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Discussion: How to expand TOC participation

Posted Discussion
Feb. 17, 2010
Bob50
Men's 60
239 posts
How to expand TOC participation
While this may be a radical departure to the format for the TOC I would suggest that the number of teams to be invited include the National Champions from other Associations. If the goal is to gain more competition the answer would be to qualify more teams. Right now teams qualify for winning regional SSUSA tournaments. If SSUSA would like to expand the TOC participation why not consider this change?
Feb. 17, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4358 posts
I'd bet most that win there win here as well, but may be sone new ones... a good thought.
Some (most) assns DO NOT SHARE info.
That would be too easy.
Feb. 17, 2010
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Playing the same year that you quailify might help. Teams change after the nationals. If you make any additions, they cannot go with you to the TOC.
Feb. 17, 2010
DoubleL10
Men's 65
815 posts
Sure affected our team; we qualified early and broke up after the WinterNationals in Vegas. Had the TOC been in the October/November, we most likely would have attended. Larry Lopez, Oklahoma Turf Pro 60 Major
Feb. 17, 2010
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2647 posts
I agree with all the above. Move it to November and continue to play a tournament in Feb, call it the Early Bird.
Feb. 17, 2010
JohnBob
Men's 60
247 posts
How about flipping the Winter Nationals and TOC. The way it is now if a team won Winter Nationals in November 2009 they qualified for 2011 TOC so that's 16 months team has to stay together.
Feb. 17, 2010
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2647 posts
"If a team happens to win multiple events in more than one ratings level, they are invited to the TOC at the higher rating."
Please explain why Kayson's Grill played in the TOC as a 50 AAA team when the also qualified as a 50 Major team.
Am I missing something?
Feb. 17, 2010
grumpy55
Men's 60
102 posts
Maybe we are missing something. If they supposedly have a highly restrictive policy towards rosters for the TOC, then why are teams allowed to add players from a different division. They should play with what got them to the dance. Teams that get rerated up before June get to play down for this one is not right either. Not fair to the other teams. They play all year at the new rating and then play down and beat teams at their correct rating. None of this makes sense. Oh well I guess.
Feb. 17, 2010
LP
282 posts
changing the TOC to the same year would seem to make alot of sense. the team that i played on that won in vegas had 14 players next year whaen thay will play only 10 of the original players will be there so will thay be allowed to play with maybe a stronger team ,or at least differant players, doesnt seem fair to a team that shows up with what they won with?
Feb. 17, 2010
vinniec
Men's 50
18 posts
BruceinGa,Salio2k,
You both are reading my mind....

Play it in the same year that your team qualified..That would provide the biggest attendance/competition boost the TOC could dream of having..End the year with the biggest and best tournament of the year.
Flip flop Winter Nationals and TOC,this will not only produce a larger field in quantity but a much higher quality field.The correlation between a higher number of tournament winners that accept their invitations to the TOC and quality of the tournament in each division is in my opinion statistically significant.

Vinnie
WindyCity/Dlb

Feb. 17, 2010
Jawood
Men's 50
794 posts
Play the TOC in December with the current years roster. Don't start the 2010 season in 2009 and play the winter nationals the next year in the WINTER time not the FALL.
Feb. 18, 2010
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
We have all talked about this subject for some time. And SSUSA, because of, in their words "contractual obligations" is unwilling to bend on this one. The current time in which the TOC is held now causes more problems for SSUSA, and the teams and players, than the contractual obligations do. I have been told by SSUSA, that the players must be willing to accept the TOC in it's current time slot, because it is not going to change! If rosters cannot remain intact because of injuries or players decide to move on, that causes problems. Weather causes problems, as was expierienced by several teams who worked hard so that they could attend this years event, only to be snowed in. If you ( SSUSA) truly want to crown a champion of all champions, then I say move the TOC to a time when the rosters are still intact. Then after the TOC, players and teams can eliminate any of these concerns and move on!
Feb. 18, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4358 posts
I agree w\SSUSA about not allowing other assn winners in, ONLY because of the roster differences. But that said doesn't mean they have no issues.
My problem is any additional add on what was not originally on winning team.
I understand why they might be needed and there were many team this year in the mad dash to find a replacement player for it.
The idea to flip flop the TOC & the Winter Worlds makes sense, IMO, because its usually after the Worlds when teams change. Contracts shouldn't be an out for this because the fields are still used in both states, unless they used the "names" as part of the contractual deal.
Fields are locked up it is said, they would still be used in both states. The flip flop change of venue is worth a try.


Feb. 18, 2010
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
Guys,
I completely agree the TOC date should be changed.......BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN !I also know from talking to the SSUSA in charge,that if you qualify for the TOC,lets say in 2009 and will play in it in 2011, if your roster has changed because players quit , are cut,die or move away, YOU CAN PICK UP AND ADD PLAYERS,IS THIS RIGHT SSUSA ?
Feb. 18, 2010
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
SSUSA Staff, If reliance on rosters at the time of qualifying is so critical, why are there so many exceptions? Also, how and why did Ridge Hooks (SPA) get a copy of our roster from Lansing (SSUSA) even though it was the same in Dalton? How about consistency? Mel Job Central/Indy 60's
Feb. 18, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4358 posts
To get them in.
For the AR side of the books. The City & all businesses AR goes up, it is always about the bottom line which is the numbers.
XXX number if teams & what ever other perks are needed for the break even AP side of books, vs the AR side take in to balance and hopefully enter the black penned in gravy side of the books.
Some likely are justified, but it should be limited to what one could otherwise add as pickups at any other event if qualified.
Feb. 18, 2010
Paco13
364 posts
#6 that is exactly what is wrong with holding the TOC a year later, teams membership can change very drastically so in reality is not the same team that qualify competing at the TOC. A AA team with the new additions could be very easily classified as AAA but playing AA against true AA, that will be the case for any classification or vice-versa a AAA losing few players and picking up few lesser players so they can play as team. The TOC is broken and needs to be fixed before we play in it next year.
Feb. 18, 2010
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
Maybe one thing that could be done is that after the teams win the TOC qualifier, if they get bumped up and changed their roster because of the bump up, then they should be allowed to bring their current roster and play at the level they were bumped up to. That way there is no scrambling to get back the players that have since moved on.
Feb. 18, 2010
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
Sorry Bob50 for getting a little off track of your origional post. With all of the different rules in the other organizations, bats, height of pitch, whatever, I believe it may cause some problems
Feb. 18, 2010
WOW
197 posts
HIGHLEY RESTRICTED
Feb. 18, 2010
WOW
197 posts
The teams should have to play with their QUALIFYING ROSTER ONLY! PERIOD. The roster restrictions allow too much room for monkey business. Name me any other major event where teams can add players. I'd be curious to see how many teams showed up with their "qualifying" roster.
Their will NEVER be a true TOC until teams are forced to "ride the horse that brung'um"
Feb. 18, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
150 teams at the Winter Worlds. 113 teams at The TOC. There it is.

With the clout SSUSA has $$$ wise, there arent many municipalities that wouldnt work with them when it comes to contracts. This includes Winter Haven.
I think we as the paying customer should be able to get a definitive answer, about why a flip flop cant be done. Whatever happened to customer service?
Feb. 18, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4358 posts
But bring the saddle with the burr under it, to make it go.
Feb. 18, 2010
turn2
484 posts
If you do not have to have your qualifying roster it is only fair if one team is allowed to add players all teams should be able to add.
Also the reason we (Turn Two) did not go is the 4 month layoff between Vegas and TOC. It needs to be a closer date. Also why would I take my 2009 team when I have picked up players for the 2010 season? I would have to leave my new players behind and if i cut any players I would be short handed.
Donnie
Turn Two
Feb. 18, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4358 posts
Would have to be one of the few around with the number fields needed & available that being Reno, Vegas, PHX, or Mesquite or St George.
Vegas has another assn concern they control some parks.
Some possible change(s) would no doubt interfere with another somewhere. But no matter what you are not going to please everyone.
My bet would be Nov. or no latter than 1st week of Dec., Best fields other than hybreds are in St G. But the weather starts getting cold in mid\late Oct.
But get it done before the teams start changing, and 3 months later your wondering where everyone is.

Feb. 18, 2010
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
With well over 200 teams eligible to play in the TOC, it would not be a reach to believe that you could have 150 teams at the TOC and another 150 teams at the Winter Worlds. If the TOC were held in NOV., barring injuries, the rosters should remain intact. Teams playing in the Winter Worlds already can use the next years roster. It just makes sense to me to switch.
Feb. 20, 2010
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
Many of you have some great thoughts on this subject. It makes all the common sense in the world to move the TOC to November. This would take care of all the problems and questions including rosters and weather. Go ahead and hold an Early Bird tournament in February. There are many reasons to move the TOC.

1) Players are still in shape. Especially the ones who don't get to play all year round. I for one coming from the north, find it hard to justify spending that kind of my own money as well as my sponsors when we haven't played for 3-4 months.
2) Rosters are already set from the current year.
3) Teams may lose their sponsor going into the next year.
4) Teams who may be breaking up will still be together during the current year.
5) Team budgets are already set for the current year.
6) Teams should still have their qualifying rosters.
7) Teams could play at the level they qualified for.

It also really makes no sense to qualify in November to play in the TOC 15 months later. I'll never fiure that one out.
I'm sure there're are a lot more reasons to move the TOC to November.
I guess the only thingaout common sense is that it's not so common. JMO's
Feb. 20, 2010
Jawood
Men's 50
794 posts
Point 1 from Al33 is #1 with us. We would probably go if the TOC was the last event of the season in November or December (if we qualified). The way it is set up now, we would NEVER even consider going.
Feb. 20, 2010
cyclops
6 posts
Qualifying, getting bumped up, and then coming back and playing at the level you qualified as is not the automatic ring many people think it is. There was at least one team in TOC at a lower level than their current rating that did not win it.
Feb. 20, 2010
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
How many were the only ones in their age and rating, winning by default?
Feb. 21, 2010
DaveDowell
Men's 60
1048 posts
salio2k - There were three teams that played under that scenario:

MEN'S 65-MAJOR+ - Florida Legends/Human Kinetics
MEN'S 70-MAJOR+ - Suncoast Orthopedic Surgery (FL)
WOMEN'S 65+ DIVISION - Cebert Wealth Vixens (FL)

All three of these teams played "Exhibition", but could not advance in the bracket and were declared TOC Champions in their respective age/ratings division after their 5th game.

MEN'S 50-MAJOR+ - The East Bay Oldies (CA) played competitively with the Men's 55-Major+, giving an equalizer in all games, rather than play Exhibition. They were victorious, also allowing runner up Southern Slam to receive a complete Champions award package as the 55-Major+ TOC Champions.
Feb. 21, 2010
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Thanks, Dave. Too bad we could not have had more teams participating. Besides roster changes from playing the following year, I am sure that the economy had some bearing on decisions not to partake.
Feb. 22, 2010
jolly52
Men's 55
49 posts
BruceinGA... The team I was playing for played at the AAA level most of the year and we came in 2nd in one tournament and were then moved to Major and given berth at the major level and reclassifed as a Major team and told we had to play as a "Major Team" and could not play as a AAA at the TOC??? I agree please explain how They were allowed to play "DOWN"??? as the rule clearly states you play at the higher level??
Feb. 22, 2010
birdie
Men's 60
680 posts
Jolly52, As I understand the rules, you have to win a TOC qualifier in order to play in the TOC. I do not think second place gets you anything. The only team that I know of this year that qualified AAA and played Major was Timberworks out of Col. I am not sure why they where moved up but they needed some players so they might have added somebody that required them to move up. What is the name of your team? Knowing that may help. Thanks Harry
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