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Discussion: Playing to win or keep everyone happy?

Posted Discussion
Jan. 6, 2010
Rip
20 posts
Playing to win or keep everyone happy?
How does your team handle this? We are going to the TOC and some players want to hit everyone every game and some want to hit less once the actual tournament begins. As I'm sure is the case with most teams there is a serious drop off in hitting ability from our best hitters to our worst. So any suggestions short of a knife fight?
Jan. 6, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Might be tough because the best hitters may not be the best fielders and visa versa. Both are required to win.
If their is an injury I hope you have at least one available. All that usually falls on the mgr.
Jan. 6, 2010
hombre
Men's 60
220 posts
This is probably an issue that should have been dealt with during the season. With very few exceptions, the teams that play at a high enough level to qualify for the TOC, want to win. If there is a drop off in ability after you bat your starting ten, don't bat the rest if you want to win. If there is a hitter or hitters that hit with the starters, let them DH.
Hitting all players at the cost of losing a tournament is a rec ball mentality.
There is nothing wrong with batting everyone in bracket ball, but you go with your best players in elimination.
Of course this is just my opinion.
Jan. 6, 2010
starburst23
Men's 60
44 posts
Here is a general idea. Managed Major ball for years, If you are carrying about 14 players bat them all in pool play, when tourney starts bat your 10 fielders as usual then out of the remaining 4 I batted 1 Dh and used the remainder to relief anyone not hitting or exhaustion.
Jan. 6, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
i would play it like you did all season,if ya hit everyone than,do it for TOC.
we would bat everyone for seeding and take the best 11 hitters/fielders for DE round.
Jan. 7, 2010
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
Rip,what state is your team from ? We are going and being from KY will not be in Softball shape in Feb. We have 6 outfielders and all are very good hitters. I usually bat 12 and bat all 6 outfilders and rotating them on defense and hope that 4 will be healthy come Sunday. Bat everyone in pool play and usually a couple will be banged up after 3 games. Ego's come in to play some will be limping in outfield and get upset because he's not out there. Also a lot depends on how hot it is,if you play back to back games etc. Like hombre said play the way you did all season. I know batting everone in pool play could hurt you if say there is 5 teams so #1 seed gets a bye.
Good luck,our Jim & Joe's will be there playing 60 major
Jan. 7, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Jim (hombre).
Right freakin' on.
The faster the line up turns over
the more a lively, energizing and infectious tempo is created
getting the best batters up sooner,
keeping them from 'coming down'
and dispiriting the opposing team
by eliminating guys from the line up
they can get out.
As a pitcher I hate when a good team
only bats 10 because you don't get a chance to take a breath.

I agree with Robert that maybe
11 sometimes if the DH is very close
to the best hitter on the team
but keeping it at 10 is the most
competitive from an opposing pitcher's
perspective.
Jan. 7, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Couldn't resist an addendum.
Free defensive subbing keeps the line up
at 10 while still having the effortless
oppty to get everyone/anyone in any game.
It's a great idea if...
"We Play...to win...the Game."
Riffing off what Robert said
you let teams bat as many as they wanted
in seeding games but limit all line ups
to 10 or 11 when double elim starts
having the best of both worlds
so to speak.
Jan. 7, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
einstein,
Just keep to the squad size or your be wanting to increase numbers & jump from up from platooning to company> battalion> brigade> division> corps or a whole damn army of players.
We all want to play & win.
Jan. 7, 2010
Rip
20 posts
JohnBob we will be coming from upstate New York so we won't have been outside playing for sometime either. I agree with what everyone is saying if you want to win then hitting more than 11 players is not the way to go. We have hit 11 all year or 10 the last two games of the tournament that got us the spot in the TOC,but now we have some guys that want to hit everyone. We only have 12 guys going so I don't see a problem with hitting 10 or 11 and still keeping everybody happy. To me it comes down to are you playing to win or going the little league route keeping all the kids happy along with their parents! I also pitch and it is a lot harder when there is no bottom of the lineup.
Jan. 7, 2010
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
Our team is a local league and self-sponsored so everyone plays. May rotate a couple etc but in senior ball you need extra players and its hard to get someone to pay their own way and play only if there is a injury. Fully sponored,hand picked teams now that's a different story imo.
Jan. 7, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
rip thats the reason this tourney needs to be just after worlds in november than in january,lets the southern teams have a slight edge.
johnbob your right with that paying and not playing thing,i personally won't shell out the kind of money to go to a tourney and not play.
Jan. 8, 2010
ju25
Men's 55
139 posts
I play in tournaments to win, not to keep everyone happy. Having a strong bench is key as is having players who know what their role is. At our age we all should know what are role is. Keep em happy during pool play, but no more than 11 hitters in elimination games. We bat up to 15 hitters in league ball sometimes and I find it very difficult to get into a groove as a hitter.
Jan. 8, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
ju25,but when you have people spending money to travel(and team not sponsored),it is very hard to tell them they can't play,since they might be even or close to the ones playing in ability.yes we all want to win,but how do draw the line.
Jan. 8, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
I’m a mythical player—an outfielder on a Major team with 13 players. I must be good since I was chosen at the beginning of the season to play for this team. We’re self-sponsored so I kick in a lot of money to play the regular tournament season (shirts, fees, practice balls, etc.). I pay also to travel to overnight tournaments out of the area.

As to skills, I am an outfielder, not as good as the top four but good. As a batter, I have some power (a homer or two every tournament, but mostly gap shots). I consistently hit, always over .750. As a runner, I am equal to the other outfielders but one. In our tournaments, we bat everyone who can make it and rotate in the field.

Now we have qualified for a major tournament. A big expense since it is distant from our home and we all had to pay an extra night plus airfare. I am sitting on the bench. We are doing well and advancing, but I have not seen a minute of action as batter or fielder. I am insurance against injury or fatigue. On the bench with me is our backup pitcher (the best pitcher, actually, but a weaker batter) and our backup infielder, fastest guy on the team but a weaker arm.

The pitcher has not been in a game yet either. The infielder has courtesy run a few times to give a starter a breather. If we win the next two games, we’re the champs! And I have paid out $1500 to sit on the bench and cheer. Am I going to play with this team next year?
Jan. 8, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
OK, the Myth,
Has your Mythical Player one of the following?:
A) Won a very large lottery?
B) Indepentently wealthy?
C) Have a AFL/CiO or Middle to Upper Level Government Pension?

No? Then I would be looking for another team next year.
The team player will only go so far, there must be a point he says enough.
I think the scenario you Mythically painted would work well if the team were sponsored with expenses paid.
I dont know anyone who would fork out that kind of money to ride the pine. Regardless of the outcome.
jmo of course.
Jan. 8, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
i say no also,i do not spend all that kind of money just to sit around and watch.i usually in the top 10 of players,but have been in the situation that u have described omar,i did not go back.didn't say anything just never returned to that team.
Jan. 8, 2010
TGIII
Men's 60
92 posts
Great topic. Winning solves everything. You get no complaints in batting order, number of batters, defensive positions, etc. when your team is winning. Players don't complain about the money they spend as long as the team keeps winning. As soon as you lose a tournament or multiple tournaments than the second guessing and finger pointing starts. When you lose, all managers are now placed in the situation you just discribed. Best rule, communicate with your players and let them know what is expected.
Jan. 8, 2010
ju25
Men's 55
139 posts
mad dog,

I didn't mean that everyone shouldn't get a chance to play. Do you think every player should play every game? You don't invite players who are paying there own way(which we do) and expect them to be cheerleaders, but you can't expect to play every game either.

Omar,

That is not right at all, if you were good enough to be on this team you should be seeing some action. You must have one helluva team if a .750 hitter with power is riding the pine. I played for IBEW Local 58 back in '92 and we had 5or 6 guys who played every game while the rest of us took turns sitting. Did not return the next year and I ran into the coach on a job. When he asked me why I did not come out for the team I just laughed at him.
Jan. 8, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
tgill yes and no.if i spend x amount of money(non-sponsored team)and sit,don't care if they are winning,i also won't start anything but won't go back for any more tourney's.i don't drive hrs and spend all kinds of money just to be a cheerleader,sorry just my thoughts.

ju25,i understand,but we that pay our own way vs the sponsored teams,we want to play,i have been on both sides tho.i went to a tourney(worlds in seattle,didn't get reimbursed like i was supposed to)and sat even in seeding round(pinched hit for the whole tourney except 1 game i did get to play,6 games, and was 7-8 with 2 hr's)and was not a happy camper,but kept my mouth shut and never went back to that team.i was also one the better defensive players,but was not a hr hitter.
Jan. 9, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
mad dog, appreciate your attitude. I'm the same. Whatever the manager decides, I do—sit out, pinch run, play an unfamiliar position. I may have a different idea, but he is the manager and takes all the grief. Nothing gained by bitching on the bench or arguing with a harassed manager. I'm not volunteering to manage, so I go along with the man in charge.

Thirty-five years ago, I'm on a team with a lot of young guys. This is the days before reentry and EH, or full lineup batting—once you're subbed for, you're out for the game. The young 20s are complaining and second guessing. The manager is pulling his hair out.

I make a suggestion: manager of the game (we weren't going to win that first half league anyway). We do it. Every game, a different manager, always one of those who were moaning and groaning. It was quite a cure!

Showing up early, worrying about late arrivals, ump on your back about the lineup, figuring out when to substitute, and most delicious of all, having others second guess and complain about you! Solved the problem for the second half of the league and for years to come with those guys.
Jan. 9, 2010
southpaw
Men's 60
733 posts
I offered a survey some days ago and was so disappointed when there were no responses. Reference: "For Pete's Sake, Not Another Survey." I asked everyone's attitude about winning.
Is it: A) Winning is everything
B) Winning is the only thing
C) Other, please elaborate

I am pleased to see the elaboration for other in this post.
For me, winning is way down the list. Especially at our age, it just seems that because of the commitment called for--travel time, travel expenses, full team support if not sponsored, there should be a measure of compromise.

I have always asked one thing of my teams. That is, if we were in contention, especially for a championship, if someone was struggleing, they would understand and seat themselve. That is only, however, if they had a fair share of playing time up to that point.
Jan. 9, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
southpaw, that i can agree with,but you'll have guys say oh no i'll come out of it and they are 1-15 (:0) LOL.i have benched myself for not being a contributor.

omar yeah that's not a bad idea there,i might have to suggest that to our coach,LOL.
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