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Discussion: Where in the SSUSA Rule Book is this one??

Posted Discussion
June 3, 2010
HB
19 posts
Where in the SSUSA Rule Book is this one??
In Reno had an umpire change his call from out to safe on a play at home plate on the 3rd out
The play was finished and teams were already leaving the field.
When manager asked why he thought he could change his call and asked for help from first base ump, HP ump refused that request and instead threw him out of the game for protesting the reversal.
Show me the SSUSA Rule that gives this umpire this kind of authority. (especially with no instant replay!)
June 3, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Umps have always had the authority to change a call if they believe they need to to get it right.

And they have always had the authority to eject someone for arguing.

And no ump ever has to get help from his partner if he chooses not to.

I don't see why the rule book is needed for this one.
June 3, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
First of all the book is here on line USE IT.
Second read both rule 16.3 page 89 and 1.53 page 12.
Maybe one or both will help you.
Some stuff rules are not easy to locate you have to really read it.
There seems to be something lacking here for the guy to be ejected.... But I have seen it done twice...
June 3, 2010
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Did it cost anyone a perfect game? :>)
June 3, 2010
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
lemons,
I was watching that game..I felt sooooooo bad for that kid. Now today.I kinda feel sorry for the ump !He feels relly bad.
June 3, 2010
HB
19 posts
Dirty,
Good points, but just as you don't think you need a rule book for this, how about just using common "softball" sense, and change it "before" the defensive team is leaving the field!
June 3, 2010
HB
19 posts
BTW Taits,
Just looked at "your" interpretation of my complaint and the SSUSA rule it pertains to.
Hello??!!
My suggestion to you: Read it (complaint) before you reply to it.

16.3 COMPLAINT PROCEDURE (SSWC TOURNAMENT
ONLY)
Complaints may be verbally expressed to the Tournament Director
or to SSWC Board Members. However, all complaints to
be considered by the Tournament Protest Committee shall be in
writing with careful attention to all pertinent facts and details.
The Tournament Protest Committee may request independent
reports from others involved in the complaint in the interest of a
complete and fair review of matters at issue. NOTE: A complaint
is not to be confused with a Protest.
June 4, 2010
softballer
Men's 55
560 posts
I think i would like to know what was said to the ump? and how was it said! did he say just what you said or was it more!
June 4, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
HB, understood. I have no idea if the call was ultimately correct, or if the guy truly deserved to be ejected. All I was saying is that these are both at the discretion of the ump.

Someone told me many years ago that common sense is not always common.
June 4, 2010
HB
19 posts
Softballer,
What was said to the ump was only asking for an explanation. Ump definitely replied with an attitude.
As always, there will be an ump that forgets that we "pay to play, not get paid to play"!

Dirty, good point! Reminds me of a Reno airport screener's reply when I commented to a security issue with my wife about using common sense:
"Sir, we don't use common sense anymore"!
How do you reply to that!
June 6, 2010
stick8
1298 posts
HB I'm curious what the reason(s) was the ump changed his call. From what you put down the ump didn't ask for help. Did the other team coax him into it? Did he have a change of heart? Describe the scenario if your able to. Thanks
June 6, 2010
stick8
1298 posts
#6 and lemons I was at that game and couldn't beleive it. I thought at first perhaps Galarraga may have juggled the ball but the replay shown on the scoreboard negated that. I presume Leyland asked for help but if he didn't he damn well should have. Of course Joyce doesn't have to honor any such request but if he did I'd lay odds the crew chief would have had him reverse the call. They would have made up something.
June 6, 2010
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
#6 & stick8, I know many say it would open a can of worms, but I think Bud Selig whould follow Tony Larussa's advice and scratch the call so as to give the kid what he earned. Thanks, Mel
June 6, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Baseball needs to be big enough
to admit it can make a mistake
and it's Bud Selig's job
to allow both the ump and the kid
to relax and have peace of mind
for all the right reasons.
People make laws.
Laws don't make people.
June 6, 2010
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
(smiling)...and while we're at it, Pete Rose belongs in The Hall of Fame.
June 6, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
stick that's the prol,it was a judgment call that the runner had beaten him to the bag,umps don't over rule judgment calls and if they do they are frown upon by the other umps.now missed tags and such yes,but not judgment calls.i think selig has got it right,ump made the call and they have to live with it.
June 7, 2010
stick8
1298 posts
Lemons & Einstein I don't believe that should happen. The parties involved have admitted their mistake and it's no secret to anyone who has an interest in this that it was the wrong call. I fully understand the emotion behind changing the call, heck I've been in that situation many times as a player. If the commissioner changes the call then every judgment call by umpires becomes subject to scrutiny. That's not the way baseball or softball is because the human element is taken away. Major league umpires work very hard at their craft and they are the best at what they do. They go thru a lot of intense training and one does not get to be a major league umpire by accident. Just a like the players, they work their way thru the minors and have to prove themselves--every day to get a shot at the majors. They even have to prove themselves if they're in the bigs to stay because their are minor league umps looking to take their spot. I'm certainly not defending this umpires blown call but one way to look at it is if lets say Cleveland had 5 hits or had scored a run or two prior, then this wouldn't be much of a story.
June 7, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
How about this scenario. Lincecum is pitching a perfect game against the Dodgers, but the score is close, only 1 to 0. Two outs in the 9th, bunt to the pitcher, first baseman starts to come in, then retreats, throw to first...OUT! Another perfect game! Giants are delirious and swarm the infield. Announcers keep saying how unbelievable it is.

Then replay shows that the runner was SAFE! First baseman was late in touching bag. To his credit later, first baseman admits he wasn't sure he got there in time. Then, amazingly, ump also acknowledges to media that he blew the call. He so wanted a perfect game, he gave it to the pitcher.

Now what? Both sides admit error. Replay is conclusive. Batter has always argued that he was safe. Dodgers can pass Giants if they win this game. Pressure is on Selig to do "the right thing". If he reverses the call, does the game continue from that point? When? Same players? A Lincecum tired after 9 innings? Next batter also tired? I agree with stickólet the Galarraga call stand.
June 7, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
yep omar,umps make a judgment,we have to live with it,there is no overrule of it,by anyone, after the fact.
June 7, 2010
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Omar and mad dog, Respectfully, I disagree. This was a unique situation, not a philosphical discussion and I believe it calls for a unique decision by the commissioner. Hope your seasons are successful. Mel
June 7, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
lemons there is no way to over rule the call.it would be disastrous to baseball for the comiss to over rule it.if they had an instant relay system in place yes they could of got it right,but since they don't for calls what is said is done.its the reason football went to a replay system,basketball has it for 3 pt shots that are close.MLB only has it for hr's.
June 7, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Mel, right on.
Selig needs to rectify an impossibly
unique situation in order to bring peace to all of us that are involved,
fans and players, alike.
Anything less is self serving
and sends an inflexible, heartless
and disconnected message about baseball
and it's leadership.
June 7, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
And yes, of course,
Pete Rose belongs in the
Hall of Fame as a player.
No doubt about it.
June 8, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
one there is nothing unique about this situation,umps blow calls all the time.selig can't be over ruling all of them.
rose doesn't get that privileged for being a cheat and a liar.
June 8, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
What about if he was a bat shaver
and fixer, Bobby.
Than what would he deserve?
We disagree on just about everything
important, Robert, and that's what
everyone will see.
June 8, 2010
stick8
1298 posts
I'll answer your question Einstein. If it was proven beyond the shadow of a doubt he was a bat shave or fixer: lifetime ban.
June 8, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
What do you say, Bobby?
Lifetime ban for bat cheaters/fixers?
June 8, 2010
stick8
1298 posts
Lemons, suppose it's the 9th inning, the score was 4-3 Detroit and Cleveland had runners on 2nd and 3rd with two outs. The same exact play happens which enabled the runner from third to scores tying the game up. Then the next batter gets a hit giving Cleveland the lead. Then Detroit comes up in the bottom of the 9th and doesn't score giving Cleveland a 5-4 victory. Wouldn't this qualify as a unique situation which would prompt the commissioner to make a unique ruling?
June 8, 2010
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Stick8, The situation you described has probably occurred hundreds of times over the years. What makes a near perfect game unique is that there have only been 20. Mad dog, Pete Rose gambled and has confessed to betting on his team to win (I would feel diferently if he bet against his team.) I believe that his on the field performance merits his induction.
June 8, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
well as usual joey boy you don't read my posts,i have always advocated that cheaters be punished,if its lifetime so be it,i could careless how long they get as long as it does punish them and not a slap on the wrist.and by what i mean for cheaters is- ones who shave,endload(even if they get specials from the mfg not avail to the public),painted bats,guys producing false ID's.

lemons yes but he did lie at first,and who's to say who he actually bet on.yes some said he did bet on his team to win,but he still bet.i think if he hadn't lied about it at first than maybe MLB might have a little more lenient on him.his on field play does get him a shot at the HOF,but his betting and lieing about it blew it for him.
personally i think the betting rule is messed up if your not betting on your team or for,but hey that's the rule.

as far as selig overturning a play that the next pitch has been thrown,nope,what about the KC-STL world series blown call.some say that change the series.+
June 9, 2010
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
mad dog, I'm much more understanding when it comes to betting than I am about using any drugs (whether they be performance enhancing, or recreational) and I think MLB should be as well. I still cringe when I think of Lawrence Taylor being enshrined in The NFL HOF. He was a magnificent linebacker but never committed to rehabbing his drug problem. Halls of Fame should include people that we wouldn't be ashamed to have our children emulate. Thanks for your perceptions and have a great year. Mel
June 9, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
i agree with the drug situation,there will be a big uproar if Mark McGuire is ever elected to the HOF or barry bonds,sammy sosa.
remember paul horung(sp)back for the packers,he did get in after betting,i guess rose could be let in,but they hold the lieing against him at this moment.

back at ya mel.
June 9, 2010
stick8
1298 posts
Lemons I understand perfect games aren't an everyday occurrence. I also understand the emotion behind this issue. And I also understand that many times missed calls can change the outcome of a game. But you didn't answer my question. In the scenario I described above do you think this would qualify for an overrule by the commissioner? Yes or No
June 9, 2010
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Stick8, As I said, that type of situation has probably already happened hundreds of times. In a word, No.
June 9, 2010
stick8
1298 posts
Thank you for your answer. If you feel the umpires judgment merits an overrule in Galaraggas game last week why wouldn't you feel the same way in my scenario? After all isn't umpires judgment umpires judgment?
June 9, 2010
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Many judgement calls have influenced game outcomes over the years. A few have probably influenced baseball history as well. I believe that in this unique circumstance affecting baseball history, the correction that would not affect the outcome of the game, only the historic significance, ought to be made. I appreciate your discussion points, but don't really want to argue what are opinions. Thanks for the mental stimulation and have a terrific year. Mel
June 9, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
did anyone see PTI on ESPN today.someone has a corked bat that rose supposedly used for auction/sale.
June 9, 2010
Eddie12
14 posts
If you only look at Pete Rose the baseball player he is a shoe in for the hall. Butt what everyone seems to forget is, Pete and his lawyer proposed his lifetime ban in exchange that MLB never divulge the evidence that they have on him. Things that make you go hmmmm. Does anyone really think he only bet on his team to win!
June 9, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
prolly could eddie,but like you say there is more we don't know about,i was all for him being forgiven till all the mess came out.
June 10, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1981 posts
You absolutely cannot set the precedent of overruling the umpires call on the field on a play like Galaragas. You just open too big a can of worms. Where do you draw the line on what call is important enough to overturn? A call that costs a team a game? A call that costs a team in a pennant race a game? If that is the determination, what if a call is not reversed in June because a team is 18 games out of first, but they have a hot streak and is one game from the playoffs in September. Do you go back 2 months and change the call? There are too many variables and I firmly believe you cannot change a call like that. I also do not believe in the instant replay except on home runs. The games are long enough without stopping 10 times to review a play. Let the umps do their jobs.
June 10, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Men make rules, guys
and for/to some of us
they return the favor.
You always need a human perspective
to see the truth of anything.
Facts and stats and laws
are for general perspective
and overview.
The truth is and only can be ascertained
in the heart and soul
of another human being.
June 10, 2010
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Lots of discussion about an umpire's call changing the outcome of a game. This call did not. However it did affect baseball history one way or another.
June 10, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Joe you are right on with one exception.
The truth is now in the eye of the camera, if left unedited.
June 10, 2010
HB
19 posts
Hi Guys, remember me??!! LOL!

Stick, to answer your question:
You're right on about the coaxing from the other team to change the call.
Has nothing to do with rules, judgement call, etc., it has EVERYTHING to do with an ump simply being intimidated by the other team to change the call.
Sad, but VERY true!
June 10, 2010
stick8
1298 posts
Lemons, if the correction you propose wouldn't affect the outcome of the "perfect" game then why would you not be in favor of an overrule in the situation I described which clearly affected the outcome of the game? Wouldn't managers be more upset at the scenario I descibed (losing a game) then one of their pitchers losing a perfect game but still earning a W?
June 10, 2010
stick8
1298 posts
HB, this happens to many new umpires and it happened to me many years ago when I started out. I was fortunate in that I had a very good mentor who told me that every umpire/official in any sport will miss calls. Giving in or being intimidated by teams to change the call or do a "make up call" later is WRONG!! Two wrongs don't make a right.
June 10, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey John,
The truth it what the facts mean
to the humans involved.
It's the meaning that gives the facts
character and direction.
The ump will feel relieved he's not remembered for a mistake that cost
a player a chance to be in the Hall of Fame.
The player will get his due.
And the people will sleep better
knowing that justice has been served.
Remember, John,
flexibility and not rigidity
is real strength, across the board.
June 11, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
"In the hearts and minds of men"

He made the call, it should not be changed. Yes it was a shame, but history wont record it as anything more.

In this case flexibility isnt warranted. The rigid stance is the correct one.
Joyce was flexible after the fact, thats all we need to know.

Is spanking your child too rigid and inflexible? Or is it teaching a lesson?
June 11, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
HB, which call was actually the right one? The original or the subsequent?
June 12, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You said it all,
right there John.
Gary, there's only one right call.
That's why we need a showdown
in this country between those
on the right and those on the left.
Time to have it out.
The right is devoid of thinking
and humanity and has an edge
in a might vs right, money oriented depersonalized
society but from the it's lack of depth
and real understanding
will only come brutalism and fascism.
I say bring it on.
Better to have made the right call
and let a guiltless man free
than enslave a million
to keep the sheep from being nervous.
The call should be overturned,
now and forever.
Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame,
now and forever.
Lively bats and balls,
now and forever.
June 14, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
the right call was made.ump may have blown the call on the field,but he made it and now it stands,no do over's.the players were polled(by espn) about a replay system and the said no replay.
pete rose broke the rules and lied about it,he doesn't get in.
June 14, 2010
stick8
1298 posts
I believe Pete Rose hasn't been indicted simply because of his attitude when he admitted to gambling. He wasn't very remoseful, like he was sorry he got caught. Plus he did sign an agreement years ago.
June 24, 2010
HB
19 posts
Dirty,
The subsequent call.
June 25, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Then it sounds to me like a good piece of officiating.
July 17, 2010
HB
19 posts
Dirty: WRONG!!!!
July 19, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Maybe I am missing something, but if the second call was the correct one and that is the one that stood how is that not good?
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