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Discussion: Want to play! # 2

Posted Discussion
Jan. 27, 2010
the wood
1076 posts
Want to play! # 2
Apparently, the other thread was closed... at least, to me it was.
I have read with some interest the many responses to the proverbial questions... should we bat 10 if we want to win?... is defense more important than hitting?
Whatever insight I can muster is really just personal experience...
Batting 10 - this became popular in 2005 when Turn Two did it this way and they did win more than their share of events, big events. The flip side of this was the run (55 & 60 M+) that the Old A's have had and they batted 12. If everyone is 3 for 4 in a 12 man line up the last 2 guys (2 outs between them) could keep your best hitters from batting in the last inning. Recognize that it isn't likely that all 12 guys are each 3-4, think of it as the team average. But to say that the last two hitters have the worst ob% is a gross generalization and likely wrong.
Mad Dog's point about having some gloves out there is equally valid, in my opinion. This is less important when there is a max run/inning rule in effect... in theory.
The correct answer has more to do with the tenet of your team than a pat answer. We've done both, won and lost with either.
Harkening back to the 2 outs made by the 11th and 12th hitters... what if they also made big defensive plays, which coujld have saved several runs?
We're a 60 M+ team and many of us have played in national events for close to 40 years. While we still play to win every game, we mix our line ups around during the early/middle paret of the season. When we get to the end, we play the guys that are playing their best at that moment... seeding games are our chance to get at bats for everyone and to rest some of the main guys... we don't bat more than 12 in any of our games. DE is when 'the rubber meets the road' and that is our focus.
We have a large roster and its our goal to have fun. Without this, what's the point? No one is getting paid. But we have confidence in all of our players because, if not, we wouldn't have recruited them.
This approach wouldn't have worked 30 years ago (and didn't). But most of us (our team) have matured and many of us have endurance/health issues... quite simply, we're not the athletes that we once were. Everyone on our team sits at some point... everyone. If they prefer the big fish routine, there are plenty of other teams out there.
This works for us but might not work for your team.
Anonymity? At times this bothers me, too. Not because I need to retaliate as much as I'd like more insight into the other person's position. When someone 'speaks from experience', I'd like to be able to know if this is so or not. But, all in all, this isn't a big deal with me.
BW
Jan. 27, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
BW,
It was closed to all for some unknown reason.. go figure.
I've played where the last batters were better than the 1st 3,,, go figure on that one. Rare, but it happens.
Which do you choose if one is not a hitter but solid, and Visa Versa. tough decisions usually made upon situational needs I'd think.

Canljack,
There are good mgrs, as well as the not so, who manage very well, even while playing ball. But I see your point. Really depends on the person I'd think.
Jan. 27, 2010
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
the wood,
The other thread is still here,down a couple of messages.
Jan. 27, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
message stated closed
Jan. 27, 2010
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
my bad,
Why in the hell would they close this?
Jan. 27, 2010
Omar Khayyam
989 posts
#6 I thought maybe the originator of a thread had the privilege to close it...and YOU did it! LOL

What do you think of this argument (I don't think it applies as much to M+ teams): are hitters as consistent as fielders? In other words, will an .800 hitter consistently hit for high average as much as a .900 fielder will consistently perform?

In AAA ball (most of my experience although I've played major), I see a lot more inconsistency where a normally good hitter (either for average or power or both) can be thrown off his game, but it is rare to see the same happen to a good fielder.

Good hitters can be thrown off by a pitcher whose style or quality they don't like, pressure situations, a breeze, frustration that a couple of his well-stuck balls that game were excellently fielded, an inconsistent ump, a replacement bat, etc. I've seen it all.

But a good infielder or outfielder is seldom thrown off by such factors (maybe pressure situations). Of course weather, sun in eyes, wet conditions, bad hop infield, can lower performance, but I don't count those as inconsistency anymore than when a batter has to hit into a setting sun.

My point is that making up a winning team should go beyond just the batters' prowess. You might be better off with a light-hitting shortstop who can consistently make the double plays than yet another big bat who hits a home run now and then.
Jan. 27, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
The 'power'.. of censorship\ownership and\or one delete button or a few key strokes.
Seems to be getting used more as well.
Jan. 27, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
who knows #6.here is a question for ya's,ya have 8 guys who are solid hitters and defenders,and ya have 4 (2 solid hitters .650 and above,so-so defenders tho;and 2 solid defenders but just .500 hitters)do ya put all 4 in the lineup or just go with the 2 hitters,or 2 defenders.
Jan. 27, 2010
Lecak
Men's 55
1006 posts
Just an observation but I think Batting avg in senior ball is inflated due to the 5 run limit. I've seen scorebooks where only a handful of outs are made by a team and most of those in the open frame. If all 21 outs had to be recorded BA's would tumble. A 500 or below in senior ball might even be lower if all outs had to occur. Pitcher,SS and the two interior OF positions I would defer to the better defense.
Jan. 27, 2010
Mr. Manassas
226 posts
I think that the thinking on batting extra poeple in the lineup is a matter of a opinion on where you put your priorities. But if you are strictly thinking that you want to win no matter what ...the more batters in the lineup the less that your "hot" batters get up..and that is fact. It does not matter where in the lineup that the "hot" batters are for "that" game, they will get up less.
Jan. 28, 2010
the wood
1076 posts
Mr. M:
Your point is well taken. But does hitting 10 necessarily translate to winning? What if you compromise your defense/pitching in order to put only the 'top 10' in the line up?
It isn't just about how many runs your team scores.

Omar:
In my opinion, the answer to your question of the .800 hitter v. .900 defender favors the defender as it relates to consistency (poor playing conditions aside).... i.e if the field is bad, an infielder will be more challenged than a hitter... if the wind is an issue, an .800 hitter should be able to make adjustments.

Mad Dog:
Your hypothetical question happens more often than most folks would believe but, unless you're a mgr, you might not be aware of it.

Joe:
You're right about the inflated ob% with 5 run innings. Yet GSF only hit .625 in Phoenix last October and went undefeated... that was/is more the exception than the rule. The heat held everyone back somewhat, even the .800 hitters. Defense was king.
BW
Jan. 28, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
If the bottom two guys in the order consistently have higher OB% than the other guys something is wrong with the order. Why would you not want to maximize the number of plate appearances for these guys?

Not to say this is the only way to do it, but I remember in probably the 80s when Dave Neale batted Greg Fuhrmann leadoff. Certainly not your "lead off looking" type of hiter, but Dave wanted to maximize his plate appearances and it is mathematical fact the lead off hitter will get to the plate more in the long run than any other spot in the order. Just as the number two guy will get there more than the guys below him, and so on.

As far as who should play, defensive should defintely be part of the equation. But once you establish who is going to bat, and it becomes just a matter of in what order, you need with rare exceptions to get your best hitters up to the plate as many times as you can. Just common sense.
Jan. 28, 2010
the wood
1076 posts
Dirty, you'd have to be there to understand it perhaps. Who said that the bottom two guys 'consistently have higher ob% than the other guys'? To hit last in the order takes a person with a strong mental approach. That guy (or guys) is usually a more reliable hitter than guys that hit 2-3 spots ahead of him.
Aside from this, you seem to have a keen eye for the obvious.
Greg Fuhrmann played for York Barbells and Campbell's Carpets (79-80)in the late 70s and early 80s. Russell Bradley led off for Campbell's... probably one of the best ever at that. I saw Steele's play in '88 and Greg wasn't with them. So your recollection must have been between 81-87. When I saw Steele's, Ron Parnell hit last for them and he had the right mental aptitude/attitude for that role... or any other role in the order.
The last couple of guys are given the job of 'turning it over'... do not ever underestimate the importance of this. Kenny Dain hit next to last... they were the SS and 3B of that team, important positions... more so than 1B & 2B (back tehn). They turned the order over a lot and made damn near all of the plays... and Steele's hit more than 10 guys when I saw them.
When it's all said and done, it's still a team game. Steele's are best known for the pile of Ws that they collected.
BW
Jan. 28, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
wood,been done that when i have run a team.i chose the defensive player and save runs being score on us and won that way.i would also let the other 2 hit tho if their bats were good.so for me batting 12 was/is no problem.
i used to classify my hitters this way.
hi avg = .750 above
good .600-.700
med avg = .500-.600

1 = basehitter hi avg
2= basehitter good avg and some power
3 = good to hi avg and good power
4 = mid avg,hi power

this is how i would try and bat them
1,3,2,3,3,4,2,4,2,1 for 10 and for the last 2 if batting 12 they had better be a 2 or 3 type hitter.
Jan. 28, 2010
the wood
1076 posts
MD:
I'm sure that you would also consider any/all psycho elements that different hitters have. Not that it would necessarily impact your decision but you would consider it. As an example, the numbers show that a guy ought to hit 3rd but he doesn't have the right mind set.
BW
Jan. 28, 2010
canIjack
Men's 60
321 posts
In every sport that I've played except bowling you got to have DEFENSE. But now I fine that in Senior Softball, We have to out hit your ERRORs. The 5 run inning is our Defense. Now you got to HIT to win the game. But I'll still take a Good SS and 2b with a 400 avg. any day. And Bat them 8th and 9th.
Jan. 28, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
wood, you said this above:

"But to say that the last two hitters have the worst ob% is a gross generalization and likely wrong."

That is why I added the conditon of "consistently" just in case that is not exactly what you meant.

Like I said, as I recall it it was sometime in the 80s. Your memory of exactly when might be more precise about this than mine. The point was this is not baseball where you are doing much more situational hitting. In slow-pitch you want your best hitters getting the most ABs, it just makes sense.

Again, I definitely believe in factoring defense into who is going to play, but once that is determined you need to get your best hitters the most at bats.
Jan. 28, 2010
DD
Men's 60
74 posts
Something to ponder in the area of OBP vs. the traditional batting average. The last two teams I've played for kept offensive stats based solely on OBP (On Base Percentage.) This meant plenty toward elevating one of the most important stats we keep...raising levels to almost Ruthian proportions.

Example: Player A singles his first time up; he walks his second time up; he hits a routine doubleplay grounder in the 5th inning but the ball is booted by the shortstop and all hands are safe; and his last time up he hits a crisp 2-hopper that clanks off the thirdbaseman's glove for an error.

This hitter is credited with a perfect day...4-for-4...and is batting 1.000 when only OBP is considered. Yet, he was actually 1-for-3 and is really hitting .333, pretty unacceptable for slowpitch softball.

By what standard do you measure this hitter? As a manager, this effort would not warrant a high spot in the order, but his stats are perfect.

What say you?
Jan. 28, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
DD
Pretty well put.
Gary,
If this is not BB why do you keep bringing it up all over here? And is all this based on your 10 scholarly years and 1k Batting Average of what?
Jan. 28, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Scott, based on just six scholarly years, less than a 1.000 average, and common sense. :)
Jan. 28, 2010
Mr. Manassas
226 posts
I think that OBP is very important...there are aberations that occur such as is mentioned above but generally the better hitters have the highest OBP. Walks are every bit as important as hits for example and guys that consistantly hit the ball hard tend to get on base by error more than others.
Jan. 28, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
Gary,
Ok, I thought I read 10 years someplace back when.
Middle one, All I remember is you didn't answer that how to bat that question from WOW back then either...
Not sure about the last issue I'll just let it go.
Wondering about when you started playing senior ball.
A little chilly back there no doubt. Been pretty mild here thank goodness.
Jan. 28, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
wood yeah your right,i would consider the players mentality also.myself i don't like batting in the 4-5 spots,even tho i have the power to do it on some teams that i play on.the old stone age i used to play for i batted 6th and felt at ease there(oh and that was one of those teams where we could bat 12 with no problem).i have always liked having a big hitter behind me also,makes me a lead off type hitter,just get on any way i can,let him bring me around.
Jan. 28, 2010
JamesLG
299 posts

In all the years I have played the guys with the best batting average and most home runs were not the guys I want to see up with the game on the line. A lot of guys fatten the average and add to the HR totals when there at bats don't mean much. This is why I don't think a manager should go with stats alone when they figure the guys who play and the guys who sit in the key games. I also believe starter should sit at least one of the pool games and let guys play who won't be on the field on Sunday.

Thank You:

James

Jan. 29, 2010
JohnBob
Men's 60
246 posts
canljack,in thread # 1 you said that a Manager should not play. I would guess that about half of the teams we play are managed by a player . I will agree that its not for everyone but I have been doing it for years with very few problems. I play 3rd base so its easy to make a change it would be very difficult for a outfielder. Also we are a local league team which helps,may be harder if its a hand picked team. The hardest things are kepting up with runners and ego's.
We have 6 good outfielders that also are good hitters and if all are healthy I bat 12 and rotate the 6 on defense and hope to have 4 in good shape for Sunday.Of course if all 6 are healthy then they all want to be out there but we get through it,are have so far lol
Mr M I agree on the OBP being important and that is what I kept. The one thing that will get a team beat is routine fly balls and usually the ones that hit the ball down will have the highest OBP. We also have 3 or 4 slow guys that hit a lot of ground balls and are DP threats so I try to bat a fast guy that gets a lot of doubles in front of them.
Jan. 29, 2010
TGIII
Men's 60
90 posts
Great comments by everyone. Two areas that I feel are important is how a player plays on Championship Sunday. Many players play well leading up to the final day and collapse on Sunday for whatever reason. The other item that I keep track of is the batting average for a player in a two-out situation. Teams that score a lot of runs after two outs are usually the successful ones. Confidence under pressure is a key to winning. As for me, I manage the team and play outfield.
Jan. 29, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
I suppose there could be different ways to do this, but safe by error should never be a part of OBP. At least it is not in baseball. Safe by error is typically not earned, but given by the defense and the batter most likely deserves little if any credit for it.

At least with walks you need some plate discipline. Errors are someone else's mistake.
Jan. 29, 2010
JohnBob
Men's 60
246 posts
DD in your thread above the batter did not make any outs so yes he was 4 for 4 imo. I belive the old saying that a walk is as good as a hit and have guys on our team that after getting a strike will swing at anything close like they are afraid to get 2 strikes.It's unbelieveable how many rally's start with a walk. Who says the crisp 2 hopper of 3rd baseman's glove is a error? That is the very reason I use OBP,I've seem players get mad and argue with scorekeeper or other players whether it's a hit or error. Sure he was lucky when SS booted the DP ball but at least he didn't pop up. We have seen guys drop their shoulder in DP situation to make sure they do not hit a ground ball and in most cases its a fly out. My 2 cents
Jan. 29, 2010
canIjack
Men's 60
321 posts
Yea JohnBob, You seem to be right about the Managers in SS, they are also players. So I have CHANGED MY MIND. If there are 12 men on the Team and the Manager is a better player than 3 or more of the players on that team, then I agree, play the MANAGER. But WILL you so call managers/players learn how to do a line up. NEVER PUT A 400 HITTER IN FRONT OF A 700(Yea I know You like to have men on when he comes up but the 500 hitter hits into a double play half the time with men on base). Unless you bat him 9th. I like to have a good hitter with speed in front of my lead off person.
Jan. 29, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Most errors in Senior ball come from 3 places. Lively balls, Hot Bats, and age.
Of course they are still errors and shouldnt be considered OBP.
While I'm not our team Mgr, I agree with how we set our lineup, its very traditional and similar to BB only with 12 hitting. Speed and hi ave. at the top, power in the 4,5 holes, more average to the 8 spot, with power thrown in because we have it, and lower ave. at the bottom.
However since we are Seniors the output changes, but seems to balance out over a complete tournament.
Jan. 29, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
A forgot to mention, our managers jobs just arent that F%$^&%* easy. To quote mine!
In the end it really is a decision made by the players ability on the team and the make of those players. Good managers know their guys and place them in the lineup accordingly.
Jan. 29, 2010
EG Fred
Men's 60
16 posts
DD

OBP definition:

On Base Percentage is calculated by adding hits, walks, and hit by pitches and dividing by the sum of at bats, walks, hit by pitches, and sacrifice flies:

OBP = (H+BB+HBP)/(AB+BB+HBP+SF)

An error is not a hit therefore 0/1.
A botched double play/fielders choice is not a hit therefore 0/1.

I see so many managers make the same mistake you are making. This guys OBP was 2/4 = .500.
Jan. 29, 2010
Omar Khayyam
989 posts
E4/E6 you are exactly right about most infield errors in senior ball. I play in a league about 130-140 games a year, and I have a good idea who is a good, reliable infielder, or even a great one.

But in league play, because of the wide differences in age, most of the players are restricted to single wall bats, some older players are allowed double wall, and the oldest can swing composites (mostly Mikens). The ball is lively, but not hot.

Then I go to a tournament and see these same excellent dependable infielders get eaten up by the lively bat/ball combo allowed in most tournaments. Can't get to the ball, hits off their glove hand, line drive that almost takes their head off, ball that strikes them other than in the glove, and so on. Except for the first category, these are all "errors".

And age takes its toll as well. For example, an infielder I admired just a couple of years ago can no longer get down on a ball, or lunges at it and it goes off his glove. This is inevitable and part of senior ball.

Most of my managers have rewarded the batter with the hard hit ball off an infielder's glove with a "hit". With the hot bats, velocity of the hit has not declined as much as fielding skill. Just another reason I prefer a return to the balanced game we loved for decades until the arrival of the ego-boosting hot bats.
Jan. 29, 2010
turn2
484 posts
If you have a 400 hitter in your lineup that will be a BIG problem if you are trying to win games. Then if you do have a player with a really low average he NEEDS to be batting at the very end of your lineup.
It is hard to keep everyone happy by batting a certain number but in double elimination I am there to win ball games.
Donnie
Jan. 29, 2010
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
I've played where the sac fly counts against you, but the ss booting your hot grounder counts for your OBA.
Jan. 29, 2010
the wood
1076 posts
Isn't it a bit presumpuous to state which method for OB% calculation is right or wrong? Doesn't it come down to which works best for each team? There are strengths and weaknesses for each method and it isn't like all teams need to use the same system.
There have been a lot of good points made in this thread and, as was pointed out among the last few posts, a manager has a lot more to do than merely list the hitters in descending order.
In my view, the most germaine point was made by James LG when he stated that it matters most WHEN a guy gets his hits or RBIs. This addresses the question of 'who is/are a team's best hitters' and, therefore, when they ought to bat.
I'd also add a 4th reason that infielders make errors... some of them were NEVER that good at fielding. Let's be honest.
BW
Jan. 29, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Wood,

Since we are being honest, "Krispy Kreme" comes to mind. You know who I mean. O^O =)
Jan. 29, 2010
Lecak
Men's 55
1006 posts
Bob you can't score if your not on base, that one is 100% fullproof. We have a number of fast runners on our team from the left side they cause an abnormal number of errors from the right side of infields that's their game. And there are times when the SAC fly is a thing of beauty especially in senior ball where an out isn't such a bad thing. 4 runs in, one out, bases loaded hit the ball in the air somewhere and with HR's at a premium not over the fence.
Jan. 29, 2010
Omar Khayyam
989 posts
Wood, you're right about some infielders that were never that good. I was being kind. Maybe to myself, because I was one that was never that good (that's why I dedicated myself to pitching and outfield). Yes, I know a pitcher is also an "infielder", so maybe I compensate by being really good at popups and line drives.:=)
Jan. 29, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Not "presumptuous" at all. Believe it or not, some things only one one right way to do them. Does your team choose its own way to calculate batting average? Fielding average? Did your family have its own way to calculate grade point average that worked best for them? How silly.
Jan. 30, 2010
the wood
1076 posts
E4/E6:
I know exactly who you mean and he is now in the 'Fitness Protection Program'. I know that he enjoys taking the heat and is usually the first to criticize himself. But I truly believe that he's a pretty good infielder. He'd argue the point though... as you know.
Mango:
I know that I violated copyright laws in using your FPP line, I owe you one... at least it wasn't about the person/persons that you targeted.
:-)
Dirty:
It really isn't all that complicated, you ought to be able to understand it. I could give a rat's ass how your local teams does its intra team stats. I don't care how any other teams do theirs either. Why do you care how we do it when you don't even play?
But if this is just one more effort on your part to be noticed, you must really be a lonely little man. You didn't play 30 years ago yet you can name a lot of the players who did... you even wanted to email me several years ago to talk about them. We called people like you 'spectators' on good days and 'green flies' on others. If I'd known that you paid to watch us play back then, I'd have comped you... too bad you didn't look me up.
Not a lot has changed with you in that time frame. You're still on the outside looking in. But you have an answer to everything... so you seem to feel.
If you do ever come to watch us play, the offer for a free ticket still stands. There is a caveat though... you have to bring me a copy of your report cards. I'm always interested in higher learning.
BW
Jan. 30, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Wood, you are right as rain about our friend, he is a humble funny man.
At the moment he and I are having a fitness contest. We are two parts of the Jumbo infield.
My guess is he is in the lead, so to speak.
I know when I look to my right when playing and see him there I always feel like we are winners.
One great friend!










Jan. 30, 2010
the wood
1076 posts
Friends? They don't come any better than him... and he IS one of the funniest people that I've ever known... years ago (mid 90s) he used to start yelling at me as soon as left the parking lot... I asked him 'why' and he said that 'the best defense was a good offense'... he still treates me like that.
Come to think of it, he isn't that good a friend... :-)
He had to work today and wasn't in Long Beach... he was definitely missed.
He's one of best unsung players around... but he could name a 100 guys more deserving.
BW
Jan. 31, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
wood, you are correct about one thing. I don't really care how your team does it, or anything else. But just understand there is only one proper way. But, again, do OBP however you like.

Who said I wasn't playing 30 years ago? Curious where you got that from. Could you enlighten us?

Thamks in advance.

Feb. 1, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Wood,
Our friend and another team mate keep our dugout rolling with their banter. As you know, everyone is fair game.
Remind me to send you a very recent photo of our friend eating a donut.
I'm sure he will say it was one of the High protein versions. =)
Feb. 1, 2010
Joncon
289 posts
DD.

IMHO, OBP is and the only one that really matters.

First, it's simple. The only questionable call I can imagine is if a runner ahead of the batter lolly gagged and resulted in a fielders choice.

Second, it rewards those who are patient enough to wait for good pitches and , gasp, take a walk.

A player may have a lucky game and end up on base via 4 errors but, in the long run, things even out and he will hit four line drives that the opponents catch purely by accident.

Also, one playes luck is not going to be any different than anothers in the long run.
Feb. 1, 2010
Mr. Manassas
226 posts
Dirtster,

On our team we decided to count errors in OBA to take away the arguement about wether a batted ball was an error or a hit. Works great for us...........
Feb. 1, 2010
the wood
1076 posts
Dirty, I'm glad that you finally gave us your blessings on how we apply ob% to our respective teams. We will all do so with the full knowledge that we might be outside the boundaries of what you consider proper but some of us are just going to take that chance. Hopefully, any future sanctions that we receive won't be that severe.
You asked me where I got the idea of about your playing status 30 years ago. Since you seem to be the only person on here that knows you, I'm extremely limited as to where I can find useful data on the Life and Times of Gary Sommers. I checked the Who's Who in Higher Education and could find nothing about you... perhaps this was my failing as a researcher.
You'll be pleased to know that you disclosed to me in an email 4-5 years ago that you really didn't play with or against any of the guys you asked me about (Cellura, Parnell, Wheller, et al).
Now, as much as I'd like this thread to be all about you, can we just move on? At times dialogues with you seem like a Ray Charles v. Stevie Wonder tennis match... not much action but at least they last a long time.

Mr. M:
You bring up an excellent point and one that does save a lot of grief for the team scorekeeper. He/she isn't getting paid either.

E4/E6:
You wouldn't happen to have a copy of the WTF family picture, would you? I'd forfeit a week's pay for one...
:-)
BW
Feb. 1, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
wood,M and the rest;we figure ours basically the same way,if you hit ball that does not cause an out to be made,than your good,if an out is made(aka fielder's choice and such)than it counts against ya.sure saves on the hit or not hit arguments.
Feb. 2, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
You guys really have to bastardize the proper way to calculate OBP just to placate teammates who argue hit or error? And here I thought winning is why the games are played. Does anyone remind these guys why they compete?
Feb. 2, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Gary, its not win at all cost like we were kids. Of course we want to win, but its not the end if we dont. At our ages we know what is real and what is not.
Why do, you, think the OBP is done the way most of us do it?

Wood, email me with your cell # and I'll send you the photo I have of KK.
He gave me your email but I dont have a USB cord for my phone.
boonierat1@aol.com
Feb. 2, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
hey dipty,why don't you come to our tourney's and be our official score keeper.hell MLB can barely make its mind up on hits and errors,why do we.looks just like another thing for you to complain about from outside the game,that your not allowed to play.come play and then you'll have something to complain about.
Feb. 2, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Obviously people can do what they want, I have just been citing the standard way it is done in baseball which preceded however it is being done in softball.

Win at all cost? I think it is, or why else are scores kept and championships given? But regardless of how you approach it, if I have a guy who values his batting average that much I just have to question what kind of teammate he is and why he is really there. Getting on base helps the team, regardless of how it is scored. So why should anyone make the scoring decision that important?

ONCE AGAIN sad pup, stay tuned. And MLB does a fine job of deciding hits and errors. Why do you feel the need to grossly exaggerate?

Please remember that wood was the one who called this "presumptuous". No one presumes the right way, there is only one. Sure people can do what they want, but just like with BA, FA, or GPA for that matter there is only one accepted way.
Feb. 2, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Gary, Its sometime hard to explain why winning isnt everything. In this case at least for me, it is easy.
I do play to win, make no mistake, however it is more about playing itself and making new friends. Getting reaquainted with guys I dont see but once or twice a year.
Its about having fun, about stepping out of a 61 year old body and into a 12 year olds memory. Smelling the grass, kicking the dirt, wiping the off the sweat.
OBP? Who gives a shit? =)
I just Want to Play!
Feb. 2, 2010
the wood
1076 posts
Gary, once again, you've exceeded your previous level of intellectual impotence... impressive GPA notwithstanding.
Yes, I did use the term 'presumptuous' and the context was 'that it's presumptuous for anyone to state what is right as to how a team selects/uses its ob%'. Period. It isn't about being proper... it isn't about building egos... the players don't make the decision as much as the team does. This is why I used the phrase 'dim bulb' about 10 days ago... you continuously give 4 watt responses to 60 watt discussions... highly educated or not.
Now, can we just give ob% a rest so you can get back to getting ready for the Annual Ohio Soapbox Derby?
BW
Feb. 2, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
"the players don't make the decision as much as the team does."

HUH??? Isn't the team nothing more than a collection of the players, or on yours is it somehow a seperate entity?

Funny how you always want to end the discussion after your last statement.

E4, I couldn't agree with your comment on OBP more. I believe the only stat that matters is the final score. :)

Oh, if you don't mind me asking again, did your family have its own way to calculate GPA that suited you best?
Feb. 2, 2010
the wood
1076 posts
Gary, the players play for the team that is run by its management, not a novel concept. You live near Cleveland. Who runs the Indians, the players or its management?
Who ran the Steele's team, Dave Neal or the players?
In our case, the players just want to play and enjoy themselves and they offer little input on how we calculate ob%... they don't care which method we use as it is applied equally to all.
As it relates to my family and our method of calculating GPA... you're getting to a slippery slope there, little man. But my brother, Aubrey, is a PhD (UCLA) and an MBA (Pepperdine). His son received his PhD from Oklahoma State... his wife received her MD from OU... my daughter is at Azusa Pacific Univ... all of us met to dicuss how we would calc the GPA and decided to let management do it... not a whole lot different than our team. I help this somewhat sates your obsession with stupid questions... the operative word being 'somewhat'.
Aside from being unable to follow or comprehend points being made (or preferring to ignore them), you're one of best contributors on this message board. You're surely a credit to any institution of higher yearning.
BW
Feb. 2, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Bob, in some cases I completely agree with you. And sure Dave was an example of that. But my hunch is those types of teams are 1 in a 100, if that. Most typical teams are solely run by a manager who often can be very influenced by the players.

What slippery slope, and clearly you did not comprehend that point. There is usually (often? only?) one right way to calculate most anything, GPA being one of those things, as are BA, FA, AND OBP. Can you do it some funky way of your own? Sure, free country. Just understand any other way is NOT the defined way.

You follow? Oh, and unless modesty prohibited you, it was a bit noticeable that in your litany of family academic achievement one person was conspicuously missing.
Feb. 2, 2010
the wood
1076 posts
Once again, you have that keen eye for the obvious. It is not my goal to begin sentences with the letter "I" on here, which includes my personal matters. It is none of your business, Gary, as you're not my friend... not even close... I have less respect for you than I did last week. Your star is dropping faster than a hooker on the Titanic.
Were it my goal to talk about 'me', I'd start with being in the financial services business for 30 years as a small business owner. Some of my clients are readers and posters on this board. What you fail to grasp is that none of us need your approval. I clearly don't.
Now, just let it go, if you will. but make sure that you get that last word in...
BW
Feb. 2, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Bob, so you are not my business (fair enough) but your brother, nephew, nephew's wife, and daughter are (sort of strange)?

You do realize you are trying to get the last word in as well, don't you (pot calling kettle black)?
Feb. 2, 2010
Joncon
289 posts
20th tiebreaker.....


Charles vs Wonder.....


Still deuce.
Feb. 2, 2010
WOW
197 posts
OK. We've heard from Larry and Moe. Where's Curley!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Feb. 2, 2010
Mr. Manassas
226 posts
Mudman,

In MLB they have professional scorekeepers keeping hits and other statistics. We do not, so keeping OBA our way takes some of the stress off of our people in helping in picking all tourney players. And as you know in the bigs the home scorer tends to lean for the home team as far as those stats are concerned.
Feb. 2, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
well Mr M why do you feel the need to bring common sense to this,LOL.
i can't tell you how many times i've watched a game on tv and seen some real homer calls on base hits and such,and oh don't let the home team pitcher be going for a no hitter,or the opposite for the away team.
Feb. 3, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Mr.M., good points and I understand that. But the only "stress" associated with a tournament should be about winning and losing. Batting averages and all-tourney teams are just gravy.

I still question what kind of a teammate a guy is if he makes those so important to him.
Feb. 3, 2010
Paco13
364 posts
Dirty, it is not added stress, but it is good to be recognized for your good effort. I might be going on a limb here, but it is no different that getting a nice pad in the back for a job well done. Actually research says that a “job well done recognition” is more of a motivator than a pay increase. We all like to feel good about what we do and be recognized for it, it is human. I personally do not care for the little medal, but I do like when I make a nice play of get a crucial hit to get a little love, motivates me to try even harder and also motivates the team. I am also willing to take the criticism when I do make a error or do not come thru…No stress here, I do not get paid, I just play hard a enjoy the game and by doing that I believe that the team is better off and most of the time we come on top. If I make the all T team, big deal…it is up the team or the coach to decide…I just do my job and put all my heart into it. Done.
Feb. 3, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Paco, I agree with a lot of that. That is what I was referring to as the gravy. I like gravy, not as much as I like the meat, but it is also good. :)
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