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Discussion: Bat Cheating...

Posted Discussion
April 2, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Bat Cheating...
The answer to bat cheating MUST BE
go after and discourage cheating
and NOT change/water down
the game for everyone else.

In time, if rules are not enforced
the general population will begin
disregarding them even to their own demise, like speed limits on a highway.
So there's got to be some teeth and enforcement against bat cheating
more so than now which appears
non existent.
I know Trumpball had an idea he can talk to, about chips in the bat
which would detect cheaters.
Magnets and balance point checks
to test for end loading.
We need an effective way to move
against cheating/cheaters
what should be done????
Balance point checks



in bat cheating rules
April 2, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Sorry guys.
The last 2 lines were fragments.
Here's the clean copy.

The answer to bat cheating MUST BE
go after and discourage cheating
and NOT change/water down
the game for everyone else.

In time, if rules are not enforced
the general population will begin
disregarding them even to their own demise, like speed limits on a highway.
So there's got to be some teeth and enforcement against bat cheating
more so than now which appears
non existent.
I know Trumpball had an idea he can talk to, about chips in the bat
which would detect cheaters.
Magnets and balance point checks
to test for end loading.
We need an effective way to move
against cheating/cheaters
what should be done????
April 2, 2010
titanhd
Men's 50
314 posts
GUYS!
We all know the agenda.There is no need to add to this post
Please just let him rant.
April 2, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Give the cheaters a five-year ban. Heck, for guys this age that could amount to a lifetime ban.
April 2, 2010
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2581 posts
I agree with suspensions....for the offender as well as manager and possibly teammates.
April 2, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Cheating, unlike some other contentions
about the true condition
of senior softball
is a real issue that is not being addressed enough by anyone.
We know Seniors don't cheat to the level
that some think or want to think
but it is very real and if you have a meaningful rule
there must be a way to enforce it
or it will backfire into disrespect
and abuse.
I favor the 5 year ban
Gary has suggested and random checks
of bats regarding balance points
and magnets and alteration
like thinning the handle.
Remember, any altered bat
is illegal and can be prosecuted
as such.
This is an issue that can help us settle
larger issues about safety and bat/ball
liveliness that mark present day
senior softball concerns.

We need to begin pressing organizations
to develop a meaningful policy
to detect and deter bat cheating and cheaters to help return a healthy respect for senior softball
and one another.
April 2, 2010
Wes
Men's 65
306 posts
There is ONLY ONE way to stop bat cheating.

IF YOU KNOW ONE TURN THEM IN
wes
April 2, 2010
stick8
1238 posts
Turning commonly known cheaters in will help, no doubt.
It's a hassle but where I ump at (USSSA) we're instituting a mandatory bat check on a compression machine at every tournament. If a bat tests a certain amount below the acceptable compression the bat is not allowed to be used. In this scenario it may not necessarily be shaved of altered.
If it tests further below that certain amount then there is reasonable suspicion that it may be altered or shaved and thus is sent to the national office to be cut open.
The only true way to detect bat shaving is to cut the bat open.
If it was up to me those caught using shaved bats should be banned for life.
April 2, 2010
Robo2
214 posts
Bat cheaters have many ways to hide what they do. Having a PST honed out; stripping the paint off an Ultra II or titanium and re-paint or add labels; etc.

I remember an SPA tournament in Tx when a team from Louisianna came from behind in one inning by hitting HR after HR while passing the bat. The sound that bat made was the broken egg sound of an Ultra II. We could not prove it and nobody knew any of their names.

My opinion, I think allowing the senior bats levels the playing field and is a good thing.
April 2, 2010
DCPete
228 posts
Stick; almost hate to ask, but what would be done in the event the bat was cut open and found to be legal?
April 2, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
DC, I would guess the bat would be sent back to the owner................in pieces. Freight collect!
April 3, 2010
Omar Khayyam
958 posts
I agree with einstein. Something should be done to deal with bat cheating. stick8 says ban the cheater for life and I agree if it can be proved that the batter willfully altered the bat, not that some poor shnook in the dugout took advantage of the offer to "use my bat".

In that case, or where a player unwittingly bought an altered bat, the penalty has to be less.

Maybe I am naive, but I don't see any senior softball cheating (I may be blind to it) and I don't even hear rumors about specific guys. Is this a major plus problem? Or just a young guy's problem?
April 4, 2010
stick8
1238 posts
DCPete, while every precaution is thoroughly taken before cutting the bat open I'm not certain of what official protocall is in your scenario. I would suspect they would owe that individual a new bat. Chances are if the bat was sent to the national office to be cut open it wouldn't have passed the original compression test, therefore wouldn't be allowed to use.
April 4, 2010
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
Agree with suspensions for the bat cheaters. Why is doctoring a Miken nessesary? Don't agree with the manager getting it also.
April 4, 2010
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Is there not a $300.00 protest fee that the protesting team has to pay? That way the batter gets to buy a new bat and SSUSA gets some money too.
April 4, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4250 posts
I do not find ant "fee" listed.
But it might be a good idea especially if proven legal.

Dave, if you are reading.... I looked for Protest in 1.53,
it refers to 5.12(3) which does not exist.... as far as I can find... was seeking to find any monetary reference.
April 4, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4250 posts
Yes, a typo strikes again... ANY fee.....
April 4, 2010
titanhd
Men's 50
314 posts
There'd be a big issue if someone tried to take any of my equipment.You don't have to give your bat to anyone simply because someone files a protest.You may be prevented from using it but legally you shouldn't be allowed to take someones bat and send it anywhere simply based on suspicion.At least you're not taking mine....
April 4, 2010
DoubleL10
Men's 65
797 posts
titanhd, SSUSA's penalty for not surrendering a bat to Tournament officials is a minimum one year suspension from play. So, it is, in fact, your option to keep your bat; however, there are sanctions in place for doing so.
April 4, 2010
SSUSA Staff
1006 posts
taits -
Rulebook §1.53 (pg. 12) describes the three areas of protest available to a manager or acting manager:
1. Misinterpretation of a playing rule;
2. Illegal substitute; and/or
3. Ineligible player
• The reference therein to Rulebook §5.12(3) does in fact exist. It's on page 43 and deals with the composition and function of the Protest Committee.
• There is NO PROTEST FEE in SSUSA sanctioned events, but a protest may only be lodged by a manager or acting-manager.

titanhd -
Nobody has the authority to confiscate a player's equipment, however there are provisions in the Rulebook to address what happens if a player refuses to voluntarity surrender a suspected Altered Bat for testing or a suspected Illegal Bat for inspection:
Altered Bat - Rulebook §3.4(7) on page 21, as follows:
1. Immediate 10 year player suspension and one year for manager for refusal to voluntarity release the bat for testing;
2. Five year player suspension if bat is found to be altered, and manager for one year, plus all games in tournament are forfeited; and
3. Second player offense for Altered Bat use is a lifetime ban.
Illegal Bat - Rulebook §3.4(8) on page 22, as follows:
1. Immediate one (1) year minimum player suspension for refusal to voluntarity release the bat for inspection. There will be a subsequent hearing to determine if the term of suspension shall be lengthened, depending on the facts and circumstances of the incident.
2 If the bat is determined to be "Illegal", as opposed to "Altered", the batter will be declared out (and also the bat owner, if not the batter) and ejected from the tournament.
• Any decision a player might make with respect to voluntarily surrendering a suspected Altered or Illegal bat is solely his/hers, and that decision should be made on a fully informed basis as to what happens if that player refuses to voluntarily surrender. Tournament Directors welcome input from any source, including their own observations, those of umpires, other players and spectators when it involves identifying suspected Altered or Illegal bats. The fact that a formal protest of the bat in question was not made by a manager or acting manager as part of a formal protest is neither relevant nor a valid defense against sanctions.
April 5, 2010
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
titanhd,
Read down the message board a lttle and you will see that "you do" have to turn your bat over, or face suspension !
April 5, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1931 posts
Just an observation on cheating. I cannot wrap my mind around the idea of 'shaving' a bat or steroids for a game that I play for recreation and competition. I had to ask what shaving is this year(head in the sand)? I believe it reflects on your whole life if you decide to cheat at this game. It is a sad commentary on our society that it appears to be so rampant.
April 5, 2010
curty
Men's 60
99 posts
what is in place concerning bat testing in the event of injury? Will the bat (and ball) be automatically confiscated? There are many scenario's here where there may also be a personal responsibility.
April 5, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4250 posts
I got that from the 1.53 on page 12, but isn't the reference at the end pointing to 5.12(3) as mentioned, way out of numerical order.
You go from 5.1 on page 36, to 5.9 on page 40, but then 5.10 on 41, which I see as out of order unless the new math has become newer yet. And the 5.12(3) on 43 as mentioned... I thing the edit job got missed here for placement. Since all in in the computer as stated it should be an easy fix for next year.

Better than the long web version page volume wise.
April 5, 2010
titanhd
Men's 50
314 posts
#6. I can not fathom ever using an altered bat nor would I condone it.I know that my bats are stock from the factory and I can understand if someone was injured off my batted ball-that the association would want to take a look at the bat and i would be fine with that.
For any other "I think" reason you are not taking my bat.PERIOD.
April 5, 2010
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Just saying.......You're in the championship game of the tourney........Your manager protests the bat that the big hitter from the other team is using because he thinks that it is an illegal bat.The ump, not being able to tell by just looking at it, asks for the bat. This makes the big hitter mad. If he gives it up, he is without his favorite bat. If he doesn't give it up, he is out of SSUSA for a year. It might be worth someone's effort, if it means winning a ring. It won't cost you a dime.
April 5, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
sal,i'm thinking the next time i get into a tourney,i'm gonna ask the ump to check bats at opportune times,if ya know what i mean.
all cheaters should be banned a min of 5 yrs,also i think we need to have a bat tester for our senior tourney's to keep the bats at regulation level's.i think usssa's is any bat testing under 200 is declared not good for play,we should test ours also.the tester is not that expensive,about the same or less than a defib machine.
April 5, 2010
Omar Khayyam
958 posts
Webbie, you're right on about cheating at softball telling a lot about the player as a person. So far, I know the terms "rolling" "shaving" but don't quite understand them. I'm glad I don't play with any guys who are able to enlighten me. Maybe it isn't so rampant among older seniors.
April 5, 2010
titanhd
Men's 50
314 posts
MAD DOG.To my understanding the person that initiates the bat challenge doesn't have to be a part of the game -on any team in the tournament and can even be a spectator in the stands? Anyone can initate the "fight" lol!
I was at the recent TOC and over heard a player from another team in a totally different division /age group that was standing behind the backstop- tell the umpire that a player was using a "shaved" bat. The umpire asked him how he knew and his reply was because it doesn't sound right and it's not an UltraII. He asked "why is everyone else on that team using Ultra's and that guy is using a worth bat".What logic! To my amazement. The umpire actually went to this teams dugout and examined this persons bat.Nothing became of it and the umpire finally told the guy to go away but, you can see the implication .
April 5, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
titan,i thought that was what i was reading,was just afriad to put it that way in my post.ok then,guess i'll start watching teams i'm gonna play and protest their bats before we have to play them,DOH,LOL.whats gonna happen is with all the crap going on,we will be hitting the ball most of ya's fear,the 52-275.usssa already has it in place.
April 7, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1931 posts
Every time I can remember that the decreased the resiliency of the balls, it takes them 2 years to figure out how to keep it at that level for a reasonable amount of swings. The rf-80 was the worst. It started at the expected level, but softened in a couple innings to where you could barely get it out of the infield. Why don't they just back off the bats instead of this. The Trump Stote is a good ball, why mess with it.We are still going to buy just as many bats at the 'freak' level.That bat is still PLENTY hot.
April 7, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
webbie,you do know that is our alienable right to hit the hottest bat/ball around,or we can't have any fun.
April 7, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Dog, I found that if you use dry ice on the 44/375 it actually comes off the U II like a golf ball coming off a Callaway Driver being hit by one of the Long Drive champions. 380 to 420 YARDS easy. Why mess hitting mere feet when we can hit for yardage instead.
Now thats fun boys!
April 7, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
sad puppy, take it outside.
April 8, 2010
hoovedog
Men's 50
65 posts
Played at Big League Dreams here in League City Tx last night. A kid on our team hit a weak shot at the Pitchers ankle, bounced off his ankle, pitcher picks up the ball and throws out the batter. The umpire promptly stopped the game, consficated the bat (a brand new Freak Plus) called the Complex Director,and are Reviewing the Bat and may or may not send it off. New rule in effect at B L Dreams, since a pitcher got hit in the Head causing a Double Fracture(front and Back of Skull.)
April 9, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Overreactions to anything
just like in the French Revolution
tend to end up back-firing
although the guillotine would make
a good start.
There's always danger in baseball/softball--
always was and always will be.
Let's stop crying/whining/warning/threatening/suing
and let's play ball.
Let guys where protection or not
like hockey goalies and let's play ball.
The more we get loud
about protection and safety
the more we should go to screens
and keep the best of both worlds
instead of jeopardizing, crippling and bankrupting our game.
Baseball is dangerous.
Basketball is dangerous.
Football is mega, off the charts dangerous.
Ice hockey is dangerous.
Wrestling is dangerous.
Boxing is dangerous.
Martial Arts is dangerous.
Driving a car is dangerous.
Breathing the air is dangerous.
Taking a walk is dangerous.
Telling the truth is dangerous, too.
C'mon now.
Let's all take a deep breath
and let's play ball.


April 9, 2010
hoovedog
Men's 50
65 posts
I hera ya Einstein,, I think Senior Softball is safe. But at B L Dreams here in Tx. That was the 3rd Skull Fracture in 6 Mo. 1 Death. You have Major league and Triple A dropouts being picked up for a game of Slowpitch
at B L Dreams using one of their friends
"HOT BATS",, core .44x375 Balls,, and no equipment in he world
would save you from a Blast up the Middle from these guys.. The new Consfication Rule is working,,more and more guys are going legal..
April 9, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Safety aside.
Senior bats have taken defense out of Senior Softball on all levels. If the ball is squared up and isnt hit withing one step of a postion player theres very little chance of it being knocked down, let alone caught. 300" fences are obsolete to the average player.
If there werent HR limits our game would be no more then a Derby.
E, lets not over react?, comparing Senior Softball to a War is more then an over reaction. Ever have someone shooting at you with something more then a 44/375?
April 9, 2010
titanhd
Men's 50
314 posts
Einstein. Do you hit the middle after your teams HR limit has been used?
April 9, 2010
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
E4/E6,
I play third and SS, I admit I have "rockets" hit at me...but there is no way I would want the bats changed, or the balls for that matter changed. There's a lot of balls I have to dive for and they do get to you faster with the senior bats, but I am OK with the senior bats. Altered bats, is another matter.

Good Luck in 2010.
April 9, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
#6 as long as everyone is using the Senior Bats & Balls, I too will use them. If they disappear tomorrow I wouldnt loose sleep over it.
My point is and always will be, Senior Bats have taken the balance from Senior Softball offense/defense. It is now an offense minded game. All you need do is look at the scoreboards.
Back at you in 2010!
April 9, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
E4/E6 you are definately right about no d any more in senior ball,and the ones we do make look like,"hey look what i caught" as we just throw a glove out there just to see if the ball might hit it.
titan of course he does,b/c thats the only place these power hitters can go to get a hit.
#6 remember i've seen you play,DOH,LOL.
April 9, 2010
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
E4/E6,
Don't you think "slow pitch" softball has always been a hitters game ? It's simple, you score more runs than me...you win. The pitchers are not throwing 95 MPH fast balls.Here it is.......hit it, I have good defense behind me.

mag dog......are you playing in OK. this weekend, or here in Austin ?

Take care, and see you in Baytown ?
April 9, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
#6, I can still remember playing games that had scores like baseball. High scoring games while not unusual werent nearly like we see today. You see it as much as I do, 25,30,35 runs seems to be what a team has to score to win.
To answer your question, of course Slo Pitch is more offense oriented. Its just far more offense oriented with senior Bats and less dependent on defense.
He who scores most has always been the winner. Only now its 42 to 36, instaed of 10 to 8.

Good luck wherever you play this weekend!
April 9, 2010
stick8
1238 posts
#6, E/4 E/6, Senior ball is definitely a more offensive game. At the higher levels, good hitters are going to get their hits, especially with the bats and balls we use. However if that team has a bunch of pylons in the field they're going to give up a lot of unnecessary runs also. But if that team has some skilled defensive players they will tend not to give up those unnecessary runs. Hence, "offense wins you games defense wins you tournaments" or "the best offense is a good defense" still rings true--jmho.
April 9, 2010
DCPete
228 posts
There are plenty of arguments to be made for or against using Senior bats without resorting to exaggerations or misstating the facts.
We were fortunate enough to win our last tournament playing 55 AAA using Ultra 2's with the Trump Stote ball on 300' fences.
As a team, we hit 2 HRs in 6 games & our opponents hit a total of 3.
The Stote ball was OK at best; we wouldn't want to play with anything less.
April 9, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Stick.
You're right on.
Defense is the key to winning big games
and championships.
Pitching has become more prominent
in senior ball as more pitchers
are throwing more balls with movement
i.e. curves and knuckleballs
that can keep the ball off the sweetspot
and alter a batter's timing or goals.
Way to go, 6.
I agree with you, too.

Good bats and balls
are INTEGRAL to the enjoyment/experience
of playing ball.
Always has.
Always will.
Don't want to get hurt?
Go play co-ed.
Too much cheating?
Bust the cheaters and suspend 'em.
Don't change the whole game
and all the innocent guys because
it's hard to figure out a good/tough
policy to deal with cheaters.
First step is ensure good/lively equipment will be used so players will know that they can perform well
and have fun.

April 9, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
HI 6,I'M UP IN OK.I CAN'T MAKE BAYTOWN,NOT SURE WHERE WE GO AFTER THAT.
April 10, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Bat and ball changes have and probably always will happen to give players what they believe to be an edge on the next guy.
When we were younger the guys who could afford the new bats had the edge on those who couldnt afford them.
Now that we are older most all of us can afford the most current, advanced products as they come out which makes the playing field more level.
With this technology scores have soared, when scores soar defenses takes a beating. Or the scoring averages would never change.
April 10, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You, John, like some others but not
most others miss the point.
We MUST use lively equipment to enjoy
the game we grew up playing.
It's a must.
It's so important it drives some guys to cheat.
It is ESSENTIAL to the well being
of our game.
It underlies and undergirds the entire
game.
That's why issues like safety-first and liability won't overpower us and the game we love to play.

I saw D.Lee of Chicago hit a rocket into the upper deck last night.
The place went wild.
Lively bat/ball combo, do you think?
Of course it is.
They're tuning up the balls in hardball
right now to get the best results.
And what was all the BS and self righteous crap about steroids for????

April 10, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
ok i need an explanation,where doesmit say ,"must use this equipment to have fun",is it in the rule book,or what.i have fun every time i step on a field,regardless of equipment i have to use.
secondly where was this equipment when i was growing up,i used wiiden bats till 73,than rann into al(pre al bat days).this great technology(composite) has only been around for 8 yrs,with the math there is no i grew with it nor have you.
April 10, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
oops doesmit should of been "does it",fat fingers on laptop not good.
April 10, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Joe I havent missed anything when it comes to enjoying anything with a 9 to 16" ball. Be it minor league hardball or sandlot softball, however I do know I dont need special bats and balls to throughly enjoy playing these sports.
They do not enhance the enjoyment, they do however take away part, read this closely, P A R T of the game itself, by limiting the defensive aspect of the game.
And in my opinion may one day be the undoing of softball as we knew it not that many years ago.

Show me a hot bat in MLB and I'll show you a doctored bat. You can shave, bone, roll or cork a wooden bat and it still hits like a wooden bat.

Cheaters cheat, not to feel good about themselves, they cheat to gain an edge, pure and simple.

"The Steroid issue is/was BS and self righteous?" What planet have you been living on? All anyone has to do is look at the Homerun output and batting averages last year in MLB to know steroids were a HUGE influence.
Without steroids the average hitter now has his warning track power back. Without steroids the average pitcher is now back to winning 10 to 12 games with eras over 4.25.
This is what you will see IF the Steroid crowd is inducted into the Hall of Fame *******




April 11, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joe, I have to admit that most of us DON'T need to use the special bats to enjoy the game. Most us just need something comparable to USSSA equipment, and good competition. Many of us would play with ASA equipment. Some of us would still play with wood bats.

That seniors need special bats is, honestly, embarrassing to many of us. A number I have talked to find it sad that guys actually get off on needing special equipment to try and do in their 50s and 60s what they couldn't in their 20s and 30s.

You certainly have the right to need and find essential whatever you like. But please understand that many of us don't share that view. MANY of us.
April 11, 2010
Omar Khayyam
958 posts
Dirty, one of the best comments you've ever posted. I would only add:

Paragraph #1: as one who would play and enjoy playing even with wooden bats, I think you could say the vast MAJORITY of players would still enjoy the game with bats that were less powerful (after all, they did so for three or more decades already or they wouldn't be senior players today).

Paragraph #2: as one self-confessed Miken hitter who hit his first home run(s) with such a bat in a half century of playing, I am a star example of the guy who is doing in his old age what he couldn't do in the prime of his youth. And it is embarrassing to a degree. Hard to explain to my son, for example, who laughs at the "cheap" power from our senior bats.

Paragraph #3: "MANY"? More likely the MAJORITY.
April 11, 2010
DCPete
228 posts
All these blanket statements about the use of Senior bats are incorrect when you look at the facts vs just voicing opinions.
The facts are that these bats do Not determine the outcome of the games by themselves. It also depends on the ball being used, the fields, the weather and the players themselves.
When the 50 Major Plus boys are using Senior bats on 300' fences in Las Vegas with the Trump Rock ball it's pretty much a HR derby with the outcome usually decided by who can score the most runs in the unlimited inning.
But in the 2009 Winter Nationals in Florida using Senior bats on 325' fences and the Trump Stote ball, none of the 55 Major teams scored more than 23 runs in any game of the entire double elimination round.
Not suggesting the bats or other equipment should be adjusted for each tournament, skill level or age group . . . just pointing out that any blanket comments on whether Senior bats are or are not ruining the game are just plain wrong when you look at the actual results.
April 11, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
3 words, guys and gals.
Game, set and match.
Lively bats/balls, now and forever.
April 12, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Omar, my son teases me about the very same thing.

Pete, if the use of the special bats results in ANY types artificial rules changes(PPRs, screens, mandatory protective gear, pitcher's boxes, etc.) then yes they ARE starting to ruin the game.

Joe, you are probably correct. Insecure guys have indeed taken over the game. :(
April 12, 2010
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
I had a great time in Burlington last year at the ASA Worlds. Bat and Ball combo was very good. But to those who say that the Majority prefers not using the Senior Bats, how do you explain the fact that the participation at the SSUSA World Championships in Phoenix dwarfs the participation in the ASA National Championships? East and West coast! How do you explain the fact that other than the National Championships that ASA has, the vast Majority of tournaments attended by Seniors each year (major tournaments)are either SSUSA or SPA,and ISSA, which ALL allow the use of Senior bats. Guys, I know your reasons for not wanting to use Senior bats, but you sound silly when you start using the word majority, because the facts in tournament play prove you wrong! Now league play where liability becomes an issue, the use of ASA equipment may be in the majority, only because it is mandated by the leagues and organizations that run them. And not the players!
April 12, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1931 posts
E4/E6 You are right about the steroids in the majors. Did you see Sammy Sosa when he came back-he was a little skinny guy! Maybe they need a Steroid Hall of Fame separate from Cooperstown. Steroids added strength, fluidity, longevity and resiliency for aging bodies, and, to me the intangible was what I call free-swinging. I know when I am swinging well my confidence level goes way up and I relax which produces a nice easy swing. I know I can mis-hit a ball and it will still go out. A lot of these guys had the same. Corking bats really only allowed a lighter bat for the length allowing for a greater swing speed and more power from that. The cork itself was proven to be a non-issue. I agree it is time to step the bats back a bit and bring a little more defense into the game. I will also bet we will all still be playing if they do!!
April 12, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
E, thats 10 words.

OK Dirty Webbie, I am quite sure we all are correct when we say the Majority would still play with out special equipment. Are we going to keep playing with it? Of course, we have to, to compete.


April 12, 2010
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
E4/E6.......You are correct, the majority would play with out special equipment. Actually, the majority IS playing with out special equipment. I checked the SSUSA, SPA, and ISSA rules.......they do not allow special equiipment.
April 12, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
They most certainly do. Show me how many non-senior tournaments allow Ultra 2s.

We sir are "special", and in this case not in a particularly good way.
April 12, 2010
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Dirty.....You must have ventured to this web site by mistake. Welcome to SeniorSoftball.com. When we play non-senior tournaments, we follow the rules of the association governing the tournament.
April 12, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
And here I thought we are all playing softball.

Sure we play by the rules of the governing association, and if you want to trick yourself into believing we are playing the same game as the kids or the same game that we used to, go right ahead.

But some of us prefer to recognize that we have many among us with little securities and fragile egos who need special bats to feel good about themselves in their twilight.
April 12, 2010
Omar Khayyam
958 posts
Softball is the most popular sport in America with 40,000,000 players in a game each year.

Maybe half of those players are in regular play (company league, rec league, senior league, girls fast pitch, church league, etc.).

Of those 20,000,000 players, about 45,000 are in senior softball league/tournament play.

Other than the 45,000, probably ALL of the other groups do not allow the Ultra 2 bat to be used.

Of the 45,000 seniors, many (most?) of them play in associations that also ban the Ultra 2s.

The result is that about 1/10 of 1 percent of all softball league/tournament players are allowed to use the Ultra 2. I would call that special!
April 12, 2010
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
OK.......You are correct, when you take into account all ages. Only problem with your logic is that Terry cares not what non-seniors think. Those players do not come to the senior tournaments to participate. The ones that do participate in the senior tournaments seem to like the senior bats. I figure that if they did not, they would not come. According to your stats, we are not the only game in town. Those that don't like the senior bats can play with the other 19,055,000 players.
April 12, 2010
homefry
Men's 55
8 posts
hmm..let me chime in if I may...

Pitched all my life, started with unlimited arc, and have "adjusted" as rules were changed.

I LOVE to pitch (there's nothing better than setting up a hitter for YOUR pitch)and play defense-that should be half of the game.

This year we have gone to 6'-10' pitching rules--and today I'm on the internet shopping for chest protectors and helmets to play defense. Something doesn't feel right here...

As far as the bats, until this year I have never hit a ball over the fence. Using a Ultra 2 in batting practice-I've hit one out EVERY day of practice.

Here's my point: Play with all the jacked up bats you want, I'll put on the gear and give it a go. But when you take away halo rules, unlimited arc, tournaments are nothing more than a glorified BP session.

Basehits and defense "used" to make a difference--now it's more--"what are the bats, and what's the HR rule at a tourney"

You get your bats, then give me the arc...if nothing else, it gives me more time to back up and play defense.

Thoughts?
April 12, 2010
Donnie C
17 posts
I recall in the late 60's and early 70's all we had were wooden bats. I recall players getting a hardball bat and shaving it down, staining it and stamping officil softball on it. Some folks always wanted an edge even back than. I always looked for a (legal)wooden bat that would give me the best production. Aluminum bats are no different I would think we would use the best that is out there. Technology has and always has been great. If the original ultra 2 is legal I would use it. I have always checked out the balls used to see what kind they are and feel good when they are balls that are prone to go further. Illegal bat usage should be dealt with put a stop to it. Donny C.
April 12, 2010
Omar Khayyam
958 posts
Homefry, you're catching on. Like you I've pitched all my life and played defense. Like you, I valued the defense behind us and a light-hitting, but great-fielding shortstop was a treasure. With the advent of the hot bats, less than a decade ago, the game has radically changed.

It is no longer a balanced game of defense, base running, strategy, and offense—the game that most seniors played and enjoyed for decades before being fortunate enough to still play at the senior level. Defense is diminished—in the outfield by balls over the fence and rockets to the gap that are unstoppable (and often by former so-so hitters); in the infield by balls whizzing by before you can take a second step.

If an out-of-shape guy can hit the long ball with a super bat, we just put a runner in for him once he puffs into second. Offense, offense, offense—that's the name of the game now.

It's sad, and it's not the softball that we enjoyed for decades, but evidently Dirty is right—some guys "need special bats to feel good about themselves in their twilight."

My main concern is the loss of a balanced game. For others, it is safety. SSUSA, which started the trend with its acceptance of the hot super bats, now realizes the risk and MANDATES the wearing of helmets and leg protection by pitchers because of the danger. Oh, sure, pitchers can waive their protection, but SSUSA knows the liability they have now taken on.

And don't frustrate yourself waiting for the higher arc. The same hitters that demand the super bats for their ego are also against a higher arc that might make it harder to hit.
April 13, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1931 posts
E$/E6 of course to compete you have to use the best equipment. But, I am willing to bet if they backed off of all the bats that only we special seniors are allowed to use, that almost everyone would continue to play. I say almost, because there would probably be a few that didn't. Most of us still play to stay in shape in our older age, play for the love of the game, the competition and, of course, the beer drinking after it's over. Most players I talk to feel blessed that we are still healthy enough to play. I don't get the mentality that 'has' to have the super hot bats.
April 13, 2010
tattooball
601 posts
Omar, you are right on point with this one. The thing I don't like about the game is that they had to create new rules. Rules no one has ever heard of before, JUST BECAUSE OF THE EQUIPMENT. Here is the worst of them all. SCORE FIVE RUNS AND CHANGE SIDES, This is because of the super bats. Softball and baseball should and was never intented to be played this way, same goes for a time limit.
April 13, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
trumpball, thank you for reminding me of two of the dumbest rules ever put into softball just to accommodate the artificial offense that special bats create.

Amazing what guys will allow to happen just so they can use someone else's R&D to look like they have talent.
April 13, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
The rule you sited, Kevin,
is used in NorCal and has to do with keeping better teams
from running lesser teams
"out the gym" so to speak
to ensure competitiveness given
the great range of talent
and capability one finds in senior ball.
Hotter bat/balls help the average
player have a better experience
as he feels and performs better,
as we all do
when using better equipment.
The better equipment is more of an equalizer in softball than a drug
for big hitters and makes the game
more fun to play for the most part
for all involved just like what was experienced in LVSSA, last year.
April 13, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
It's also to ensure that teams get
to play whole or near whole games
thereby getting more bang for the buck
rather than getting mercy-ruled
after 3 or 4 innings.
Again, the 5 run rule has to do with the enjoyment of softball experienced by the most players and not the elite or better ones.
April 13, 2010
Donnie C
17 posts
As a pitcher I love the unlimited arc, it gives a picher who can throw high and throw strikes a big edge. Get a batter behind and better than average chance of a pop up or strike out. Strikeouts happen much more in unlimited arc by far, seldom in 6'-12'. To hit unlimited arc is much more difficult for the average player. A lot of heavy hitters do not like unlimited arc as it takes away there edge. All though I have had batters take my high arc and put it 350 feet. I have had to chance my batting style since playing in unlimited arc and the long ball does not come as it once did. I do not get a creak in my neck by looking at balls going over the fence as much in unlimited arc. Donny C.
April 13, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joe, if teams don't want to get run out of the gym they should work to get better. In what other sport, at any level, are scores artifically kept down? NONE that I can think of. To keep me in the game by making up silly rules is embarassing to anyone who needs them. Run limits are just another way to complete de-emphasize defense, and it is a shame.

I can see that many guys are "feeling better" about being able to hit due to the technology of others. Hey, I have an idea. Let's create a national slam dunk circuit using trampolines. Now that would sure make me feel like the Doctor. :(

We never had problems playing whole games in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Look at what has changed, and you will see the real culprit in all this. We used to play in 50, 60, or more team brackets without run or time limits. Now there are problems running 6 team brackets without them? Not too tough to figure out what the problem really is.
April 13, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I know you're views on this Gary
and share with you that in a very real sense the game should never have been changed at all.
It looks like Senior Softball
has changed in some meaningful
ways away from softball
as we once knew it and
we're all concerned, rightly so
about what those changes are and mean.
My mantra which is shared by most softball players is that the bat/ball
combo needs to be lively to ensure
the enjoyment and ROI for most players.
It fuels everything and is the most important aspect of our game.
It undergirds why seniors will invest
in bats that can crack in 10 swings
and why younger guys will invest in a huge weekend with their families
to go play ball--
the good equipment ensures they'll at least do, feel and look good
covering their significant to huge investment of time and energy
playing ball.
This is getting overlooked
and undervalued every time we talk about the "too hot bats and balls", Gary
and it's absolutely critical to the game
that most of us play, played
and want to play.
I've never met a player who likes to
or wants to play with a crappy bat
and ball.
Not one, ever, never.
That's what we've learned in NorCal,
Gary.
We've been able to "save" the vital
nature of the game so that we will continue to invest in and have fun
playing the game.
Lively bats and balls, forever.
That
April 13, 2010
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
If all of Senior Softball decided to ban the use of the Senior bats, I believe, and this is just my opinion, that the altering of bats would be widespread. But what rule changes would take place if these bats were eliminated. Because even in ASA they use the extended mat at home plate, and that is a change in the basic format of the game of softball that we all played years ago, and the mat has nothing to do with the bats. I believe that the mat eliminates the job of an ump to use his own judgement as to whether the pitch was a ball or a strike. And also, it lengthens a pitchers target area. So what rules would or should be eliminated, to get the game back to the games of 70's,80'sand 90's?
April 13, 2010
tattooball
601 posts
Next it is going to like t-ball, no one keeps score because you don't want to hurt the other teams feelings, and everyone gets a trophy for participating. OH BOY I CAN'T WAIT TIL NEXT YEAR.........
April 13, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joe, I completely agree that no one want to play with crappy bats and balls. It just seems, though, like there is plenty of middle ground in 2010 and beyond between the special bats we use and wood bats and Harwoods. And perhaps, in this middle ground, we would not need to the siily rules that we either have now or are being advocated by some. That is my biggest concern, NO more silly rules.

diehard, I am all for getting rid of mats completely. The strike zone was never intended to be horizontal, and was never intended to be the same size for someone 5'5" and 6'8". Yet this is what we get with the mat. Why we have mats is completely beyond me.

Eliminate mats, second home plates, screens, mandatory gear, pitcher's boxes, run limits, time limits, and PPRs. That gets us back to the simple game we used to play.
April 13, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
We disagree, Kevin.
Lively bats and balls forever, and
anything else is ignorance
or self interest talking.
Check us out in NorCal sometime
with our 5 run innings and equalizer
HR's at 1 and HR's as walks
and watch us compete
at the highest level
of softball in the country
with Longhorns, the Barons,
East Bay Oldies and MTC 50's,
OMEN, MTC 55's and 60's
right in our own backyard
along-side Major and AAA seniors
in the same weekend
all the while trying to keep
hot balls off the pitchers
and we have a blast.
April 13, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
I cant remember the last time I cared about looking good while playing ball.
Maybe High School, while trying to impress a chearleader?

I've never met anyone who has said they would quit playing ball if they had to give up their Senior bats, never.
This is softball, Senior Slo Pitch Softball, there isnt anything that makes it critical, imperative, vital, or even necessary, to play it. Other then a glove, a stick and a rock.
One guy trying to hit a bottle cap past another guy with a piece of leather on his hand to try and stop the cap from getting by him. Very simple.

The great range of talent has been broken down into divisions and age brackets to eliminate being "Blown out of the Gym". And still teams get "Blown out of the Gym".

I suppose the question should be, why mess with something that didnt need messing with so a few could look good playing with other Seniors.

Kevin, wheres MY trophy? =)







April 13, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
There's always room to disagree, Kevin
and E.
Of course I think I'm right and
of course you think you're right.
That's all good and by presenting
the conflict as clearly as possible
for/to the community
everyone is advantaged.
You keep saying bats and lose sight of the bat/ball combo
which is vital to the experience
of enjoying softball as most of us
experience and have come to enjoy it.
The Forum is great.
Our community is great and hopefully,
we'll keep working on and out stuff
till we get it right.
April 13, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
E, I say Bats because thats my greatest concern. With very rare exception you can throw out almost any ball to the pitching rubber and they will hit nearly the same. I know some are less lively then others, but for the most part the Bat is the hottest issue.

We agree, our community needs to continue to talk about issues that concern us.
April 13, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joe, I think the biggest "issue" some of the guys are having is your characterization that most guys won't continue to play without the special bats. I just don't believe that, as it appears that others don't either.

Would some quit? I suppose, but for those guys I wouldn't want them anyway if that is their attitude. I play for the competition, don't we "play the game to win"?
April 13, 2010
udaplaya
91 posts
Let us enjoy the performance improvements due to technology in the same manner as golfers - they love it!

And....give it a rest guys. The same core group of you argue about the same basic things every week of every year. Just start referencing your old posts on the same subject rather than taking up the whole board. I would rather hear about results, teams, new equipment/uniforms, upcoming events, rather than the same old stuff.
April 13, 2010
pushin60
Men's 60
63 posts
Gary, when you golf, if you do, are you using the current technology in equipment, or are your clubs still wood?
April 13, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
but guys,in golf the PGA is putting reins on the mfg'ers and the making of hot equipment.notice the grooves on the irons have gone back to the old style(i think they are going from the square ones vs V shaped)to keep the golfers from getting more spin on the ball.they also have made sure the club face on the woods only flex so much and this has been there for a long time.

just why is it we need this hot bat/ball combo to be able to enjoy playing softball,this question still has not been answered by the ones pushing the hot equipment.
i enjoy any time i can get on a field to play regardless of equipment,and i play a lot other than senior ball,in fact my senior league goes with ASA bat/ball combo and guess what,we have a great time playing,there is defensive plays being made that otherwise we wouldn't see with the hot combo's.
this past weekend i play in a senior tourney and had a bunch of doubles,why you say as i'm not the fastest guy around.well the outfield had to play so deep b/c of the hot bat/ball combo i could just go to 2b b/c they were so far back in the outfield.now tell me where the enjoyment is there,unless your ego is so blown up that you need it to feel good about yourself.
April 13, 2010
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
mad dog,

You just answered your own question. We don't need the hot ball/bat combo, we want it. And by saying that your Senior league uses ASA bat/ball combo proves that you can play Senior softball and have fun. And I agree with you. But you do not have to play in organizations that do allow the hot bat/ball combination. That is your choice to do so. So I ask you why do you want to take something away from those that enjoy the bat/ball combo, and change the game that they enjoy playing, when you can go out and play Senior softball, and use the equipment that you prefer to use and have fun? That to me sounds very selfish. And that is the question that I think that has not been answered!
April 13, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Diehard I can think of two reasons why many of us, in the West at least, continue to play with Senior bats, show me where we can play in major events without crossing two or more states and with the great competition SSUSA provides. If you can I'll start playing there.
In my opinion the selfish attitude comes from the other side, those advocationg Hot Bats/Hot Balls, safety gear, screens, a pitchers box, mats the size of Texas, and rules that favor only the offensive side of Softball.
Why not start a Altered/Hot Bat/Ball Tournament to satisfy those egos instead of changing something as pure and simple as Slo Pitch Softball?
The simple side of the game has been around far longer then the Senior bat!
In the end those of us who would like to see defense brought back into Senior Softball will have to live with the equipment of the day, or do whats not an option..............not play.
If thats selfish then I guess I am.
April 13, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
No, I no longer use wood clubs. But I also use the same clubs that golfers of all ages can legally use, and not special clubs made just for guys over 50. THAT is my point.

April 13, 2010
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
So you are asking an organization that had these rules already in place before you came to play, to change their rules to accomodate you. And you are calling them selfish? Why not start a league of your own, that does not use these rules. You go out and organize the event, you promote this event, but don't go play in an organization that has these rules already in place and demand that they change because you can't find major events that do not use the rules that you are in favor of. And then turn around and demean the individuals that choose to do so. That E4/E6 is selfish.
April 13, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
The game, Gary, has been evolving
for years.
Better helmets, gloves, balls, hats,
sunglasses, cleats, bats,
food, vitamins, drinks, conditioning,
surgical technology, rules et cetera.
Bats from wood to metal,
to aluminum to double walls
to carbon fiber...
There's a natural progression
to use/find
better equipment with a lively bat/ball
combo always the mantra, the grail
of playing ball.
Don't get lost on today's version
of the best equipment and lose sight of where the fun and best experience
for most lives and breathes.
Hit 'em hard, fast, far, well and often.
And let's play ball.
April 13, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joe, I understand that. But allowing certain groups to legally use certain equipment is a relatively new phenomena.

Again, I don't really care what equipment is used as long as NO fundamental rules are changed because of it. And many have sadly been.
April 13, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Diehard not one of these rules was in place before I started playing Senior Ball, no mats, no pitchers safety gear, no talk of screens to protect players, and certainly no Senior Bats, the balls we used were pretty much as we use now.
There was no need for them.
So my statement is demeaning to players who advocate Senior bats? I suppose yours, being on the other side isnt?
Changing the rules of Slo Pitch Softball to accomodate Senior Bats and a more lively ball is a slap in the face to those who enjoy playing a more balanced offense and defense.
I love SSUSA and the many events they put in place for us, thats why I play them, not because they allow hotter bats then some other organization.
Their events arent better because of the equipment they allow, but because of how well they prepare those events.





April 13, 2010
DCPete
228 posts
A lot of good points in this "discussion" with the notable exception of all the revisionist history.
There were a lot of runs scored and HRs being hit with aluminum bats in the 90s using the Worth 48 cor Super Blue Dot ball.
April 13, 2010
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
E4/E6, when I hear that because we like a certain type of bat because of our egos, when you start saying that using Senior bats is the same as altering bats, those are words that say that I am not able to choose for myself what type of equipment I like to play with, because my ego won't allow me to or you are insinuating that I am a cheater. And that is demeaning. I have said that your points are valid ones, and that you can play in leagues that do not allow the use of these bats, and still enjoy the game of softball. Nothing that I have said is demeaning to you. I can't speak of what your softball organizations are like on the West coast, but here on the East coast, we have our choice. You can play ASA, ISA, ISSA, SSUSA, NSA, USSSA and probably some that I don't remember or even know about. But I do know one thing, very few West Coast teams travel East to try those differing styles of softball. Whenever I have played West Coast teams it's been because the East travels West to Phoenix,Vegas, California or Texas, or at the TOC, which by the way were all or all SSUSA events. Which uses the Senior Bats.
April 13, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
mmmm lets see,we can go play all those other assoc if we don't like the hot bat/ball combo.ok where,how many tourney's all together do these other assoc put on.we are stuck to play SPA,SSUSA,and such,as there are no others to play in,and i'm not talking about the other assoc once a yr worlds/nationals.
now for the changes,the senior orgs all had the same bat condition and that was if the other assoc(ASA,USSSA,NSA,ISA,etc) could use it we could.when the ultra's came out ASA had them banned within 3-4 months,than the u-2 came to replace them and ASA was ok for about 6 months than put them on the on the ban list 1 jan 04.you should of heard the crying when that happen from the senior players,ssusa was the first to see the $ and let them be used.SPA and i think ISSA were the last to break down on let them be used.so in reality your senior bat is nothing but a banned bat with the ability to sneak thru the old 1.2 test which is known to be a very flawed test.
April 13, 2010
homefry
Men's 55
8 posts
Einstein says: "Lively bats and balls forever, and anything else is ignorance
or self interest talking"

I guess I'm either ignorant, or my concerns of my health(and others)is selfish. I'll take that all under consideration.

Not every softball team has the luxury of color coordinated bat bags, and the average size of 6'2" and 240 like some of the higher end teams.

Our team is a bunch of scrappers, and need to play fundamental defense and string together base hits to play with the big boys. If that's old-school softball, and not what todays Senior player is looking for..then I guess I missed the boat. I don't consider HR derby style games as interesting softball.

As other pitchers concurred-I have no issue with hot bats, IF you allow me to bring my best pitch to throw you off your swing. When guys jack one out on me with my best pitch, I applaud..when I throw meat to you, and a flyball carries over the fence, I get pissed.

Balance the game-give pitchers a chance!

It would be interesting to track injuries this year to corner infielders and pitchers on hard shots...
April 14, 2010
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
I just want to say that at the age of 57, I am glad to be able to step out onto the field and play softball. I also do not want to sound like someone who is telling people to what to do with the game that they also love playing, because they disagree with the equipment changes that have been made to the game. I do understand your concerns. But I didn't know what options were available to you, in order for you to play out on the West coast. It sounds like not many. But honestly, I don't see this game that you are describing. Screens to protect pitchers, never seen those! Guys with huge egos blasting homerun after homerun, don't see that either! The PPR is no longer an issue. The extended mat is in all forms of Senior ball, and that has nothing to do with bats! The extra plate at home, is in all associations that have Senior ball. The orange bag at first, again all associations. These last two do not have anything to do with bats. This has never been a game where pitchers rule, it has always been a hitters game.
April 14, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Greg, when I refer to altered/Senior bats I could care less what an individual hits. I use Senior bats like almost everyone else. I use that reference because an altered bat hits like a senior bat. I am sorry if I came across like I was accusing.
I never said screens were in use, only that some have advocated the use of them. Why? because of the increased speed of the ball as it passes through middle.
The mat was originally put behind homeplate to give the ump, pitcher, and batter a better idea of the strike zone. It has since, (in the past two or three years) grown to encompass the entire home plate plus an inch or so of width. Why?
No PPR? why do pitchers have to wear protective gear or sign a waiver? Thats the new PPR.
If you have never seen a Senior Softball homerun derby you are missing something. Something boring.
I, like you am happy when I can step onto a ball diamond, regardless of the equipment we use. However take away current Hot bats and balls and I wouldnt notice, except for the chance of reaching more balls hit near me.
Balanced Offense and Defense is where its at!


April 14, 2010
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
I have seen what could ammount to a Homerun Derby. 2 years ago, in Phoenix, Gekle Builders vs. Northwest Legends. At Papago Park, I sat and watched ball after ball sail out into the twilight with the mountains in the backround, all while I was sipping a nice cold beer. I had a great time, even though my team had just got knocked out of the 50 majors. But neither of those teams won the Championship, a good solid hitting team, Coors light did. But those games imo are rare. John, while we may agree to disagree on some things in softball, the one thing that we do agree on is our passion for the game. And that's what it's all about.
April 14, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Good Play, good friends and new aquaintances makes us all come back. I'll call you a friend!
Even tho you live on the wrong coast. =)

My niece lives in Baltimore, and I rag on her all the time.
April 15, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
John and I disagree, Greg
almost all the time.
There's been no loss of respect
and we're looking forward to meeting
and chatting in Reno.
Lively balls and bats are absolutely
essential to the health of our game
and free defensive subbing is better
than letting everyone bat
if "we play...to win...the game."
April 16, 2010
stick8
1238 posts
Einstein, while hitting with senior bats and good balls is nice I have to disagree that eliminating those would hurt senior softball. I'm sure people would complain but if the associations did that I seriously doubt teams would stay home and not play. I believe there are plenty of players who love to play and would be happy to play with USSSA bats or NSA bats. IMO, one of the major deterrents from teams participating in senior tournaments are the expenses involved in traveling.
April 16, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
stick, if teams did stay home because of that then let them. Who needs big babies playing anyway?

Seriously, I really question anyone who would stay home because all they can us are today's Utrip bats. Those guys would have serious issues.
April 16, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Lets not forget "The Majority Has Spoken"

"Cooler Bats for a More Balanced game"
April 16, 2010
Omar Khayyam
958 posts
E4, love your slogan: "Cooler Bats For a More Balanced Game." Catchy.

If this were to be a reality, here are some things that would follow:

We would admire the home run hitter more than ever, since he, not technology, would earn it.

Good defensive players with light bats would be more valuable and be able to contribute to a win.

Base-running and strategy would regain their importance.

More fields would open up that are now closed because the fences can't contain the hot bats.

It would end the talk about screens, masks, helmets, body armor, etc.

We would play the game we loved for 40 years before the advent of the super bats.
April 16, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Stick, you Hall of Famer, you.
I'd call you a singles/doubles hitter
and an extraordinarily accomplished one that doesn't represent the masses of seniors or the average hitter/player
and therefore doesn't really get
why very good bats and balls fuel
the senior game if not the whole game.

And, I have a couple of USSSA bats
that are as hot as my Ultra and will get hotter still before they explode.
1.2 bats?
That's actually 1.21 bats
and senior bats are rated the same way
and there's really no difference.
I said ad nauseum that we need a lively/good/hot bat/ball combo
to enjoy the game, our game.
All this weeping, whining and gnashing of teeth is a minority view
and doesn't carry water
I'm happy to say.
Look at sales, look at SSUSA and other association participation since
they have stopped the slide
to restricted flight balls
and wooden bats.
Now I know what I looked like
all that time I was slamming folks
about platooning.
Sheeesh!
April 16, 2010
diehard
Men's 55
245 posts
While I would agree the USSA bats are great and there are some very good ASA bats out there, I know firsthand all too well that just because you are not using a U II or any type of Senior bat, does not prevent one from getting injured, as I was slammed in the mouth in 1992 by a ball hit off of a Steele's bat resulting in 3 1/2 hrs of surgery and my mouth was wired shut for a month. So, injuries will still happen. But I believe that the Senior bat will be around for awhile.
April 17, 2010
stick8
1238 posts
Dirty I can't speak for anyone else but whether it's the senior bats or u-trip bats for me it's just love of the game and a desire to compete.
I have no issue with senior bats (unless they're shaved or altered) but if players stay home because they can't swing an ultra II then I question their desire to play.
April 17, 2010
stick8
1238 posts
Einstein if your u-trip bats are just as hot as your ultra II what difference would it make if you use one or the other?
April 18, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
That's the point stick.
There is no meaningful difference
so what's all the hub-ub about.
April 19, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1931 posts
Anybody remember the Orange Crush bat from a few years ago? I got mine out for BP this weekend. When you hit it on the sweet spot, it flew just fine. The big difference-I knew when I mis-hit it because it didn't go. I didn't hit any 'cheapies' 300 feet plus with it. The ball didn't go unless 'I' launched it with a good swing. The bat didn't do the launching. I realized I had become a bit sloppy with my swing, but it sure doesn't show up with the U2. We have become so spoiled by the U2 and it's ilk. This is my 42nd year playing slowpitch (since 1969) and I have seen the pendulum swing back an forth between the hot balls and the dead balls, and the hot bats and the wood bats. Even during the days of the T4000 and the Hot Dots, I cannot remember it being so difficult to get outs. We feel like we let them off the hook if we don't get our 5 runs, or 7 runs. That used to be a good inning. Now we use a run limit to 'equalize' the game, because double digit innings would be so common.You have to have the 'best' equipment to compete, but I would not lose any sleep if the U2, Freak, Combats, and all the rest disappeared tomorrow. I will still be out there stretching a single to a double or diving for a ball in the outfield, or hustling to a base hit in the outfield to keep the batter at first and keep the double play on until the Good Lord tells me physically that I can't anymore.
April 19, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Stick, a couple of things.
You aren't the average hitter/player.
They've already spoken about what they want and that's lively bats and balls.
I for one and there's lots more like me
are fed up and have hit a tipping point
around investing more and getting less
out of senior softball.
Happily that's not the case in NorCal
where we play most our games.
I think most players are fed up with all the changes/self interest/high cost
involved with we're experiencing
and want the carousel ride to stop
but not where the players get screwed
which has happened way more than it should.
SSUSA, for one,
has helped stop the slide
to less lively bats and balls
and deserve our support
for doing so.
The more I think about it
the more I think screens are the way to go to insure safety and us having a good time.
If they take away the fun of hitting
a ball hard, fast and far
they will lose us, probably for good.







April 19, 2010
stick8
1238 posts
Einstein I have no issue with senior bats (I'm going to be using one for the first time) but I have a hard time believing that if all senior bats were suddenly banned that senior softball teams would fold their tents. From what I've observed the pas t 2 years the vast majority love the game way too much to quit playing.
April 19, 2010
stick8
1238 posts
Webbie I rememebr the Mizunos very well. I used to be individually sponsored by them. The original Techfire, Rage, Fury and the Orange Crush were all good bats but they didn't hold up very long. Then the Blur came out and that was garbage. Then the Envy came out & that was supposed to be the best of all and it was worse then the Blur!! I gave them up a while ago but they now have the Frenzy which from what people that have used it say it's pretty hot.
April 19, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Sounds like whining to me, lets hear that teeth gnashing.
I have yet to read one word about defense from the "Majority", its all hit hit hit.
Now its a screen, I can hear the Circus Organ playing now. Whats next? face paint and juggling?
I would almost guaranty not more then one, (that one being the "Majority"), player would quit playing if Senior bats were banned.
"Cooler bats for a balanced game"
April 19, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
April 18, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
1906 posts
That's the point stick.
There is no meaningful difference
so what's all the hub-ub about.

E's answer to stick on the diff in using usssa/nsa bats vs senior bats.
so there it is -GAME,SET,MATCH.
we don't need senior bats to play folks.
April 19, 2010
stick8
1238 posts
E4/E6 it wouldn't shock me if they put in where base runners could overrun 2nd and 3d base.
April 19, 2010
stick8
1238 posts
Mad Dog, playing against conference teams fairly recently I can tell you they hit it just as hard if not harder and farther as the 50 major plus guys do. Of course it's widely rumored the majority of conference players shave their bats
April 19, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1931 posts
Stick8-non of these bats hold up well. I have yet to make it through a season without at least 2 U2's. My Crush is out of round, but still had pop to about 340-350 if I got ahold of it. BUT-you had to hit it--no cheapies!!!
E4/E6 We actually played overrunning the bases last weekend----yucckk!!Let's get back to playing our game, not some watered down version.
April 19, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Nice bit of flair, Bob,
I must say.
But, my point was
there's no difference between a hot,
broken in 1.2 USSSA bat like a Freak
or Freak Plus or Super Freak
and an Ultra 2 or other senior bats.
I had a Freak that got hot for over 100 swings and it was hotter than any U2 because it was more end loaded.
Senior bats are fine and not the primary problem with senior ball.
A poor bat/ball combo is.
All the problems stem from
not letting/insuring that a lively bat/ball combo will be employed.
Good bats and balls forever
and develop a system,
like Kevin's bat chip system
to nail/stop cheaters and
let's go after 'em.
April 19, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Or, let's go with screens
to protect the pitchers
and have a blast playing ball.
April 19, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Of course safety is primary, but lets look at how out of balance our game has become.
Guys can argue all they like about still making plays. And yes most of us can still make the play when we dont have to turn and move more then a step or two, unless we are playing outside of our arm strength and ability to make a throw to first. The facts will back me up. A 44/375 off a broken in Senior travels nearly 4 mph faster then a non composite bat or lesser ball. The average senior cant make that 4 mph up no matter what he tries. Even cheating to a spot usually wont help.
I love softball as much as the next guy and have always prided myself on my defense. But am humbled by the Senior Bat.
Because I choose not to cut off my ample nose to spite my ugly mug, I will continue to play, I will use what equipment is legal and I will certainly continue to lobby for the balance to return, hopefully before I walk off the field for the last time.
For those playing Palm Springs this weekend, I hope to see some of you there.
April 19, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
well i don't think there is any comparison between any senior bat and the usssa/nsa bats.the senior wins all the time with both bats broken in the same.now if u wanna take a just out of the wrapper senior vs a 1000 hit usssa/nsa bat,yes they will be closer but i think the senior still is hotter.

how will screens in the middle of our playing field make it a blast,it doesn't,no way.what is a blast is seeing someone go in the hole and getting a grounder and throwing the batter out at first.senior bats don't allow that to happen,unless your standing there already.
something has to give for the real fun(playing D,strategy on the bases,and such,not standing with arms reach of the fence) to come back into the game,whether it be the bat or ball(i'm thinking its gonna be the ball,less $ for players).
so go ahead and have YOUR fun now.
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