http://www.seniorsoftballstore.com

 
SIGN IN:   Password     »Sign up

Message board   »Message Board home    »Sign-in or register to get started

Online now: 0 members ; 30 anonymous
Change topic:

Discussion: Masks or Helmets

Posted Discussion
Jan. 18, 2010
LP
266 posts
Masks or Helmets
with the new pitching rule are helmets required or are just masks okay.also is shin guards required.

anyone know for sure.
Jan. 18, 2010
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Nothing is "required" if you sign the waiver... otherwise, headgear and shinguards are required... Not sure what "headgear" means.
Jan. 18, 2010
Omar Khayyam
958 posts
Scenario:
Joe Pitcher shows up at Reno with shin guards and GameFace pitching mask.
SSUSA says that a pitching mask alone does not fit its definition of "headgear".
Joe Pitcher has no other option with him, nor does the other team pitcher. The game has started when SSUSA noticed the deficiency. Joe Pitcher reluctantly signs the waiver.
Batted ball hits Joe Pitcher on temple and gives him a concussion.
How much good do you think the waiver will be when Joe Pitcher's lawyer approaches SSUSA about paying Joe's medical bills?
Jan. 18, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
Head and shin gear... this war of words will be endless if one thinks about it as a pitcher or assn\TD.
The 'what if' & how much is enough, will then become another thing.
It's all getting ridicules.
Joe P. hit on temple... will be lucky to just get a concussion, I'd think to even survive.
Jan. 18, 2010
LP
266 posts
SSUSA staff could you state the correct pitcher protection gear, helmet with a mask or just a mask.
i know about the wavier the other is unclear.
Jan. 19, 2010
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
Omar,
I have been playing this game we all love so much ever since I was a kid.I have never seen any player sued.(not saying it doesn't happen)We take the field,we know there is a possibility that we could get hurt,but once the umpire says "play ball",that's what we should do.If you want protection,wear it,if not don't.Next we will want to sue the makers of the helmets and shin guards.
I don't know how the hell our game has got to this.
Just like a bar down the street from me,A customer went in there,got drunk,chose to drive and had an accident.(luckily no one was hurt)now they are suing the bar for serving this guy,they did not make he drink,he choose too !We chose to play ball.LET'S LEAVE SSUSA AND SPA out of the equation, go play ball and keep the rest to the man upstairs.
That's what has happen to USA,everybody wants to sue,look at all the attorney adds on TV.
ENOUGH SAID,PITCH THE BALL AND LET'S GET ON WITH IT !
JMO !
Jan. 19, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
6, you are soooooooo correct on this.
Jan. 19, 2010
SSUSA Staff
1008 posts
LP: The language of the new rule ß6.17 includes the phrase "...suitable head gear..." This means protective safety equipment that may be reasonably relied upon to reduce the risk of serious injury to any part of the Pitcher's body above the neck.

Omar: The GameFace pitching mask does not meet the minimum criteria of suitable head gear as defined above. The Pitcher would not be allowed to pitch, absent his completely voluntary execution of the waiver and the game will not start with a 'deficiency' as you describe it. As for the ultimate validity of the waiver, that is out of our hands. Anyone may file a lawsuit if they can perform one simple task: Payment of the court filing fees. A meritorious basis for the lawsuit is not an initial requirement. If you would like to discuss this, please call the SSUSA office at (916) 326.5303 and ask for Dave. SSUSA does not have caller ID on its phones.
Jan. 19, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
6, brilliant, manly and true.
Haven't we gotten into enough trouble
being led around by politicians?
Apparently not.
Now we got to worry about
lawyers taking over and
at who's expense?
Ours, because we end up paying for everything, right Mark?
Giving in to lawyers and law suits
is just another way of letting ourselves
be diminished
by a largely predatory society
set upon eating each other.
Whatever happened to "man to man"
and "a man's word is his bond?"
Isn't that largely why we love
our game so much, i.e.
it's honest competition marked by
the true code of men -
self respect and fairness?
Somebody wins and somebody loses
and no one need feel guilty or sue anyone for the experience of it all.
C'mon men!
Get a grip.
Let's stand up for ALL of us
before it's too late
to even remember what we gave away
and lost.
6. Way to go, Bro.
Thanks for reminding us
of who we are and still need to be.
Jan. 19, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Joe, Some of us have never forgotten who we are.
When you find a viable way to fight the man let me know, I'll stand with anyone who does. =)
Jan. 19, 2010
Omar Khayyam
958 posts
SSUSA, thanks for the clarification of the rule. As a pitcher, I have been very observant the last two years as more and more pitchers are wearing face masks. The three dominant brands are GameFace, Rip-It, and Worth. Pitchers are wearing these lightweight, airy brands so they don't overheat, to allow good visibility for fielding, and they are easily removed between innings. Their purpose is to protect against the head-on line drive in case the pitcher can't field it quick enough to avoid being hit. You clarify that ALL of these masks do not meet the protection criteria! Meaning that ALL pitchers depending upon them must also sign a waiver.

Of course pitchers will sign the waiver and still wear the mask for the above reasons. At this point, the full head protection does not yet exist that is not heavy, cumbersome, difficult with glasses, hot, or some other impediment.

On this point, I think SSUSA's waiver will lose its power. A pitcher is "forced" to sign it to play without maximum protection (which few pitchers own or like), so it will be open to challenge in court if it was a freely chosen option.

I am certainly an anti-sue guy. I have never even thought of suing, despite the many injuries I've had in almost 60 years of playing, some caused by negligent field conditions. I think most senior players have the same mentality.

But when a player faces reconstructive surgery or brain damage or other serious injury costing tens of thousands of dollars, and it is not covered by his insurance, then I think we will begin to see some lawsuits. And when a widow, without our "manly" perspective on not suing, is counselled by a hungry attorney to seek redress, again we will see lawsuits.

I also predict that it is only a matter of time, as long as we have the composite bats and lively ball, that it will be mandated that infielders wear "suitable head gear" or sign a waiver. What a situation just because of some players' desire to swing a hot bat.
Jan. 19, 2010
SSUSA Staff
1008 posts
Omar - The decision as to what type of head gear a pitcher may select is a personal one. There are several available choices based on a quick search of the marketplace. It is not our intent to debate your personal opinions, but it is our obligation to accurately and clearly define Rule ß6.17. Suitable head gear is as previously defined: "Protective safety equipment that may be reasonably relied upon to reduce the risk of serious injury to any part of the Pitcher's body above the neck."

As a pitcher, you are certainly entitled to make a fully informed and voluntary waiver decision to not wear the equipment for any of the reasons you stated. You may also execute the waiver and then subsequently wear just the GameFace protector and/or the shin guards as partial protection. That choice is solely yours. However, the content of your posts indicates that should you do so, it is with a full understanding and complete assumption of the specific risks to yourself the rule is designed to reduce. And that's the point of the waiver option: Freedom of personal choice on a fully informed and voluntary basis.

Our office is available at any time during normal business hours on the West Coast to discuss the other hypothetical objections you have presented.
Jan. 19, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
OK.
You're blowing a lot of smoke
for a guy who isn't comfortable
standing in/up for himself
and maybe that character trait is what
makes you not want to pitch, Rich.
If it's time for you to step aside
that's cool but don't try to change
the game for the rest of us.
As Gary has often said
if you can't take the heat
get out of the kitchen
or go try co-ed or lawn bowling.
Why will almost all of us continue
to take the mound regardless of all the running, smoke blowing and hiding
that is going on around us.
Because it doesn't feel any different
on the mound or playing 3rd now
than it ever has.
There was always guys capable of hitting bullets at us, so what.
Now a few more can.
So what.

You're in danger of becoming
a stick in the mud, son
and look like me talking about platooning the first year
I brought it up.
OK.
We'll in all likelihood
confirm who you are
shortly, (think Farm)
and then your little jig will be up.
Jan. 19, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
Not the Farm Joe.
Jan. 19, 2010
Rod Sweet
Men's 70
53 posts
Omar, your points are well taken.
I am sorry for all those that have purchased a mask before SSUSA decided to clarify the wording of "SUITABLE Head Gear" I for one bought the Game Face. This should be a lesson learned and I would expect any changes to SSUSA rules be provided well in advance before they are etched in stone, the players need to understand them and make comments if needed.
Jan. 19, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Since when is a name necessary to have an opinion?
There are those who are more comfortable being anonymous. That doesnt make their ideas or opinions any less valid or important.
Jan. 19, 2010
OTE24
Men's 65
122 posts
I wear both the helmet and shinguards.It's an option. If the ump says your gear doesn't measure up then sign the waiver. What does SSUSA owe any of you? They provide a service. Their tourneys,their rules. I have not
noticed any difference in my play with
or without equipment. I prefer to protect myself. I have never seen any pitcher complain on this board about
who hits the middle,only hitters complain about not being able to hit the middle. Give it a rest,if you're not comfortable on the mound don't pitch. If you don't like the SSUSA rules,don't play in their tourneys. It takes balls to stand out there,doesn't matter what bat/ball combo.
Jan. 19, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
John, right again. Only now your balls are much larger then back in the day. =)
Jan. 19, 2010
OTE24
Men's 65
122 posts
Can't wait to play you guys again! Good win in Menifee.
Jan. 19, 2010
Omar Khayyam
958 posts
einstein, I guess youíre talking to me, but I donít know where you got the idea that I donít want to pitch. Iím the guy that was pitching fast pitch from 37 feet away when you were still in diapers. Donít think I ever implied that I am not competitive or donít want to pitch. Never complained about guys hitting up the middle. Am opposed to home runs being outs on principle, not because I think guys might hit up the middle.

Itís true that we disagree about the importance of offense versus the other skills required in winning (and fun) softballódefense, base running, strategy. I believe the balance is distorted and would like to return to the conditions of the early 90s (and 80s and 70s and 60s and 50s etc.) and you are stuck on hitting with a hot bat and donít want anything to lower your power. I stand with those who have enjoyed the game for 40 or 50 years, but less so in the last ten with the overemphasis on offensive power.

The fact is that the faster speed of batted balls with composite bats has made the game more dangerous (not to mention the declining reflexes and skills as we age), so much so that composites are banned for younger guys, and as many have pointed out, there is a long history of forbidding hot bats and balls that lessened the balance of the game and that were too dangerous for humans who have NOT similarly evolved.

Maybe lawsuits will hasten the demise of unbalanced softball, or maybe the threat of lawsuits will cause associations to address the imbalance, but I think the end of the lively bat/ball combo is coming, and coming soon (I would guess before 2015). Iím not the one threatening a suit. Iím not the one leaving the pitching mound. Iím not the one throwing away my Miken as long as others are using it in tournaments. Iím just making an observation.

As to who I am, I am still baffled by your frustration in having to know. As I pointed out, more than half of all posters on this site (58%) have not identified themselves. You are in the minority in demanding that it be done for one to be a ďmanĒ, and your constant aggressive threats to unmask someone ďthen your little jig will be upĒ sound more like warnings than an honest desire to get to know someone.

Iím talking ideas here, not trash, so I guess I donít know why my identity is that important to you (and only youóno one else has reacted the same way).

Thanks, E4/E6 for making my point.

OTE24 I agree mostly with you, but I have noticed a difference playing with a mask because there is an inevitable blind spot and I have missed a few grounders when trying a mask. And you make a good point that it was the hitters, back in the PPR days, who complained about shots up the middle, not the pitchers on this board.
Jan. 19, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
678 posts
Omar,

You are right, there is a blind spot in all of the masks. I will use shin guards against some teams and none against others. I am not using a mask and will just sign the waiver. No big deal.

Andy Smith,
Double Edge
Jan. 19, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
Rod S.
Had I not seen the video trumpball provided a link to, my bet would have been on the Game Face, for about 45. Now the cost doubles for the other (Face off) in the video I perceive as somewhat better. NONE are risk free.
Jan. 19, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You got nothing to say.
You want to talk personally, mention people by name and don't give yours.
There's no real communication going on because we can't ground you,
what you're saying or ascertain
the meaning of your comments.
We call that masturbation
instead of communication and not to be taken seriously.
But I don't think you mind.
This is all play for you, isn't it.
None of it matters, really.
You'll play no matter what equipment
we use because you don't really care,
one way or the other
as it only needs to be something
to get you off.


Jan. 19, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Joe,
Get a grip man.
Omar or anyone of the other 50 some odd percent who dont id themselves has as much right to NOT ID himself as we do showing who we are.
You may not want to go there with the getting off part.
We all get off on some part of our game. Including me & you.
Jan. 19, 2010
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
E4/E6.

Now maybe we can understand what he means by hot bats and balls.

Now thats funny I don't care who you are.
Jan. 19, 2010
Stretch14
Men's 50
180 posts
Here we go again!
Jan. 19, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Butch you're killing me here! =)
Jan. 19, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
80 per cent of the guys who post here
are known guys whether they post their
info in the profile or not.

There they go again.
And I stand up and in for all my comments and actions, E and your cheap shots define you, not me.
Credibility guys.
You either have it or you don't.
And no one who uses a mask
has it.

Jan. 19, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
i love all this crap,people are more worried about whether or not a name is posted in a profile than if anyone would be killed by this hot bat/ball combo.and if that's not bad enough they have to go tell them to masturbate,just love how no one is right unless they give a complete personal bio.
stupid is as stupid does.
Jan. 19, 2010
Omar Khayyam
958 posts
taits, trumpball's video was pretty remarkable wasn't it? I lost a lot of confidence in the Game Face effectiveness after seeing it on the video. Maybe I'm just as well off continuing to pitch without a mask. The new product from New Zealand seems to have a lot of advantages and looks like it might pass SSUSA's standards for head protection. But it's not here yet.
Jan. 20, 2010
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Omar... that's what he does best!... feeble attempts at being a bully.
Jan. 20, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
Omar,
Yes it was. I would have liked ALL masks used, used for\in each of the videos available, they were not. However, that which were presented showed enough to make reasonable assumptions.
19,
He is a salesman and very good at it. But I do not believe he was really selling here, but is informing us with video footage rather than words. Seeing is believing, hearing is another story. Give him a break on this one.
Jan. 20, 2010
OTE24
Men's 65
122 posts
Once an organization picks a piece of equipment as the standard, they now open themselves for legal problems. No
organization would do this unless they
forced into it. The equipment is optional.I've played two tourneys since
both the old rule and the new rule have been implemented. I think the new rule solves the problem. Pitchers can pitch,hitters can hit. What's wrong with that?
Joe,what does credibility have to do with wearing a helmet?
Andy,No mask is necessary,your face scares hitters. It would mess up your
hair!
John Sadler
Double Edge
Jan. 20, 2010
stick8
1238 posts
#6, very good post!! That's one of the main reasons why our health insurance rates have risen thru the years. Unnecessary frivilous lawsuits.
Jan. 20, 2010
4Four4
Men's 60
79 posts
Nobody wants a pitcher to get hurt and it's not "unmanly" to choose to use personal protection devices - just a preference. I would like to see our pitchers use something - our team would buy it for them - but ultimately, it's their choice.
Without turning this excellent thread into an advertisement - can someone give us an example of what would be considered "acceptable headgear" under this rule?
I'd really like our pitchers to consider it.
Thanks.
DH - #4(3B)
The Tub
Jan. 20, 2010
tattooball
602 posts
I will give you a little info that was shared with me from the best NOCSAE lab in the country.

A nocsae approved footbal helmet is probably the only thing that will hold up to a 90-100 mph direct impact.
Second best would be a NOCSAE approved batting helmet with NOCSAE approved facemask. Again both of these helmets will only protect you to the fullest if you are wearing a chin strap.

You can buy these at any sporting goods store and I will run a special on these and a few others. I will warn you that some of the masks mentioned I will not offer in a special deal. We may sell some of them for now but that will soon change.
Jan. 20, 2010
SSUSA Staff
1008 posts
FOR INFORMATION ONLY - NOT AN ENDORSEMENT

Worth Sports has one on their website that meets the guidelines we envision for "...suitable head gear..." This particular product is the Worth SBPH Slowpitch Softball Adult Pitcher's Helmet with Face Guard and is illustrative of several similar items available in the marketplace ...

Worth Sports website link: Worth SBPH Product Description

Jan. 20, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
678 posts
Thanks Mr. Sadler! LOL!
Jan. 20, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Einstein you are a piece of work.
The only cheap shots I see on this entire board are those written by you.
As for credibility, yours is slipping everytime you verbally assault another player.

I would like to appologize to anyone I offend with this response. That isnt my intent.

John
Jan. 20, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
The only way you know the truth
or real value of someone's words
is when those words get grounded
and reveal their meaning.
The same word can mean a ton of things
when written but when you hear, see and can feel the depth, breadth, the color,
the tone, the humanity
and conviction involved
then and only then
do you have a chance to ascertain
it's meaning.
That's why real men and women
(Hi Nancy) often say,
"Talk is cheap."
Well, I'm not cheap.
Easy maybe but not cheap.
None of my friends are cheap.
Playing senior softball sure as hell
isn't cheap.
SSUSA, Fran, Dave and Terry
aren't cheap.
So, anyone who wants to be taken
seriously by any group of real
or serious men/women
needs to identify him or herself.
Simple respect and courtesy
for all involved.
And that would be another of my "whacky and wild" majority opinions.
Jan. 20, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Actually the truest way to know truth is face to face.
Ever read a book by an author using a ghost name? We all have, it doesnt make the book any less real or interesting. fact or Fiction.
Joe, you are right on with the written word, it is usually taken out of context. Our voice tones can generally dictate meaning.
And respect is never given, it must be earned.
Jan. 20, 2010
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
flowery BS is still BS
Jan. 20, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
well i think your cheap,with the way you feel you can verbally assault people on this board,that prefer to remain bio free.who has made you the message board police,mmmm wait no one.why don't you just get over the fact that some people don't want their personal info/name out there for anyone to see.it has nothing to do with their creditability,this is a message board and i know of none that require you to have your personal info for everyone to see.i regret having mine out there now,as i have had emails and such sent to me from people that i really don't want to have contact with.
Jan. 20, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
sad pup, what are you hiding? Witness protection?
Jan. 20, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
dipty huh,make some sense please,oh crap i forgot who i'm talking to.



for the rest,the emails i get are for some sort of scam and avg 5 or so a day.
Jan. 20, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Were you born this sour or is it an acquired trait?
Jan. 20, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
as usual no sense made
Jan. 21, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Great comeback, oh not-too-bright one.
Jan. 21, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1934 posts
Now children, all of you go to your timeout corner until you can be civil to each other!
Jan. 21, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Hey, I just asked him a couple of innocent questions. :)
Jan. 21, 2010
southpaw
Men's 60
715 posts
I'm going to move a few of you up higher on my prayer list!
Sign-in to reply or add to a discussion or post your own message and start a new discussion. If you don't have a message board account, please register for a free nickname. It will only take a moment.
Senior Softball-USA
Phone: (916) 326-5303
Fax: (916) 326-5304
2701 K Street, Suite 101A
Sacramento, CA 95816
Send us e-mail
Senior Softball-USA is dedicated to informing and uniting the Senior Softball Players of America and the World. Senior Softball-USA sanctions tournaments and championships, registers players, writes the rulebook, publishes Senior Softball-USA News, hosts International Softball Tours and promotes Senior Softball throughout the world. More than 1.5 million men and women over 40 play Senior Softball in the United States today. »SSUSA History  »Privacy policy

Follow us on Facebook

Partners