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Discussion: poll:who would like

Posted Discussion
Dec. 26, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
poll:who would like
to see a more even game for the senior play,(we basically know everyone wants to hit the ball a country mile,but what our we losing in the mean time).by this i mean bringing back defense,strategy( to include running,righting oppo to move runners,etc).please don't make this a personlly soap box for hot bat/ball combo,just want to know who wants a more all around game to come back.please just post.
Dec. 26, 2009
Mr. Manassas
227 posts
I agree that there is more to softball than the Homerun, but I do not want the homerun removed from the game...we don't have to hit the ball 50 yards over the fence. There has to be a happy medium.
Dec. 26, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2647 posts
Sorry Bob, the only way that I would like to see games closer would be for the team that had the lesser atleticism and skills become better. I don't think outcomes of games should be the result of changes in rules and equipment.
Dec. 26, 2009
Mr. Manassas
227 posts
You know in the last 40 years I have seen the balls and bats change many times and more likely than not the "same" better teams generally won.
Dec. 26, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Athleticism and skills in slow-pitch softball come in terms of defense and base running, NOT hitting. Face it guys, it does not take nearly as much athleticism to hit a big ball moving slowly as it does to read a batted ball, react to it, field it cleanly, and make a strong and accurate throw. So if athleticism and skills are what we are looking for, then more defensive opportunities have to be brought back into the game. Not to mention the elimination of the courtesy runner rule that is often abused by slow, unathletic guys who can hit there way on but not do much of anything else once they get on base.

And I totally agree, the better teams find a way to win no matter the equipment, conditions, etc.

Didn't Trevino once say "I will beat you using my equipment, and then I will beat you using yours"? He knew, no matter the equipment, he was the better golfer.
Dec. 26, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
bruce i think the better team will most always come out ahead and win,i'm just saying why not have an over all game not just hr derby's.that kind of game is only enjoable to the offensive type team.
mr m,i'm not saying do away with the hr,but make the equipment more conducive to an over all game,where all aspects come into play.
Dec. 26, 2009
Mr. Manassas
227 posts
I agree...the complete game is superior to the homerun derby. Mr. mud...I think that the skill of hitting is just as important to the game as the defence is.
Dec. 26, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Hitting is just as important, but should not be made as disproportionatley moreso as it is now.

And, let's be honest, it takes much more skill and athleticism to be a good defensive player than to be a good hitter in slow-pitch.
Dec. 26, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
ok so what is your avg.i don't know of anyone who hits a 1.ooo do you hit that.i can't,or anyone else i know of.
Dec. 26, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
What does that have to do with anything? You actually believe hitting a big ball moving slowly is as difficult as reading the ball, tracking it, fielding it cleanly, and then making a strong and accurate throw?
Dec. 26, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
b/c i can field a ball at 1.000 % quicker and easier than batting it.if its so easy why do teams constantly change sides,in your opinion the visting team would hit for the whole game and never take the field.
Dec. 26, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
HUH??????????????

Just because something is easier doesn't mean anyone can be perfect at it.

Tell you what, you take a team of lumbering "hitters" and I will take a team of athletes and let's see who wins the game.
Dec. 26, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
HUH ???? back at ya.of course athletes will play better whats your point,duh.they should be able to do both,field and hit.its like saying take 8 daivd ortiz's in the field vs 8 derek jeter's,so again whats your point..
Dec. 26, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
If we get rid of the composite, and Titanium bats, we can play 300' with the hardest ball on the market today and eliminate the issue of everyone being able to hit Hr's.
We know this isnt going to happen. We also know the rules arent changing in this regard.
Lodgically the 325+ fences may be the answer. The question is, what cities want to make the changes needed, how many can afford to or have the additional land necessary?
Our sport is like most aspects of modern day living. Dollar driven.
Dec. 27, 2009
Lefty
Men's 65
469 posts
I agree with Bruce. I guess there's super hitters on the west coast cause out here in the east we can only hit 3 home runs is you have a AAA team and than if you hit one out you are out. So sometimes it hurts to have a good ball for more guys can hit it out. Last year all we were hitting was socks and I didn't hear anyone saying this is more fun. I know I didn't like hitting a real bad ball. A cheap ball the TD makes more money. A good ball and a USSSA bat the ball still fly. Give me an average ball that does not die after 5 hits and I'll be happy.
Dec. 27, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2647 posts
Dirty, "Athleticism and skills in slow-pitch softball come in terms of defense and base running, NOT hitting".
I guess I've been wrong all these years! I thought it took a lot of skill and practice to be able to hit .800-.950! I'll take a team that hits in this range over a good defensive and running team that hits .300-.500!! From your reply you lead us to believe that many players hit over .800. I find that usually there are only 2 or 3 at the most per team that accomplish this.
E4/E6, I'd love to see us go to single wall bats, ones that couldn't be doctored. I hope senior softball never goes back to utrip or ASA bats. I've seen wood bat tournaments, maybe SSUSA or SPA could add a wood bat or single wall national sometime in the near future.
Dec. 27, 2009
17Black
Men's 50
219 posts
I play for an AA Team based out of Ohio. Our "League" plays on fences that are only 290' and four feet high.

We play with the same balls and bats that SSUSA plays with.

I just went through our League stats from this summer and our team "Only" hits 1.125 Home Runs Per Game, and that is why we elect to play AA (one home run per game) Being honest, if we played on 300' fences that were 8' tall, our home runs (In Ohio) would have been cut 50% or more. Not many HR's cleared the fence by very much, most of the time.

When we played in Vegas in November, our team shocked ourselves by not only reaching our home run limit in EVERY GAME (300' fences and the other complex had outfield fences that were about 15'+ tall) but we went over our limit in every game.

Not only were we hitting 3-4-5+ home runs per game, many of those homers were 40-75 (and more) feet over the fence.

I guess my point is, playing in places where the "air is thin" or where the tempertures are warmer in some parts of the country do not equal other locations.

I'm personally new to SSUSA and enjoyed playing in Vegas. Obviously, having events in cities like that or Florida, should in "theory" draw more teams.

However, my true belief is our team is NOT even a AAA team, and definately not Major, or Major + ( we only have four guys on our roster who hit more than two home runs during our season on 290 fences for goodness sakes)

It appears that the 10 home runs in the upper divisions is rarely reached.

MAYBE-----In the Lower Divisions (AA and AAA) with ONE and THREE limit home runs rules---maybe---consider going to a "ONE UP" home run rule??? (Both teams have ONE or THREE, you can hit another until you both do?

We had one guy who hit his ONLY home run of All of 2009 in Vegas (and he also did the same in 2008) Taking the guys who can hit home runs legitimately out of the game)

LOL in our league we run the bases on home runs, and a couple of guys who ran all the way around to home plate were accused of showing the other team up by not stopping at first ???????

Trust me, we were not doing that, but these guys were not used to hitting many (if any home runs) and flew 2000 miles to enjoy ourselves.
Dec. 27, 2009
Webbie25
Men's 60
1973 posts
Mad dog and BruceinGa, I agree with you, and have posted a couple times to backing off the bats. It does not have to be a major cut, but just take the edge off it. I still have the orange crush bat from a few years ago. It has plenty of pop, if you hit it well. However, you are not as 'rewarded' for slight mis-hits as you are now. I do remember the C405 single wall that Demarini came up with and it also had plenty of pop to it. I do not want to see 5-4 games regularly, and I don't think anyone else does. It does not have to be backed off that far. I know, $$$$$$. I know the bat manufacturers will still make out. Adjusting is part of the business world.
Also, E/4,E/6, I like your attitude about the well rounded game. The 325 fences is a lot of area to cover for 50, 55, 60 yr old outfielders. All of our arms are not nearly what they used to be. However, in lieu of slightly less explosive bats, that seems to be the best answer-the 325 fences. I would rather hit a decent ball with a less lively bat. (Then I have nobody to blame but myself, lol).
Dec. 27, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
bruce,webbie,E4/E6,lefty:nobody wants to hit a ball that dies after a couple of innings.i think we can use ASA or USSSA bats and still be ok with present ball.we all know that seniors will not cheat(according to joe)so using these bats should be ok.also going to the 325' fence for seniors might be a bit much,to much ground to cover for senior players.
next yr i will have played with the 52-275 ball for usssa and can give another review of this ball.
Dec. 27, 2009
Player25
Men's 55
51 posts
My vote would be to reduce the liveliness of the current combo. Not saying to take it back far enough to remove the Hr but back to the effect of the 38oz bat and original blue dot ball. Reality: The senior bats are here to stay. The companies supply too much sponsorship money to the senior associations. IMO the ball is the thing to change. That way the players would not need to spend more money on new bats. I much prefer the all around game to hr derby. Also think the courtesy runners should be limited per inning. Do like the 2 home plates for safety.
Dec. 27, 2009
Omar Khayyam
994 posts
Dirty, your line "to read a batted ball, react to it, field it cleanly, and make a strong and accurate throw" was poetry and quite the norm before the composite bats.

I played against a smooth shortstop in the single wall days and that was his game and a joy to watch. Now he just sticks an arm out and hopes to snag a ground ball. Sure his reflexes have slowed, but mostly the ball is coming much faster in this age of composites.

Return to the balanced game where offense, defense, base running, and strategy were equally important. There will still be home runs by legitimate home run hitters, and there will still be lots of scoring. We deserve a game where every player, whether a smart player, or a defensive guru, or a demon on the base paths, or a reliable singles hitter, or the big boomer has an important role to play.
Dec. 27, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Omar, I cannot find a single thing in your last post to disagree with.
Dec. 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I've seen games with Major Plus 50 teams
with the wind blowing out where none
or one or 2 home run were hit all game.
There are lots of pitchers who are consistently able to keep big hitters off balance and
in the park with lively bats and balls.
Billy from Evolution,
Mickey Hughes, Randy and Flip
from the Mavericks,
Ray from Redwood City Reds,
Brownie from East Bay Oldies
just to name a few.
And pitching is defense last I checked.
Now, who says that defense is not important
when the bat/ball combo is lively
and hat planet is he living on?
It's even more important
as only good to very good fielders
will successfully execute outs,
make attempts or get in front of balls
hit at "Miken" speed.

You cannot argue against using
a lively bat/ball combo.
The needs and benefits
are too many to count.
To attempt to do so is ignorance or myopia
or the presence of other interests and agendas.
Using a poor bat/ball combo
will kill the game whether senior or kids
and encourage more players to "fix" bats and more doctors to "fix" 'em.

Now, if someone can make a ball that's
lively AND safe and fields, sounds, bounces and feels good, then we might have something
to talk about.
Dec. 27, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joe, I have to ask this.

Are you really willing to play with a friggin screen in the middle of the infield if it means guys will continue to be able to use equipment that allows them to do in their 50s and 60s what many could not do in their 20s and 30s?

I hate to think it, but it might actually come to this and those who advocate/insist on the special bats must be willing to make that choice.
Dec. 27, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Gary we already know the answer to that.
Dec. 27, 2009
Davy
12 posts
Perspective from a 70's Major player who is 5'6" and 140 lbs. I play a decent ss, 2nd and 3rd and run like the wind, a singles hitter with good average and on base per %, also courtesy runner several times a game. Do I like the Miken Ultra 2? Of course when I'm hitting because of the sweet spot and ability to hit where you want to. But forget about my defense when playing the power teams. My range isn't important anymore so the arm is not a factor. Can't run down a bullet when its already by you. Unless its a tight game, my base running speed doesn't mean much as the next guy can hit it over the fence. If there were no courtesy runners the importance of the pure power guy would be reduced, thats one way to increase the balanced game. After all in baseball, you are out of the game if someone runs for you. A start would be only one courtesy runner per inning and that runner only once per game.
My vote of course goes to the balanced game, not the HR derby.
Dec. 27, 2009
stever
Men's 65
62 posts
I have to agree with Bruce. We went to the SPA, ISA, and SSUSA Nationals this year. We didn't win any of them, but we could have if we had played better. We didn't lose any of them because of the home run rule, the PPR, or the equipment. We lost because we were outplayed. The tournaments were very competitive and one or two more hits or one or two less errors would have made the difference in most games. I think there are too many people who advocate changing rules or equipment because it is easier than working to make themselves or their teams better. There are four different categories in senior softball. The trick is to find the right level to play at where you are not in over your head, but at the same time must step up your performance to be successful. Nobody is entitled to play Major or Major Plus just because they are 50 or 55 or 60 or, whatever. It seems like many of the proposed rule or equipment changes are attempts to neutralize the physical advantages of the better players just so others can compete with them. Everyone plays with the same rules and equipment so how can that not be a "level playing field?"
Dec. 27, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
We can talk about working harder to make ourselves better and healthier players, but lifes reality says we are still aging faster then our minds tell us.
Would I like to play like I did at 20, 30, 40,? Of course I would, but reality tells me it isnt going to happen. Age takes over, the only game we cant win.
Damn I want to make plays that I know I should. But now know I cant. Do I stop trying, of course not.
Ever see a ball hit so hard and fast you have to turn your head to see it make the first bounce as it whizzes by.
Hell I am at the point of throwing my foot at the sound as it passes by, hoping it hits me to slow it down.
Why? Those wonderful, crazy, Senior Bats. We love em, we hate em, we use em.
We could be using a sock with the current bats and it wouldnt affect our game all that much.
When do we put an end to rule changes? When we no longer recognize our game?

Dec. 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Gary.
I don't want screens or anything but lively bats
and balls and let's play.
But if we have to go to a restricted flight ball,
put up the screens and let's play and have
huge fun with hot, LVSSA level balls.

SSUSA, LVSSA, SPA and NCSSA
all have decided to use very good Trump Stote
level 44x375 balls a la 2009
and senior bats for 2010.
That's good enough for me
and the most of us, too.
And anyone who thinks senior bats
are too hot can swing ASA or USSSA
or wooden or Bombats,
whatever the "consciences" will allow.
Dec. 27, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
E4/E6,you are so right.for my senior league here i play SS and we use ASA equipment(bats and balls)and i can go get balls in the hole,up the middle and such,and yes we do have fun playing.the guys who can hit it out still do,base hitters work on that part of thier game.with the senior bats in tourney's i have to be cheating where i think the batter might be going,and even than its still not a given with the speed senior bats put on the ball.when i have pitched with the kids i can still go side to side some to field balls,but when i've pitch senior ball its throw a glove out there and hopefully its in the right place,ask butch about that(huntsman games).personally i do think it would be better for our game to tone it down some b/c of aging and such,don't care what the ego maniacs have to say.we never have played hr derby in our game why start it now.there is no such thing as a requirement that senior players have to hit a ball farther and harder now than they ever did.that is a total false hood being spread by someone who doesn't care about life or limb for the senior player.so for those who care about thier fellow senior player lets keep pushing for a saner and safer game.
Dec. 28, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
I have an idea for those of "YOU" who want to keep the HOT equipment thats changed our game like no rule ever will.
Lets dodge .44 Magnum rounds. Odds are you wont get hit right away. And hey, they will easily clear 300" at a much faster rate then a .357 Magnum or a 44/375 off a Senior Bat.
Maybe its time for a Composite and or Senior Bat Tournament Series. Like the Wooden Bat Tournaments.
What I am reading by some on this site seems like a lack of caring about a good percentage of senior players, those whose reflexes and abilities are waning, but who still want to play. I have read words from a 70 year old confessing the issues of age and how fast the ball gets by him. But still uses the Senior equipment to stay competitive.
Look past the younger brackets, look past your own Divisions, look at the real pioneers of our sport, 65, 70, 75+
These are the guys who gave us our game. IMO they deserve their game back more then anyone.
Before someone jumps on me, let me tell you, I love hitting Senior bats, but I also remember being able to field the ball on a more consistant basis.
People talk about game scores only being 5-4 or 6-5, without new tech equipment, thats BS, our games were never that low even with Wooden Sticks. Granted they werent 60-20, or 55-30 either. How fun those games must have been.
Dec. 28, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1006 posts
No opinion either way but didn't ISSA have the equipment set to a lesser combo and if I'm not mistaken their tournaments were almost a footnote due to lack of interest. I believe they brought back the more lively combo for the start of their 2009 season with alot of success. If I'm wrong please correct me. Thanks
Dec. 28, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Joe,

You are right they did last year. That is why I don't understand all the debate. Each organization have their own rules so all you have to do is pick and choose which ones you will or will not attend. Should be end of discussion.
Dec. 28, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Vegas Winter Worlds: 9 M+ teams in attendance. Out of 150 teams
Phoenix World Champiionships: 32 M+ in attendance. Out of 316 teams.
Until every player is polled, anything we say here is only conjecture.
The numbers above dont show much of a turnout using hot equipment.
Sorry I didnt mean to ride the soapbox. Or jack the thread.

Dec. 28, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1006 posts
I didn't see anywhere where the discussion was centered around Major plus only. Maddog's question was about lowered combo or hotter combo. In the 50 major plus last year there were probably no more than 15 viable teams across the country in Phoenix 10 showed up not to bad. ASA cancelled their senior stuff on the west coast talk about numbers.
Dec. 28, 2009
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
E4/E6......I don't know about hot equipment, but I do know that most of those at Vegas and Phoenix were using the 1.20 bats.
Dec. 28, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Lecak,
you are right, I use the M+ example only because most of the posts seem to be from M+ players.

Salio2k,
that was my point, Even with the Senior equipment we didnt have that big of a turn out.

The old addage, "Build it and they will come" would hold true with any rule or equipment change that is made by organizations in Senior Softball. If there isnt another choice, what choice is there?
Of course we would grumble and talk it to death, but in the end our love of the game would win out. We will play with tree limbs and pine cones if it comes to that. imo
Dec. 28, 2009
Webbie25
Men's 60
1973 posts
Thanks Butch, I thought I was alone. I posted about putting the product out there and see who comes quite a while ago and it didn't fly very far. Problem we have is lack of teams in NM and we have to travel to play already. We cannot pick and choose like we might like to. Einstein, there would be plenty of hitting, even with a 'rollback' in liveliness. I still don't see people advocating a huge rollback to where there is one HR per tournament. However,I think a good number of people realize it has gone a bit far for senior reflexes. Einstein-I am as competitive as anyone and love to hit the 400 foot plus blast as much as anyone, but I have to go to work on Monday, as do a lot of players. I do not want to be the one to inadvertantly hit one up the middle and send someone to the hospital for an extended stay---or worse. Nobody has perfect bat control. It's not 'compassion' that tells me we need to slow the game a bit, it is being real about who we are. It's watching games at all levels and seeing balls go by guys before they can react to it on a regular basis at all levels. I know I am nowhere near what I used to be physically and it is not from being totally lax. I work out, work on quickness, but-- Age gets you. All of us. Even car racing had to put limits because they were going too fast. Some drivers were upset at the restrictions, and invariably they were the first ones to wreck going hell bent for leather. A 5-10% reduction is not big, but might save some child's grandfather.
By the way E4E6, we played a national tourney in 1987-third round winners bracket-into a strong wind in Dallas, and won 3-2, and then won the 4th round 6-5. Back in the 70's games were like that a lot, even at the higher levels. Defense was as important as offense. Our Diablos team from Albuquerque felt if we stayed in double figures every game, we would be in every game. We got ranked in the top 20 in the nation in the late 70's. If I remember correctly, it was the Blue Dot that really boosted the run outputs and was the first time we really paid much attention to hitting our own balls. But I still love playing defense in the outfield as much as I love hitting. It is still game I have loved playing for 41 years.
Dec. 28, 2009
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
My view is that it takes every bit as much athleticism to be a good hitter as it takes to be a good fielder. Those who choose to work on their hitting skills will become better hitters than those who choose not to. The same goes for fielding. And as far as an even game, my question would be what do you consider an even game? If you mean two evenly skilled teams such as two major plus teams playing against each other with the same rules and equipment, then I would say you already have that. But if you mean putting a Major plus team against a lesser skilled team such as a AA team, and making it a fair contest, then I would say it could never happen. If you find yourself in opposition to the senior bats, for whatever reason,you should choose not to play in leagues and tournaments that have them! But to ask those who do desire to use them in leagues and tournaments to change, is a very selfish wish on your part.
Dec. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Diehard, I love you.
Right freakin' on.
If these guys were conscientious and intent
upon "returning the game to it's former
integrity and glory" than they should be refusing
to play in tournaments with lively bats/balls
and when the do, not use senior bats.
But we know that's not gonna happen
revealing the lack of ooomph to their argument
and how non representative it is most of us
and what we truly need/want
to play our game.
Lively bats and balls are a necessity
to the fundamental enjoyment of our game.
Period.
Case closed.
Let's all take a deep breathe
let go and move on.
The next thing we have to deal with
to make pitchers as safe as can be reasonably
be expected using lively bats and balls
and maximizing our enjoyment is
to let HR's be walk/singles.
This will keep powerful thinking and hitting
guys off the middle and trying to jack one
out the park.
This is irrefutable and only the existence
of other interests or agendas on the part
of TD's and those who would architect
our game for us regardless of the reasons
would argue against it.
Charge us more money for the extra balls lost
or let us buy more balls at the tournaments
when we can hit them over the fence
and let us have our game back,
the way most of us want it played.
Dec. 28, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1006 posts
Bob (Maddog) would you agree that the players have already spoken with regards to tournament ball as to the bat/ball combo. Almost universally the hotter combo is being offered. Huntsman, LVSSA, SPA, SSUSA, ISSA and probably some I missed are they not listening to their paying customers. None of them can agree on anything except this item they are in lockstep.
Dec. 28, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
The truth can be twisted in many way to suit the need.
But to call my wishes selfish is just as selfish.

Joe, did you stop playing when you had to hit an "inferior" ball? No, you played through it didnt you? I'll even bet you had fun, like you do hitting a rock.
I would like to see defense become part of our game again, thats really all I am saying. Give us back some balance.

Dec. 28, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Lecak,
Hard to argue with that one.
Although I'm not sure its the players who made the decision as much as the Mfg's. Regardless, the decision has been made.
Time to play ball! Menifee in 2 weeks~

Dec. 28, 2009
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Defense is already there. Phoenix Worlds, 60 M+, score 8-6. The winner went on to win the Championship with a total of 8 homers. Some keep posting about the mighty U2. How come M+ players are not hitting homers each at bat. I'm talking about players that have been M+ their whole Senior career! Since anyone can hit one with a U2, should there not be those that hit 800 with 12-14 homers per tourney.
Dec. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Sal, right freakin' on.
I've pitched games and had game pitched
against me where no major plus home runs
were hit with the wind blowing out with lively balls and 300 foot fences.
Some people think it's that easy to hit a lively ball with a good bat over a 300 fence
with a good pitcher on the mound
and that's dead wrong
and often suggests other interests
and agendas when making that argument.
Defense is never less important
when playing our game.
When both teams are formidable offensively,
it's defense that will separate them
no matter what the sport or level.
Dec. 28, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Salio
Ask Einstein why homeruns arent hit every at bat.

Joe,
You of all people know perfectly well that at each division skills arent quite as good as the next level. However the speed of ball is about the same, thanks to the Senior bat. Balls get thru the infield or past outfielders
in lower divisions that may be fielded in the upper divisions.
And you are right, it should be defense that separates. Unfortunately thats not always the case.

Dec. 28, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
If our countries best players have home run limits, The USA team, 10 and then outs why should we be any different? What makes us think we are any better?
Dec. 28, 2009
spoonplugger
Men's 60
58 posts
People move into new communities all the time, because they like it. Then they get on zoning, planning, beautification committees, etc. and want to change things. We just tell them they should go back to where they came from. The balance is here in all divisions. I knew the rules when I joined SSUSA, SPA, etc. and that's why I play. AA, AAA, & MAJOR, that,s where I've been.
Dec. 28, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Butch thats a great point. Maybe they are on to something. =)
Dec. 28, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Spoon,
I agree 100%. Although I think you are talking about changes made after the Senior bats came to be. I would go back to a time before them.
There isnt anything wrong with old school as I remember it.
I'll continue to play with current equipment because thats what we have, I'll hit and field to the best of my limited ability.
Like Einstein wanting his lively ball, I advocate a step back with the Hot bats. jmho
Dec. 28, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
the senior bats(the originals,miken ultra's)were banned within the year they came out by all assoc.a lot of players(senior players also) whined and bitched b/c of the ban,only senior assoc caved in.now we have these senior composite bat hero's who could never hit a ball out of the park even if they were standing in the outfield,now mishitting balls out.balls are being hit with such velocity,that inf'ers have no chance to attempt a play on them,let alone one hit at a pitcher.
E4/E6 hold your ground,you are not being selfish no way.to me selfish is completely disregarding the life of a player,which is the case with this hot bat/ball combo.yes i do use the senior bat,like someone says,ya don't bring a knife to a war,but would gladly go to a lesser ball or lesser bat to use.
Dec. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
With all respect, truly, Robert
I couldn't disagree with you, more.
Hitting a good ball with a good bat
is not only fun, it's invigorating
and teaches us by the dramatic differences
in results when we're swinging better
and more correctly so we can build on what
we've done, learn and grow.
Anyone who tells you a hitter can't get better
and hit better as he gets older
is as blind as an earthworm.
DeMarini, Bogie, Waldyte,
all talk about learning the proper,
most effective dynamics of hitting a ball
far and well.
Robert, safety is important but not important
enough to take away the intrinsic beauty
and joy of hitting and learning to hit a ball
to the best of our ability.
Again, Bogie's video is superb and
should be in every hitters library
if you really want to see how and why
we can all become better hitters in softball.

Dec. 28, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
if you can hit,you can hit.you don't need a super bat to do it,i use ASA,usssa bats when i play with the kids and guess what,i still hit(and can hit them out occasionally),in fact for usssa i use a syn-2 that was an ASA bat,before it lost its grandfather statis.i own 1 usssa bat and that is a maniac 585 and all the rest are ASA,except for my 4 combat senior bats.you say well if your worried about safety use the dumbed down bat yourself,well like i have said before,why use a 22 cal rifle when everyone else are using 50 cal sniper rifles.using a super bat does not make you a better hitter,it makes you a very lazy one,there is no real work to do with the senior bat,just make a good contact and the ball will fly,mechanics not needed.
Dec. 29, 2009
Webbie25
Men's 60
1973 posts
Mad dog, good point-if I am playing against guys using the hot bats, I would be as stupid as the Colts (lol) if I did not compete with the best bat available. Again, it is not the point. Maybe we should just bring back the Worth T-4000 ball with these hot bats and just whale away. Toughen the bat shell a bit and we could have 500-600 foot shots and balls coming off the bat at 140 mph. The point is, where do you draw the line? We can talk all day here, but $$$$$$ is still the bottom line. All of these organizations put out their 'product' and we have a choice what rules we want to play. I know I will be out there playing every chance I get until the good Lord tells me it is time to stop.
Dec. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Completely wrong, again, Robert
with all due respect.
Mechanics, proper swing
is how you can hit the long ball
or any ball well.
1.2 bats are legal.
USSSA makes 1.2 bats that when broken
in are as good as any Ultra 2.
1.2 bats and good balls are the way
we want to and we're going to play,
Robert.
There's no value to fixing or wanting to fix a good bat and that all by itself
will deter to eliminating bat cheating
and the re-rise of bat doctoring.
What's your personal policy on fixed
altered bats, Robert.
You've never really commented
and I'd like to know.
I said I spoke for the majority
about bats and balls, Robert
and I was right.
The majority has spoken a la
SSUSA, SPA, Huntsman, NCSSA, LVSSA
and others and we want and will play with lively balls and good bats.
Time to give it a rest, Rob.
You're just diggin' a bigger hole
to eventually fall into.
Lively bats and balls make the game
more lively and fast keeping everyone's attention up and primed for the next
event whether on offense and defense.
Lively bats and balls tell hitters
when their executing their mechanics
correctly allowing them to learn
and become better with every swing.
It's a better game and more fun game
and a something we will continue
to invest in where ever it's played.

Dec. 29, 2009
stever
Men's 65
62 posts
Something I find interesting in this discussion is that out of the fourteen posters who have age identifiable, 3 of the 4 people who are age 60 or older like the game the way it is. Of the 10 identifiable posters 50 or 55, 6 of them want to "dumb down" the bats, balls or both. Of the three whose age is not identifiable, two want to "dumb down" the equipment and the other one doesn't seem to commit either way. It appears, out of this very limited sampling, that the older players are happy with the equipment the way it is but the younger ones think the bats and balls are too lively. I would have thought it would be the other way around because reflexes deteriorate with age. Admittedly, this is a very small, albiet very vocal, sampling. It might be very interesting to find out what level the advocates on each side are. I would guess, although it is only a guess, that most of the players happy with the equipment the way it is are Major/Major + and the ones who want to change the equipment are AA/AAA. I can tell you my 60 Major team doesn't want to roll back the bats or balls.
Dec. 29, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
you know what joe,i take it you don't/can't read,as i have posted my thoughts on altered bats,so i guess you'll need to go research some of my posts,for that answer.
also i have seen so many mishit balls go 300' with our super bats,tell me that was b/c of good mechanics,yeah right you can't,in fact i have done it many times,really not rewarding to see a ball go over a fence when you don't deserve for it to happen b/c of mishitting a ball.the other team looks at ya and all you can say is another miken hr.
by the way usssa's test for the 1.2 bpf is along the whole barrell,not just the COP.also i have yet to see an usssa bat equal a senior bat,you must be doing something to the ones you use.
also if u think the usssa bats are that good why buy a senior bat with no warrenty instead of a usssa bat,that has a warrenty.
stever your breaking the ages down is slightly askew as the age under some of the posters has not been updated,i will be playing 60+ myself next yr along with a couple of others who have posted.

ok joe now answer this question,who is gonna pay for the medical bills of the player who is gonna be seriously hurt or even killed by this hot combo,by the way i have asked this of you before.also you never want to answer anyone else's direct questions,its always,senior need ahot bat/ball combo to enjoy playing softball,regardless if you get hurt or not.
Dec. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
We have before and could always get hurt
playing softball Robert.
Who paid for it before?
Insurance companies and/or the government
if we couldn't pay.
And why would that be different now?
Have you heard about the health insurance bills that passed in both houses?
That's why there is insurance in the first place.
Insurance against guys getting hurt living, working and playing in the society.
When has insurance coverage
and getting hurt been more
or less significant or
important against any injury?
And lastly,
how or why does playing with a legal bat
and ball and one we overwhelmingly
want to play with, change any of that.

I've had 3 serious injuries in the last 3 years
involving being hit by batted balls?
Did I seek to sue anyone?
Hell no.
Threatening law suits will kill the experience
of wanting the enjoy anything because
we can always get hurt going for a walk
around the block and some lawyer
will try to find something wrong with the air
or the sidewalk or the pitch of the street.
C'mon man and give us all a break..
I think we're in danger of
being scared and herded
by "safety first" thinking
against our own best interests
by all these threats of law suits
and who's gonna pay for whatever,
blah, blah, blah.

Also, Robert,
one might think you don't like answering
questions about altered and fixed bats
if you continue to chose
not to answer or reprise your position.

Again, I don't understand why signing a waiver
would not satisfy Associations
about liability issues and I'll go out a huge limb
here and say the majority of senior players
would sign that waiver in a heart beat,
Robert. I would.

Our game must have lively bats/ball
to be enjoyed.;
It's that simple and anything else
is ignorance or self interest talking.


Dec. 29, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
like i said joe,you don't/won't read posts i have done against altered bats,but hey keep accusing,its what your good at.
Dec. 29, 2009
stick8
1282 posts
Mad Dog to answer your original question defense, base running and strategy is a big part of the game--even with the U2 and other bats of the like that ellicit many home runs. Teams should use those home runs wisely. The theory of "offense wins you games, defense wins you championships" rings true at any level. A poll I would vote yes in would be one that forbids adding gimmicky type things or rules--aka a pitching screen or the former ppr rule. Am I one of the few who feel the game was meant to be played a certain way?
Dec. 29, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
stick8,

I agree no screens no ppr no free subs unless its Subway.
Dec. 29, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Joe,
Our game does not HAVE to have a lively bat/ball to be enjoyed. Its being and has been enjoyed since day one.
The same could be said about your interests with the lively bat/ball issue. How is that different from wanting a cooler hot bat?
I respect your wishes do you respect mine?
Dec. 29, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Butch, make mine a foot long Meatball with cheese!
Dec. 29, 2009
outlaw
Men's 50
24 posts
Personally I prefer no PPR and I do like the present bat/ball combo.
I think the HR limit should be increased for all divisions. I like the safety base at first and can't make up my mind about the extra plate.
I do not like the use of the mat and plate as strikes as I feel its slow pitch, already a hitters game, you just take more away from the pitcher.
And, I can't stand the five run inning rule and the courtesy runner rule.
I played no SSUSA this year because of some of the rules and with this "sign a waiver" crap, probably won't in 2010.
Fortunately, I live where there is plenty of senior ball to be played, Florida, without playing SSUSA.
The fees are too high, one umpire for that money? And they don't seem to be going out of their way for their meal ticket....us...the players.
I'm sorry I went a little long....but, you asked.....
Dec. 29, 2009
stick8
1282 posts
LOL Butch, Subway is the best!!
Dec. 29, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
outlaw,i now wish i had retired in fl instead of texas,almost did.yes i do hit the senior bat and whatever ball is provided for the tourney,as i have said before the use of a lesser ball with senior bats would be ok for me,or keep the ball and back off on the bat.i played in only 1 ssusa tourney last yr(texas state championships)and that was it.
now for the hot stuff,we are getting older and our reflexes are getting slower,it only makes common sense that we throttle back on this hot equipment.why should we put ourselevses in very grave danger with this hot bat/ball combo.the waiver does nothing to protect a pitcher,and the safety equipment is only minimal at best.if your using only a mask use still can get hit in the side of your head(temple)or if you only happen to buy soccer shin guards you still can get a busted shin and get a blood infection.
so lets get back to a safer and saner game,and actually play some softball and not hr derby.
Dec. 30, 2009
Webbie25
Men's 60
1973 posts
Butch, I will take a $5 footlong beef with everything. Trying to keep the belly from being the first thing to the base!! Stever, I am 57 and play 50AAA in NM. We do not have a major team anywhere close. It is impossible to explain why I feel a small step back is a good idea without sounding like an egotistical you know what. On top of that, writing this makes me realize why major and major plus guys do like the combo. I realize that I would too at that level. You gave me a different perspective.
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