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Discussion: Way to go, Guys

Posted Discussion
March 19, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Way to go, Guys
Greg, Diehard,
thanks for sharing your experience
pitching and getting hurt back in the day, before composites and double walls,
as hard as that might be for some
to accept given their prejudices and
interests.

Way to go, Gary for keeping your argument civil and non judgmental.
We know how you feel that the game
should never have been touched at all
and a lot of us agree with you
but like Kenny Rogers said,
"You gotta know when to hold 'em and
when to fold 'em."


March 20, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Thanks Joe. You know that personally I have nothing against the bats, AS LONG as no one wants to changes any fundamental rules just to accommodate them.

But when we have screens, PPRs, pitcher's boxes, people want baserunners to be able to stand in foul territory to avoid hard balls down the line, etc. all because of how lively the bats are, that is just waaaay too much like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I just need to hear a good reason why the special bats are worth all of these screwy new rules. And while we are on it I need a good reason why we can slide safely into second and third, often coming in from the side or even behind the fielder making the play, but sliding into home often directly in front of the catcher is "dangerous". Dangerous to who?
March 20, 2010
JBTexas
Men's 60
260 posts
I can see the rule at home because only about 10% of the seniors slide at any base, either don't want to or can't. fielders can get out of the way most of the time if no slide catchers are a sitting duck.
March 20, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
JB, to me the 2B standing at second base waiting for a throw to come in from left field with the runner coming in completely from behind him is much more of a sitting duck than the catcher waiting for a throw from in front of him with the runner coming in from in front of him. The entire play is in front of the catcher, the guys at the other bases cannot say that.

Yet it is legal at second and third, and not at home. Just very contradictory to me.
March 20, 2010
softballerK1
Men's 65
29 posts
In my opinion, this rule isn't about the sliding, but about collisions. Normally, you don't try to run over a 2nd or 3rd baseman, you slide to avoid the tag. Going home, you could always run over the catcher. Remember Pete Rose/Ray Fosse? I think this rule is more about avoiding those types of plays. I'm not saying the 2nd baseman is at less an advantage with his back turned, but they will get hurt on the slide, not someone just running them over. I don't know about you, but when I was growing up, you were taught to "run through" the catcher if you had to.
March 20, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
k1,the reason i was given mad dog(back in the early 70's) as a nickname.run thru the cather,it was simple for me being a running back in football,just lower the shoulder.
to me the danger doesn't present itself at 2nd or 3rd as it can at the plate.usually you can get to the bag where as at the plate there is way more chance of a collision(bad throws,poor catcher positioning,etc).
March 20, 2010
Eddie12
14 posts
Check the rule book crashing the plate or any base is illegal. The only venue in ball that it is, is MLB. If anyone has bulled over a catcher in softball he is to be called out.If you watched the collage world series last year you would have see this rule inforced.
March 20, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Eddie is 100% correct, though technically that exception to the rule is not just for MLB but applies to all pro ball.

And that "slide or give up" rule would completely protect the catcher in this case. Thus NO need for the second plate.

As far as poor catcher positioning, getting run over once might teach him to play the position properly. Or to find a new hobby.
March 20, 2010
JBTexas
Men's 60
260 posts
I have see more injuries at home plate in 45 years of playing softball then any other position, wheather bad slide or collision. See
March 20, 2010
JBTexas
Men's 60
260 posts
seen one in 10 years of senior play. play of the actual catcher had little to due with any of the injuries.
March 20, 2010
Jawood
Men's 50
791 posts
I knew you would add the "standing in foul territory" issue in your discussion! lol.
March 20, 2010
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Also according to the rules, the catcher is the only fielder allowed to block his base without the ball.
March 20, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
lemons, what rule book is that in? Not in ANY one I have ever seen.
March 21, 2010
Joncon
289 posts

"Way to go Gary?"

"Thanks Joe?"


Did hell freeze over???
March 21, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Something like that. :)
March 21, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Gary do you remember Mike Scoscia being hit by Jack Clark, Scoscia had great position and Clark decked him with a right cross that Marciano would have been proud of.
There are still guys at our age who feel its ok to be just that mean and dirty, (no pun intended).
I am agreement with you on many rules issues, however this is one I like. Plus it give the umps something to do. =)
March 22, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Sure I do.

But (a) running into catchers in pro baseball is legal, it is NOT in slow-pitch. And (b) why punish the many for the possible actions of a few? And (c) those mean and dirty (no pun taken :))guys can still take out an infielder at second and third if they so choose.

So I still wonder, what is the difference between home and the other two bases where sliding into the base and potentially the fielder is allowed?

Just not logical.
March 22, 2010
4Four4
Men's 60
82 posts
Who decided that softball is a non-contact sport? Just as a good, clean, hard slide (no malice intended) is a significant offensive tool - the skill required to throw out, catch, and tag the runner is necessary and decisive.
This ain't co-ed rec ball. We play it because its as close to the "real" thing as we can get. Please don't water these plays down. (I caught hardball into my 50s, I miss the plays at home plate.)
DH #4
The Tub
March 22, 2010
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
Hey Joe Thanks for the kind words. Gary, I agree with a lot of what you say. I do not like the PPR, Screens and other than to avoid collisions, I would prefer to have 1 Home plate where sliding would be an option for the baserunner. And I can't deny, although I am not a Homerun hitter, that I love the feel of the ball coming off of the bat with the U-II. As a first baseman, it helps to know when you have a runner on first and a Left Hander at the plate, that he is prone to pull the ball down the line by the lean toward foul territory that the runner is doing, to avoid being hit. So if they allowed the runner to stand on the orange bag, it may disguise where the batter generally hits the ball. I too want the game to be as much like the game we played as young men. There are many seniors that still play softball. And many can still play the game very well. Maybe the higher brackets such as Major and Major Plus, since the players are a little more skilled, should have less of these safety rules and be more like the original game. If you like the rules play down, if you don't, try to hook up with a major or major plus team. Just a thought.
March 22, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
If I'm not mistaken the main reason for the line or secondary plate is purely safety, in large part due to the batters box conditions we see on various fields. And not due to the collision issue, although I'm sure that may play a part.
While we may enjoy sliding and think we can do it like we were 20, the facts are out there, many of us cant or just dont want to.
On a fundimental level I feel SSUSA does a pretty good job of protecting us from ourselves. Like it or not.
Play by the rules or play somewhere else. Seems rather simple.
March 23, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Sure, at this point there is little choice. But that still doesn't maek some of these rules logical.

Perhaps women should have lived in the U.S. without being able to vote or gone and lived somewhere else.

Perhaps blacks should have lived in the U.S. using seperate water fountains and restrooms, or moved somewhere else.

Again, just not always logical.

And the young guys play on the same fields we do, yet only have one home plate, and somehow they seem to survive.
March 23, 2010
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
E4/E6, Great point in that some rules protect us from ourselves. I still believe that a runner on first base ought to be able to maintain contact and leave from either base. Mel
March 23, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Perhaps they survive because they are young and more resilient.

Some things arent done for logic, in the case of rules for softball they are either for structure or safety.
Keep up the fight, you now have the right to vote for which fountain you choose to drink from, or live somewhere else.
March 23, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
That probably is part of it, as is seniors who AGAIN don't want to work at things (be it technique, mechanics, strenth, conditioning, etc.) but would rather whine about rules and/or equipment to give them won't they won't work for.

Now I understand at some point/age you can't help but get slowed down, but at 50+ most guys should be able to function in a relatively simple game without a lot of allowances. If they choose not to look for the easy way out.

But for those who don't want to, why are the rest penalized? Let them go and play checkers and the rest play "real" softball.
March 23, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Gary,
I think it's done with increasing participation/revenue at heart.
If they can make a change that means
more attendees/competitors
they make more money going forward.
All that's OK with me.
It just means we need to ask and argue
what should be changed and why.
A great point is making homeruns outs.
SSUSA has given a 10 home run limit
which few teams even get to when there's a good pitcher and some defense
being played.
We've always argued that more guys
will want to play and less lethal balls
will go up the middle if they let HR's be HR's or singles.
And arguing, as long as it's done
respectfully, is a good thing.
It stimulates brain activity and blood flow especially good for old farts like me.
March 23, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
less lethal ......mmmmmmmm don't think so.hr limits or not there will be just as many balls hit back up the middle.not having a hr limit does not make it safer for a pitcher.all it will mean,is the batters will be swinging from their heels for the hr all the time and will be mishitting more balls at the pitcher,instead of using a controlled swing and staying away from him.
March 23, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
That's a good point, Robert
and well stated but it's wrong.
When home runs are restricted
more hot balls go through the middle.
The only fielder in the middle
all the way to the fence is the pitcher
at the shortest distance to the batter
with the least reaction time
to any batted ball of any fielder.
March 23, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
there is this thing you call positioning your defense,i know its a new idea,but if thats all you can do is go middle when hr's are gone,then your either don't care about the pitchers safety,or don't have the bat control you should have.by the way that positioning i eluded to, would put a stop to the middle hitting,that you say will happen,if indeed it does happen.saying that is the only place to hit when hr's are gone is plain ridicules, as you have the whole field to work with, if your good enough there should be no problem.
March 24, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
I must admit that I never did understood the idea that the middle is the only place in which to get a base hit.

That being said, when did pitchers become in jeopardy? Fearful for their lives. At what point in time was this a concern? I know not in the 70s, 80s, or really even the 90s. Not even now, to me, but I guess others feel differently.
March 24, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Gary and Robert,
Good points but we disagree
and that's no crime.
More hot balls go through the middle
when HR's are restricted.
That is my experience and that of
most of those I have talked with.
March 24, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Since the Senior bat & hot ball combo was introduced.
Sign off or wear safety gear says it all!
March 24, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
I'll be using the "sign off" option.
March 24, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Me, too, Gary.
It's always been dangerous to pitch
or play infield when using good equipment.
Essentially, NOTHING has changed
from inside the game
though others would have us believe
it has.
All the heat is coming from "other"
or outside interests.
Good balls and bats
and the danger that comes with them
have always been an undeniable part of our game.
If you want to be more safe cause seniors in general don't react as well
to hit balls than let's put us some screens, be safer and still
have a blast.
March 24, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Prior to 1972 or there about, we used wooden bats, it didnt really matter what ball was thrown out.
You can't compare those days with anything that has come along since.
If nothing has changed why is there so much talk about things changing?
Bats have changed, hotter, balls have come and gone and come again, hotter, rules have changed because of these hotter props. We have orange bags, second home plates, or lines,we have the comit line, as well as a mat the size of Alaska. We now have to sign off or wear body armor for protection.
And nothing has changed? Now its a screen? I can hear the calliope playing, when does the rest of the circus take the field?
I stand with the "OTHER" group who advocate a step back to more sane times, a time when the greatest danger we faced was from a sliding player. Or bad lighting. Not form a ball coming at us at 140mph or faster.
March 24, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
But I'll still play. =)
March 24, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
A long time between 72 and now.
Vietnam and Richard Nixon.
That would take us back before computers,
fuel injection and catalytic converters.
No thanks, E, it's all yours
and unlike you
I won't play if the equipment is unacceptably un-fun,
as won't most of us.







March 25, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Come on J.R.if you know cars you know the 57 BelAir & Corvette had Fuel Injection as an option. Ugly Sq box sitting on top of the intake.
I saw a version of the original NASA computer set up at a store in Buena Park in 1972, it was almost as long as the Zody's store itself and 8" tall or so. What a gizmo.
I'm not saying lets go back to wooden bats, all I'm saying is we need to tone it down some. Without putting obstacles on the field, ie. a screen or Circus Tent.
Who are you going to Reno with?
March 25, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
And I know as well as most of us do, that if we had to play with sticks and rocks we would find a vacant lot to play ball on.
Tell me I'm wrong my friends.
March 25, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
MTC 60's and some 55's if need be.
Some is OK.
All the way to whiffle ball?
No thanks.
See you in Reno.
March 25, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
E4, I am with you. I play for the competition. If all I wanted to do was see how far I could hit the ball due to technology I would just play HR Derby.
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