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Discussion: Time Limits

Posted Discussion
July 23, 2010
cal50
Men's 50
266 posts
Time Limits
The tournaments I have played so far all get over pretty early. When people travel they don't want a time limit. If there is a time limit, what is the reason for making everyone touch the next base on a home run? That takes time away from the game.

July 23, 2010
birdie
Men's 60
676 posts
Dave, The only thing that I like about time limits is when I come back for a 200PM game it normally starts very close to 200PM. I hate to get there for a 200PM game and it does not start till 500PM. I think time limits are great for that reason. Thanks Harry
July 23, 2010
Jawood
Men's 50
788 posts
A 1 and 1 count will speed up games up to 10 minutes.
July 23, 2010
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2617 posts
I can understand a tournament director wanting time limits but I don't understand players wanting it. Schedule games 2 hours apart and they should be on time. If the number of games make this unreasonable, move some divisions to another weekend, al la SPA, or start them a day earlier!
Another way to speed up games is to make balls over the fence hrs, not singles.

Harry, if the games run behind it's a problem for the td or maybe the umpires, not players. Longer games may mean umpires get more $$. I'd be willing to pay more.
Get tds to schedule games further apart.
July 23, 2010
cal50
Men's 50
266 posts
I just think that the time limits can change the game. If they would do the 1 and 1 like jaywood says and not make people touch the next base on a homerun, the time expiring before 7 innings would come into play much less often.
July 23, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Lets keep changing the game until we dont recognize it at all.
We dont need more rules, we need fewer.
July 23, 2010
stattad
Men's 65
166 posts
I'm not sure about the 1 & 1 count. The games I have played in seem to have a lot more walks. The games might even take longer!
July 23, 2010
Jawood
Men's 50
788 posts
UP TO 10 minutes a game, not every game. It would require a pitcher to throw strikes. It does speed it up some, on average.
July 23, 2010
cal50
Men's 50
266 posts
Changing the game? Making people touch the next base and starting with an 0 0 count is changing the game and slowing it down.
July 24, 2010
ChiPrimeMarty
Men's 55
65 posts
"A 1 and 1 count will speed up games up to 10 minutes."

Amen to that. Outside of Senior Softball, it's been close to 30 years since I've played with 0-0 count. It's such a hitter's game already, and with 3 strikes to play with we can usually wait for a big fat pitch to come our way. With a 1-1 count you've got to be aggressive with that first pitch if it's a strike (or close to a strike). In my experience batters will take a lot more pitches with a 0-0 count. The 1-1 count gives the pitcher a little bit of an edge and with that fewer runs are scored which also shortens game times. The number of walks issued has a lot more to do with the competency of the pitcher than with the count.
July 24, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I love the 1-1 count both on "O" and "D".
It makes both more aggressive
picking up the rhythm of the game
as well as shortening to overall time.
July 24, 2010
turn2
484 posts
There were no time limits in Dalton, Ga. in DE and I don't think they got behind. Our games in the 60's started on time.
When you can score runs the run rule helps out on stopping some of the games and this keeps it on schedule.
I do not like playing 2 or 2 1/2 hour games like in Vegas. The rules that some tournaments make you do is crazy at times. There can be time saved in games. The 1-1 count will save a lot of time and make the hitter hit instead of watching a lot of pitches.
Donnie
Turn Two
July 24, 2010
UMP IN NORTH GA.
47 posts
1. 1 AND 1 WILL SPEED THE GAME UP
2. TAKING INFIELD BETWEEN INNINGS TAKES TOO MUCH TIME ... 60S 70S I DONT SEE IT AS MUCH WITH THE YOUNGSTERS
3. TDS WITH 1 1/2 HOUR TIME SLOTS FOR POOL WORKED OUT FINE FOR THE MAJOR MAJOR+ GAMES CAUSE THEY DONT TAKE INFIELD FOR THE MOST PART BTWEEN INNINGS. 2 HOUR TIME SLOTS FOR BRACKETS WORKED FINE MOST WERE VERY CLOSE TO START TIME.
4. I ONLY HAD 1 GAME CUT SHORT DO TO THE TIME LIMIT ON POOL PLAY OUT OF 2 DAYS OF SOLID POOL PLAY. COMPARE THAT TO THE AAA AA AND IT WILL BE A WHOLE DIDFFERENT GAME ... THERE SLOWER TO GET ON THE FIELD.
5. TAKE YOUR WARM UPS THROWS BEFORE THE TEAMS FINISH THE GAME BEFORE YOU ... I COULDNT TELL YOU HOW MANY TIMES TEAMS CAME UP 5 MINS BEFORE GAME TIME AND HADNT THREW THE BALL AND SAID WELL WE EXPECTED THE GAMES TO RUN LATE. MY GROUP OF UMPIRES ON MY FIELD WERE TOLD IF YOU FINISH EARLY AND BOTH TEAMS ARE THERE AND THEY WANT TO START THEN START. IT ONLY HELPS KEEP THE FIELDS ON TIME. BUT NEVER FORCE A TEAM TO START BEFORE GAME TIME.

SO BOTTOM LINE FOR ME
1. HIT AND SET FOR HR AND 4 BASE ERRORS
2. NO INFIELD AFTER 1ST INNING
3. RUN ON AND OFF FIELDS
4. TDS SET TIMES FOR GAMES THAT ARE DOABLE
5. ILL DO MY PART AND NOT LEAVE FIELD IF I CAN HELP IT TO MOVE IT ALONG

THANKS JESSE
July 24, 2010
Jawood
Men's 50
788 posts
Think of the 1 and 1 count another way. For the price we are getting charged for these tournaments, would you want to play one extra inning a game which over the course of your 5-6-7 games in a weekend nets you the equivalent of one extra game or do you want to stand there and watch hitters take 2-3 pitches before swinging the bat and get to play the equivalent of one less game?
July 24, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Jay,
Terrific comment and insight.
1-1 count is the way to go.
July 25, 2010
bullet
Men's 55
130 posts
Here is a idea. Have tournament directors have ENOUGH nice fields, so we have time to play a WHOLE game. Come on they schedule 1hr & 15 Min for a game. The time is behind after the 1st game of the day. Someone mentioned running on and off the field, this must be a infielder,Trust me i respect you if you are. BUT guys count up the distance a outfielder moves over the span of a 7-8 game tourney. A 1-1 count is fine, WITH one foul.
Come on guys, when have any changes been made to these rules. I have spoken to Directors, wrote letters to the rules committee. NOTHING changes, we the guys who pays the bills are at the mercy of these directors. Once we pay our money they got us.BUT for me, whens the next tourney i can get into.See whoever is going to the ISA in Tenn.

Paul
Brickyard 55
July 25, 2010
DCPete
232 posts
We had to withdraw from a tourney yesterday when 2 of our guys got heat prostration. The 0 - 0 count had a lot to do with it as everybody had to spend too much time standing out in the sun waiting for batters to swing at a pitch. And even with games scheduled 90 minutes apart we still only played 6 innings most of the time.
There's absolutely no reason for using the 0 - 0 count in slo-pitch softball.
July 25, 2010
cal50
Men's 50
266 posts
Jesse, (Ump in North GA) except for # 3, I agree and wish they would listen.
July 25, 2010
GI
Men's 60
160 posts
As both a pitcher and hitter I would love to see rules changed to 1-1. Most pitchers are not concerned with 4 pitches to walk over 3 pitches and as a batter I am often told let first strike go by before swinging. Bring on 1-1 count and give us a better chance for 7 innings.Teams chasing after homerun balls would also help. It seems we have had to wait lately for new balls when umpire is out of them and balls are all over fence.
July 25, 2010
Jawood
Men's 50
788 posts
The number one reason that HR's are now outs is that the TD's did not want to chase the balls over the fence anymore. This is why the upper level teams are now playing AA rules after the 3rd or 4th inning. We need to get the rules that WE want to play back or at least some kind of compromise.
July 25, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Right on, JayW.
That's the connection between TDs
and a limited flight ball that was
of concern a lot of us.
If we define ourselves
the TDs will want to come along.
We need to begin and continue
to define ourselves
or end up 'somewhere else'.
July 25, 2010
DoubleL10
Men's 65
809 posts
I do not mind the 1-1 count IF the umpires KNOW what 6 and 12 feet actually are. In Dalton, last weekend my first at bat of the tourney (SPA Nationals), 6 and 12 foot arch, I struck out looking on a pitch that never got over my shoulders. I am 6'4 - not 5 feet tall. I stood there waiting for "illegal" or "ball" but got "Strike 3" instead. I have played a lot of 1-1 counts in my career and my ONLY complaint is when the umpire calls a strike that is not a strike. It seems we have too many umps that call USSSA leagues during the week and put on a SPA or SSUSA hat on the weekend and forget the strike zone changes. JMHO
July 25, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Great comment, Larry.
I agree that the 6 foot line seems lower
in the east than it is in the west.
As a pitcher I like the umps giving
anything that can help getting batters out and I noticed that the pitcher from
Turn 2 as well as our pitcher
recognized that tendency
to their advantage.
July 25, 2010
Jawood
Men's 50
788 posts
You are right Double 10, a lot of umpires do USSSA leagues and SSUSA on the weekends, but they are entitled to do so, obviously, they just need to know where they are. I would like to see everything go to 6-10', just my personal preference. Did you get a 24 pack for the team after your K? lol!!
July 26, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1953 posts
I, also, have been a proponent of the 1-1 (we called it 3-2 count). Hitters game-hit the ball. My biggest concern is the umpiring and bad pitches being called strike two which puts you in the position of not trusting the ump and having to swing at a bad pitch. The mat takes that fear out except for the height thing. (Unlimited arc?)
As far as running on and off the field-I play outfield and am in conserve mode from the start of a tourney. Each time you go out and come in from the field you travel about 600 (300 X 2) times 7 innings equals 4200 feet which is roughly .8 of a mile. Times 7 or 8 games (or more) is 5 or 6 miles we would have to run. That is before the running you do fielding the position. (Don't get too technical on exact distances-only an illustration). I try to be ready to walk out there so as to be ready when the ump is to start an inning. As a young man I always ran in and out-as an old man, I am not so enthused about running. :-)
July 26, 2010
Garocket
Men's 55
141 posts
I will challenge any pitcher to stand on the mound and throw a pitch that does not get six foot high to drop on or behind the plate.

Unles the pitch has a bunch of excess speed on it it will drop in front of the plate

Get two of your team mates to stand about half way to home plate with a rope pulled at six feet and see how many stikes you can throw and keep it under six foot

I can tell you how many 0

Please do not respond until you try it

You will change your mind
July 26, 2010
Garocket
Men's 55
141 posts
Rember it does not have to go over the rope , it only has to touch it.
Because the rule states it must reach 6 foot not go over six foot, so if the ball as much as touches the rope it has reached its minimum
July 26, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
That involves 2 judgments.
0ne for excess speed and one for height.
Most umps are lucky enough to be able
to judge the height.
Perception is reality in this case
and the real 6 foot line must and does
give way to the perceived line
and that's what pitchers' look for/need
to throw balls that 'look like' fair
pitches. i.e. the art of pitching.
Also, if you watch very good U-Trip guys like Reedus and Rick Cady,
they release the ball from closer
to the ground which gives the ball
more oppty to arch on the way to the plate and come down at a sharper angle.
July 26, 2010
Omar Khayyam
984 posts
Played in windy conditions for awhile and learned to throw a knuckleball which I released about 6 inches from the ground. I doubt if it reached 6 feet every time, and it did drop on the plate (or behind) with consistency.

But Garocket's suggestion to get a couple of guys with a rope intrigues me. Maybe I will test it out again soon. Stopped throwing it because 1) too many guys licked their chops at a "low" pitch; 2) too many umps won't call a low ball, even a legal 6 or 7 footer; and 3) it is also hard on the body for an old man. :-)
July 26, 2010
Omar Khayyam
984 posts
By the way, never got called for excessive speed—maybe because it was a knuckleball and looked slow.
July 26, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
webbie just talked with an outfielder this past weekend about that same thing.he said if ya play 7 games that is 7 miles almost per tourney,yikes and they wonder why we can't be running in and out at our ages in hi heat conditions.

rocket i have seen it a bunch,i play a lot of utrip and hardly ever see a ball get to the top of my head(i'm 5'9"),and no to fast speed call.
personally i think with a mat,you hit it its a strike,and no i don't do a lot of senior pitching,but do pitch for the kids in ASA and USSSA a lot.
jawood spoken like a hitter,the 6-10' is the most hitter friendly window to try and throw a ball threw,might as well as let ya's use a tee.
July 27, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
A good pitcher will keep each at bat moving, no need to artifically do it with a 1-1 count.
July 27, 2010
Garocket
Men's 55
141 posts
It is odd that not one person said they tried the rope while trying to keep it under the rope.
Kudos to Omar for saying he would try it.

Guys I am a UIC and I do this at all my clinics and I can tell you it cannot happen unless you have a very excessive speed pitch. In regular young boy ball that 6 foot 1 pitch that lands behind the plate may not have been above the knee in the strike zone but it has to get 6 ft to get to the plate. But in Senior softball the knee or should has nothing to do with the strike zone only the 6-12 and it hits the plate or mat
Guys all I ask is stop the arguments and go try it

I promise you will come back with a different opinion
July 27, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
It's a very compelling graphic
but perception is reality
and it's what the ump perceives
and batter perceives that's critical
to both the pitcher and game.
How many strikes are shown to be balls
on the camera they use in MLB now.
Does it really matter what the machine
emits?
Not really.
The pitcher wants the batter and ump
to see the ball as above that line
when he throws irrespective of whether
or not it scientifically is.
Remember, science says there's no such thing as a curve ball and that bumble bees can't fly.
July 27, 2010
Garocket
Men's 55
141 posts
Not excatly sure what you are trying to sat Einstein. Its not prception if it is fact.
All I am saying is that players say a ball that hit the mat did not reach 6 foot is arguing the wrong message,

Einstien I am sure you can find at least 2 friends to pull that rope at 6 foot, then you can see first hand, that reality sometimes makes sense
July 27, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
rocket i have a pvc setup that is 73" tall and the lo side is at my knees(approx 24"),and a width of 24" i pitch thru to simulate a strike zone(not for mat ball,but call strike).yes it its a touch hi,but i move it back and forth from the plate for my height's.i think most batters can tell the 6' level,its the higher level that can be harder to judge i think.don't even get me started on usssa 3-10'.
July 27, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
What einstein was saying is pretty clear. Perception is reality. It doesn't really matter if a pitcher is 6' or not if the ump thinks it is. THAT is what becomes the reality, NOT the science and geometry of the pitch.
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