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Discussion: Is it me or am i dreaming

Posted Discussion
March 30, 2010
viewer
2 posts
Is it me or am i dreaming
I guess senior bats are made to bridge the gap between young and old, ability and ability on the decline. i understand it bring life to the game of senior softball, but is it fair to play on my ego. What does no warranty really means.
March 30, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
For me,
Senior bats are a hedge against
poor-performance balls which have been
becoming more prominent in the last couple of years due to a combination
of factors.
Hot bats offset shitty balls.
Define hot/good balls into being
and we can use single walls and have a blast.
A good to very good, bat ball combo
is ESSENTIAL to the enjoyment of senior softball.
And that would be a majority opinion.

March 30, 2010
mad dog
Men's 65
3958 posts
viewer,the orignal senior bats came from being banned by the assoc(ASA,USSSA,NSA,ETC)3-6 MONTHS AFTER THEY CAME OUT(MIKEN UTLRA'S).SSUSA WENT WITH AS LONG ASA WOULD USE IT THEY WOULD,WELL WHEN 2004 CAME AROUND AND THEY WERE BANNED BY ASA,THE OLD GUYS STARTED CRYING THAT THEY WERE GONNA LOOSE THEIR HOT BATS.SSUSA BENT AND THAT IS THE BEGINNING OF THE SENIOR BAT.IN SHORT FORM.
March 30, 2010
Omar Khayyam
1004 posts
Viewer, senior bats are certainly not essential for the enjoyment of softball. I have enjoyed softball for almost 6 decades now, and senior bats are not even 10 years in common use.

Balls have varied over the years, but today's common balls in play are certainly better made and as hot, if not hotter, than many of the balls I have hit over the decades.

The majority opinion is easy to see, since the vast majority of associations and recreation departments, with their hundreds of thousands of players, have banned the hot "senior" bats. So the majority does not require a hot bat to enjoy the game.

What the hot bats have brought is a distortion of the game, an imbalance of defense, base running, strategy, and offense. SSUSA is way, way overloaded toward offense, and so many defensive players' talents are wasted. Infielders can't even take two steps toward a ball before it is by them. Outfielders stare helplessly as balls sail over their heads and over the fence.

mad dog is right in his history. My opinion is that the hot bats remain because it is an ego boost to those who can't hit the long ball anymore. I have some sympathy for that, but none for guys like me who NEVER hit the long ball and are suddenly hitting home runs (which I failed to accomplish in my first 50 years of playing).

When it comes to ego, and investment in pricey bats, you can see why senior bats are defended. What will finally cause them to cease is safety concerns. einstein is right, that balls are being dumbed down in some cases to compensate for the batted ball speeds that are beyond senior reflexes ability to successfully defend. And now masks and shin guards are required (unless you waive your right in writing). Next will come injury lawsuits and finally a return to safer bats, probably single wall metal bats which ruled slow pitch softball for 20+ years and don't hit any better than the wood bats I grew up with.
March 31, 2010
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2734 posts
In my opinion senior bats are here because they deter altered bats. In our local senior league we allow senior bats and pretty much know what to expect when a batter comes to the plate. There's another senior league not far from us that only allows ASA bats. One team there is known to swing mostly shaved bats, putting the honest teams at a disadvantage.
I say keep senior bats!
March 31, 2010
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
Over the years, on all of the Senior websites, this subject about the Senior bats is probably the hottest topic, and most frequently discussed. Who's right? All of the opinions above are right!

But, there are organizations that one can play Senior softball in, that do not allow the use of Senior bats. And if safety is an issue with you, you can play in those associations, and feel safe.

Our Senior leagues do not allow Senior bats, we go by USSSA rules. But, there are guys that you know who are using altered bats. So, I agree with Bruce, that Senior Bats cut down on a lot of illegal bat altering.

The banning of Senior bats by most associations is not a ban based on personal preferrance, but a ban based on liability to the associations. If players were given their choice to use any bat of their choosing, you would see many if not most, using these Senior bats in those leagues. And that, I might say, may fall into the ego catagory.

All I can say is that I will continue to use them and to play in leagues that allow them. But, if the day ever comes that they are banned, I will not quit playing softball, ever!

p.s. That new gray Miken Ultra.......Sweeeeeeeeeet
March 31, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Bruce, to an extent I see what you are saying but it seems sort of silly to allow bats that are perhaps very close to shaved-caliber just to try and eliminate shaving.

What is really being gained?

Not to mention if anyone "knows" a particular guy is using a particular shaved bat, turn him in!
March 31, 2010
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2734 posts
It's just not right that one team in the above mentioned league uses hot bats and the others don't.
It won't do any good reporting them to the league director as they don't have any rules about determining if a bat has been doctored or not.
Diehard and I agree. The players in our league voted and approved the senior bats, having to purchase additional insurance from SSUSA in order to use them. I'm sure ego has something to do with this but there is much more competition and excitement now than there was two years ago with ASA bats!
March 31, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Right on Bruce and Greg.
OK. Do you really mean to say the balls
that we used last year and this year,
those spec and under spec 44x375 Baden and other pieces of crap and others
are not worse than the 47 x 525 Super Blue Dots
or over spec 44x 375 balls marketed as hotter to compete for players interest
we used to use almost exclusively
and if so
you SIR OR MADAM,
are ignorant and/or greatly mistaken.
Lively bats and balls are
FUNDAMENTAL to the experience
of playing senior softball
and any softball as far as I
and most others who play
are concerned.
It's been documented, shown
and demonstrated over and over again
and the guys that don't get it
are out of step or trying to sell us
something.
Liability, not Safety, is an issue for the bat and ball manufacturers much more meaningfully than the non profit groups that tend to define Senior Softball Associations.
That's where all the juice is coming
from in my humble opinion.

March 31, 2010
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Viewer……..welcome to SSUSA. As mad dog said, we have been using senior bats since 2004 in SSUSA. While O K is correct in saying that the majority of associations, which include players of all ages, have banned the senior bats, he is wrong as far as the majority of seniors go. The great thing about senior softball is that you have a choice in which association you play. When I play ASA, I use ASA approved bats. When I play SSUSA, SPA, or LVSSA, I use 1.20 bpf bats.
March 31, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Bruce, I am curious since you acknowledged that ego is part of this. Are you willing to play with things like PPRs, pitcher's boxes, screens, mandatory pitcher gear, etc. and fundamentally change the game to be able to retain the special bats v. using USSSA bats?

As I have said, I have nothing against the special bats just as long as no one wants to change the game to accommodate them. It is when we start ruining the defensive aspect just so guys can artificially feel good about how they hit that I have a problem.
March 31, 2010
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
403 posts
Omar – the balls have indeed changed a lot over the last decade. When I started playing SSUSA 50+ in 2000 the balls were 47 COR 525 Comp. and bats were DW metal for the most part. No composites. When composite bats stated to show up the caliber of the softball went down.

I still believe that the 47/525 ball and DW metal bats are all players need but that day is gone, as are B&W TV sets. I also remember that the 47/525 ball still played great at 90 degrees, maybe even better as the metal bats flex better when hot.

To reduce the bpf below 1:20 with the current ball makes for a frustrating day when hot out. When the ambient Temp. is 70 degrees F. or lower the 44/375 ball and senior bat combination can be damn hot. It’s all about the ball, humidity and temperature.

Have a good season.
March 31, 2010
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
Gary, I know that you asked Bruce this question, but maybe our ego also says that we feel quite capable of fielding balls hit off of Senior bats as well. And that we don't need to incorporate all of these new rules and regulations and protections for our safety. Maybe, just maybe, we feel that we can still play this game as close as possible, to the game of our youth, without them. Most guys on my team work year round to keep their skills at the top level, and feel confident in their abilities to hit and field. If that is ego then so be it.
March 31, 2010
viewer
2 posts
I under stand all of the viewe points. Now i know how all of you feel. I Love the senior bat, but i can,t afford to break one or two a year. We are the customers and we need some voice in this matter. Don,t just tell me you buy it you own it. How about if i can send back 5 broken, you can send me one. This is a campaign.
March 31, 2010
mad dog
Men's 65
3958 posts
our senior league uses ASA balls and bats,and i can tell you we have a lot of fun and excitement.there are plays being made defensively,where if the senior bat had been involved it would of been just stand there and look at it.so do you like to move some on defense or just stand around and watch missiles hit by you.
March 31, 2010
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2734 posts
Gary, no, I don't like fundamentally changing the game. Our league leaves the rules up to us and I can't see any of those rules being added anytime soon. I don't see it comming down to going to those rules or USSSA bats in the near future.
We see players leaving that ASA senior league because "it's just not fun anymore". The are leaving that league and joining ours. We're 0-5 after last night and we still have fun. (Granted not as much as if we were in first!)
We talk about limiting runs per inning to equalize teams, the senior bat is also a great equalizer.
March 31, 2010
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
And that's what's great about the country we live in. You have choices. You can choose whatever style of softball that you wish to. Whether it's ASA, NSA, SSUSA, SPA, ISA,ISSA,or all of them. There is an organization out there that will best fit your own personal preferences. Choose it, but please don't go to an organization that does not fit your criteria and try to change it. There is no doubt you can play very competitive softball in ASA. Why, you can play very competitive softball in wooden bat leagues. But don't go and play in one organization that uses equipment that you don't care for, and moan and groan about the equipment. No one but yourself is making you play in that organization.

And as far as no warranty on the Senior bats, well these are the best bats out there and they are $100 or more cheaper than most quality ASA or USSSA bats on the market.
March 31, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
diehard, no problem with you jumping in. Unfortunately you appear to be in the minority. Too many guys seem to want these whacky rules, and too few do work year-round like you and I do. Hence, we have this dilemma of special bats creating what many lazier guys feel is the need for these silly rules.

Bruce, I did not think the idea is to artifically equalize anything. If guys want to be equal to others, they should work as hard as some do and improve their game on their own, not rely on special equipment and rules to do for them what they apparently choose not to do on their own.

Softball is not socialism, why the need for equality?
March 31, 2010
Omar Khayyam
1004 posts
I know that einstein does not respect trumpball, but trumpball is more of an expert on balls than either einstein or me (and probably THE expert on balls on this message board). Let me quote from trumpball’s post on January 18, 2010

“Red dots have a lower SI than today’s ball so they were not nearly as dangerous, also the exit speed of the ball was far less than today.

As for the t4000 ball. The new ball that we have developed is the same cor and compression as the old balls that everyone claims were so dangerous...In fact the new ball was dangerous compared to the equipment of the day, yet is much much safer than the equipment of today. Why weren't you complaining when they banned them so many years ago? The only difference between the t-4000 and the new ball is the old ball was made of surlyn and e.v.a. and the new ball is made of poly, which means the new ball does not go out of round like the old ones.

So to summmerize, no one complained when the high cor low comp balls were banned, no one complained when the ti bats were banned all for saftey.

Yet today you use equipment that exceeds the performance of both of these. “

Yes, I remember the old Super Blue Dots and they were hot. They had a short life in our neck of the woods. There were so many infield injuries, that rec departments stopped buying them and they were gone, for the most part, within a season or two. Maybe they lasted longer in other areas.

The point is that it is the bat, not the ball, that has changed the game to one with offense overwhelming the other desirable aspects of the game. A couple of years ago, in the Miken era, I saw three batters in a row jack one out over 300’ fences. That’s probably not the record.

In all my years playing with blue dot, red dot, gold dot, etc., but with wooden and/or single wall bats, I seldom saw more than one home run in a game over the 270-280 foot fences common in those days with formerly fast pitch fields. Great hitters could homer. Really good hitters, now and then. Guys like me? Never even close.
March 31, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
OK. We're done.
You instigate a reaction between Kevin
and I when none was intended
and you don't have the balls to say
who you are????
You've been exposed, ironically,
for the trouble making, malingering, out-dated and self interested clown
you truly are
and this is the last time
I'll comment on anything you,
sir or madam, have to say.

Good balls and bats forever.
That's got nothing to do with anyone
or any other interest than
that's the way
the most of us always wanna play.
April 1, 2010
Omar Khayyam
1004 posts
Let's see: I quote trumpball, a ball manufacturer and expert, to support my point. I note that his expertise might not be accepted by einstein, who disagrees with me on whether today's balls are as hot as most in the past.

I believe einstein might object, not because of any personal insight from either principal, but because einstein has spent two or three years on this forum publicly trashing trumpball, particularly claiming that he has a hidden agenda, that he is deviously supporting his own product which might be seen as a softer ball, etc. etc., which evidently drove trumpball to consider legal action.

And I am the troublemaker?!

Notice it doesn't change my point which is that einstein is wrong on the balls and that it is the super bat which has radically changed the game, for the worse, in my opinion.
April 1, 2010
mad dog
Men's 65
3958 posts
omar again here you go just posting all this and making sense.i would like to know what message board requires you to have any personal info available for public view,none that i know of,and you know what,they get along fine.by the way joe got things going himself with trumpball by be a richard to him ,when trumpball didn't pay his way to seattle for bogie's video.rip-it canceled on him,so he was trying to sucker someone else into paying his way up there.
keep your posts coming omar as they really do provide some very good insight,and i don't care who you are or care if i ever get to know your name.
April 1, 2010
Threeoutbandit
25 posts
“Red dots have a lower SI than today’s ball so they were not nearly as dangerous, also the exit speed of the ball was far less than today.

This post makes me LOL, Trumpball was talking about balls back in the late 80's very early 90's. It would be stupid on his part to say a 50cor 525 comp reddot would not do more damage than balls of today. Also players were using wood and some aluminum bat, not comps.

Iv said this before and ill say it again, IT'S ABOUT MONEY!!!!!!!!!!
Nothing more nothing less, they donot care about me you or anyone else. They want the green to roll in and that is the #1 thing that gets this crap going.
April 1, 2010
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
Sure it's about money. They provide you with goods and services. In other words, there are equipment manufacturers and suppliers that will sell you goods so you can play softball, and there are softball organizations that provide leagues and tournaments for us to play in, in order for us to get our "Softball Jones" taken care of. Softball Jones, another Softball Jones. Hey, maybe Obama will pass legislation to mandate Government controlled Senior Softball. Then our grandchildren and their kids can pay for it instead of us.
April 1, 2010
Threeoutbandit
25 posts
Sure it's about money. They provide you with goods and services. In other words, there are equipment manufacturers and suppliers that will sell you goods so you can play softball, and there are softball organizations that provide leagues and tournaments for us to play in, in order for us to get our "Softball Jones" taken care of. Softball Jones, another Softball Jones. Hey, maybe Obama will pass legislation to mandate Government controlled Senior Softball. Then our grandchildren and their kids can pay for it instead of us."\



Main problem is they care about the money more than they do the players. i still really fail to understand what your post has to do with a company or person's every other year trying to change the rules and talking about safety. Then they pop up with a new product and talk assosiations into using this equipment. We the players should have a say so in this as we are the reason the game lives on. The game was fine with good metal bats and 44 cor balls, now I donot blame comp bats for hurting the game, I blame the assosiations for failing to test these bats the proper way. So there knee jerk reaction was to screw with the balls, that was a huge fail. So there left holding the stick again. Now they go back and screw with the batted mph of a ball off the bat>>>>>> yet another huge fail as there testing was flawed again. Bottom line is until the players of the game tell the saftey crew and makers of the products we use to KNOCK IT THE HELL OFF this will keep right on going.
April 1, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
People have lost track of the fact
for a great variety or reasons
that the game we love to play
requires a lively bat/ball combo.
Always has and always will
since we was sand-lotters
and home run derby days,
forever.
Why don't they have a base hitting contest in the All Star game?
Why did Babe Ruth say he'd of hit
650 if all he wanted to do was get on base?
Because hittng a ball hard, well and far
is intrinsic to the enjoyment/appreciation
of OUR game.
Most guys use cheater bats to ensure
they don't get punked in front of their families and friends
by TD's or crappy balls
or OTHER guys using cheater bats.
Is a player/man, any player
fundamentally a cheater
and driven to cheat under most/any circumstances?
Hell no.
Only if he thinks he's being or about to be cheated by someone/anyone else.

We need to react to cheating and oppose it greatly and more than at present
and NOT opt to change the game we have
ALWAYS loved to play because it's intellectually easier to posit
or more efficient, preferrable and profitable for some.
Safety is an issue but not if it changes
our game fundamentally especially
when there's many things we can do
to make the game safer
without killing it
My point is demonstrably OUR point
and has boringly and easily been the same from the beginning.
Something and
it's proponents and adherents
have been driving down the bat/ball combo for a while to a place
that few will enjoy or want to participate in.
If SSUSA went to requiring
screens instead of tampering with our equipment and fundamental rules of engagement effective tomorrow
for all it's events this coming year
they/we all would still come and play
and have even a better time and safer time then ever before.
Why?
Because the essential fun of hitting a ball hard and well would be guaranteed
with reasonable safety measures
in place that would allow batters
to swing the bat with greater freedom from care, better
and more confidently than before.



April 1, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
855 posts
The single greatest change to Slo Pitch Softball came with the Senior Bat. There has been no other, single thing, changing it more or even coming remotely close. Talk balls and rule changes all you like, there is NO argument that will hold a candle to the Senior Bat and how it has changed Slo Pitch Softball.
Now there is hope of a screen so giant egos can be even bigger?
Almost everything said in the above post negates the issue of change and our game.
Cheaters cheat because they cant compete on a level field and feel the need to win at any cost. Insecurity at its worst.
We have as many or more cheater using altered senior bats as there were or are using ASA or USSSA bats.
Is every man prone to cheating because someone else cheats? Is every man prone to robbery or murder because others rob or kill? The answer is no.
Like everything in life, balance is the key. Maybe one day Senior Softball will return that balance to THE MAJORITY.

April 1, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
The majority has already spoken
but some just can't take it.
Game, set and match.
Lively bats/good balls, forever.
April 2, 2010
Capt Kirk
410 posts
einstein, Albert just rolled over in his grave and stated to all of the brain dead folks, it's April Fools Day just check my posts.
April 2, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joe, in all honest what "majority" spoke?

You cannot make that statement with the certainty that you do. No one can make the converse statement either. We all have opinions, but NO one knows who or what the majority feels about this.
April 2, 2010
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
All that I was trying to say is that this is America. In America we have a free market economy. So, these folks are able to sell their products, and the other folks are able to start their own softball leagues and organizations. They have the right to set the agenda, make the rules and support the products of whatever or whomever they choose to. You do not have to buy them or play in their organization. That is your choice. If you do choose to play in their organization, then you must abide by their rules.

A few years back, the ISSA played by ASA rules. Participation in these tournaments steadily declined over the years until there were very few teams that wanted to play ISSA. The organizers of the ISSA saw this steady decline and loss of revenue, and knew that they had to do something or else the organization as a whole would eventually cease to exist. So what did they do? They brought back good balls and Senior bats. Now attendance is back up, and the ISSA tournaments are exciting and fun to play in again.
April 2, 2010
DCPete
242 posts
Altered Senior bats? Really? Wouldn't a shaved or rolled U2 break in about 3 swings?
Don't know of anyone I've ever played with that's used an altered Senior bat.
April 2, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Greg.
Hey Gary.
We experienced the same phenomenon
and had the help and direction
of Gary Tryhorn in NorCal who did his own research and asked important people
important questions and found out
seniors won't attend tournaments
where the ball/bat standard is
unacceptably low.
1.2 bats and "GOOD" 375x44 balls,
like the BAden Fire balls and Trumpball
that SSUSA has been using are the minimum standard.
In LVSSA, we used better balls
and guess freakin' what?
We had a better time.
People vote by their actions and their
money and the majority, Gary,
has spoken.
Screens would be the safest and simplest
way to protect the pitcher and provide
a guiltless "whacking" good time
for all,IMNHO.
Also, using better equipment narrows
the gap between players capability
yielding more parity among teams
which encourages more participation
as one or 2 teams don't always win
everything, all the time.
The first tournament in NorCal this year in Pleasanton, spilled over into
Fremont because there were so many
freakin' teams that wanted to play
senior softball with a lively bat/ball
combo, HR's as singles, 5 run innings
and equalizer HR's at 1.


April 2, 2010
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
Joe, I agree with you. I can only go by what I see. And I see more participation in tournaments that allow the better ball - bat combo. Now,does that mean that those who are concerned about the safety and integrity of the game should not be concerned. Not at all. But if you are so concerned that you feel that your safety is at stake or the basic principles of the game are at stake, do not play in that organization. And that's all that I am saying.
April 2, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Pete, do you really think they would tell you?

Joe, the VAST majority of senior players don't play tournaments. So if the only people asked were tournament players, and probably only a small percentage of those, that by definition would be MUCH less than a majority of the guys being asked.

Anyone who thinks they cannot be successful and have fun using current Utrip bats instead of the special bats just isn't nearly as good of a hitter as they probably think they are.

Now I agree that decent to good balls should always be used. But the special bats just aren't necessary with the availability of very good Utrip bats. And, again, if we have to change rules for the special bats then they would have to go.

Let's play with any bats guys want, but just DON'T put in any of the rules to "protect" pitchers. It just messes up what could be a good game.
April 2, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Gary,
We've got in NorCal, over 2000 players
and over 100 teams most of which
don't go to national tournaments.
All you see are Ultra 2's and Combats
in the hands of the players
and thanks to Gary Tryhorn
and NorCal officers
TD's must use balls sanctioned by
the association or else.
Let's not get caught up in composite
or double wall or single wall
because that blurs the real issue
and that is regardless
of the ingredients,
the bat/ball combo MUST BE LIVELY
to be endorsed and acceptable to seniors
and I hazard for most to all
softball players.

April 2, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joe, I understand that is what they are using, same her in NE Ohio. But that doesn't mean if the special bats were banned all those guys would stop playing. I use Ultras too, but if they made us step back to Utrip bats I would still play. Heck, if they made us go to ASA bats I would still play.

So I am not sure one necessarily means the other.
April 2, 2010
Threeoutbandit
25 posts
E4/E6 you could not be more wrong if you tried. The Genesis and Ultra maxload changed the game, not senior bats.
April 3, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Parity in senior softball has come via
the ultra 2.
Lesser hitters and/or hitting teams
can "hit" with better/bigger hitting teams so that the same teams/players
don't always dominate and produce the usual boring and limiting results.
The better bat/ball combo has been
hugely responsible for increasing participation and joy of playing senior ball.
Lively bats and balls, forever
and free defensive substitution
is a way better way to increase player participation than adding batters
if we "play to win the game."
April 3, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Parity should be achieved through hard work, NOT someone else's technology.

And at least in these part participation, while not bad, has been pretty flat the past 5 or 6 years. Plus, as is always being said on here, tournament participation in general is pretty dismal.

So, sorry Joe, but I just don't see any of what you are saying.
April 3, 2010
21stCenturyCaveman
5 posts
Don't anyone count me in their 'majority'. If they banned hot bats, we'd all still be playing.
April 3, 2010
mad dog
Men's 65
3958 posts
i'm trying to figure this parity out.mmm lets see,you give 2 guys the same piece of equipment and the better player is gonna beat the less talented one right ????
now give them a super piece of equipment and the less talented guy is now gonna be equal,is that what your trying to say ??

b/c the diff in senior bats vs asa,usssa is like that.
April 3, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
855 posts
Threeoutbandit, read the attached article, The Genesis was barily if at all better then an Aluminum Double wall and the Grey Maxload was banned almost immediately. They may have been the predecessors to our current day bats, but were never close to current products we use that are legal.
I stand my my assertion that the Senior bats has change Slo Pitch more then any thing we have seen...........


Physics and Acoustics of Baseball & Softball Bats
Daniel A. Russell
Science & Mathematics Department, Kettering University, Flint, MI 48504-4898
Contents of this page are ©2005 Daniel A. Russell
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The contents of this page were last modified on March 21, 2005
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Are Composite Bats better than Aluminum Bats?

The choice of bats shown above does not reflect any preference for brand names. These just happen to be two bats that I currently have in my laboratory.

Composite material baseball and softball bats have been around for quite a while, but only in the last few years have they begun to seriously compete with aluminum bats. As far back as 1985, graphite and plastic bats were available[1,2] and by the late 1980's each of the three big bat companies - Easton, Worth, and Louisville Slugger - had graphite bats on the market. These early bats were advertised as "having the strength of aluminum and the performance of wood." They were very strong and held up to a lot of abuse, but because they did not perform nearly as well as the more popular aluminum single-walled bats then available they did not remain on the market very long. For about 10 years graphite bats pretty much dissappeared from the scene, but by the late 1990's a few small bat companies - most noticeably Miken - were reintroducing carbon fiber, or composite material, bats into the market again. Like their predecessors, these composite bats were pretty durable, but not very high performing.
But soon after 2000 things began to change. In 2001 the Louisville Slugger Genesis[3] all-composite slow-pitch softball bat achieved the #1 ranking in Performance at the 2001 Bat Wars, and just barely lost the overall #1 ranking to Worth's EST double-wall aluminum. Composite softball bats were now competing with the best available aluminum bats. There were problems with durability, however - the early Genesis bats (model SB34) were notorious for breaking after 50 or so good hits. The second generation Genesis (model SB103) has a slightly thicker wall and is more durable, though at a slight sacrifice in performance. But, the point had been made: it was possible to design and manufacturer a composite bat that could perform as well as the best aluminum bats available.

Then in May of 2002 Miken introduced their gray Velocit-E "Ultra" - which is to date the highest performing softball bat commercially available (believe it or not I have seen some prototypes which outperform the Ultra!). The Miken Ultra was so hot that organizations like the Amateur Softball Association quickly banned it, and threatened to ban all composite bats - as they had banned all titanium bats back in 1993. Instead, after much consultation with manufacturers and with advice from a couple of scientists and engineers who really understand the bat-ball collision, the ASA decided to change and toughen up the performance standards used to certify bats as being legal. Today there is a wide variety of composite choices from several manufacturers, including all-composite bats, bats with composite handles and aluminum barrels, bats with composite outer shells over aluminum barrels, and even some all-composite double-wall bats. The majority of composite bats are slow-pitch bat models and in the slow-pitch game composites definitely reign surpreme.
April 3, 2010
Threeoutbandit
25 posts
E4/E6 sorry to break in to you but the SB34 Genny was x2 any dw bat there was in preformance. Just ask any player who hit with one, and yes the ultra maxload was banned quick but the ultra 2 they put out was nothing more than the same bat with a counter weight. I LOL when anyone try's to say a dw aluminum bat would hold the shorts of the 2001-2002 comps. There is NO SENIOR BAT made now to hit with the ultra maxload. You will have some to say the grey combat will be close or ect ect ect, there still not as hot.

Btw Science tells us the earth is over 1,000,000,000 years old>>>>>> do you beleave that too?????
April 3, 2010
Omar Khayyam
1004 posts
mad dog, I think I have it figured out:

You give Super Stud a regular double wall bat and he hits one out.
Strong Guy uses the same bat and doesn’t reach the fence.
HR vs. double. No parity.

Give Super Stud a Miken and he hits one out 350 feet.
Strong Guy uses a Miken and he clears the 300 foot fence.
HR vs. HR. Parity.

Give Stud a regular double wall and he bounces one off the fence
Regular Guy uses the same bat and he doesn’t reach the fence.
Triple vs. Single. No parity.

Give Stud a Miken and he clears the fence.
Regular Guy uses a Miken and he rolls to the fence.
HR vs. double. No parity.

Give Jr. Stud a regular double wall and he rolls one to the fence.
Weak Guy uses the same bat and he barely reaches the outfielder.
Double vs. fly out. No parity.

Give Jr. Stud a Miken and he hits the gap for a double or triple.
Weak Guy uses a Miken and now he hits in front of a regular depth fielder.
Triple vs. single. No parity.

So, the only way there is parity is if Strong Guy can now hit home runs. In 5 out of 6 other scenarios, there is no parity.
April 4, 2010
stick8
1325 posts
Einstein, hope all is well with you and yours.
You posted something that caught my eye. Presuming your rreferring to use of special bats, when you say "lesser hitting players/teams can "hit" with bigger/better teams" I'm not so sure I agree with that. If what you say was true then you would see more AAA teams playing major or major plus teams even up. In a sense there would almost be no need for assigning teams to a particular level.
April 4, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Stick,
We see it in NorCal all the time
as we have major and major plus team
and sometimes AAA all in the same tournament.
When HR's are singles,
runs at 5 an inning
and equalizer HR's at 1,
as in NorCal and should be
in other associations,
big shots only merit a HR till one up
and are only walks after that.
When lesser hitting guys get up
they can hit better with the good equipment and get their runs more easily hitting balls sharply and hard with the better bat/ball combo.
We see it and play with it
ALL THE TIME here in NorCal and
it works out very, very well.
Last week, for example
we played a low tier major team
with my major plus guys
and ended up beating them by one run
in a terrific game that was enjoyed
and appreciated by ALL.
All to say, Stick,
you Hall of Famer, you,
as the great majority of players
have indicated with their participation,
purchases and attendance
at senior events
as in NorCal,
seniors if not ALL ball players
want/need lively bat/ball combo
or it's "NO DEAL" for Senior ball.
You guys got to make a trip to NorCal
and check it/us out.
August 21st or so would be a great weekend to do it at the NCSSA championships.

April 4, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Good bats/balls, forever.
Screens if you need to protect the pitcher
and free defensive subbing
is a better way to increase participation
if "we play---to win--the game."
April 4, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
What a lot of people don't get, Stick
is that the AAA to average hitter receives the most benefit from better bat/ball combo.
He can hit the ball sharply enough
to get it by or through the infield
or into a gap or over the head
of an outfielder who's "cheating in".
All the hullabaloo is about the bigger hitters and that's a smoke screen.

Almost every old guy I see
has got an ultra 2
in his bag as it's still sets
the standard for senior softball.
We like to hit with the best equipment
we can find whoever makes or sells it.
Why is that so hard to understand
and accept?
Anything else is ignorance and/or
self interest.
April 4, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
855 posts
Threeoutbandit, no arguement from me on the Genesis SB34 or Original Maxload. But they werent around long enough to impact our game. However when the Ultra II came along with a few others they have and are continuing to cheapen Senior Softball. Do I use them, yes I do, if I dont I cant compete. Do I like them? Of course I do. Would I put mine away if told we couldnt use them any longer? In a heart beat. Will that happen? No I sad to say it wont!
And our scientist tell us the earth is 4.5 to 5 billion years old, since most of them have been studing it longer then I have, I choose to agree with them.

E, theres nothing ignorant about a different view, about anything. With that said, it can be said your view is ignorant, is there a difference?
Theres nothing wrong with old school thought. Some of us prefer a more balanced game, and some dont.
I am also wondering when you will be jumping on Threeoutbandit for his anonymity?

April 4, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
E. Ignorance is not a pejorative term.
It means literally, "not knowing".
There are many reasons why someone may not know what the truth is or the meaning of a given phenomenon.
And if you felt/believed as meaningfully deeply as I and many others do
about playing with good bats and balls
than like me
you would refuse to play
in support of your position.
April 4, 2010
mad dog
Men's 65
3958 posts
E4/E6 as long as someone agrees with him he doesn't care who they are,its only when they stand up to him,that he cry's like a baby b/c he can't go and email crap to them.
senior bats started from the banned bats from the assoc's that wouldn't let players use them for being so hot.we had no such senior bats when i started playing and for the next 3 yrs.
there is no parity between middle of the road players and super players regardless of what bat is used.a u-2 in a AA player does not put him even with a AAA or above player,especially if both use the u-2.to me it is just an ego thing with ball players who can't use ASA,USSSA equipment and suceed,i have no prol and i'm not a M+ player,why is it that the higher level player wants the senior bats more than the middle of the road players,mmm maybe an ego so they can hit a ball 400-500',why hr's only need to go 300'.i'm gonna laugh my azz off when the balls all get dummied down and these so called players have to hit that ball.
April 4, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
We, in NorCal,
play in 6 team brackets, five games
a weekend and oftentimes
in one bracket they'll be Major plus,
major and AAA teams
and because of 5 run innings,
equalizer home runs at 1
and HR's as walks and
Ultra 2 level senior bats
we play together competitively
ALL THE TIME.
It's obvious, Bob,
that without Ultra 2 level bats
this wouldn't be possible
as they allow lesser teams
the oppty to get more hits
and keep defenses more honest
thereby promoting meaningful parity.
April 5, 2010
Omar Khayyam
1004 posts
einstein is correct that NorCal not only allows the senior bats, but also ranks teams solely by their skill, irrespective of age or ranking by SSUSA. Therefore, as the season goes along, it brings real parity to the brackets, since TDs will put closely ranked teams in the same bracket. It has nothing to do with the hot bat/ball combo.

What einstein does not mention is that this is NOT how SSUSA ranks teams. A look at NorCal’s website is revealing. In the Pleasanton tournament, for example, in one six-team bracket there was a Major Plus team, a new team—perhaps a major, three AAA, and a AA team! How can this be, you ask. Because the Major Plus team was playing all teams YOUNGER than they were, some by 10 years!

And the results? Surprise, surprise. Despite the age difference, the Major Plus team took the tournament, the AA team came in last (and they were the youngest team), and the possible major team was the only team to beat the Major Plus by one run. This is supposed parity!

NorCal also has a handicapping system to even up brackets, giving weaker teams as much as 7 runs, and also giving weaker teams an extra player up the middle. Even with these handicaps, with Mikens, major plus teams still win; lower ranked teams still lose. Why? The reason is found in the hypothetical team matchups I listed above. Mikens do not bring parity to weaker teams.

Even in einstein’s example, he notes that his Major Plus team STILL won, although some games were “close”.
April 5, 2010
stick8
1325 posts
Einstein thank you for your input. I don't disagree with much of what you say. While your perspective of AAA players individually getting the most out of the special bats is likely correct, I was referring to this from a team perspective. If a AAA team played a major plus team 10 times it's a safe bet that the major plus team would win 9 or even 10 times. The talent is simply better at major plus even with special bats and lower hr limits.
I agree with Dirty on the bats issue. If the bats are deemed legal that's fine, just don't make special gimmick rules.
April 5, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Stick.
The underlying point I'm trying to get at is that an average player receives
the most advantage from the Ultra 2
or a lively bat/ball combo
especially with our equalizer rules
in NorCal.
Singles and doubles guys have to be able to hit a ball hard enough to beat an infielder, outfielder or
get it into a gap
and keeps infielders and outfielders
from cheating in order to strangle them off and shut them down.
Since most players are NOT major plus players it becomes obvious that most players benefit from the Ultra 2 level bats/good balls and that's where all the participation and money come from.
Senior softball HAS SPOKEN in every meaningful way.
Game, set and match.
It endorses 1.2 senior bats and good enough balls but importantly,
we need to stay alert and vigilant
regarding future developments
and influences on OUR game.
Good bats/balls, forever
and free defensive subbing RULES.

April 5, 2010
mad dog
Men's 65
3958 posts
that average player or team does get a little boost from the super bats,but it does nothing for their defense,in fact balls will be hit harder at them now with the super bat and they will only get to field a ball only if its hit directly at them,there is no going in the hole to make a play,where as the upper team will be able to,as they will have the more talented players.so now tell me where an u-2 even things out,it doesn't,it just makes the upper team that much better.lower levels yes get to hit the ball a little harder but should they with the lack of talented for fielding and such,as the ball just whistle's by them.we will get someone killed with this super equipment we have and you don't care as long as its not you.
also we do not have a god given right to this equipment,it was banned when it first came out.seniors were only allowed to use it when all the old cry babies whined till ssusa broke down and let us use it.
like i have said,if your a real player use the safer equipment and let your skill show how good you are not some super bat,that doesn't require work ethic to advance.
April 5, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
855 posts
E, Ignorant can also mean, Unaware or Uninstructed.
And my guess would be if our Senior bats and lively balls were taken away, you and your "Majority" would still play ball. If you love the game as much as you profess.
I think you are primarily a pitcher, correct? I also believe you play some other infield position(s), try playing any of the infield positions for an entire Tournament season and then honestly tell us how many balls got by you because you just couldnt react quick enough to glove them. Hitting a ball more then 300' is a waste of air, hitting a ball so hard most infielders have no chance of defending their position isnt fun. Every form of baseball or softball was and should be based on a balanced offense and defense. Senior bats and some of the balls we use have taken that away from the game we now play.
I know I wont get an answer but I'll ask anyway, didnt we have fun prior to the introduction of Senior equipment? I know I did or I wouldnt be playing now. I am quite sure MOST players today also had fun prior to this new era.
Now you advocate a screen? And free defensive subbing. Whats next? A designated runner planted beside the hitter?
April 5, 2010
stick8
1325 posts
Einstein don't get me wrong, I totally understand the individual thrill out of hitting special bats with good balls. I was referring to teams vs teams. Rules may be a good equalizer where your at in NorCal but I just don't see a AAA team beating a major plus team very often--even with equalizer rules.
April 5, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
E4, you pale by your own argument.
You wouldn't boycott playing if the game is too dangerous and corrupted
by high tech bats and exploding balls.
And you expect anyone to believe
or respect you for your assertions,
criticisms and views?
Good luck.
Good bats and balls is how the game
is meant and most fun to be played.
Hitting a ball hard and well
is huge fun and the guys, by and large, who argue against it are the guys who can't do it, themselves
and they're obvious, E.
April 6, 2010
Omar Khayyam
1004 posts
einstein asserts that the majority of players want lively bats/balls (by that he means Miken level power).

einstein asserts that if players can't have lively bats/balls, the majority will stop playing because it will no longer be "fun"

einstein asserts that the majority who disagree with him can't hit the ball hard and well.

einstein asserts that the majority of posters on this site identify themselves fully by name, age, and location.

All of these "majority" assertions are unproved and fantasies of his own mind—just a way to dismiss others without making sound arguments for his own positions, especially in light of the persuasive arguments against him.

Maybe he should leave the opinions behind and focus on playing ball, where he is widely known as an excellent, competitive, long-ball-hitting, fearless player.
April 6, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
From the views of 24 who took the poll on two of the things mentioned above:

*10. The Cor\Comp balls you prefer.
40\375-400: 3
44\375: 17
47\525: 3
52\275: 1

*21. Would like to see bats:
Stay the same: 16
Get Hotter: 0
Become Less Lively: 8

Nothing wrong with being ambiguous as long as your concerns are honest and fourthright.

Omar, are you in Ripon this weekend? I will be.
April 6, 2010
DCPete
242 posts
It's quite a reach to assume that all "upper team" players are great fielders capable of handling balls hit with U2's and that all "lower team" players are bad fielders who can't catch a ball hit with a U2.
April 6, 2010
Omar Khayyam
1004 posts
taits, thanks for the poll results. Helps shed some light on discussions. I only wish that it were 240 respondents, or even better, 2400 respondents, to get a widespread sense on these questions. But it's a good start. Any input on the age brackets of those responding?
April 6, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You're a waste of a good man's time
and a gutless trouble maker, OK.
You have nothing to say to the rest of us
and that would be a majority opinion, too.
April 6, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
855 posts
E, you make my point everytime, Thank you!
Always skirting the issue, TRYING to read something that isnt there between the lines or never a direct answer to a direct question.
Keep this up and what little credibility you have left will vanish.
Hope to see you in Reno.

April 6, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
Omar,
You playing in Ripon?
I believe it was one that played under 50 on occasion, or played down to that bracket, 50's and up to 75 also had one.
The results had questions & answer choices, totals.
Trying to get site to make like here or v-bulletin message board. SB fans is another I mentioned.

April 6, 2010
mad dog
Men's 65
3958 posts
OK,E4/E6.. E is a lame excuse for a person,all he cares for is his own agenda.i feel he is afraid to use regular equipment as it might expose his inability to play.he says the ones that are standing up to him are really "players who can't play" well i'll put myself up against him any day,as i'm not afraid to compete,maybe he is,or is it only if he thinks he has the advantage.

he still hasn't answer the question i posed in my post above of"how does giving a avg player a super bat,make him equal to the higher level players",it doesn't as far as i see,just makes the higher level player that much more above the avg player.

i really would like to see E answer questions that are put to him,before he goes onto his soapbox and trying to bully everyone.

yes i'll be prolly be called names for this as E does to Omar,but i don't care,i've had better people than him try to talk down to me,oh they didn't succeed either.
April 6, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Robert and John.
You guys and I disagree.
We really do and that's cool.
You're men who show-up like Gary,
Kevin, Dbax and many others I don't normally agree with who wouldn't dare be critical or start trouble with anyone without standing in
as ourselves.
Throwing stones and acting important
without being accountable is nowhere
and nowhere good.
though it may be popular
in today's pop culture.

April 6, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
sad puppy, way to take the high road.






Not!
April 7, 2010
mad dog
Men's 65
3958 posts
dipstick,what road,didn't know i was traveling on one.

and like i've said before,this is an open message board,no need for any public info to sign up like all other message boards.
Sign-in to reply or add to a discussion or post your own message and start a new discussion. If you don't have a message board account, please register for a free nickname. It will only take a moment.
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