ball. When you hit the ball hard it goes somewhere fast and/or far. You're problem with me and us OK is that you don't represent the most of us. You represent perhaps yourself even though your actions don't match your words as has been pointed out. Most of us want to play with a lively bat/ball combo and again, SSUSA, LVSSA, NCSSA and SPA all have adopted lively bat and ball combos for this year. I don't think you mind that we all disagree with you and that's OK, OK. I think you think the game is better the way you'd like it to be. Personally, I think that it's time for you to stop pitching and let someone else take over the mound. You know, this is a lesson for me, for you and anyone and that is if you listen to someone long enough you can figure out where they're coming from. I have never played a tame game of softball. Don't play co-ed because it's too tame. Have never enjoyed playing with a dead/ restricted flight ball and I will say that most of the players playing senior ball if not all ball would agree with me. Let's be clear. You don't represent the most of us, OK or the heart of us in your desire to play a kinder, gentler game. Competing, dominating, winning are still too important to lots of us. And we love to hit the crap out of the ball. |
| Dec. 23, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Joe I'm with you 38 oz. aluminum bats and blue dot balls and let's go. |
| Dec. 23, 2009 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | Einstein, you're jumping to the wrong conclusions. I'm a competitive athlete, always have been. Been playing league and tournament softball since 1953. And it's not my best sport: not what I lettered in in high school, not another sport I dominated in my 20s. In all these sports, I never stop doing my best and I always play to win. However, I do play to not win at all costs. I don't like winning with enhanced bat technology beyond that which brought us the balanced game of the past decades. I won't cheat to win. I won't go headhunting on a pitcher to win, even in retaliation. I won't dump guys on my team that I am fond of just to win. I won't tell guys they can only be a substitute runner so we can win. I won't just bat the best 10 to win, when all have contributed during the season and paid their own ways. In this sense, we are likely different. I'm not afraid of risk and pain. I have been hit innumerable times since beginning pitching fast pitch from 37 feet. I've broken fingers and my leg playing softball. It is part of the game. Einstein, I like you and your full-bore style of playing. I enjoy watching you put your nose in it. I just think not only are you wrong, but you sure don't represent the majority of senior softball players—major+ guys, maybe, but not the majority who post on this forum, nor older players nor those of less skill who can't play the power game and yearn for a time when their skills were valued. Nonetheless, keep safe in the year ahead and keep playing full out. You are a joy to watch and fun to read. A merry Christmas to you and your loved ones. |
| Dec. 24, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | We disagree about balls and bats and the way the game is approached and won't be respectful enough to tell us who you are. This is fundamental in the realm of "real" men in order to be respected and give respect to others in our community, any community. Perhaps you don't care about bats/balls being neutered because you don't even care enough about us and yourself to share with us who you are. I'm sorry. I think whoever you are would be important and valued member of our community but only if you have the ante to the play the game. No ante - No game. And you couldn't be more wrong about the majority of players and the soul of senior ball especially in NorCal. The game is not and should not change because of an elitist attitude no matter how smart, articulate and cool you are especially if you won't step up to the plate and be one of us. It's consistent with your elitist approach to our game that you not tell us who you are, come to think of it. There's nothing wrong with being wrong or disagreeing about anything but something's not real enough with you and you're cool demeanor. It's never too late to join. From this point on I won't engage you or get involved with anything you post as you continue to maintain a position that is non respectful, separate and "better" than us. |
| Dec. 26, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | well there ya go again joe,omar is as being a legit source for post as you are,does not matter who he is,or where he is from,what does it matter.oh i get it,he's making to much sense for you to argue against.personally if i hadn't met you i would have the same opinion of you and your posts as i do now.as some people have said this is a message board that does not requie all our personal info to be laid out for one and all to get a hold of,no need for that.i just so happen to join this board at the beginning of its inseption,and at that time i didn't feel there would be a prol with putting mine out there,if i had to do it over again i would have my full name on here to be seen. you are being more disrespectful than omar could think of to be,joe get over yourself and get a life please. |
| Dec. 26, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | need to amend above post to say"i would not have put my full name to be seen by everyone" if i had it to do over again. |
| Dec. 26, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Here's another majority opinion, Robert. Over 80 per cent of the guys who post let us know who they really are. I won't bother to explain why because it's so obvious it would be a waste of time but in the community of real men it's important to identify oneself in order to be recognized and participate. Common sense and common human decency. Interestingly, it's not a requirement to post on this board and I never said it was, Robert. At a certain point in time if a post-er wishes to continue to make specific and personal comments and/or be taken seriously by the rest of us, he or she needs to let us know who they are. Common sense and common human decency. Robert, we'd all better served if you tried to stay on issues instead of personalities. Perhaps it's because you really don't have that much to say or your arguments aren't really worth pursuing. |
| Dec. 26, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | as usaul joe you would rather bash someone who doesn't think your way,i personally think its alright to just post b/c in all of the other boards i'm on most of the people there reamin anonymous and guess what,no one has a prol with it,and i mean no one.you have been the only person i have known to have a problem with it on all the boards i'm on,so i guess you are in the minority,again. as i have said before you just type to see yourself type(and also don't read my post's,b/c if you did you would see i stand for a few things,safety,defense in our game and such which you don't),you get on your bully pulpit and holler away thinking b/c you are loud everyone is listening to you. so joe get off your hi horse and leave it alone(the bashing off anyone who disagrees with you). i don't think 50% of the senior ball players will ever agree with you except maybe the M+ players who make up the smallest amount of players in senior ball. |
| Dec. 26, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | You're whole agenda, Robert, is being negative to anything I say and it shows, loud and clear. Are you that insecure about yourself you have to try to make me look bad so you can look good??? Most of the guys on this site, Robert, this one, 80 per cent or so all say who they are and that's what I was talking about. Not some other site or sites. I could give a squat. And are you trying to insinuate that it's not more respectful to identify yourself when attempting to criticize or get personal with other men? Is that what you're trying to say? SSUSA, LVSSA, SPA and NCSSA all have spoken in favor of a lively bat/ball combo. Are they and all those they represent self centered egomaniacs, too? You're obvious, Robert and keep up the good work. You making me look good and for anyone who's seen me that's hard to do. |
| Dec. 26, 2009 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | einstein In my last post, I complimented you on your playing, attitude, and interesting posts that lead to a difference of opinion with other posters. Then I wished you a Merry Christmas. In response, I was called by you “disrespectful”, not a “real man”, “neutered”, no “self-esteem”, no “ante” for the game, “wrong”, “elitist”, “not real”, “separate”, thinking I’m “better” than you and the others. How bizarre. All of this seems to stem from the fact that I am anonymous to you. I have agreed and disagreed with many other posters on the message board over the years, and no one has said they were not going to respond because I am anonymous! Only you. Did I miss something? Is revealing one’s true identity a requirement of this message board? According to SSUSA, I can give my “nickname or handle—what you want us to call you.” Also, “Senior Softball-USA respects your privacy.” Looks like you are the one in the wrong, einstein. And I’m sorry that in the future, that for you there will a lot less discussion on topics and subjects and opinions (I’ve never gone in for disparaging remarks, insults, name-calling, etc.). On this very thread, that YOU began, there are 14 posters so far. Of those, 9 of them, 64%, are anonymous! I wondered if this was an anomaly, so I looked up every single man on the last 20 threads. There were 69 different men and 40 of them, 58%, were anonymous! Being anonymous is the norm, so you will be losing the opportunity to interact with more than half of the posters, including some of your favorite correspondents: Butch17, Dirty, Salio2k, Paco13, spoonplugger, jawood, 4x4, trumpball, LP, JamesLG, wagon487, SLOBALL1, and others. It will be a lonely 2010. Now you may say that you know who some of them are, but I don’t because they have chosen not to identify themselves...and I don’t care. That is their privilege. I am interested in a discussion on issues and topics and the health of senior softball. I don’t have to know who someone is to have a lively and informative exchange of opinions. What am I supposed to do—demand to know their real names so I can call them out and make it personal? I think mad dog has it right. I am making too much sense for you to successfully argue against so you are going to stop corresponding with me. In your post to mad dog, you state that “over 80% of the guys who post let us know who they really are”. Nope, the right figure is only 42%. That’s why I doubt your assertion that the “vast majority” of players want a lively bat/ball combo. I suspect that statistic is as wrong as your assumption about anonymous posters. I will keep posting, and especially trying to revive interest in returning to the balanced softball game of offense, defense, base running, and strategy that was the norm for decades until the technological boom in hot bats of the mid-nineties. I’m sorry if I will be losing hearing your alternative position favoring offense over the other elements of softball. |
| Dec. 26, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Brilliant sounding fluff and I'm just not interested anymore. Knock yourself out. |
| Dec. 26, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | omar ya got to be kidding right,LOL.you do know it is b/c you make to much sense.as you can see,as told by this clown that i never post anything of value.its his way of just trying to bully everyone into his way of thinking.he could care less if anyone would get killed by this hot bat/ball combo,if he did he would be right there trying to really make our game safer and saner to play.personally i could live with the ball if we do away with the senior bat,i still can with with even ASA type bats so it doesn't matter to me and prolly a lot of players.there is just much testosterone going about here.there is no such thing as a"SENIOR RIGHT TO HIT THE BALL SO HARD THAT NO ONE CAN FIELD IT",i'm with you lets get the defense back into the game. by the way for people getting hurt,i've done it myself with batted balls 2 that come to mind particularly is a 3rd baseman who couldn't get down to field a ball at his ankle(and he was 30' back of 3rd),he had to leave the game.next was rcf who had the ball skip and take his knee out(and no it wasn't wet,very dry field),both were done with an ultra-2.so why do we need to be able to hit balls that hard. |
| Dec. 26, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | I only ask that don't dump on all the guys that play Major Plus as we are not all alike. Just because I have an opinion on certain items doesn't mean everybody has the same opinion and the same goes for Joe's opinion. We all know what bat and ball combo's will be used in 2010 so that should put the issue to bed. |
| Dec. 26, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | yeah butch i understand,its prolly where i should be playing also but have no team to do so with here where i'm at in east texas.i still wouldn't be a power hitter tho if i did.as you know i like my hi avg over a mid-avg with hrs.butch you also have someone speaking for you,so you don't need to,LOL. on the bat/ball combo,i could of told ya that 6 months ago.there never was anything in the wind about ss-usa changing thier ball or bat,just a bunch of cry babies who thought they might. |
| Dec. 26, 2009 Mr. Manassas 244 posts | It does seem to me that some people get to full of themselves in these threads. If some people want to stay anonymous why does it matter to anyone else. I agree with Butch in that all players are basically the same and looking to have fun playing softball even if they do have different opinions. |
| Dec. 26, 2009 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | mad dog, a proper defensive stance would have had the 3B's glove at no higher than knee-height on the hit, and probably a bit lower. So before we blame the bat how about checking to see if he was playing his position properly. |
| Dec. 26, 2009 Mr. Manassas 244 posts | Dirt...you are missing the point. The speed through the infield needs to be kept at a reasonable speed. |
| Dec. 26, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | guy is/was a good fielding 3b,he just didn't have time to react,and he was ready,its just that the senior bat is that hot(you know that tech),also think we were using a 47-525 ball,2005,(can anyone help on ball at that time,it was cal-cup) at the time,can't remember. |
| Dec. 26, 2009 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Understood, and I don't advocate the special bats. But my real point was that guys have to do things the right way to try and help themselves before just crying that the equipment is to lively. Just like the pitcher who doesn't move back, doesn't get into a good defensive position, has his glove hanging at his side, gets hit, and then whines about the batter hitting up the middle. We can live without the special bats that no one under 50 can use, but guys still have to do what they can to help themselves before looking for help from others. |
| Dec. 26, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | hey i do all that and still see balls go by me without being able to react.i was a SS in my younger yrs and a good one,but now a days if i'm not cheating(when senior bats are involed) to where i think a hitter might be going its almost impossible to go get them. and also remember we are getting older and reflexes do slow down,don't care what kind of excerise you do.i supposed i could go do a happy gilmore at the local batting cage. |
| Dec. 26, 2009 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | No doubt it is tougher with the Ultras to field, and again I have said many times I don't get why we need to use special bats. But you can't tell me you don't see guys who do little/nothing to help themselves and then just want to whine about the batter hitting the ball up the middle when it is a legitimate part of the field. |
| Dec. 26, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | that i do see(and mostly noobies to the game)but they are few and far between,and i have no pity for them. so many have play 1 position(mostly pitchers) for all thier lives and did a good job at it until these senior bats came out and now have to deal with rockets coming back at them,alls it takes is one small prol with the background,bad bounce and etc to get someone seriously hurt. |
| Dec. 27, 2009 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | It is a sport, there will always be a risk. If we take all the risks out at the expense of the basics of the game we might as well all just go and play checkers. |
| Dec. 27, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | That's always been the case, Robert that the pitcher has to be alert or he's gonna get hurt. That's nothin' new. Why should the whole game change because guys slow down, don't get in shape and don't want to or shouldn't pitch anymore? Keep cryin' the balls are too dangerous and we're going to screens which is looking better and better all the time, to me. Sorry, Gary. Safer is better when it doesn't take away the essence of our game which is hitting the crap out of something with a bat and not having to go to jail for it. Thanks, SSUSA for moving in the direction of the senior softball community with respect to your latest decisions but closer for us is always better. HR's as outs makes significantly more hot balls go through the middle. Ask any long ball guy or would be long ball guy and you'll find out what we already know. Let us swing out have more fun and pitchers will be in less danger of getting pinged. |
| Dec. 27, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | again there is no protection for a pitcher with extra hrs as walks or singles.why is it that you have this very little regard for life that your willing to see someone killed or seriously injure(losing an eye and such)to further your ego to hit a ballover 400'.like i have been saying all along this bat/ball combo is way to hot for older type players.let us have some sanity put back into our game,or you will have the ball(52-275) you dread on seeing,lets use usssa bats at the most. |
