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Discussion: Pitchers Reaction Time Study

Posted Discussion
April 29, 2010
Al T
8 posts
Pitchers Reaction Time Study
Food for thought

http://journals.pepublishing.com/content/d5h43631355j2jh4/fulltext.pdf
April 29, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Studies can show whatever the researcher wants them to. Real life is the best study of all.
April 29, 2010
tattooball
620 posts
The tragic accident that happened this past weekend is one of 6 deaths that have happened in the past 2 years. Many more players are walking around with plates in their heads and faces, some we know some we don't.

I also read about Herb Score and Tony Conigliaro's injuries. There is a huge difference between the 2, baseballs have a cor value and softballs have a low cor value. I have read about many pitchers getting hit with a baseball, I have not read or heard of a baseball dying from a head impact. All of the one I have read about in the SGMA documents have all been an impact to the chest that stopped the heart. (tragic indeed) In softball it is both head and chest impacts that are killing our teammates.
April 29, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
For the oldest and slowest group of players to be the only ones using the hottest bats is absurd. Reflexes slow MUCH faster than bat speed.

May 1, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Gary,
Take a look at your area CL. There are 3 rollers in Cleveland area alone. You can't tell me we older guys are the only ones using good bats but we are primarily using legal ones.
The younger generation is more prone to do this than the older guys from I what I see and read, but it goes on, with both, never the less.
May 1, 2010
curveball
Men's 65
400 posts
Trumpball: has it ever been published what bat/ball combos were used in any of the 6 deaths?
May 1, 2010
tattooball
620 posts
Yes RIH and the SGMA release the info to their members every year. The past 2 years every death has occured using composite bats and poly core balls. I think that is because there are mostly composite bats used in the game today.

Last friday night in a league in Newburg NY a 3 rd baseman took a line drive directly to the eyebrow, after stopping the bleeding he tried to return to the game. The umpire stopped him using the blood rule and sent him to the hospital. After 4 stitches he returned to cheer on his team in their second game. No broken bones, no concussion just a few stitches. They were using the new USSSSA .52/275 softball. I was told he played last night.
May 1, 2010
Capt Kirk
408 posts
What is the elapsed time based on a batted softball traveling at 75 mph for a distance of 50'? Is it reasonable to assume that a batted softball can maintain an average of 75mph for 50'? I did a quick caculation and my estimate is less than 1/2 second (.45 second), correct?
May 1, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Capt Kirk,
Look at the link and page 40 only a few pages down and I think that speed might work with wood bats & were as close to that speed rather than composites... they were in the 90's +++
Also the 0.3??? time to reach the mound was a rough time. The ones in the .4+ were there but none a half second or more. If I remember right.
not knowing the bats used could even get much different results given that was done a few years ago.
But I think your close enough... Too much mathematical data to take in.
May 1, 2010
Capt Kirk
408 posts
Taits, in just a blink of an eye things can change, a game becomes a player and their families worst nightmare. Corky, we need a designer screen from Miken. and SSUSA staff we need a plan to implement.
May 2, 2010
crusher
Men's 70
395 posts
One thing that causes pitchers and 3rd basemen to get hit is their eyesight. As one matures the eyesight recepitors get clouded and sight is not as bright causing a hit ball to not be visible to a pitcher for a very small part of a second. Result is a hit pitcher. NOW this is not the only reason just one.
May 2, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Capt K,
My .02, Most all to true. What is not, are the 'fully though out' planning stages for what has been going on.
The unfortunate thing is everything is done with afterthought\hindsight.
Wait and see, it will change again.
May 2, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Its true we get slower and our eye sight diminishes as we age. But the problem(s) we are seeing now are more bat/ball related then simple age issues.
Scott I agree with you, change is coming and most of us arent going to like it.
May 2, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I've never heard of a better ad
for screens for senior ball
promoting both safety and fun
at the same time.
Remember.
Safety OR fun is NOT and never will be
a viable option though some would have us believe it is.
Safety AND fun is the only way it will work.
May 2, 2010
LP
293 posts
lets put a screen up for the pitcher, third basemen,short stop, second baseman,and the first baseman, so that way maybe no one will get hurt. just a thought since it seems that no one over 50 has any skill left, according to what ive read here. just a thought. oh and i pitch and play short.
and i say bring on a screen and that will bring on the end of competitive softball.
May 2, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Crappy balls and bats
in reality, are the end
you referred to.
We have damn little to enjoy and look forward to these days
and I know it's hard to impossible
to keep economic interests, influence
and pressure
off any entity in 2010 "Broke" America
but a big mistake will be made
if someone takes the fun
out of senior softball.
We'll stop playing and/or create venues
for our own enjoyment.

May 2, 2010
Capt Kirk
408 posts
We now have the blow smoke up your ass artist coming out of the woodwork. We went from pitcher safety to everyone on the playing field wearing a armored suit, just keeping keeping on pitching LP and one of the shaved bat artist will lower your iq a point or two.
May 2, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
capt kirk,the smoke being blown is by someone who says we can't play a competitive game of softball unless we have the hottest bat/ball combo,or for that matter have fun doing it unless we hit the same combo and then says we need a screen to do it.me personally i have fun every time i step on the field and play competitively also,so what is the problem.
my response is no screen,but we do need to look into lowering the ball or bat for senior ball.
May 3, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
I really do not consider a combination of a bat equal to the Orange Crush and the 44/375 as a 'crappy combo'. But it is a more sane combo. The real power hitters will still hit it out, but the cheapies go away. I bet there would still be a lot of hitting and scoring, but it would even the game out a lot. Good balls and a toned down bat. The pendulum needs to swing back to the center.
May 3, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Throw this into the "idea" mix.
Allow the legal bats as one would like to use, and allow good balls or better balls than currently being used.
Throw in the gear requirement or waver signing croc as another choice and allow the one who most all this stuff refers to, the ability to decide whether or not to use a screen. He provides it. (does not need to wear gear or sign waver either)
Other team has no say in matter either, they need to go by that pitchers decision.
May 3, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Softball engineered by those who know better than us about who we are and what we want....
Our betters, who are ignorant as posts
and self interested regarding us
will school us and herd us to the place
God means us to have.
They're not fooling me or anyone
us in senior ball.
When/if we say we've had enough
these loud mouth couple of jerks
will say they were really in favor
of what we wanted and needed
all along.
Senior softball has already spoken.
"Stay the course.
Good bats and balls forever
and anything else is ignorance
and self interest talking."
And if safety really is that important
than lets go to screens which offer maximum protection and return the fun/
joy to playing softball.

May 3, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
SSUSA should perhaps have a "screens" bracket or division or whole tournament
and watch/see the results.
What do you think?
May 3, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
There are barely enough teams for a single bracket, if at all. No way would multiple brackets work.
May 3, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Seems to me there are a couple of loud mouth jerks who have for sometime been trying to HERD us toward more Lively Bats/Balls and now Screens.
If this isnt promoting self interest what is?


We have safety measures in place now that will protect our pitchers. What may need to be implemented is the mandatory use of full helmets with face guard, a vest and shin guards.

"Cooler bats for a more balanced game"






May 3, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
E4/E6,again you hit the nail on the head.it seems we can be ignorant for expressing our views,but the other side isn't for pushing theirs,seems a little hypocritical to me.
i want a more balanced game,but i think we need to go the ball route b/c of the expense to replace bats that we have now.
over on www.softballfans.com the kids are talking about the 52-275 ball and are slowly coming around to it.they say it will still go out by the hr hitter,but there will be no more cheap ones like we have for senior ball.
May 3, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
In less than ten years, here is where the hot composite bats and lively balls have taken our game.

Parks that were serviceable and used for decades, even for 20-year-olds, are no longer viable because so many balls fly out of the 260-275 foot fences. Some cities ban the use of composites in these parks because roads and homes and children’s playgrounds surround them and it is too dangerous.

In the newer parks, with 325 foot fences, four tired outfielders, still having to play near the fences because of the glut of 350 foot hitters, leave so many gaps that a blind batter can hit a single at least.

In the infield, once capable fielders, proud of their skills, are embarrassed when screaming ground balls fly by before they can take a step, and more often than in the past, these fielders are injured by the same high velocity balls.

The pitcher is no longer recognized by his old teammates. He is armored from legs to chest to mask/helmet, and after releasing the pitch has to scurry backwards to have any chance of making a play on a ball coming at him in less than a third of a second.

Out of concern for his well-being, some even suggest erecting a screen so the pitcher can duck behind it as the only sure way to avoid being injured or killed.

Proud batters who once worked hard on their conditioning, timing, and swing to hit the home run, now have to watch as weekend beer bellies hit the ball out as easily as they do.

Batters who were happy with the infrequent double, are now able to occasionally put one out. Fleeting joy as they realize they are older, weaker, and less fit than in their youth, yet suddenly they are “home run hitters”?! Whom are they kidding? It is artificial prowess.

Hitting over .600 in a tournament used to be a source of pride. Now, if a guy doesn’t hit over .750, he feels disappointed and that he let the team down. Who can’t hit that well with current bat/ball combos?

Base running used to be an art—stretching the single to a double, first to third on a single, advancing on the slightest outfield bobble—now it is waiting for the ball to clear the fielder or the fence and trot on home.

Strategy was the mark of a mature player. Hit behind the runner. Sacrifice fly. Slow grounder to third for the fast runner. Now it is irrelevant. Why hit behind the runner when a gap shot is waiting for the batter everywhere? Why try a sacrifice fly when a home run, or a line shot in front of distant fielders will score the runner without an out?

Yes, my friends, the balanced game that we loved and enjoyed over the past thirty or forty years has been taken from us with the advent of the super bats. Look what we have lost. Are you having as much fun now?
May 3, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
couldn't of said it better OMAR.it is bad when i'm taking 2 bases for singles b/c the OF'ers have to play within arms reach of the fence.
the 52-275 ball will be here and guess what,we all will still play the game.
May 3, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
mad dog, you're getting doubles for singles. When I come to the plate with my U2, outfielders back up—for forty years they used to come in with a smile on their face. Me, a Miken long ball hitter—big whoop.

I agree—I'll play the game and enjoy it, even with a sock for a ball...even if fielders come in on me again!
May 3, 2010
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
mad dog,
You going two bases......come on man !!LOL !
May 3, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
yes OMAR i agree with ya,i got some pop even without a senior bat in my hands,so when i play with a senior bat it just gives me that much more so OH'ers back up,so my little mishits/singles go for doubles,LOL.

yeah kenny yeah should of been up at mustang,i ran wild,LOL.
see in a couple of weeks in Georgetown.
May 4, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
If safety really is so key a concept
as some would have us believe
then why don't these voices rally toward
changing the arc, widen the rubber,
1-1 count etc which would protect the pitcher
easily/effortlessly and the ultimate
in pitcher protection, the screen.
These solutions are like kryptonite
to these guys because they've bought
the too hot bat/ball combo hook line and sinker.
Can you say slamboozled?
Why is the only solution to take good bats and balls out of our hands
which is INTEGRAl to the game?
Did someone say ignorance and/or
ulterior motives?
No one wants to hit/play with a crappy ball and bat...we been putting better bats and balls into the game
since we were kids.
Are you getting too old to play, guys in body and spirit?
Lawn bowling is right around the corner.
Screens would give maximum protection
to the pitcher while ensuring the fun
of hitting a good ball with a good bat.
And what's this?
Senior softball has already spoken.
Thanks SSUSA, NCSSA, SPA and Huntsman among others.
Good bats and balls forever.
Game, set and match.
May 4, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joe, perhaps they don't "rally" for those because they are tired of seeing the basic fundamentals of the game even further changed just to accommodate the fragile egos of insecure old guys who apparently believe they can't play the game without the benefit of someone else's technology.
May 4, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Gary.
Softball today is fun for the great majority of us.
We show with our participation
and purchases that we like senior softball a la 2010.
That's just the way it is.
The argument can't be safe or fun
and that's what some of these guys
are willing to bargain.
It won't work.
The game/ball/bat has always been dangerous since little league.
All we'd have to do, Gary,
is change the height of the arc a couple of feet or give the pitcher a little more room to move around
and that game becomes radically safer.
But some of these guys are clueless
and some have other agendas and interests they are pushing by all this hullabaloo and "scare" tactics.
Good balls and bats forever.
And have you ever heard me talk about
what a great idea free defensive subbing
would be?
May 4, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Gary.
We hit 40 core balls last weekend
in Antioch and it sucked.
Going with a ball, any ball that isn't satisfying to hit/drive/rip
will kill the game.
It's that simple.
You recognize this is true or you don't
or won't.
I don't care about who makes/sells whatever to whom.
I been playing this game since I was 8 years old and I've never talked to one player who wanted to play with a dissatisfying bat/ball.
Not one.
May 4, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
I personally don't see the safety issue either. But apparently enough do that we are now getting silly rules changes because of it.

All I am saying is whatever safety concerns, real or imagined, there are stem back to the special bats and the fact that the oldest/slowest/worst eyesight group playing today is the ONLY one that legally uses the special bats. Still just strikes me as really silly.

Adding a little arc, or making it unlimited for that matter, I can live with. Screens and mandatory gear is just atrocious. If I wanted to wear all that stuff I would become a senior hockey goalie.
May 4, 2010
neck10
498 posts
we start our 55 & older leauge monday,Ill see how the screen works out only had one guy that was a pitcher that didnt want to try it.He's about 6'6" & played football for michigan & the worst one in the leauge about going up the middle,the screen will stop all that & the rest of us dont have to protect our pitcher .
May 4, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
neck, how exactly do you "protect" your pitcher? By taking your issue up with the perpetrator, or going after an innocent third-party?
May 4, 2010
stick8
1299 posts
Einstein, you've played slow pitch softball since you were 8 years old? My gosh what year was that? lol just kidding
Seriously, what brand was the 40 core ball you used?
May 4, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
I was going to ask, but am already in "the stuff" according to E.
In many posts there is NEVER any mention of defense, only how hard "WE" enjoy hitting the ball.
Heck, I can go to the cages and hit balls as hard as I like if that all our game has become.
However I prefer to test my ability as an all around balanced player. One who understands the importance to defend as well as hit.
Someone mentioned our game has become 70% offense, it may be higher then that.

May 4, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
E4, What is basic one-man defense? It isn’t just camping under a lofted fly ball for the out. It isn’t fielding a medium speed two-hopper in the infield. It isn’t being able to throw on the fly from third to first. Defense is anticipation, quick reflexes, speed enough to run down fly balls or popups, backhanding a ball, and so on.

With the special bats, much of this is gone. Outfielders are playing in the far pasture, so distant they can’t even make out who is up, and still balls go over their head and over the fence. If it doesn’t clear, there is so much room between them and the next fielder, a lot of balls shoot the gap. And there is always the crisp line drive that lands well in front of them, maybe for a double if the grass is thick.

Infielders also are rooted to the ground, ready to protect against the blistering line drive, but no longer able to move a step or two toward a hard hit ball since it is already past them.

Pitchers...well they just armor up, back up, and send prayers up that they won’t be the next to die.

All this because of the advent of the special bats. The joy and importance of defense is gone. Maybe offense is now more than 80% of the game with the “lively bat/ball” combo. “Cooler bats for a more balanced game.”
May 4, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
E4,OMAR,why do you guys have to be so logical.some people don't care to play defense,and want to just hit(remember the off/def sub rule someone wants).they don't care what hot bat/ball combo as they are not the ones out there chasing them.you guys talk about maybe taking the bats back a bit(usssa type),i'm for the ball going to 52-275 as it won't impact our pocket books(the players)as much as it would be to replace our bats.you also would have the doctored bat prol then,yes even seniors will cheat.

"COOLER BALLS FOR A MORE BALANCED GAME"
May 4, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
I can live with that!
May 4, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
Whatever gets us back to the balanced game.
May 5, 2010
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
mad dog,great post I agree 100%. Common sense says something has to be done,and the most logic thing to do is cooler bats or balls. Most agree that the senior bat helps kept doctored bats out of our game,so the thing to do is tone down the ball. Most if not all good competive Pitcher's do not want a screen and say they would not duck behine it after pitching anyway,so why put it in the middle of infield ?
Einstein says most senior players wants to hit hot balls with the senior bats. Reading all the post on this subject why aren't all these players speaking up? Most of us that play this great game want to play the game as close the way it was played in our prime and a screen would change it way to much. Most of us are happy to hit our line drives and ground ball singles and let the HR hitters hit their HR's and do not have to stroke our ego's by hitting one 100+ feet over the fence. Also a cooler ball will stop a lot of miss-hit balls from going over the fence.
May 5, 2010
Capt Kirk
408 posts
FYI
http://zh-tw.facebook.com/pages/SwingMechanics/100402579180
May 5, 2010
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
http://www.swingmechanics.com/index.html .......They have 2 good video's to improve your hitting also.
May 6, 2010
ill41
Men's 60
11 posts
I feel the best way to protect the pitchers,without messing up the game,is to go back to unlimited arch with the mat.This would give the pitcher time to back-up.And make the home umpires job easier.I believe you would see less pitchers injured.
May 7, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
That is fine, except waaaaay too many pitchers don't back up anyway, just stand there "admiring" their pitch, get hit, and then whine for rules to protect them.

Guys have to help themselves before complaining that others should do it for them.
May 7, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
It’s easy to say that a real pitcher will wisely protect himself (either with armoring up, or pitch selection, or backing up) and we don’t need screens because only amateurs who shouldn’t be there anyway will benefit.

The reality is far different. The tournament season in California is about two months old, and I’m thinking about the 22 teams we have played or I have watched on our fields or adjoining fields. That’s about 44 pitchers (since most teams have at least two regulars—some as many as four).

Of those pitchers, I would say about one third are experienced, practiced pitchers, who see that position as their preferred position. These are men who think about what they are going to pitch and practice hard to be able to do so. Another one third are good pitchers, don’t walk many guys, and either lack the skill or the smarts to be a thinking pitcher. The other third are filling in because they can keep the ball near the plate. Usually they are used because of injury, fatigue, or tournament absence of the first line pitcher(s).

Of these 44 pitchers, here is what I have observed:
1. About half have already been hit by a batted ball that they could not field with their glove. None so far have been hit in the head. The inexperienced pitchers are not necessarily those hit—some of them are infielders when not pitching.

2. Only 5 ever wear a mask of any kind. Don’t think cost is a factor. Some cite the fact that they lose sight of ground balls with a mask.

3. About half wear shin and/or knee guards. The others are not necessarily better fielders, just think the guards are going to be bulky or are a hassle.

4. Only 2 routinely back up on unfamiliar batters. I think this has to do with potential fatigue and the danger of a rubber in front of you that can distort a ground ball like the lip of the field/infield.

5. About half will run to cover first on a ball hit to the right. Some are crippled up, but others just seem to be too inexperienced.

6. About two-thirds will back up plays on throws from the outfield. Same reasons as above.

7. Only about 10-20% seem to be really good fielding pitchers, some with a bit of lateral range.

My point is that a high percentage of pitchers shouldn’t be pitching according to the standards of some who argue against screens, mandatory armor, higher arc, etc. These pitchers are just guys filling in to try and help the team. Why indicate they deserve to be hit or injured because they are not competent to defend themselves and should play elsewhere. Where are the other competent skilled pitchers going to come from to replace them?

It would certainly help to reduce the current hot bat/ball combo to give these pitchers a safer environment and a chance to help the team defensively.
May 7, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
got to agree with ya omar 100%.i feel i'm a good fielder on the mound.i was a SS/2b in my younger days so bring a fielders mentality to the mound.i learned to pitch starting in my early/mid 30's looking to the future playing with the young ones,no real senior ball know of then.well off now as i have to go to sleep tourney tomorrow with those little turds.LOL
May 7, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
mad dog, you often agree with me. You are a wise man LOL. Good luck in your tournament. I too pitched in the younger leagues against those tadpoles until the year I turned 60 and began senior softball.
May 8, 2010
Capt Kirk
408 posts
Batted Ball Velocity (BBV) study:
http://www.thesportjournal.org/article/composite-softball-bat-revolution-why-pitcher-has-little-time-react-batted-ball
May 9, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
well OMAR you say what i like to,but don't have the know how to put it to paper, a lot of the times,oh also don't care who you are,LOL.
at 60 i'm still pitching at the younger(tadpole div) level(we won our tourney yesterday,7 games).a tiny bit sore today.
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