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Discussion: curveball

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May 3, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
curveball
Not sure about you, but where I come from every inning has a "top HALF" and a "bottom HALF". Hence, for the mathematically-challenged among us, the game is equal parts offense and defense.

Heck, before the special bats contributed to changing/ruining the game, each HALF inning had exactly THREE outs. Again, equal parts offense and defense.
May 3, 2010
Jawood
Men's 50
799 posts
curveball
If your team hits .750 to .800, could we use your scorekeeper? We have a pretty good hitting team and we don't hit anywhere close to that!
May 3, 2010
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Must be OBP. That way you get less griping. Some teams give all-tourneys to highest OBP.
May 3, 2010
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Dirty.......You are not guaranteed EXACTLY THREE outs. My team has given up 7 runs in an inning with ZERO, ONE or TWO outs. Not much defense when the other team is hitting well.
May 3, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
It is so hard to be educated and in this hobby. :(

That is EXACTLY why I said "before the special bats contributed to changing/ruining the game". Yes, I am more than aware that now due to silly run limits we don't have to get three outs before we can bat again.

But that is NOT how the game was intended.
May 4, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1993 posts
Getting the third out used to be a reward and you got to come in and hit. Now, probably half the time you don't get the third out at all. We have gone 3 and 4 innings in a row not getting an out or making an out as a team. No balance any more. Too bad.
May 4, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Webbie, that is exactly and completely correct.
May 4, 2010
neck10
505 posts
if you dont have the run rule the team geting there but's kick would quit then if there's no one to play you could sit at home & argue with your wife.
May 4, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
A. The kids who don't play with the run rule don't quit.

B. When we were kids and didn't play with a run rule no one quit.

C. If you don't want you butt kicked, work harder and get better. Again, guys looking for rules to bail out their inabilities. Just very sad.
May 4, 2010
stick8
1320 posts
Seems quite strange that a team could potentially only make three outs in a senior game and still lose.
May 4, 2010
udaplaya
91 posts
The point is, this is not kids softball, it IS senior softball. Allowances have been made to accommodate the fact that we are not the athletes that we once were, even though the competitive fire burns just as strong. Do I agree with all of the allowances, absolutely not, but the attempts made by the various senior softball organizations to put a viable product on the market must resonant with a lot of folks, as the team attendance figures show that senior softball is very well supported.

There are Senior Olympics and Special Olympics that modify their qualifying standards to take into account the abilities of their respective participants - does this make those events any less pure or provide their participants with any less sense of pride when they compete...i dare say no.

I, and many others, choose to participate while we still can, rather than whine about the "way it used to be" or "the way that the kids still do it". Playing with the kids is an option is still available to those that wish to compete under those rules.

Time brings change and progress - the abacus worked, but calculators were better, and today's technology even more so. They all worked, but to suggest we should use the abacus because that is "more real", misses the point.

Major league parks are tiny sandboxes compared to the Polo Grounds et all of old, but attendance is at an all time high. HRs are easier to hit, but parks are being made even smaller, so some one besides chicks must be digging the long ball.

Granted, there are too many divisions, Major and Major+ should be combined, we all don't get to play on the best field each time out, fees are high, bats break even though they are used as designed, my arm hurts, my knee hurts - but at then end of the day, i sure do enjoy the heck out of this senior softball stuff, and cant wait until the next time i get to take the field (in Reno).

Get with the program or step off, and let those of us that choose to enjoy this latest version of senior softball do so.
May 4, 2010
curveball
Men's 65
404 posts
udaplaya, NO UDAMAN!
Great feelings, well expressed.
May 5, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Yea, after all it is impossible to have the best of both worlds and not just a world begged for by insecure old guys.
May 5, 2010
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Dirty.....udaplaya is not begging for anything. He came to SSUSA, saw the rules and decided to play. We all have choices. You have chosen not to play, but continue to tell us what is wrong with the game we choose to play. Why? We do not care what the intent was when softball started. Changes happen in life every day. Make your choice, but don't tell me that my choice is incorrect.
May 5, 2010
stick8
1320 posts
Salio2k, no fault of yours or udaplayer but Dirty does make valid points. He's not trying to dictate to anyone how they should feel. What he's pointing out is some of the rules that have been discussed or implemented take away from the true intent of the game. Hitting thru the pitchers box and/or hitting a pitcher and being called out is ridiculous--thank God they pretty much did away with that one. Putting screens in front of pitchers is absurd. Making pitchers wear protection is idiotic. In Indianapolis this past weekend I was told that at some association meeting back in the winter they considered 12 fielders!! What's next, hitting to the opposite field is an out because outfielders can't run any more? Or will a plether of third basemen and shortstops suddenly complain that they're too old & don't have the arm to throw to first so they make pitchers hand an out? All these type of gimmick rules open up pandoras box.
May 5, 2010
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
IMHO.......At tournaments, the only time that I hear about using a screen in when the sun is directly in the pitchers eyes. I know that most pitchers don't want screens. They don't even want to armor up, deciding to sign the waver instead. Eleven fielders for the older age group are too many for me. Too many old men getting thrown out on what used to be a base hit. Also, we do not use special bats! I own too many to give them up.
May 6, 2010
stick8
1320 posts
Understood salio2k. One rule that I clearly can't figure what the intent of is why runners can slide into 2nd and 3rd but not the second home plate or first base. Anyone know?
May 6, 2010
SSUSA Staff
1306 posts
stick8 - The one word answer is: SAFETY

HOME PLATE RATIONALE - There are two home plates to avoid potential collisions 'at the plate'. The defensive player (usually the Catcher) is limited/restricted to the Strike Mat and the runner is limited/restricted to the Scoring Plate, so all plays at Home are regarded as 'force plays'. If the Runner touches the Home plate/Strike mat, he is out, and if the Defensive player tags the runner after he has crossed the commitment line, the Runner is declared "Safe". Accordingly, there is NO reason ever to slide into Home because:
• There should never be a tag to be avoided (the Softball reason); and
• Sliding is slower (takes longer to get to the plate) than running through (the Physics reason)

FIRST BASE RATIONALE - Essentially the same as above. Keeping runners "on their feet" in the 1st base area makes it easier to avoid collisions due to defenders fielding errant throws up the line, and significantly reduces the chances for the runner being stepped on/spiked or for the defensive player to be toppled by a slide that takes out his legs. The Physics reason above is also valid.

Some may not like this logical commitment to player safety, but these rules are almost certainly here to stay. Hope this helps.
May 6, 2010
stick8
1320 posts
Staff, I do understand your reason for first base--potential collisions. You can get to a base quicker by running than sliding and sliding does enable a runner to potentially get under a tag. But since the second HP is several feet from the real HP collisions would be less likely. Other than tearing up ones leg or knee I feel your rationale for hp, although not wrong, is more of a common sense then it is safety.
May 6, 2010
SSUSA Staff
1306 posts
stick8 - You are correct on the Home Plate issues where we play at facilities that provide the secondary Scoring Plate ... However, most of the places we play do not have that, and we're dealing with a Scoring Line, one that can be crossed by the runner as close to the Home Plate as the runner wishes, so long as they don't touch it ... It's for these facilities we believe the rule has more merit ...
May 6, 2010
green rocket
51 posts
Also, if the fact that the second HP is fixed to the ground via spikes and is even with the surface of the playing field.

As an umpire, I've seen these HP's well above the surface and a potential ankle breaker if hit wrong. I've removed them before for saftey reasons and drawn a scoring line with my foot. Never got an arguement from a ballplayer or team doing so.

I will say that I've done this in smaller tournaments but never in a SSUSA major tournament. They seem to take care of this issue by placeing them correctly.

Many ballplayers also do not realize that hitting the white inside 1B bag while running down the line is an out without appeal in SSUSA.

Of course this rule's exception is if the 1st basemen while attempting to field the throw to him is inadvertantly carried into foul territory and the runner is forced into hitting the inside white base.

All for safety.
May 7, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
rocket, second and third are WELL above ground level and guys slide into them all the time with no injuries whatsoever. You have to know how to slide properly, that is really all it takes.

Staff, why is sliding permitted into second and third? Are collisions at those bases safer than at home? (rhetorical question, clearly they are not)

Sliding into home coming in from in front of the catcher is inherently less risky than sliding into second while the infielder has his back to you looking into the outfield from the throw.

I am certainly not saying all sliding should be abolished, as they would be yet another unfortunate dumbing-down of the game. But to allow sliding into second and third, as it should be, but not home for "safety reasons" is completely illogical. There have always been safety rules concerning home, namely "slide or give up". That usually covered things just fine.

How is sliding into second with the 2B having his back turned to you as he awaits the throw coming in from left more safe than sliding into home while the catcher is directly facing you waiting for the throw from left?
May 7, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1993 posts
Dirty-I'll take this one. There are too many kamikaze players out there that will still crash into a catcher to score that run. With our aging bones and parts that's just a recipe for injury. I've even seen a low level coed game that some idiot crashed into a young mother and put her in the hospital for some months. It is also a proven fact that running through a base or home plate is faster than sliding and there is absolutely no reason to not run through the plate. It is a concession to age--yes--but a prudent one. I do, however, hope they do not abolish sliding into the bases. I have no brakes left with my knees and that is the way to stop. :-)
May 7, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Webbie, but wouldn't those same guys also slide hard (as they should) into second or third if it means being safe and thereby giving you the opportunity to eventually score? So, again, with this thinking why permit sliding anywhere?

Yes, running through is faster than sliding, but you slide to (a) avoid a tag and (b) to prevent overruning the base.

I don't know, I just see an inconsistency in the current rules.
May 7, 2010
stick8
1320 posts
Staff I've encountered a similar situation umping co-ed last year. Runners would charge right at home plate trying to intimidate the catcher and then veer off at the last second. What we did was draw an angled line at the committ line toward a spot far enough from home plate so the runners wouldn't close to the catcher. Runners were automatically out if they were caught in that area inside that angled line. It worked out pretty well. I beleive at the TOC they use this line also. Still sliding at the second home plate offers much less of a risk of a collision then it does at 2nd or 3rd base.
May 7, 2010
stick8
1320 posts
Webbie aren't you your referring to scoring runs at the original home plate? In that situation there is no rule that says you have to slide or give yourself up. The only rule is you can't crash into a catcher, either intentionally or unintentionally. In senior ball unless the throw home is up the line or wide of hp there is virtually little or no chance of crashing into a catcher. There is more of a chance of crashing or a collision by sliding into second or third base. It seems to me if runners aren't allowed to slide at the second hp or the line and 1st base then sliding at 2nd and 3rd baseshould be abolished also.
May 7, 2010
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
i don't know about the rest of the ya's,but most all complexes i have played in have bases(2nd,3rd)that when slid into move and therefore very rarely will you catch your foot and hurt a leg.also any 2b(fore that matter any INF) that puts him/her self in harms way on a play from the OF doesn't know what they are doing and shouldn't be out there.
May 7, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
mad dog, your last statement is 100% correct. And you could make that same statment about catchers, which makes the second home plate kind of silly as well.
May 7, 2010
SSUSA Staff
1306 posts
The rationale for prohibiting sliding into 1st base or the Scoring Plate/Line (both are double-base configurations) is firmly rooted in logic and safety, despite what a purist may profess. Purity of the game just came up secondary to the player safety concession for Senior ball. There are only two bases, in any baseball or softball environment, where 'running through' the base does not expose the batter runner to the potential of being put out: 1st base and Home. SSUSA does not allow 'running through' at any other base, as some senior leagues do. Accordingly, sliding into 2nd or 3rd, OR sliding when retreating back into any base, is permitted as a fundamental component of the game.
May 7, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
So it is "safer" to slide into second and third than into the actual home plate? Safer for whom?

It is more dangerous to slide into the actual home plate than into second or third? For whom?
May 7, 2010
SSUSA Staff
1306 posts
The determination of whether or not it's safer to slide into Home as opposed to either 2nd or 3rd base is completely irrelevant. Tag plays are prohibited at Home, so a slide is never necessary there. A compelling argument can be made that sliding into 1st base is likely the most dangerous base due to the frequency of errant throws to 1st that result in first basemen and runners being put in harm's way. The double first base lessens that probability of injury, and sliding compounds it, hence the prohibition for sliding into 1st. Again, the purist may take exception, but it's really a safety issue that won't change in the foreseeable future, regardless of the theoretical debate.
May 7, 2010
DMac
Men's 60
186 posts
A big reason for allowing sliding at 2nd and 3rd is that, unlike 1st and home plate, the runner is at risk of being tagged out if he overruns the base. That said, as a "rabbit who runs 7-10 times per game, I am very grateful not having to slide at home.
May 7, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
DMac, I understand that, and also understand the second home plate is not going away anytime soon.

But its usage still doesn't make any sense as long as there is still sliding allowed into the single second and third bases. Sliding into a single home plate is NOT more dangerous than at second or third. It just isn't.
May 7, 2010
SSUSA Staff
1306 posts
And we'll take that opinion into consideration if the Scoring plate is ever removed from the SSUSA Official Field Specifications. Until then, there remains NO reason to slide into Home.
May 7, 2010
TOMAR77
Men's 55
202 posts
Dirty, at times you offer some interesting opinions( almost always contrary), but still it is recognized as your right to do so. However you do expose yourself to critisim's and yes agreement. In this case you seem to be intent on STIRRING IT UP! Which in my humble opinion shows you as a Narristis(sp). I played catcher in hardball as well as fast-pitch softball, at that time I weight in at 135lb's at 5'8", I new I would get hammered at times, but loved the position and learned how to FLY! I now play a lot of second & third.I appreciate the safety rules that are in place. I still have a family and mortgage to consider, my EGO has matured and I realize that my skills have dimmished somewhat with age.I am comfortable in my somewhat wrinkled skin, and count my blessings that I can still play this game with men my age, which is in the end the great equalizer. So thank you SSUSA and others for your consideration of my family and myself in thinking of all of our SAFTEY first.
Tommy
May 7, 2010
stick8
1320 posts
Staff, losing a step, being at a much lower risk for a collision and not having to worry about getting under a tag are really are understandable.Bbut to say those are safety concerns for banning sliding into the 2nd hp is misleading.
May 7, 2010
SSUSA Staff
1306 posts
stick8: That too! ... Simple answer remains unchanged: There is absolutely NO reason to slide into the Scoring Plate ... The ONLY remotely possible injury from 'running thru' comes from the occasional inability to stop before plowing into the backstop! ... Sliding can bring turned ankles, strawberry burns, an occasional sprained wrist, a bent finger/thumb and the most obvious: the public embarrassment at being called out for a completely unnecessary slide by an umpirte who knows the rule!!
May 8, 2010
Omar Khayyam
1003 posts
SSUSA, you forgot a few more reasons. I played a few years in my youth with a volatile catcher. Only place we could put him was at home since he was unafraid to catch fast pitch and was too slow for anywhere else. When people would slide into him, if he thought it was unnecessary, the result was a fistfight.

Also, sliding, in my experience (all with younger guys on my team), also resulted in a broken ankle; a concussion (Mr. Headfirst); broken fingers; and in my personal case, a broken tibia and fibula that kept me off the field and in a cast for 8 months!
May 8, 2010
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
OK..........big lesson........remember who's body you're in!
May 8, 2010
DCPete
238 posts
As mentioned before, there's a big difference between sliding into a tag play vs a force play. At 2nd & 3rd it's more often a force, at home plate it's almost always a tag.
Tag plays are where most injuries occur since the fielder has to physically "touch" the runner.
May 9, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1993 posts
I think Dirty is 'stirring it up' a bit with his second and third base sliding thing. I have never gotten hurt sliding into a base and never hurt anyone, either. If you know how to do it, it is the fastest way to get there, and the fastest way to stop. Are we now lobbying for a 'COMPLETELY SAFE GAME'? Next thing you know infielders will throw to the pitcher instead of first. Remember 'Pitcher's hand is out'? That would eliminate collisions at first. Sheesh!
May 9, 2010
stick8
1320 posts
Staff I understand your reasoning that there's no reason to slide into the scoring plate but the reason shouldn't be specified as a safety issue. The way I see it is if someone chooses to slide into the scoring plate they're taking a risk of touching the plate in a bit more time than running thru it. The same could be said for hitting an illegal pitch. They choose to hit that pitch.
May 9, 2010
SSUSA Staff
1306 posts
stick8 - Safety is an issue in the rule, so long as one buys into the theory (probable postulate) that players are less likely, by at least some minimal degree, to be injured while on their feet running through than when they are on the ground making a purely unnecessary slide. Everything else is just simply posturing by people who may not like a rule that's likely going to be in force for the long run.
May 10, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Of course no one should ever slide into the second plate. No reason for that at all.

My point is, what is the reason for the second plate? Safety of the catcher? So we don't care about the safety of the 2B, SS, and 3B? After all, we can slide into their bases.

What is the difference? And what is more "dangerous"? Sliding from the front of the catcher or the back of the 2B?
May 10, 2010
stick8
1320 posts
Staff, it's not that I don't like the rule, it's the original answer to my question being "safety" being the reason why runners can't slide into the scoring plate. I'm perfectly fine playing with the rule and understand your other reasons. Scaping a knee or getting a berry can happen sliding into 2nd and 3rd also. Not trying to be argumentative here but based on your posts should we eliminate sliding at those two bases also and let runners run thru them and veer off?
May 10, 2010
SSUSA Staff
1306 posts
stick8 - Safety at the Scoring Plate IS an issue, and certainly not the ONLY issue, as others have noted (repetitively!). The sliding option (SSUSA Rulebook §8.5 - page 63) for any player advancing TO 2nd or 3rd base OR returning to ANY base, is allowed as a fundamental part of the game. There are inherent dangers in any of those situations, but they are secondary to fundamental softball concepts. Such is not the case at the Scoring Plate. To infer that the underlying rationale of our position at the Scoring Plate is exclusively safety driven misrepresents the reality.
May 10, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
855 posts
Then as I understand this rule its so we dont change the game anymore then is reasonably necessary. And maintaining the game as it was originally intended to be played, but with some regard for safety.
Makes perfect sense to me.

Now, about those "Lively balls"..............
May 10, 2010
stick8
1320 posts
Staff as I said I fully understand the intent of the rule and have no issue with you or playing by it. But for you say it misrepresents reality to infer the underlying rationale of the scoring plate is safety driven, you should note what you posted above in this thread. You were the one who explicitly pointed out that safety was the one word answer to my question of why sliding was banned at the scoring plate.
May 10, 2010
SSUSA Staff
1306 posts
stick8 - The one word answer remains "Safety" ... But this Message Board is proof positive that one word is NEVER enough (and that may be the biggest understatement since Noah said "...Gee, it looks like it might rain...")
May 11, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Sliding at the second plate is completely irrelevant, there is NEVER a reason to do it, though there is also NO safety issue with sliding there or any else.

But why is there the second plate? That is MUCH more the pertinent question. For safety? Again, then why is sliding allowed at second and third?
May 11, 2010
stick8
1320 posts
Staff, saying that it's not necessary to slide into the scoring plate shouldn't result in an automatic out if a runner chooses to do so. If a batter chooses to hit an illegal pitch the ump doesn't negate that.
May 11, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
stick, while it is silly to call sliding into it an out, why in the world would anyone want to do that?
May 11, 2010
SSUSA Staff
1306 posts
stick8 - You (and all other registered SSUSA players) are welcome to come to the SSUSA Annual Convention (in Tucson from November 30-December 4) to 'make your pitch' at the Rules Committee Open Meetings. For more information, click on the News article called HELP SHAPE THE FUTURE OF SENIOR SOFTBALL from the Home Page of this web site. Hope to see you there. In the meantime, best not to slide into Home!
May 11, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
While I certainly understand the purpose of these conventions, to basically tell your paying customers they have to come to Arizona on their own dime to have their voices heard is a weeee bit absurd.

Can't you just simply address on here why sliding into a plate with NO one near it is an out, and why there is a second plate at all? Those should be easy for you to explain.
May 11, 2010
stick8
1320 posts
Dirty that's my whole point. If baserunners choose to slide and lose a half second or so before touching the second plate so be it. Why should that be an out? To answer your question it would be instincts for me. It took me a while to break the habit of sliding into the second home plate on a close play.
May 11, 2010
stick8
1320 posts
Staff, you never know, I just may make an appearance!! Thanks for the offer
May 11, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4396 posts
stick8,
You can still keep in 'shape' or the sliding habit at 2nd and 3rd....

Dirty, perhaps all the dust, choke choke, and don't want the umps to get dirty...lol for a 2nd HP don't want to reline the scoring line either.

Gee wizz bat man my long post was deleted... will put up on the players board sspso tomorrow after court, for the players who wonder what it was....
May 12, 2010
doker
Men's 60
168 posts
HEY guys!!!!!!!! why do we even answer dirty's remarks ??? from what i've heard on this site is he doesn't even play senior ball!!!!!!!!! no play no say!!!...I've played now for 13 years and the rules as they are now are great...they address many safety issues and the run rules even the game out...so that one team doesn't totally dominate a game....when you pay 100's of dollars to fly and play that is all we can ask for ....great competition and ever changing friendships...that we have for the rest of our lives....THATS WHAT MAKES OUR GAME SO GOOD AND SATISFYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...DOKER
May 12, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
doker, you would think at your age you would know better than to believe everything you read and hear.

Do you use a special bat? Do you advocate them? If either is yes, then you really don't care about safety.

This is sports. If you want to even the games out, improve your team or yourself. Don't expect some contrived rules to do it for you. Have some pride, man.

Now, you care to explain what harm is done by someone sliding into the second plate? Or why that plate exists at all?
May 12, 2010
doker
Men's 60
168 posts
AS USUAL ...OPEN MOUTH INSERT FOOT.........
May 12, 2010
stick8
1320 posts
Taits I understand that. Sliding at the second home plate is not posing any harm to the catcher so why should it be an automatic out?
May 12, 2010
SSUSA Staff
1306 posts
Most rules violations are accompanied by a penalty. There are two options here:
• Batter/runner declared out; or
• Take away the run

Somehow, an umpire scolding "Don't do that again" doesn't quite make it.
May 12, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4396 posts
Perhaps their version of a surrogate scoring plate.
That way you can't get knocked up, err out, in a collision or a possible twisted ankle or wrist.
Why not, far too much has changed in the game.
But the rationale is like the 1st base collision avoidance double base.
As has been shown, not all implantations of rules are well thought out decisions, but the vast majority are, and used everywhere overall.
If you go to any event, then you play winder what ever rules they are. Like it or not, or you do not go.
May 13, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
So no one can explain the need for the second home plate?

And "safety" is not an explanation, it is a buzzword being used to cover all of the head-scratching changes to the game while the real culprit is being ignored if not endorsed.
May 13, 2010
GeHall44
Men's 55
92 posts
Dave or SSUSA STAFF - I understand the reasons and concept of the second home plate. I just have one question. Can you look at changing the rule to allow catchers to react to a bad throw and still make a play? As the rule stands today, if the throw pulls the catcher off the plate or mat, he has to go get the ball and run back to touch the bag to record the out. I would like to see an exception to this rule where the catcher could come off the plate to make a catch and tag the runner to record the out. Just like bad throws to first up the line where the 1b is still able to tag the runner. Does this make sense to you?
GH
May 13, 2010
stick8
1320 posts
Dirty at a high skill level I don't feel there is a need for a second home plate. But since safety is the stated concern and it's understood sliding at 2nd and 3rd base poses more of a danger, then why not draw lines to the right of 2nd and 3rd base and let runners veer off and run thru?
May 13, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
stick, I would HATE to see that. It would just be a further dumbing-down of the game.

My gosh, little kids can run to and slide into ALL the actual bases without a problem. Why can't senior guys who presumably have learned how to play the game in their 50+ years?
May 13, 2010
4Four4
Men's 60
83 posts
Stick - Over-running 2&3 isn't working in our 50+ league. While the intent is for safety's sake the result is not. When a runner must go to the base (Sliding or not) - at least both he and the fielder know where he's going to go. Over-running puts them both in jeopardy of collision, and I've seen some hard one's with no malice intended - just indecision or lack of control.
Our fields are turf with no dirt (skin) on the infield anywhere except home plate so sliding also is a problem - not illegal - just bloody. Tags are required without a forceout in effect.
We are trying to get this changed.
DH - #4
RC55
May 13, 2010
Omar Khayyam
1003 posts
4Four4, interesting result. In our 50+ league, we have been overrunning 2 and 3 for years, with a much higher degree of safety. Not only fewer collisions (the runner can anticipate which side of the bag to run by to avoid a collision), but much less wear and tear on our 60 and 70 year old players. Sliding is too risky for older legs, and running fast and then to stop short on the bag on old knees is very hard on knees. Don't know about your area, but around here about half the 65+ wear one or two knee braces because of knee problems and running through extends their playing years.

Only challenge is that it is hard on the umps to judge close plays, so we have first and third base coaches help with the call. I think Northern California Senior Softball Association allowed it until a few years ago. This is not tournament level play, but the run through rule works well.
May 13, 2010
stick8
1320 posts
You pose a good question Dirty. I would suspect the reason for some, not all, is they don't know how to slide properly. As far as the line at 2nd and 3rd that would be a bad thing. Would tagging be allowed? How far out of the baseline could you run? Pandoras box would open even wider if this ever was instituted.
May 14, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Here is a simple solution. Let's just play the game the way it was intended. ONE base/plate at each location. Run, slide, or dive into them (the runner's call how he wants to do it).

Five year old t-ball kids can do it, and seniors can't?????
May 14, 2010
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
Dirty,
This is scary.....I totally agree with you ! When I found out about senior ball about 7-8 years ago and went to play on a Sunday night senior league. I couldn't understand all the rules. Two bases at first, committment line , two home plates and 5 rules, next team is up to bat. I guess I played competive ball for so many years I couldn't get use to these rules, still can't. I play with the kids on a high league on Tuesday and it's all I can do to keep from running behind home plate ! I understand the associations are trying to do this to prevent injuries.....but at our age I see players in almose every tournament getting hurt in some form or way.
Maybe it's just me !
May 14, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4396 posts
Going back to the original post here: .Not sure about you, but where I come from every inning has a "top HALF" and a "bottom HALF".
SB and BB has always referred to visitor(ing) team = top half and home team = bottom half.
Key work there is INNING.
But your team better be able to keep them from scoring with good 'D' and you better be able to score 'O' in order to get at least one more run than they do.
No easy solution as long as all is geared to profit. Too many things are changed (parks, rules, times, equip, etc) all to maximize the bottom line.
There are many out there putting on good tournaments some cheaper and more placement winner awards, but usually a few less games and or with mercy rules. But the brackets fill. It all depends on what a person or team is looking for, a reason to play or complain.
Just have fun doing it.
May 14, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Dont' worry 6, I always knew you would see the light. LOL

No, it isn't you at all. Sooo many rules are because of the bats being used. A "more normal" bat, not wood or Bombats but something more inline with the aging and slowing of our age group, would reduce the offense and eliminate the need for run limits and time limits to make the games more competitive and keep them from being 2 hour games.

May 14, 2010
stick8
1320 posts
Dirty I agree with you 100%.
May 14, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4396 posts
I haven't heard of a game going 2 hours in almost a decade. Umps are paid by the game but raise hell to do those.
I doubt even unlimited championship games last that long anymore. Hour & a half maybe.
As long as the motivator is the bottom line, as it is now, it will only get worse until something serious happens... and it will.
About all we do see is 2 hour in-between games...
May 14, 2010
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
taits,
You were not in Baytown...we had 2 hour games and they suck !!!
May 14, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4396 posts
#6 , your correct, I was not.
Don't you have time limits there?
If so someone screwed up, if not, sounds like he old days...lol
May 14, 2010
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
taits,
It was screwed up...but after all the fuss.we were told "no time limit" on all the tournament games !4 games in an afternoon......almost 2 hours each with very little rest.God I love this game !
May 17, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1993 posts
Taits-we had a league game against the kids-with a one hour time limit- go two hours last year. We got the third out with about a minute left in the bottom of the 5th. We trailed by a couple runs. 27 runs later we took the field and gave up 10 runs to them. The inning took almost an hour-to the chagrin of the umpires, as it was the 6:30 game and they had 2 more games after that.
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