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Discussion: Thoughts on no hit zone

Posted Discussion
Dec. 14, 2009
jwo-9
Men's 60
14 posts
Thoughts on no hit zone
Just a few thoughts about the no hit zone. It isn't just a two foot zone when you think about it. Any pitcher worth being called a pitcher will now back up at an angle to the left or right of the pitchers rubber to help cover the hole between second and short or between second and the second baseman rather than back straight up now that he does not have to defend the middle two feet. For those of us that are base hitters not power hitters this takes away a hugh area that we normally use. This couild be as much as 8-10 feet depending on the pitchers ability. Witha ball hit in this area the pitcher can have 1 of 3 things happen 1. catch it 2. deflect it to a team mate 3. get hit by a ball that would not have hit him if defending the middle. The PPR was awful but this worse. I can only hope that when the powers that be think about how much room they are really taking away and they don't wait to make a change. Anyone else see it this way.
Dec. 14, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
jwo-9

I see it the same way. Awful rule.
Dec. 14, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
jwo-9,yep.sometimes where i play(with the kids) they have a no-fly box and it does take away a lot of where i have to defend as a pitcher.i do wish they would rethink this rule also.
Dec. 14, 2009
pushin60
Men's 60
63 posts
This rule is so wrong I can't believe they even brought it up for a vote. The only way they should enforce this is if the pitcher stays in the 24-inch zone. If he leaves it, even a part of one of his feet, all bets should be off.
Dec. 15, 2009
jwo-9
Men's 60
14 posts
mad dog I can remember when as kids 8 9 and 10 years old when we could not get 9 on a team we closed a field to play. It seems that the ill conceived no hit zone must appeal to the adult decision makers as well. If this is the best they can come up with as adults maybe we should turn the decision making over to our grandchildren. Come on SSUSA STAFF man up like we were taught as kids admit our mistakes and correct them. You don't need a survey to realize this is a screw up.
Dec. 15, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
jwo,thinking of the good ol days,yeah that was fun.hell we were doing good to get nine total kids for both teams.
Dec. 15, 2009
JLD930
Men's 55
67 posts
I agree that this rule is crazy and the more they try to modify it the worse it gets. At this point they would be better to require a screen to take the subjectivity out of it for umpires. If they truly are interested in safety that would probably be the safest. That said I think the entire rule should be scrapped.
Dec. 15, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Whoever said that safety is 100% guaranteed? Or that is should be?

There is an inherent and should be accepted risk in most all sports, and while this is only slow-pitch softball it should be no exception. Why do some of us have to have our game changed beyond recognition for those who apparently aren't willing to accept that implied risk?

A screen? Please..........
Dec. 15, 2009
JLD930
Men's 55
67 posts
I agree that this rule is crazy and the more they try to modify it the worse it gets. At this point they would be better to require a screen to take the subjectivity out of it for umpires. If they truly are interested in safety that would probably be the safest. That said I think the entire rule should be scrapped.
Dec. 15, 2009
JLD930
Men's 55
67 posts
Obviously I am not advocating a screen but what they are trying to do makes even less sense.
Dec. 15, 2009
Brock
Men's 65
46 posts
I don't get on here very often but I have to agree with all of you and I feel strongly about this also. You're actually taking more than two feet out of the middle that no longer needs to be defended. If one hits a pitch that is on the inside of the plate past the right corner of the pitching box, add another foot before it passes second base. The same is true if you take an outside pitch and hit it past the left corner of the pitching box. I haven't done the geometric calculations but I'm sure you now have three feet or more on either side of second base that no longer needs to be defended, six feet total. What we had before doesn't protect the pitcher and what we have now won't either. Infielders, especially SS and 2nd base were always helped by an excellent fielding pitcher because they could help plug the 5/6 and 3/4 holes because they knew they didn't have to defend the middle. Now nobody has to defend the middle no matter how good or bad the pitcher fields. The answer still is that pitchers need to take steps to protect themselves. This new rule is not the answer.
Dec. 15, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4359 posts
Maybe it's a precursor to another rule or addendum to No fly, to add "If an errant pitched or foul ball hits the UMP, Pitcher\mgr\team receives a warning. Second time ejection from game, if it is the same pitcher."

More likely, it is what is going to come about relating to equipment we love to use... IE: bats &\or balls.

That will suck, but if you think about both sides of the coin here, assn v players, and all concerns each side has, what else is there?

One step is this poll that needs to have a great response to.

Too bad it wasn't made where the tabulations at least for the multiple choice, would be viewable.
And we would know as the results flow.

Forecast, currently it's raining, 10 day outlook drizzle through to next week sometime.
Future outlook shows it may turn to overcast or sunny days ahead... your forecast is as good as mine on that one.
Earthquakes, tornadoes and hurricanes may too, elevate the weather alert warning system...
Oh yea, time will tell quite a lot.


Dec. 15, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
247 posts
The sad thing about this rule is most if not all of Pitchers take pride in their defense. Here's one vote for SSUSA to recommend that Pitchers use protective equipment and let's play ball,we don't want or need all these rule changes.
Dec. 15, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4359 posts
There was a time, Umps & catchers didn't wear gear, batters & runners didn't wear helmets, you could wear spikes, there wasn't a double 1st base or a line to cross or another home plate, the mound was a lot closer... the list goes on... why, all in the name of safety. But they are there now.
That's why the worry should be thought about, for the bats and 'balls'.
I feel it coming. It is all a very slow process and round about way, leading up to it.

Darn visions coming in from Cleo again, on another post... lol


Dec. 15, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Scott, I still don't see umps or catchers wearing any equipment, at least not in slow-pitch. Eliminating metal spikes was kind of silly, 14 year old kids can wear them. The double first base is fine, I guess, but mainly put in because of too many clumsy first basemen who don't know the proper way to play the position.

And don't get me started on the second home plate. If we can slide into second and third, how is home any different?
Dec. 15, 2009
Gary Heifner
248 posts
Maybe this will work if the rule also states that if the pitcher steps outside the pitchers rubber and the ball goes up the middle over the rubber or the pitcher is hit by a batted ball and he is outside the rubber, there is no out called. In other words an out is called only when the pitcher is behind the rubber.
Dec. 15, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
taits,

There have been changes through the years in all sports baseball, football, basketball, motor sports, boxing on and on, not just softball.
Dec. 15, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4359 posts
Gary S,
Point was that all sports changed rules regarding safety equip. It is coming.
And agreeing on the 6 foot height up but not below doesn't solve anything either. What about the little gut that can't reach up that high... lol Only kidding.
Bad rule, effect is, massive confusion & job loss, same old story.

Gary H.,
Still no "protection" which is their crusade. Pitcher going after the ball is a a big part of his job. Rule will be as the other, not uniformly consistent, defined or what ever, let alone it still takes from the pitchers job.
If he's worried about a whack, wear gear, stay home, DH or play another position are a few options.
Dec. 15, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Dirty,

I disagree about first basemen more about guys running inside the foul line. I know my brother in the younger years got hit by a runner as he was stretched for a throw and broke his leg. No workmans comp. for that.

I have plenty of scars around knees from guys either not knowing how to slide or intentionally coming high with metal spikes. I think it was more of the injuries caused by spikes getting caught causing broken ankles and damaged knees is why metal was banned.
And yes there was a fight or two after the slide.

I'm not saying softball is not with out risks but more in line with new safety wall in Nascar, not throwing at the hitter in baseball etc.

Should be able to slide at any base if you choose.
Dec. 16, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
butch, you might very well be correct. Kind of sad guys at this age don't know how to run bases, but I guess it is what it is.

I liked metal spikes. Was dissapointed when they were banned, especially when my 14 year old could wear them but his 40 year old father couldn't.

And I still don't understand why it is unsafe to slide into home when the entire play is in front of the catcher but okay to slide into second when the 2B has his back to the runner as he waits for a throw to come in from left field.
Dec. 16, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
what prol is there with not sliding at the extra plate at home,ya all know that sliding slows you down,same as the guy who tries to slide into first,not to bright,run thru it as it is faster to do.
Dec. 16, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
My point was to eliminate the second plate and just use home as it was intended. There is only one second base and third base and we all get by just fine.
Dec. 17, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4359 posts
Two reasons it was changed; collisions (like at 1st) and hit by thrown balls, again like first base or any other bag on occasion. Lines or 2nd plate now used primarily.
Dec. 17, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Scott, I still don't see how these would be anymore likely to happen at home than at second or third. Yet there is only one second base, one third base, you have to be tagged out at both (not counting legit force plays), and sliding is permitted into both of them.
Dec. 17, 2009
lazer larry
Men's 50
96 posts
Dirty, i think the reason for the double home plate is there is still guys that would roll a catcher if they get the chance and i'm sure we could pick out a few. at first base there are guys that clip you when you have your foot next to the bag and not on it. Lazer
Dec. 17, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
larry won't do any good to try and explain.
Dec. 17, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Gary, they say great minds think alike
and I'm finding that we're agreeing
on lots of stuff...
Right on about one home plate
and sliding into it.
It's when they made changes
for the "betterment" of the game
that invited challenging and countering
what is proposed and being used.
I would go back tomorrow
to lively bats and balls
and no "senior" rules
and play the game
the way God intended us to.
No courtesy runners, none of it.
But if there's gonna be special rules
then signal conflict of interests, opinions, views and the SSDS,
the senior softball debating society.



Dec. 17, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4359 posts
That's way off and you know it, but I guess that's why Fast pitch is still so popular, yet neither of you play it...10 fielders, steelin\ sliding at all bases\plate, good balls and unlimited Hr's...
Change games.
Your gonna get a shock treatment down the road.
Dec. 17, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Joe,

Thanks you bring a smile to my face its been 35 years or so since I have heard the aluminum Howards 38oz. bat called lively. Thank you!
Dec. 17, 2009
JamesLG
300 posts

Taits:

I believe you are right in your statement about a shock treatment down the road. It will most likely be a major change in the ball and ultimately drive a lot of guys into retirement or to other associations. The only other option would be a soft ball that will perform but that may take too much of an investment to develope. I feel bad for the younger guys coming into senior ball who have been gearing up to play our game. I am nearing the end of my playing days so it is not as big of a deal to me as it would have been a couple years ago.

Thanks:

James
Dec. 18, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Larry (sad dog, you are still a D-bag), so those same guys won't try to "roll" an infielder at second or third? And only old guys try to "roll" people, hence the kids can play with only one home plate? Makes no sense.

No one is addressing how home plate is any different than second or third. If anything it is SAFER. The play is in front of the catcher, not behind him like many plays at second.
Dec. 18, 2009
lazer larry
Men's 50
96 posts
Dirty, for 1 thing the kids can get back off the ground a little easyer than i and most others. I truely haven't seen anyone taken out at 2nd violently(didn't want to say dirty). Plus when you go into 2nd or 3rd you plan on hanging on to the bag to be safe, at home your going across the plate. Thats my reasoning. In my years i've just seen more things broken at the plate. Just my opinion. Maybe right or wrong. Butch17, no beers in the parking lot tonight, the wifes got the BIG H operation tomorrow and i have to be on my best behavior. Lets go back to the old days when only a few hit the home runs and they weren't 4-500 footers to feed somebodys EGO. Butch i know you hit the middle at times and you know how to do it and stay off the pitcher as well. Thats because you are a true hitter. Lazer
Dec. 18, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Larry, I see what you are saying. Personally I have not seen many catchers taken out because of the "slide or give up" rule whereas I have seen many middle infielders taken out (legally) as they should be trying to turn a double play.
Dec. 18, 2009
lazer larry
Men's 50
96 posts
Dirty, good point, it's usually the guys standing flat footed that get hurt what ever position their playing. We had the slide rule also, but some of the slides were questionable. If a guy wants to get you he will. But paybacks are a MFer. My cousin had his leg broke catching and that just sticks in my mind.Lazer
Dec. 18, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
if they do try and roll ya at 2nd or 3rd,(if you don't slide) it is an out and if turning a DP you also get the 2nd out for interfernce.
also any throw from right field will leave the catcher not being able to look at what the runner is doing.
Dec. 18, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Sure it is an out if they stay standing and cause a collision, but guys who know what they are doing break up the double play legally. Or slide legally into the base to try and avoid the tag.

And the catcher has a MUCH better view of the runner on a throw from right than the second baseman does on a throw from left, yet you are allowed to slide into a single, second base.
Dec. 18, 2009
stick8
1282 posts
How many times have you heard a player argue "don't they have to slide or give themselves up"? I'm not certain about SSUSA but in USSSA there is no rule that says that. There is a rule that says a base runner can't crash into a fielder attempting to make a tag. As far as the second home plate I could take it or leave it but it boggles my mind why some senior associations don't allow runners to slide into the second home plate. AFAIC, it should be slide at your own risk.
Dec. 18, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
but stick there is no sense in sliding to a base like that(home)as it slows ya down,just run thru it.
and you are right,most all assoc's don't require you to slide,but like you say ya can't crash into someone.
Dec. 18, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4359 posts
Dirty, basic safety rule is or was down or away to avoid the collision. Haven't read on it for here... But that is what I do.
No need to do at home anyway here.
They still happen for many reasons though player concentrating on ball and not where runner is. Needs to move across base path on occasion to make catch 7 play, etc. Or runner concentrating on both ball and where he is in relation to say do I try for another doesn't see fielder moving to make catch then play in front or to the side more likely and they collide.
Dec. 18, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Lazer,

Hope all is well and wife recoups quickly so you can get to the parking lot. Thanks for the kind words and you also can hit it. I agree go back to old days when there were true home run hitters and true hitters not manufactered ones.

Happy Holidays to you and your family.
Dec. 18, 2009
stick8
1282 posts
I agree mad dog but ever since I was a kid (and I suspect most others might agree with this) that sliding was taught and instilled in us as a means to reach a base safely and to avoid being tagged. For me it's just instinct and habit. Old habits are hard to break.
Pretty soon someone will get the brilliant idea that they're going to allow runners to overrun second and third base.
Dec. 18, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
stick, let's hope not but the way some guys seem hellbent on ruining the game it wouldn't surprise me.
Dec. 19, 2009
DMac
Men's 60
185 posts
One thing you sliding purists should keep in mind is that at second and third the runner usually has a level surface to slide on. As bad as some of these batter's boxes get dug up, it is dangerous at home plate and I am happy to avoid that situation.
Dec. 19, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Too late Stick,
Senior Olymipics has the run thru, has for many years. And so it begins!
Face it boys, sliders will slide, the rest of us wish we were fast enough to make sliding worth while.
Rules state Slide or avoid. Seems simple enough.
Dec. 19, 2009
stick8
1282 posts
Dirty a can of worms has been opened.
Dec. 19, 2009
stick8
1282 posts
E/4E/6 a old lawyers league that I used to umpire that had that rule. No sliding was permitted unless you actually rounded the base--they'd let you slide to get back. It was weird watching a guy run to second and then keep going into left field or run to third and run into the dugout. But it was their league, they rented the fields, supplied the balls and made the rules. But they paid $40 game to the umps and had a real nice dinner banquet at the end of every year. I didn't mind it too much.
Dec. 19, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Perhaps, stick, perhaps.

The kids play on the same fields with the same batter's boxes that we do, and they are able to slide into home just fine.
Dec. 19, 2009
Omar Khayyam
994 posts
For years the Northern California Senior Softball Association, a large association of 100+ teams, allowed running through every bag, not just first and home. It avoided a lot of collisions, but it was particularly easy on aging knees. Those who wanted to slide would slide. If you overran second or third, you had to go back and touch in order to continue to the next base. Just rescinded two years ago, but lots of 65+ and older would like to see it return to allow them to keep playing longer.
Dec. 19, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Dirty, you know what they say about OLD bones. Those kids have rubber bones, we have bones turning to glass.

Stick, nice to get spoiled now and then wasnt it? =)

Omar, seems to me it would serve us well in non qualifiers.
Dec. 20, 2009
lazer larry
Men's 50
96 posts
Dirty, it's funny we can have a civil conversation and disagree on some issues. Unlike some other jokes, i mean folks. Let pitchers field their position, if they feel the need, wear the gear. I won't belittle them. They have my upmost respect for their ability to play that position. Pitch throw strikes, backpeddle and field. The rest of us are min. 30' farther back and standing there ready. Dirty,Stick,Butch,Ray and all my teamates and friends i've met in Senior Softball, Have a Happy and Safe Holidays. O yea how many days until spring, Can't wait. Lazer Larry
Dec. 20, 2009
DCPete
234 posts
The difference is about 80% of the plays at the plate are Tag plays vs 80% of the plays at 2nd or 3rd are Force plays.
There are very few collisions, fights, injuries etc. on Force plays.
Dec. 20, 2009
stick8
1282 posts
Dirty I have no issue with sliding. I've been doing it for 40+ years and it'll always be part of me.
Larry did you get my e-mail back about a month ago?
Dec. 20, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
yep to all 4 posts above me,old bones break easier,heal slower,most plays at the plate will be on tag plays,as the other bases most will be force outs.
yes the pitcher has to do a multitude of things at his position compared to the other positions on the field.
hey guys happy holidays and be safe.
Dec. 20, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Here is a democratic solution. Guys who can't slide, or who choose not to, don't. Guys who still can, keep the game the way it should be and let them.
Dec. 20, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4359 posts
Since WHEN did ANY assn become diplomatic.
Get Real.
Just how did sliding get into the thread about the zipper zone? Oh, that was you dirty, and your metal cleat issue...
That won't go back ass-wards that's for sure.
You can't live in the past, but it's nice to be able to remember it.
Dec. 20, 2009
stick8
1282 posts
I agree Dirty. Slide if you can, if you can't, don't.
Dec. 20, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
Dec. 19, 2009
DMac
Men's 60
142 posts
One thing you sliding purists should keep in mind is that at second and third the runner usually has a level surface to slide on. As bad as some of these batter's boxes get dug up, it is dangerous at home plate and I am happy to avoid that situation.

yes DMAC,that is a prol for a lot of fields,even as a kid i sprained a knee on a bad batters box with a raised plate to boot.can't imagine what would of happen to my old knees if i did that.
Dec. 21, 2009
Webbie25
Men's 60
1974 posts
I would hate to be the ones actually writing these rules, because, like politics, there is a wide diversity of opinions. That being said, I hope they revisit this no-hit zone rule and take it out. It still does not protect the pitcher. Actually, nothing will 'protect' the pitcher. It is going to happen, has happened for my 41 yrs playing the game, and will continue to happen. No rule will stop it. I never try to go at a pitcher, but in 500-600 at bats in a season or more, a few shots will go up the middle, albeit unintentionally. Nobody hits it where they want EVERY time. I agree every pitcher knows the risk is inherent with the position. Equipment is available for protection. Trying to legislate a 'safe' zone is a losing battle. Let's play. (Take out the actual rubber and draw a line. The only function of a rubber is to deflect a ball into a pitcher's face!!!)
As far as sliding goes, I still love to slide. I have no brakes left, with my knees, standing up going into a base and it is the easiest way to stop.
The second home plate-overall it is a good idea, but maybe in AAA, Major, and Major-plus you might consider the regular home plate for the highly competitive.
Dec. 21, 2009
neck10
493 posts
dirty why would catcher or ump need protection foul balls are going maybe 5MPH VS batted balls at pitcher 100MPH what dont you understand??????
Dec. 21, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Maybe I forgot something, but where did I say that they do.

mad dog, if you don't want to slide at home fine, that is your decision. But why take it away from those who want to, and can?
Dec. 21, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Right on Webbie.
But when you let guys take the ball deep
without penalty then "the unwritten" rule
of stay off the pitcher is in force
and we can strengthen it so only
sheer accidents will come through the box.
Anyone who knows us and our game
would be aware that the best way
to protect the pitcher is from us,
within us and not from any legislation.
Dec. 21, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Joe,

We have listened to your idea about home runs as outs, guys saving home runs until later in the game so they go middle and this is just another of your smoke screens.

I have played for and against teams that said the exact same things when they were singles after the limit.

Maybe you should be in politics. :)
Dec. 21, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Joe,

We were playing in a tourney this year and when I went back to my room there was a softball game between the USA and Canada, players way better than you or I, and to my dismay guess what? They had HOME RUN LIMITS and were outs after. I just could not believe the best players in the country had damn limits and no senior bats!! USA won.
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