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Discussion: Requesting the Snowbird List

Posted Discussion
July 20, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Requesting the Snowbird List
SSUSA Staff:
I writing to you to formaly Request the complete Snowbird List of players who would be considered legal because of the Dual Residence rule.
I as the Manager and or Sponsor of a registered 50 + team in your assocaiation believe i have a right to that entire list in advance of your upcoming worlds later this year in order to review and either agree with certain players or to investigate further if need be to file a formal protest before the event ever occurs.
Please respond either by this post or by fax to my store at 707 434 9683.
Thanks in advance.
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50 =
July 20, 2005
TaterinGa
Men's 50
178 posts
MK39: e-mail me & I will send you something I am putting together to crush this rule

Tater
Allworld84@aol.com
July 20, 2005
Walk
192 posts
I understand the concern here but has anyone thought of how to fix this if this rule if it is put to death so all can play?

Nothing I say to the associations seems to matter about people like me and I would hate to see real snowbirds get iced. You guys know how things like this goes. Instead of fixing it fairly they will over react and then legal snowbirds and guys like me will be forced to retire or stay that way forever and believe me retirement SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
July 20, 2005
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2691 posts
Maybe I don't understand the snow bird concept. I always thought that the northerners migrated south during the cold months and retruned to the north during the warm months. If I am correct, they would be playng summer and nationals in the NORTH!
July 20, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
TaterinGa
just got in and saw your message. i have sent you an e mail and will wait for your reply.
Thanks
MikeKelly Kelly's Sports 50+
July 20, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Walk
We will have to push hard at the senior summitt in january to get the Exemption status back for guys in your situation. I will go to E T Colvin at ASA and explain it to him first and he should come back and push for it next year. Problem was that they use to get so much bad info from guys like RB Thomas who they pay very little attention to anymore. Same thing with NSA and Ridge Hooks.
Hang in there and it should get right for next year.
Thanks
MikeKelly Kelly's Sports 50+
July 21, 2005
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2691 posts
Walk, I have the solution to your problem. You need to use an address in Texas and tell the associations that you lived there 3 months earlier this year. You don't even need to presently live there. There is also no need to have a Texas driver's license, just use you existing license. Next, get the coach of Randy Smith to add you to their roster.
Its all as easy as this!
The only catch to this is the coach might be honest.
July 21, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
RB Thomas reponse to my request for a Snowbird list clears up 1 assocation and only leaves the SPA and SSUSA with a dual resindency rule and as of yet , neither has responded to my request.
Thanks RB Thomas for the quick and very proffessional repsonse.

The ISSA has not had a request or approved any player to play outside of their region as determined by their principal residence. I assure you that any such request would be thoroughly investigated to confirm the facts surrounding any dual residency. As you may be aware there are several Major Plus teams abusing the roster requirements and it is causing a "major plus" concern among the players and teams that are playing by the rules. Unfortunately, some associations do not understand the gravity of these violations and are granting players "snowbird" status with evidence that does not support that the person has actually resided in a second location for any period of time that would be considered "residency." A snowbird would be a retired person who has a history of spending a major part of the year in two different locations, not a super senior softball player who wishes to pick the team of his choice.

With regard to CA and FL, the ISSA has removed the "stand alone" requirement for those states and teams from those states will be treated the same as all others.

Please advise if you have any other questions regarding the ISSA. I am supportive of anyone's effort to clean up this blight on senior softball.

RB Thomas, Jr.
ISSA Executive Director
July 21, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Ga. Crush.
Please do not get the impression that i am on anybodys side regarding anything that may or may not have happened in Plano Tx.
I am 100% against the snowbird rule and only wish to see it be address in the right manner.
I am looking forward to seeing and playing you guys in Hutchinson and Congrats on your SPA World Championship.
You are again the best team in Senior Softball and it will be a pleasure to compete against you this year.
Great talking to you this morning Patty Mac.
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
July 21, 2005
TaterinGa
Men's 50
178 posts
Thanks to Mr. RB Thomas for jumping on the snowbird topic. I had no clue such a rule existed; I had never read it in any rule book. The players are the ones that can make a difference. We need to approach all association heads with respect & business like; no slander or bashing. If we have a question or petition, put a letter together & get every player to forward it to the Directors. Thanks for all the input on the snowbird rule. I still stand in oppostion to anyone who can live in an area 3 months & play in that state or bordering states; this is not fair to the rest of us. As Bruce stated: where is the snow in the summer; we all have teams that we can pick up with or the director could allow us to pick up with the NEAREST team to our state.
July 21, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
TaterinGa
I have asked all 3 association heads the same way and only RB Thomas so far has come forth to answer this issue.
It is obvious that he is totally against it and has given his reasons why.
I respect for RB for the way he handled this and by mentioning that the ISSA has done away with the Ca. and Fl. stand alone rule. We have an open dialogue now talking about getting him a better softball for his upcoming tournaments and i am looking to help him out on it with some of my industry connections.
I am not looking to try and intimidate, threaten or bad talk anyone here but in order to protect my team, i will do whats nessasary to aquire this so called list of snowbirds. I have asked once on this board and once by e-mail to Ridge and to Hennesey and after allowing a certain amount of time, if i dont hear back then i will ask in a formal letter as well.
Really not asking for anything here that i would not have a right to and there should not be any reason for them to not produce this list if it is legit???
IMO
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50 +
July 22, 2005
Hitman29
7 posts
I understand that this snowbird issue revolves around the Georgia(Florida) Crush's use of an illegal player from South Florida. That sounds like something John Mack would do. He got his budget cut by Ralph's wife, now he will do anything to win. That sounds about like something he would doand has done before. Example Gary Deaton playing in when he was 47 years old. What is wrong with Senior Softball is people like John Mack. Just ask what some of his former players think about him. Not very much. He moves the team to Georgia so that he could get around other rules, then he breaks additional rules on top of that. He should be the one supended. I guess money will make you do a lot of illegal things. I wonder if Ralph knows what is going on. I am sure he would not be pleased.
July 22, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Hitman29
Please start your own thread if your going to talk bad about another team. I notice that this was your 1st ever post as well???
I started this thread to ask for the snowbird list only to see if my competition has any snowbirds and if they do then i reserve the right to investigate them to see if it is legit.
Right now the senior softball dual residency rule is just a form and when it is sent in it is approved. No one is checking anything and it is working on the trust system???
My thread here never mention any team and if you have a personal problem with Johnny Mac then be a man and talk right to him. I talked to him myself yesterday and can vouch for the fact that he followed the senior softball criteria for his 1 snowbird. He is a good man and straight up as far as i am concrened. Give him a call and try to work out your differences.
IMO
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
July 22, 2005
Hitman29
7 posts
In a previous thread, you mentioned the Georgia Crush. Anyway, I was in Plano and saw the protest. I guess since your team was not there, you didnt get hurt by the ruling. But, I am sure Old South Miken and Las Vegas Stars are not real happy about getting knocked out a World Championship. I bet if you had spent about 10,000 dollars to go to Plano, you would be raising Cain too. I will leave your thread and let the other Senior Players comment. Oh, by the way I plan to talk to John Mack in person at NSA nationals.
July 22, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Hitman29
Sorry if i was being hard on you there. I just don't want it to look like i am judging anyone here. That is not my job and i did not want to look like i was singling out any 1 team or 1 person.
I am really concerned about this snowbird thing to the point where i now have to go the assocaitions and have them look deep at the program to see what i see, that it is seriously flawed and needs to be revieved or replaced by a much simpler method of simply allowing every team in the nation 1 to 2 exemption players per team.
This would take care of the Bruce Walkers of the senior softball world and the guys who have the tough decision of whom to play
with.
I have talked with the Vegas guys who only had praise for the Ga. Crush ad the team they have. Problem is not with them but with the Snowbird rule itself.
I am in a position if i choose to where i can hand pick 12 guys from across the nation, fly them into my store to work and live for 3 months of the year and put togehter the best major plus team ever assembled because of the snowbird rule. Now if i really wanted to do that, i would not be warning any one in advance.
I believe the way we are now heading with all states being open with bordering states and 1 or 2 exemption players would keep every one happy and keep the competitive playing field level.
IMO
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
July 22, 2005
Hitman29
7 posts
I know with your business connections, you could put together one heck of a team. I hope this can be ironed out to make it fair for all teams. I know no one wants a super team, where you would have no one to play. Senior softball needs to grow through fair competition and sportsmanship.
July 22, 2005
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2691 posts
I too don't mean to single our Johnny Mac. There are loopholes in this rule that need to be closed. Next year will be a little different with the associations abandoning the California and Florida rule.
I still think that it helps the sponsored teams and hurts teams like mine. We will just have to play a bit better. Maybe we can start next weekend in Cullman.
July 22, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Hitman29
I am with you on everything you just said in your last post.
Same rules for all. All rules printed and posted so there can be no doubt that everyone is legit.
Thanks and Good luck in NSA next weekend.
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
July 22, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
BruceinGa
The Vegas guys and the Crush guys see your team as possibly the highest scoring team in our 50 + division.
You give too much credit and have in other post to sponsered teams.
Your team can beat any of us on any given weekend and i take your team very seriously as do the rest of the 50 major plus teams. There is no advantage to be gained that your team wont have the same chance to take advantage of if all things are equal next year. You can go into Fl. next year if you want to, up to you guys.
Anyway Good luck in the NSA next weekend. We will be going to almost all of them next year when the borders are open and wish i could be there next weekend.
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
July 23, 2005
TaterinGa
Men's 50
178 posts
Gary: I started the JAH Masters in 03' & 04; then it became the Miken/Old South. Since I am no longer the coach I will not give the details, that will be left up to Bruce & Don, but I will conclude, we are not fully sponsored.
In any snowbird rule; each manager should have access to names & addresses of snowbirds so that they can do some research; this is called checks & balances. If you have no address how can you check on someone.
July 23, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Gary19
I wont speak for any other teams here but Kelly's is fully sponsored which means an outside source for entry fees, hotels, etc = me and a bat company as well which for us is Miken.
That being said i still only have 2 guys that have ever played open major , a few A level guys and the rest a bunch of real good C level players who play well togehter has a team some of the time.
I predict that this year will produce many different winners in the Major plus worlds.
IMO
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
July 24, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Gary19
I am the money source and miken is the bat surce.
Good question on what do i get back on it and i am asking myself the same question.
Oh it is an advertising and marketing campaign for the store.
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
July 24, 2005
KillAbrew
Men's 60
55 posts
Gary, do not let this MK guy kid you. he has more money than Bill Gates. He sponsors the team because he can. Also because Steinbrenner would not sell him the Yankees.
July 27, 2005
audieh
Men's 60
242 posts
Just received a call from Gary Deaton who had heard that it was said he played for the Florida Crush when he was 47. He wants everyone to know that the accusation is not true. He was at least 50 when he played. He asked that Hitman29 call him at 513-515-9900 and he would enlighten you!? I know that Gary is now eligible to play 55 ball.
July 28, 2005
Hitman29
7 posts
Concerning Mr. Deaton. Mr. Deaton played in a SPA tournment at Marietta, GA. in 1998. He won the homerun trophy and was MVP. If he can play 55's now, I assume he has just turned 55. Lets see 2005 minus 1998. That is 8 years. That would make him 47 or 48 in 1998. At one time people could turn their self in if they played under age. I do not have to call him to listen to his explanation. He had better have his documentation up to date and explain it to SPA, NSA, and the other organizations, when he plays. I am sure teams would hate to lose a national tournment on a protest.
July 28, 2005
gadog55
6 posts
As to Gary Deaton, I played with him on the Crush in 2000. That is the first year I remember him playing 50+. If he actually played in a 50+ SPA in 1998 it would be on record. I will call him and ask. As for John Mac, he has always been loyal to his players even when they were not loyal to him. Gary Deaton never played for John Mac except in 2001 the first year Mac was ever the manager. By the way, the Hitman should see Mr. Deaton this weekend at the NSA to clear things up. Deaton is not a happy camper.
July 28, 2005
Hitman29
7 posts
Well I guess I will see Mr. Deaton in Cullman. Hope he has his documentation in order. I know the tournment director and can get that documentation.
July 28, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Hitman29
Please email me at
sales@kellysultimatesports.com
something i want to ask you in private.
thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
July 28, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Gary19
It is not only happening with bats, it is also happening with Borders and snowbirds in senior softball. It is a mess and a disgrace but all the tournament directors want in the long run are teams that will pay the high cost to enter there events. They make backroom aggreements with some and not with others so the whole game has not become corupt in a sense.
I just got some Wilson Staff golf clubs and will soon play an individual sports which does not involved anyone else. Me agaisnt the golf course after this year.
Thanks
Mike Kelly Golf Duffer 50+
July 28, 2005
Walk
192 posts
MK39 I wonder if they would have made the same agreement for me?

I understand the concern and the want to change things but please take into consideration that fact some of use have no place to play and have been forced to retire because of the regional rules. Now if the snowbird rule is changed (because they will go over board just like they did when RB complained last year about legal players) legit snowbird players could be forced to retire.

When making a suggestion about a rule we should take it upon ourselves to have something that works to replace the rule. If not then the power to be's will always over react.
Walk
July 28, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Walk
i have fought my battles with these guys about first the bordering states issues and i am proud to say made them see the light on that one.
This is another injustice that the some of the same guys caused again =hennesey and Ridge hooks.
Souloution is simple, go by at least the current USSSA rules = states and bordering states and 1 expemtion from anywhere and that work work just fine.
There is my suggestion and now it is up to them to implement it or keep hiding in the background like they normally do until the senior summitt.
Don't blame the messenger here as i did not make these stupid rules to begin with.
thnaks
Mike Kelly Golfer 50+
July 28, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Gary19
Thanks for the kind words but at least for now i know i want nothing to do with senior softball tournament directors like ssusa, spa and lvssa until they grow up and run there business in a manner that shows that they care about us = there customers.
Thanks
Mike Kellys heading for the 19th hole
July 28, 2005
Walk
192 posts
MK not blaming you at all. Just stating that when it comes to changing rules the ones who hide always can be counted on going over board to teach us lessons.

I have come to the conclusion I will be playing AAA from this point on when I get to play. It has become obvious that using the USSSA rule is too simple and fair but then again USSSA thought of it. There is the problem. God forbid anyone would use something that works.

You are right that is the fix but I would almost bet my house you will never see it in any other associations. All I am saying is I understand what you guys are saying but beware the fix will be beyond what anyone is asking for.
Walk
July 28, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Walk
I only intend to play form this moment on the following organazations events anyway.
2005
USSSA
SSWC
2006
USSSA
SSWC
NSA
ASA
Huntsman games
I have no interest in this rest of these back room running want to be softball assocaitions from this point on.
My team does not need the Ultra 2 for 1 thing. We are competitive with any of the legal bats. We wont be lured into SSUSA with all the illegal snowbirds running around like they were last year in las vegas.
I just named 5 quality real softball worlds that we can play in and thats plenty anyway.
You need to get the mavericks to consider those events next year as they should be able to pick you up for any and all of them as they will not only open the borders but they will give the 1 exempt player as well.
Take care Walk my man
Mike Kelly right off of the 19th hole
hahahaha
July 28, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Walk
My Bad i meant the SSWS World Series in Des Moines No more SSUSA or its other name SSWC.
Too much Lemonade at the 19th hole for me.
hahaha
Mike Kelly
July 28, 2005
Walk
192 posts
MK,
I would agree with your assessment. Sent you an e-mail.
Walk
July 29, 2005
gadog55
6 posts
To Hitman: Deaton is in Boaz, not Cullman. IF you want to talk to him, go to Boaz. I don't think you really want to do that do you? I don't know what ax you have to grind with him but you need to cool it and hope he doesn't identify you. Gary can be a loose cannon. Call Ridge Hooks for the records from 1998 to verify Deaton played in the SPA. Prove he played in that tournament and then go on line to tell the world. Deaton never played for John Mac until 2001. That is a fact!!!
July 29, 2005
PattyMac
96 posts
Hey GaDog how about emailing me at my office. You have it. President of the C Club. I think you are right this person doesn't want to meet Gary in person on this issue. PattyMac
July 29, 2005
gadog55
6 posts
Gary 19: You are right, no one ever said Deaton played for Crush in '98. Read the scripts! It was said he played for John Mac in '98. Deaton is a loose cannon but is also a friend. If he screwed up and broke the rules, he will eventually pay the price. I agree that it is a shame that any middle aged guy would fudge his age or alter his bat just to play a game. As far as Deaton, he knows who I am and can identify me. I have called him a lot worse than a loose cannon. Thats what friends can do. Maybe you and hitman can both confront him in Boaz. Hope you guys have good health insurance! Better yet---stay in Cullman.
PattyMac-----I can't find your email bro----I am glad to know the C-Club is alive and well. I will call you as I have your phone #'s. I'll tell toker bro Mick you said hi. He is recovering from surgery. Soon as I am able I will be playing ball with you again.
July 29, 2005
gadog55
6 posts
Gary19: I agree with you. I didn't clarify as you did not accuse J.Mac of cheating. Like I said, Deaton got wind of the chat board and went wild. He called everyone he knew about it. Like I said, if he really did play in 98 he would have to be illegal. Gary is just being defensive. I don't believe he has threatened anyone, but if I were the hitman, I would not confront him about this. If Gary is guilty as charged, he has no leg to stand on and should just let the comments go. I have told him that. I told him to let it go anyway as it really sounds like Hitman has it in for J.Mac and was just using Gary for some reason. People should not make statements like the Hitman did on the internet about people cheating or using illegal players like Deaton. He did say that Deaton played for him in 98. That is totally untrue as Deaton only played for J.Mac in 2001 and was cut from Crush in 2002. As for the snowbird rule, leave it to the commissioners to work things out if they can. Enough said on this topic. Didn't mean to offend you but I never responded to you, only the hitman. Hope he can work things out with Deaton.
July 31, 2005
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2691 posts
gadog55, Deaton was in Cullman and as far as I know, Hitman never approached him.
July 31, 2005
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2691 posts
As for the snowbird rule, I don't see a need for one. You play for a team in the state (or adjoining state) where you vote, file your federal income taxes AND have you driver's license. Sorry MK, I also don't think teams need an exemption.
I do think if you live in an area where there isn't a Major or Major Plus team you should be able to pick from the next two closest Major or Major Plus teams.
July 31, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
BruceinGa
No problem, your entitled to your opinion regarding an exemption player.
All i fought for was the same rights as all other states to begin with open borders.
The 1 exemption player per team would help guys like bruce walker and a few other cases have a place to play.
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Aug. 3, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Terry Hennesey
Has contacted me via email with a refusal to show me any snowbirds at all. He said i am to give him a name and he would then check into it for it's validity.
I have not seen 1 major plus team this year or 1 major teams roster yet so how can i produce a name??? Even when i do see them, how do i know a guy is really from out of region. Normally another player points things like this out at the event or afterwards.
At this rate it will happen just like it did in plano which is at the event and the TD will rule that the protested player is a legit snowbird anyway.
I still feel that all managers have the right to the snowbird list of players who play in there division. We do not need all snowbirds, just those teams who we compete against to check in advance if they are legit or not.
IMO
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Aug. 3, 2005
TaterinGa
Men's 50
178 posts
MK; that is correct. At the ISA last year in Altamonte Springs, I (coach) ask to see the roster of another team to protest their player & the TD REFUSED. How could I protest w/o seeing an address? We still won anyway.
Aug. 3, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
TaterinGa
Great point. How can we even preceed if we can't see the rosters or addresses????
This rule is flawed and has been taken advantage of by certain teams yet the TD'S = Hennesey and Ridge won't do anything about it in advance like digging deeper into the claims of the snowbirds at least in my division.
Wait a minute, i got an idea and here goes.
Terry Hennesey, i hearby preotest all 50 major plus snowbirds and expect you to launch an investigation into all of them and have the results back to me by the time i get back from the USSSA Worlds next week.
Respectfully Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Aug. 3, 2005
TaterinGa
Men's 50
178 posts
It is amazing: I have been playing since 99 & I can show you players that have played from Florida to the most extreme Northern States; do they live in an RV?? How does this get by the Directors??
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