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Discussion: nature of bat cheating...

Posted Discussion
July 27, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
nature of bat cheating...
The intrinsic desire to hit
a ball far and well is the culprit
at the bottom of the well of why there's bat cheating, I do believe.
I spoke with Scott a 28 year old
bomb hitting stud at a SF league game
last night and he backed up
what I have always said and that is
the kids cheat to ensure they can hit
the balls well.
The overall quality of the balls,
he was saying, gets worse and worse
and players who love to hit with good bats and balls use/buy hot bats
to ensure hitting well
or actually, to keep from getting
cheated themselves.
There is not a scintilla of doubt in my mind that this isn't true
about most to all players
of our game.
We need ways to bust cheaters
just like giving out tickets
on a highway slows down drivers.
Because there is not enough
regulation in what is permissible
more and more players will go
to secure having a good time
and not being taken advantage of.
And if we, just like in seniors,
ensure a good time by ensure using
good equipment, the problem wouldn't get out of hand.
July 27, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
so we need to cheat to have a good time,yeah right.
its b/c of the cheaters that the
balls are being dumb down,
along with the ego's of fools
that think its cool to
hit a ball so hard to
kill someone.
this is a rec sport,we
are not being paid to put
our life on the line,
why should we have to,
to enjoy a rec
sport,no other sport is
that way for the common man.
maybe i'll go play
paintball and use live ammo
instead of paint balls,that
should give me a thrill.
July 27, 2010
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Some of us play in kids leagues and the bat cheating is RIDICULOUS! While I can see the point made that we don't NEED senior bats to have a good time, I would be against banning them because altered bats would start creeping into senior ball. At least now I don't think we see any altered Ultras or any other senior bats.
July 27, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
you can bet there are some out there.if they would cheat using the kids bats,they'll do the same with the senior bat.the 52-275 ball will make all bats preform the same,they can do all the cheating they want and it doesn't make a difference.its the reason usssa uses that ball now.
July 27, 2010
crusher
Men's 70
395 posts
We seniors do not need to alter bats, as they are already altered. I do love them. With the ball slowed down the bat and ball are now in sync with each other.
When the ball was 525-47 The miken came out and got banned. Even though that was a fun combination it was dangerous.
Seniors it seems like we have a great balance right now, if possible you who know some VIP's in softball ask them to keep it like it is.
Thanks, may all have a great day.
July 27, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
If the balance was that 'great' now we wouldn't have PPRs, screens, mandatory gear, and pitcher's boxes.
July 27, 2010
crusher
Men's 70
395 posts
Dirty, I do not see any screens or mandatory gear in the tournaments I have played in. Pitcher's boxes are probably to keep them from pitching from center field (LOL).
No disagreement with your thaughts as the 50 year old teams do seem to hit a few more out than the 65 teams.
Different worlds I guess.
July 27, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
I haven't seen them in tourneys either, but have in leagues around here.

My thought was to have everyone pitch from the rubber, like it is supposed to be used. That would stop pitching from CF too. :)
July 27, 2010
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
I don't get this PPR at all...this weekend in SSUSA/HALF CENTURY, I didn't mean to but I hit a line drive off the pitcher, IT WAS A PRETTY GOOD SHOT.........I was expecting to be called out.......nothing.Problem is, I would be out, but the pitcher would still be hurt, go figure !Never saw it called at all..

mad dog, did you see it called at all ?
July 27, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
For SSUSA, page 48 in the rule book. Rule 6.17 pitchers equip...... then Rules 6.17(1), 6.17(2), 6.17(3) and 6.17(4)
Boils down to; wear it or sign release form, have insurance, etc, etc..
July 27, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
#6, I certainly don't think it is a good idea but the thought is that it is a deterrent. If I shoot a guy I, if convicted, go to prison or worse. The guy is still dead, but the idea is others see that, decide they don't want to go to prison (or worse) and that deters them from doing it.

I am not so sure deterrents work, but I believe that is the thought process here.
July 27, 2010
stick8
1295 posts
While we can all suspect players of using shaved bats the only way to accurately determine if someone is using a shaved bat is to cut the bat open and examine the inside walls.
July 27, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
the only thing was that our pitchers had to sign the useless wavier,or wear protective gear.for me what happens if all pitchers say pack sand,who do we get to pitch.like what is said once the pitcher is hit,its to late.
kenny there is no PPR any more just wear equipment or sign the wavier.
the use of the 52-275 ball helps with our protection.i seen a ball almost take a SS head off this weekend,luckily he got his head out of the way.
July 27, 2010
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
mad dog,
Would that have been me...you last hitter, the great big guy hit a rocket at me that took a realy bad hop, luckily it was to my left.
July 27, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
There’s no doubt it is fun to hit home runs. I like it, you like it, einstein likes it, everyone likes the feeling and satisfaction. But the idea that the only way softball can be fun is to be able to hit a home run is ludicrous.

I played softball for 50 years before I hit my first home run. Fifty years, every season, and not one home run. Then I bought a Miken and suddenly, for a pipsqueak like me, the home runs started to come! But does that mean I didn’t have fun the first 50 years! Of course it was fun! I enjoyed every game, every play.

In fact, I enjoyed it more then when home runs were earned and other abilities and skills like base running and timely hitting and strategy and double plays were equally as important. It isn’t so much fun now when souped up bats and lively balls allow even little guys like me to put one over the fence. What a farce!

And the more I watch balls whiz by a competent infielder before he can take a step...see balls sail over the head of a good outfielder who can only watch in disgust...see guys practicing the uppercut swing to reach the fence...see pitchers tagged with a line drive they didn’t even see coming, the more I don’t find softball as fun as in the past.

einstein is right—young guys are cheating with doctored bats. And who taught them that softball is not “fun” unless you can hit the long ball, whether fair means or technologically aided means or by cheating? It’s the current bombers who aren’t satisfied with the 300 foot home run—it has to be 350 or 400. Bragging rights, I guess.

I’ve argued before that softball is a declining sport. We’re losing older players who no longer find the game balanced and fun; younger leagues are shrinking because only the burly boys with the long ball are welcome and average players find something else to do.

I’m all for home runs. They have always been an exciting part of the game. I hate to see a home run called an out or even a single. But the current lively bat/ball combo has cheapened the home run so that half the team can hit them. Whoopdedoo. The more we emphasize offense to the detriment of defense, the more the young guys are tempted to cheat (and cheating will come to senior ball as well—what about the team that tossed out balls for their team to hit that had been kept in coolers?). Sad.
July 27, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hitting a ball/object fast,
hard and well
has been the goal of baseball/softball
ever since cavemen, I would hazard.
That's where the ooohs/ahhhhs have always been which means recognition
and accomplishment.
It also signals when someone's technique
is working correctly.
Also, it can be argued
that the faster/harder
a ball is hit
the more likely one will get on base
which is key to winning.
And for sure, winning always was
and always will be a-n, if not t-h-e
important drive in playing the game.
All to say,
hitting a good ball with a good bat
is intrinsically satisfying
to playing the game.
It's this fact that has been strategically overlooked
in the arguments about using "lesser".
July 27, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
in the arguments about using a "lesser"
bat/ball combo.
July 27, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
einstein is right: it is "intrinsically satisfying" when one uses a good bat with a good ball. I had many a good bat back in the day when they were all wood. Later, I had a favorite aluminum bat that was satisfying (in fact, I still have that bat in the garage somewhere).

And many a slugger then was "intrinsically satisfied" when his ball went 250 feet over the fence back in the 50s and 60s, and then went 265 feet or even 275 in the 70s. These were sluggers who deserved the fame and recognition that einstein talks about—being in shape, good technique, winning with slams.

Of course, most of them were then (and still are today) genetically gifted so they were taller, heavier, stronger than most other players. Did you see the gorillas that were slamming the ball for the USA team this week? I would say none of them were even close to the average softball player in physique.

But I'm talking about the average player like me who suddenly can hit home runs only because of super bats. This is a joke. What's next? Bats that can propel the ball 500 feet? They can probably make them right now. It's a sad world when only hitting a long ball can be fun or satisfying. There are so many other aspects of the game that have been drowned by the high tech bats.

If we reduced the velocity of the ball by either changing the ball or the bats, I'm sure that einstein and some of his friends might look for an association that would cater to their desire for the long ball to the exclusion of defense, safety, etc. We would lose some, but the vast majority would stay with us and senior softball might even begin to grow again as a sport!
July 28, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
A "good" bat? Sure.

A special bat? Not if it starts to completely change the game.
July 28, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
The assertion that by cutting bats back would increase cheating is a sad, sad commentary on our whole society. That a recreational game could be so important that you have to cheat is unbelievable. That players can cheat and live with themselves under the belief that "Well, everybody does it. I have to to compete!!!" is even worse. I grew up with the belief I could be one of the best if I worked hard, learned the game. I have always felt you go onto the field, look your opponent in the eye, and go out and do your best to beat him. Straight up. If he beats you, he was the better man and I went to work even harder to beat him next time. Cheating??? Never crossed my mind to cheat to win. It is a loss for us all when someone does cheat.
July 28, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Webbie, sad to say you appear to be in the minority.
July 28, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Terrific comments and position
Webbie and Gary.
Cheating is cheating but just like
on a freeway, speeding is cheating too
and when no one is giving out tickets
the averaqe speed of all increases.
We need to decide to use lively equipment, definitively and then prosecute lethal bat cheaters.
We need both elements to make it work.
When we move to a lesser bat/ball
combo it destroys a part of the good feeling necessary to enjoy the game,
is counter productive and will
NEVER work.
July 28, 2010
ETDave
4 posts
Great post, Webbie.

The senior league I play in uses ASA bats and balls. My thoughts are if you need anything hotter than that to feel good about yourself I feel sorry for you.
July 28, 2010
tattooball
620 posts
All I am going to say is that I have been waiting over 20 years to play senior softball, since I started working events in 1989.

I remember the days of R.B.Thomas's team with 3 big bombers and the rest of the guy s hitting base hits playing great defense. Big guy's didn't hit balls at pitchers back then because their job was to hit it over the fence as many times as they could no matter how many were on base. Of course this is when you actually had to have talent and work hard to be a home run hitter in the first place, bats and balls didn't make you a home run hitter.

Well I hate to say it but I will. After waiting 20 years to play I have decided not to. Along with many of my friends who also don't want to play because the game is watered down with rules because of the equipment. I will watch some of my friends run on and off the field every 5 runs and wait for that glorious open inning to play some real softball. Thanks for all of the technology driven rules.
July 28, 2010
Llama Man
Men's 55
15 posts
Those of you that think bat cheating is not happening in senior ball have your heads in the sand! I've even heard of guys taking Ultra II's still in the wrapper and having them rolled before ever being used!I've seen guys go get their fixed Miken Freak to hit the game winning homer when the Ultra II wasn't enough for them. But with no way to prove anything really, who wants to open a "can of worms" by making a protest? The "funny" thing is, it seems to be the guys who can already hit homers that feel the need to hit it 350 feet plus. It does devalue the other aspects of the game when guys can just blast rockets past or through the infelders! I don't have any answers but just don't want guys to think it's not happening in the senior game too! I like the bats and balls we use in SSUSA now but it is not going to stop the bat cheats.
July 28, 2010
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
I'm sure it's happening some, I just haven't noticed it but it can't be as bad as what is going on in kids ball.
July 28, 2010
crusher
Men's 70
395 posts
Trumpball, I played slowpitch since early70's (with wood bats), never hit one out of a 300ft fence. With alum bats once in a while. It was very difficult to get one out of the park.

A thaught, I hate to see you miss the fun of senior softball as you get a gift of friendship with so many people (plus winning).

It will be difficult but, you could start a new national softball league that is open to the best equipment with no limits on HR's as in the old days. These guys that run them now must make money so that would be another benefit.

c
July 28, 2010
GT
Men's 60
162 posts
Just adding my 2 cents. Since I run tournaments in Houston, I have taken a small poll of tournament players. 23 to be exact. Question :If we used a lesser bat (no utlra 2 or and just used the ball we normally use here(Trump 44/375), would you continue to play softball? 100% will continue to play even if they used a lesser ball also. These men like to play. If all use the same equipment, its an even field. So, anyone who thinks we will stop playing because they have taken away the livlier bats(anything comparable to the ultra2) is, at least in our area, mistaken. Its not lively bats and balls forever. Its softball.
again, this is just my 2 cents
GT
PS I still have my 34/38 ounce aluminum bat-Worth Heavy Weight .38 ounce bat. model ALS4H. I could hit one out on a 300 foot fence when I was young, the same I do with the Ultra2, up to a few years ago when I got old. Now, who wants to keep playing the game like we use to? We do.
July 28, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
well the 52-275 ball takes care of the cheaters and brings some sanity back to the game.if you can hit,you will still be able to hit this ball.it will stop the cheap hrs that are hit by people who would normally wouldn't,hey defense would be back in the game again.people who want the this hot bat/ball combo seem afraid their 400' hrs will be gone,who cares.most all fences are at 300' anyways,and if you are a hr hitter this ball will go that far and still keep the seniors playing a game they love,so quit crying about the fun being taken away,when you only advocate trying to kill someone with the hot bat/ball combo we now use,that seems to be the fun you want.

kenny ya that was in our game,i also seen a couple of times that balls were hit so hard the INF had a hard time reacting.

by the way,did any of your teammates hit any out,we had 0,but we still had fun did you guys.
July 28, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You don't punish cheaters
by punishing everyone.
That's punk, unfair,
grammar school stuff fraught
with self interest
and will never work.
Lively bats and balls is the way
we love to play this game,
always have, since we was babies.
Don't want to play?
Time for checkers and lawn bowling.
We just finished one of the most satisfying tournaments I've ever been in
in SPA a couple of weeks ago.
The Championship game was 10 to 8
with lively bats and balls.
We only hit 9 home runs
the entire tournament.
I hit one.
Lively bats and balls forever.

July 29, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Neil.
The drive to hit a ball far, fast and well is an intrinsic phenomenon.
Uncontrollable, really, like eating,
sleeping or the desire to be recognized
and loved.
That's what's underneath all this
disturbed, self-interested brew-ha-ha.
This drive needs
to be channeled and guided,
not unrecognized, thwarted and suppressed,
else nothing satisfying or long-lasting will be produced.
Lively AND safer?
Maybe.
Not-lively and safer?
Never.
July 29, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Joe lets see if you will actually ANSWER, lets look away from the M+ division, look to the lower divisions if you can. Think about skill levels, why do you think we have 4 different divisions? Now think about the age brackets in those divisions, still with me?
Just because the M+ can field (and I doubt even they have the skills to field balls hit 100+ MPH on a "regular" basis) this doesnt mean that players with lesser skills can. I am very close to quitting Tournament ball, the fun just isnt there any longer.
Do I want to quit, hell no, but why spend my hard earned $$$ to watch as ball after ball SLAMS past me. Just so I can hit that same ball 350", the trade off just isnt worth it.
You idea that hitting a ball hard, far, and fast doesnt hold much credence with those of us who used to enjoy playing defense on a skill level less them M+.
I know there are a few players in all divisions who are exceptional defensive players, but for the very large majority, most cant defend the Lively Bat and ball.
The more the hot stuff is advocated the more it will eventually kill our sport. IMO.

July 29, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
E4/E6,has he ever answered any questions yet.if the M+ hitters are true hitters the 52-275 ball is all they need.i have played with it and speak from experience of using it as some can not say that,or care to.they would rather endanger someone's life instead,in the name of fun,yeah right lets go hurt someone seriously.i have had plenty of fun using this ball and so have the teams in the tourney's i have played in using the 52-275 ball,unless you really can't hit.the ball is lively enough to go thru the infield good enough for the hitter to get their base hits and will get thru the gaps also.yes i have seen this and done it.you use poor mechanics and you won't be rewarded like our present hot combo will do for you,and don't say it doesn't b/c it does,that's why most of these composite hero's want to use the hot combo.
so bring some sanity ,safety and defense back into the game with the 52-275 ball.
July 29, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
I truly wonder about anyone who feels that good about hitting 'far and hard' significantly due to someone else's R & D and technology. Is there really any sense of accomplishment in that?

I know there can't be much pride involved, but any achievement there?
July 29, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Ahhhhhh.
The Usual Suspects.
All's right with the world.
Most to all players irrespective
of age and level of play prefer/want/need
to play with a lively bat/ball combo.
We don't have to worry about what that will ever look like in seniors though
as cooler heads have prevailed.
Lively bats and balls forever.
July 29, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joe, I hope I am not a "Usual Suspect". LOL

I know you can still hit with most anything, I just don't get the thrill in the equivalent of doing a 360 degree dunk using a trampoline.
July 29, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Key word SUSPECTS. As compared to the singular SUSPECT. 3 to 1 looks more like a majority to me.

As I thought.......No answer only rhetoric.....
July 29, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey John,
I read it again and saw a question.
Why are there different levels?
Different confidence/capability levels
which obviously don't change when the bat/ball combo becomes more lively.
Everyone is and does as before
just in a livelier, more fun setting.
Did I miss something important, John?
(Somebody stop me)
July 29, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
the fact that you would rather see someone killed than live to be able to go back to their family,but i guess that is not really important to you.
i have used the 52-275 ball and can hit .700 with it against the kids,whats the matter you afraid.
as the usa/canada game showed,it can be hit out fairly easy if your a hr hitter.
July 29, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Joe you hit it on the nose my friend, the different levels (divisions) have different capabilities, ie. lesser skills as the divisions drop down. This said it would indicate slower or less capable (your words) play in general.
However players still hit the ball 100 mph, with that in mind how much defense can be expected from the lower divisions? When you only care about one aspect of the game you really arent much of a player.
Maybe its time to start thinking about Senior Softball as a whole and not only from the top. Try if you can, to look at the divisions you DONT play in and ask yourself these same questions.
July 29, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
The ball fundamentally doesn't change
the skill level/capability of any player,
set of players or group of players,
John.
It doesn't and it can't.
There is and always will be differences
in levels of players and the liveliness
of the ball has little or nothing
to do with them.
July 29, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
How sure are you, Robert
that the ball used in that contest
was a 52x275 ball and would your argument
be the same if the ball was hotter/different?
July 29, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Joe in general, power of players is near equal, with exceptions of course, meaning that any player who can hit a ball with a bat can generally drive the ball at 100+. Using current equipment.
As you move down the divisions and/or up in age brackets, the response time to track a ball off a bat is signifigantly slower, that is a fact. However with the current bats and balls, these same players can still drive the ball just as fast. Approx 100mph. The results are this, slower reactions x faster BBS = fewer defensive plays made. Pure and simple.
I dont know the answer, well yes I do but it wont happen anytime soon. That would be a step back in time to a slightly cooler bat/ball combo.
July 30, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I think the level of capability/skill
extends to hitting, too, John.
When I see the kind of bat speed
that Denny Crine generates or
Tim Mallet you realize how much more
some guys seem to get out of
what looks like the same working model.
July 30, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Thats why I put in the words "in general". We all know the elite players and their capabilities.
The average Joe (no pun intended) doesnt have those skills. And thats just my point.
July 30, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
We can beat this one to death,
John but I believe the skill levels
on both O and D are well defined
in all sports, including softball
at all the levels
and that better equipment
equally shared moves everyone up
equally across the board.

Just because a guy has a lively bat
doesn't make him better than his opponent with the same bat.
That's the part I think
you're not recognizing.
Performance is
commensurate with the developed
capability of the player
irrespective of the equipment used.
If you're a better player than me,
John than as long as we use the same
equipment, you'll still be better,
perform better than me
over the course of a whole game, tournament or season.
N'est-ce pas?
July 30, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
There is some truth to what einstein says, but he misses a big point.

For decades, I was a singles hitter with the occasional double. Although I am a faster than average runner, I could count the number of triples over 50 years on my two hands. The parks were smaller (could afford to be with cooler bats) and outfielders got to my gap shots quicker than I could get to third base).

Then came the Miken. Suddenly, I'm a home run hitter! Doesn't matter whether I hit it 290 feet over the fence or 400 feet. A home run is a home run. I have as much clout as many players stronger than I am. And with the ever larger parks due to the super bats, I now get lots of doubles and triples as well. In other words, I acknowledge that another player is stronger (not better, just stronger), but if we use the same hot equipment, I am now his equal! Ridiculous.

It works in defense as well. I am not a very good infielder. I'm inexperienced and maybe my instincts and reaction are a bit slow. It is easy to hit the hole on me. There are many infielders far better. Then came the Miken. Those better infielders are waving at the ball screaming by just like I do. We have been equalized as both unable to have much range.

I'm a better than average outfielder because I can run and judge the ball, but my weakness is going back on the ball. There are always better outfielders than me on my teams. Then came the Miken. I can stand and watch a ball sail over my head and hit or clear the fence as well as any other outfielder. We have been equalized in many ways.

Of course it is not always true: I have to hit the ball just right (although I have stronger teammates who can mishit the ball and still homer); I still have less range in the infield or going back in the outfield on a mishit slower ball. But the reality is that the lively bat/ball combo that isn't even ten years old has ruined the balance of offense and defense that used to give real clarity to who contributes and in which way to the team.
July 30, 2010
stick8
1295 posts
Good points Omar. Especially the last paragraph when you ellude to "hitting the ball just right". You could swing a shaved bat, original ultra 1, todays ultra 2 or even the old titanium bat and if you mishit it likely it'll fall in someones glove for an out.
July 31, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
stick8 that is not so,with the hot senior bats/balls we use, it can just as easily be hr.i know i have hit balls out that i really didn't get a good swing on.do i take it yes,do i feel i accomplish something,no.with the 52-275 ball you don't have to worry abut the cheaters(all bats work about the same with this ball) and still can use your senior bat,so no cost to replace them.
Aug. 1, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
720 posts
A lot of stuff here guys, but the main 2 issues seems to be bat cheaters and the balls that Einstein prefers to utilize(what a shock, LOL!). Mad dog, although Einstein will protest profusely, the 52-275 will help diminish the advantage of using illegal bats. Several guys do not think this is so prevalent, but bat cheaters are continually growing. I know of over 30 bat cheaters myself just in my town alone, and I am not one of them. The one's that I know cheat, I just walk. I will say that I examined an altered Ultra II today. In fact, it was an Ultra II sanded down and repainted to resemble a used Miken Freak. I looked at it for about 15 minutes and could not even tell. I swung it in a practice game(where Ultra II's were allowed to be used), and it was definitely an Ultra II, and was not denied by its owner. He ordered it that way. It is almost impossible for any umpire to tell, unless they hit a few balls with it. MANY guys are using this in leagues against 70 and older guys. Just no concern for other player's safety.

Anyway, before Einstein writes something to the effect of what does that have to do with tournament play, since we already are allowed to use Ultra II's. I will answer that now. Many of those banned original gray Ultra's are in the game now. They have been sanded down and repainted to resemble the black Ultra II. I just do not understand this type of behavior and disrepect for the game, but it does exist on a larger scale than we are aware of today. This is why I will only buy a new Ultra II, so I know it has not been altered, I hope.

Lastly, I know many of these players will not get caught in league play, because I know 4 quite well, AND THEY ARE ALL UMPIRES THAT PLAY SENIOR BALL AND/OR WITH THE YOUNG KIDS.

These bats can all be purchased on Ebay by companies that advertise this nonsense. If you must have one, go get one and I hope you somehow get caught. I cannot even tell you honest guys what else I know about bat cheaters, because it would probably make you sick to hear it. I have been offered these bats for free and declined. I respect those that play for the spirit of the game and with integrity. Those of you that have told me what you do to cheat, I do not respect and do not care to know any more.

Just my 2 cents worth!

Andy Smith,
Double Edge,
60 Major
Aug. 1, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
andy,you are so right.people just bury their heads and say it is not happening.it is being done all over the country,including seniors.i'm with you in not pitching to them if i know they are bringing dirt to the plate,if they ask me i'll straight out tell them,come to the plate clean and i'll pitch to you(this is mostly in the kids game as i rarely pitch in senior ball).its the reason i advocate going to the 52-275 ball to keep things on the even,cheaters won't prosper with this ball and we can play a level game.

live long and prosper,52-275.
Aug. 1, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
Duke, what an informative post...and pretty depressing. I'm with you 100% on your last paragraph. Most seniors I know respect the integrity of the game, but evidently I am naive about some who are already cheating. For what? Another T-shirt? Bragging rights (knowing inside that you are a fraud)? A win? Sad, sad, sad.
Aug. 2, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Duke.
I don't know one guy who I think has sanded down a grey Ultra
and painted it as an Ultra 2.
My point being that seniors don't
fix, paint, end-load, shave, alter bats
much at all.
I play with the kids on Wednesday nights
and sometimes to fill in on Monday nights.
I don't own an ASA bat so I have to use
one of theirs all the time
and I've tried a bunch, especially ones that seemed to hit well and none of them I'd say were fixed.
My experience is that there are not as many cheaters/cheating as others seem to think so and the answer even if there were wouldn't be to punish
or slow down the game for the rest of us.
It would be to catch and punish THEM
bringing meaningful regulation
back into the bat/ball arena
which is all we need.
Aug. 2, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
This is one area where einstein and I agree. We both favor serious punishment for bat cheaters (not for the poor sap who unknowingly borrows an altered bat). Hope einstein is right about little cheating going on in senior ball.
Aug. 2, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
720 posts
Einstein & Omar,

I agree that the "poor sap issue" on borrowing a bat unknowingly or buys one unknowingly, and I would also agree that the manager should not take the fall with them either. How can the manager control this type of behavior?

How do you catch someone using an altered gray Ultra. Impossible! It has been completely sanded down, then repainted professionally and swings and hits just like an Ultra II, I am assuming, since I never had one. How many are doing this?? Who knows. I only know of 2 guys, only because they stupidly told me. If there are 2, then there are more. I would think most would not go this extreme with the Ultra II available, but who really knows. If I had to venture a guess on this situation only of bat cheating, I would guess less than 1 1/2% of the players are doing this. Honestly, I have no idea.

The guy that I eluded to in my previous post is not even a power hitter. He just wants to be able to hit the ball quickly through the infield. This is a different situation than Einstein has addressed. it was good sharing thoughts on this matter with you guys.

My next bat will be the yellow combat sanded and painted gray. Just kidding!

Andy Smith,
Double Edge,
60 Major
Aug. 3, 2010
MaverickAH
59 posts
Einstein is correct on one matter:

A lot of the younger players swing altered sticks.

The major flaw in his logic is that people just don't wake up one day & change character! If they're cheating in their 20's, they'll be cheating in their 30's......, 40's......, 50's......, etc. Guys are turning 40 & 50 every day! Does anyone think that reaching a certain age brings automatic enlightenment & morality?

I personally know of guys in their 40's & 50's who are swinging shaved & painted sticks. If anyone thinks that keeping a hot ball in play is going to deter cheating, they're just dead wrong.
Aug. 3, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
Up until I found this site last winter, I was also Captain Bury-my-head-in-the-sand. I had heard rumors of cheating, but never heard of a 'shaved bat' or a 'rolled bat'. The idea of repainting a bat never occurred to me. As competitive as I am, it is still a game we play for recreation. A game for exercise, fun, comaraderie, and the competitive spirit. Old Fashioned? Yes I am. A person could actually get paranoid about becoming the 'poor sap' that uses someone elses bat that is doctored and getting caught. Again, we, as a society also, are asking for 'Big Brother'. We have to monitor everything any more. We can't behave as a society, and can't behave on the field. We are asking for certification check points before every tournament to check legality of bats. We are asking for a way to catch the cheaters and you can bet it will cost us more out of pocket for these safeguards. Maybe registering every bat with a bar code on a chip that certifies the bat and who it is registered to. Each time you bat, the umpire scans the code to make sure it is legal. And the cheaters will find a way to beat the system. Too Bad we have come to this.
Aug. 3, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Using good (lively) equipment to start is essential but there must be regulation, i.e. busting cheaters
and the threat of busting cheaters
at any time just like with speeders
on a highway.
Then the community can understand
the philosophy and the practice,
believe that it will work
and then exert the peer pressure
that's essential to take cheating
down to only a recalcitrant few.
Good bats and balls,
a way to check/enforce rules
and peer pressure--
that's the way it's gonna work
to keep the game alive and healthy
and fun for all of us going down the road, together.
I hear some folks say they
care about us and our game
while they're exerting pressure
in one direction and that's not
gonna cut it.
We need an understanding, balanced
and common sense approach
so as to not throw
out the baby with the bath water and we'll all have to chip in
to make it work.
Aug. 3, 2010
stick8
1295 posts
Mad Dog I cans ee that being true for some players but I'd say if it's a bad swing or misses the sweetspot the vast majority of balls will likely land in someones glove. An analogy would be the steroid use in major league baseball. Would Barry Bonds have hit all those homers if he didn't juice? A case could be made for no. But if he didn't have that textbook type home run swing all the steroids in the world wouldn't have helped him THAT much. jmo
Aug. 3, 2010
stick8
1295 posts
MaverickAH, I agree 100%. The saying "leopards never lose their spots" applies here. Bat cheaters usually don't have an epiphamy of any type.
Aug. 3, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
yep maverick you are so right.once they start they won't stop.hot bats and balls will not keep our game in check as some profess.the 52-275 ball will.
stick,with the steroids he was able to keep his strength up over the course of the year and not get tired.
on the bad swings going out,well let me say it this way,and they do,
bad swing = 295-305'
good swing = 315' on up
Aug. 3, 2010
stick8
1295 posts
Ah, but mad dog if Bonds didn't have that sweet swing he wouldn't have thrived like he did--even with the roids.
Your bad swing, good swing ration is true for some power hitters but not everyone that plays senior ball is a power hitter.
Aug. 3, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
Anyone who doesn't think roids made a huge difference isn't watching. Only one or two guys even approach 50 any more-right back where it was. Yes, Bonds had that sweet swing and power. I believe he would have been a firm hall of famer anyway, but there is one intangible that a lot of softball players have experienced, that I have never seen discussed here. It is a feeling I call 'free swinging' and it is that relaxed swing you get when you are in a groove. You know you can mis-hit the ball and it is still going out. He was so strong that he knew if he mishit the ball he could still hit it out at any time. That keeps you relaxed and not overswinging as can happen when you know you have to get all of it to get it out. That plus the many extra games he was able to play due to being more resilient in his older age clearly made a huge difference in how many HR's he hit. Without roids, I very much feel he may have threatened 600 homeruns, and topped out at 50 or so in a year. Still a heck of a career. But we will never really know and he will always be branded by his choices.
Aug. 3, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Great insight, Mark.
I never saw that one about Barry Bonds
but it makes perfect sense.
When you're confident your swing is better no matter how you got there.
But also, Bonds used a Maple bat
which for many is hotter than the ash
and further contributed to his positively
good feeling and performance.
Aug. 3, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
sweet swing doesn't help you with strength,like steroids can.like webbie says,you get more endurance from them.
another variation on the swing ratio,would be
singles hitters get balls thru the inf at lot quicker rate than they ever could using saner equipment and still be hitting hrs out.no such thing as a singles hitter with our hot bat/ball combo.
Aug. 3, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
how can wood bats be hotter than each other,did you not see kevin's post about the maple bat,it is lighter so they can get more bat speed,b/c it is dried out more than ash.why don't you read and pay attention when someone posts instead of just dismissing them and bringing your nonsense to the thread.
Aug. 3, 2010
tattooball
620 posts
Garbage in garbage out.....
Aug. 3, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Enter the Usual Unspects.
Maple effectively hits better regardless
of all the gobbley-gook else why
was it developed and sanctioned
in 1997.
Why would players risk their livelihood
and careers to change and swing them
if they weren't better that what they'd
gotten used to?
C'mon, man.
Aug. 3, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
Perception is much of the battle. If you THINK maple is better, it will be for you.

Same thing happens with bats. Einstein and others on several threads keep talking about bats that are "just as good" "just under" "almost as good" "maybe better" than the Miken II. Yet the great majority of senior players in SSUSA use the Miken because the PERCEPTION is that it is a vastly superior bat...and so they swing it with more confidence.

I believe einstein and others that there are equally hot bats now available. My desire is to eliminate all of these composite bats because they just perpetuate the unbalanced game with its overemphasis on offense to the detriment of meaningful defense, base running, and strategy. Let's return to the bats of just 10 years ago when softball was still a lively, fun game and attracted more players than the current version.
Aug. 3, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
720 posts
Omar,

As much as I enjoy the good feeling of using the Ultra II, I agree with you. The problem is that too many will not agree with your wisdom.

Andy Smith,
Double Edge,
60 Major
Aug. 4, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Andy, you are correct. Unfortunately far too many have far too little pride.
Aug. 4, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
mad dog-there is a limit to weights on major league bats-the weight has to be within 3 ounces of the length-ergo a 34 inch bat cannot be lighter that 31 ounces. I was at the Tigers facility in Lakeland and the talk was that the bats are actually livlier. The pros feel this way for sure. I have not been able to find anything definitive, but a site comparing the 2 says there is no proven difference between maple and ash as far as liveliness is concerned. It seems to be a perception that won't go away because Barry Bonds hit his 73 steroid tainted homeruns with maple. Omar-great statement about perception becoming reality-right on! And that goes right back to the confidence thing I talked about and 'free-swinging'.
Aug. 4, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
So did lots of the other home run
hitters and pitchers of that era that still loves
to witch hunt/single out Barry Bonds
FOR SOME REASON,
and destroy his accomplishment/legacy.
A shame really.
He very well could be
the greatest hitter of all time.
Rackets, clubs and bats and balls
have been improving every since they
were invented.
Ever see the tennis racket Rod Laver
used compared with those of today.
A mediocre pro could run Rod Laver
off the court
with his old wooden dinasor.
So what.
Improvements in glove making, ball making, bat making are all part of the evolution of stuff in our culture
for tons of reasons.
Look at the difference in size,
catching ability in baseball gloves
from older times to now.
That's not fair to the older player
is it?
I heard this the other day and it made
me laugh out loud.
"Back in the day
we hit rocks for balls
and didn't where shoes."

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water and remember
most of us seniors like the game
the way it is now for good reasons
and it's easily evidenced.
Aug. 4, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
so in your twisted little mind steroid use is good to go,when in fact it is a form of cheating.so your telling us your condone cheating,but you make this thread up wanting to call out cheaters,way to go cheater.
Aug. 4, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I'm against anyone being singled out
for what more than 50 per cent of major league-ers were doing.
Still a sensitive issue with you,
eh Robert about bat cheating, that is.
I don't swing or make
and never have knowingly
loaded, altered or shaved bats
to use in any game at any level.
Is that clear enough for you?
Can you say the same thing?
Trying to bring everyone down
to your level, again
so you can say everyone's a cheater
and make yourself feel better, perhaps?
Well it's just not true.
The overwhelming majority of players
I play with/against don't use
cheater bats, Bob.
Clear enough?
Aug. 4, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
like i have said before,your welcome to check any bat i use,but as usual you don't read that part and feel better about your self by slandering people,which seems to be your typical MO.show me the facts,slanderer.

so you go ahead and say b/c 50% do steroids and cheat that it is ok,yeah right.
so i'm starting to believe that you protest to much about this cheating thing that you are doing it also.


so if 50% of the general public commit a crime it is ok for others to do so.
i love when you open your mouth and insert your dirty foot.
Aug. 4, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Hey now, leave the word 'dirty' out of this! LOL
Aug. 4, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I just asked you, Robert to make the same declaration I made
about fixed, shaved and loaded bats,
that's all.
You don't have to and I'm not accusing you of anything.
We're all God's children, aren't we
and I wouldn't want to have to make a list of all my sins for any reason
to anybody.
But you like to talk "dirty" to me
but don't like it when it splashes
back on you and bites you in the butt.
Stop being disrespectful, Robert
so I can stop sticking up for myself.
Aug. 4, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
We're tired of being told Robert,
by you and of couple of others
that cheating is rampant in senior ball
and I and most others frankly don't see it and are tired of being labeled
as such.
Some folks have pushed the idea that there's so much cheating going on
that we have to go to much lesser ball
and they're so stuck in the same gear,
accusing everyone of bat cheating
when again, it's truly not the case.
Aug. 4, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
Andy, thanks for your support. I have more to lose, in some people's way of thinking, if we return to non-composite bats. Every home run I've hit in tournaments or league play has been with a Miken 2! That's every home run in my whole life and I've been playing league and tournament softball since 1953.

Who doesn't like the thrill of a home run? We all do. But I miss the balanced game that I loved and played for 50 years before the advent of the super bat.

And the more I play senior ball and see guys my age, and even younger, good fielding guys, get eaten up by a Miken grounder the sadder it is. The more pitchers that get zonked...the more outfielders vainly chasing a shot in the gap by a pipsqueak (like me)...the more great daring baserunners now trotting around the base as the guy behind hits one off the fence...the disappearance of hitting behind the runner because the batter feels he can clear the left fielder...the sadder I am.

But I also agree with you that I may not live long enough to see sanity return to senior softball.
Aug. 4, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
as usual you didn't read anything,show where i have done anything as per your slanderous accusations,i don't need to answer a slanderer of your caliber.you have already proven what comes out of your mouth can't be taken seriously.my offer to let you(or anyone for that matter) check my bats still stands.
Aug. 5, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
Einstein, I went with Barry as an obvious example to start as to not get wordy about all that did use steroids, but since you made a point of it, McGwire, Palmiero, Sosa, A-Roid, Clemens, etc. etc. They all cheated and it taints their accomplishments. A-roid finally got 600. Who cares?-he cheated-it taints his every accomplishment. You say 50% did juice and I believe it is much higher. Reason? If I am competing against someone who is 'juicing' and he is kicking my tail for my position, I would have looked real hard at leveling the playing field so I could compete. Those who believe it was a couple times for an injury-I sincerely doubt it. Once you get the 'power' to do things, it is hugely intoxicating and it is hard to go back to not having that power. Same with these bats. We are all, to some extent, intoxicated with the unbelievable power these bats bestow on us. My parents did instill a strong morality about cheating in me, but I honestly don't know what I would have done if I had been in the majors competing with someone who was juicing. But it was wrong and those who did juice should pay the price for it. No Hall of Fame-no recognition for milestones reached. To me, it is the same as if Pujols were to hit 75 home runs and then it was revealed that he had a very advanced bionic arm. I doubt there is a rule against that yet, but it would be wrong to hide that fact and set records with an advantage like that.
Aug. 5, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Not to reprise the steroid thing, again,
but it was part of an era.
It was being promoted and over-looked
all over the place.
Baseball fueled and was fueled
by the Sammy/McGuire home run race
which helped return interest and popularity after a devastating "Strike".
Of course it shouldn't have happened
but no ONE or small group
should be made to take the freight
for what was commonplace and supported.
These guys have to protect their salaries/families/stats,
too which makes them
and the era more human and not
devil-like, cut and dried.
Baseball should have issued a decree
that steroid use would no longer be
tolerated beginning the following
year and not prosecute or contribute
to the prosecution of ANYONE.
Politics and government got involved
for all the wrong reasons and then
it got out of hand.
I don't believe in true cheating
for lots of reasons but
it hollows any true victory
or competition so dramatically that
those that win when cheating
become losers and the real losers in any contest.
You know who a real hero was/is
in that Balco stuff?
It's the guy who won't "rat" or talk to the grand jury or testify to betray
any confidence he had with his friend
even though they punish him
and threaten to punish him for it
all the time.
That's a real man in many ways and a definite kind of hero for a lot of us.

Wise men often fail
where shrewd men can prevail.
Aug. 5, 2010
stick8
1295 posts
Einstein I believe your correct in that the vast majority of senior players don't shave their bats or cheat. And your also correct the actions of a few do not accurately represent the whole. Last night in a local mens league I play in a known bat shaver told me that some senior players in the area have been giving him their ultra 2's and maxload ultra 2's to shave. They're also having him put in more end-load. It is happening and it's a damn shame. AFAIC if anyone has to cheat with any bat they should stay home. And the bat shaver is in some hot water.
Aug. 5, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
That's amazing that any senior
would shave or end-load a bat
as hot as senior bats are
but I'm sure it's being done
by a VERY few people for whom we have to develop a system to discourage
which is not in place now.
Having significant regulations and adhering to them is key to grounding
and securing the efforts and energy
of any community.
I made an Ultra 2 more endloaded
a while ago by taking the pin out
and pouring some plastic into the head
but I only used the bat in BP.
Maybe these guys will do the same
and interestingly,
even though it felt better
being more endloaded
it didn't really hit any better
than my regular Ultra 2.
Aug. 5, 2010
stick8
1295 posts
Einstein, the only thing I can think why these people do it is they feel they can't hit well enough to keep up.
BTW, nice job in Georgia!! After those guys missing their connecting flights causing you guys to go into the tourney with 1 loss that's amazing to go thru the losers bracket and win it.
Aug. 5, 2010
MaverickAH
59 posts
Why would it seem to be amazing???

The goal of every single sporting contest that I can think of is not, "to be as good as". It's, "to be better than"!

There's a certain segment that's just not going to settle for using a bat that's as hot as what everyone else is using. They want an edge...... They want hotter...... That's how it always begins. That's how it began for the younger crowd & how it's begun in the senior's.

To use the earlier traffic analogy:

Most of us do speed at one point or another. Sometimes it's done just to keep up with the flow of traffic.
Aug. 5, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
And sometimes you speed to get ahead.
Aug. 5, 2010
stick8
1295 posts
And sometimes you speed so you can make your game on time.
Aug. 5, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
einstein
Men's 50
2250 posts
That's amazing that any senior
would shave or end-load a bat
as hot as senior bats are
but I'm sure it's being done
by a VERY few people for whom we have to develop a system to discourage
which is not in place now.
Having significant regulations and adhering to them is key to grounding
and securing the efforts and energy
of any community.
I made an Ultra 2 more endloaded
a while ago by taking the pin out
and pouring some plastic into the head
but I only used the bat in BP.
Maybe these guys will do the same
and interestingly,
even though it felt better
being more endloaded
it didn't really hit any better
than my regular Ultra 2.

yeah right,
well must be like sammy sosa when his bp bat got into a game.just used the bat to impress the girlies before the game.didn't mean to hit it in a game.
yeah right.
Aug. 5, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Keep up the good work, Robert.
Aug. 6, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
and your point is??
your the one who said i cheat,you started the crap,now you go and post that you have used the cheater bat,not i.
your just like a sleazy politician trying to win an election by throwing as much crap out there with no facts,hoping something will stick, and even if it doesn't, hoping that it will distract his opponent,so he can slide in for the win.problem is most of the voters will see thru the sleazeball.
Aug. 6, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
In the middle of a fight, Robert,
it doesn't matter which punch
or who through a low blow first
that causes escalation.
You don't use cheater bats
and I don't.
So there, we're even.
But more importantly, get offa me.
I don't care that we disagree about bats
and balls and even what our game
should look like.
But disrespect is altogether different
and creates it's own rules and dynamics.
You're OK, Robert
as OK as me
or anyone else who plays softball
or walks the planet.
We can argue and disagree
but we can't fundamentally disrespect
one another.
Just like a bat/ball combo
that's not lively enough,
it will never work.


Aug. 6, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Joe please tell me you were kidding about the guy from Balco being a hero to you. The guy is a drug dealer plain and simple. What more would or could you expect from a criminal other then denial or silence. Silence being one of the Miranda rights.
I am still having a hard time with why Jose Canseco hasnt been indicted for his admissions of supplying and injecting other players with illegal drugs.
Aug. 6, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
That Steroid thing is messed up
from top to bottom.
The witch hunting makes it a farce
and not to be take seriously.
Even Bonds trainer/friend is a lightweight in the whole of it
and because he won't flip/turn
on his friend/confidant,
yes, John, I respect that
when there's nothing but political
and racial BS storming around and parading as "do gooder" justice
looking for scapegoats and making points with their constituents.
Aug. 6, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
its not a witch hunt if what your doing is illegal.also not racist when they went after all users,Roger Clemons,Mark McGuire,andy petite mm they are not a minority.also don't believe your figure of 50%,when the list that was release said it had approx 100+ names,that surely is not 50%.where do you get all these facts that you just throw out there ??????
Aug. 6, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Joe my friend, if you are doing something that hurts others it isnt ok. Drug dealers, whether heroin or steroids, are hurting and killing people, that is legally and morally wrong.
The "Do Gooders" you refer to gave us back MLB, or at least something far closer then the Steroid era gave us.
If their constituents choose to see it as something they like so be it.
Barry Bonds would never have been in his current situation if he had simply told the truth. When you lie to a legal body as important as the Grand Jury you should expect justice. barry will hopefully learn something valuable from this experience. But with his huge ego maybe not.
Aug. 6, 2010
tattooball
620 posts
WOW drug dealers are now hero's. What has our country stooped to. We were once a proud nation of people that fought for the rights of the weak and poor. We have now become the weak and poor with the attitude if you can't beat them join them.

That has got to be the most screwed up logic I have ever heard, he's a hero, he a crimminal.
Aug. 6, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
yep what do expect from a me generation.
Aug. 6, 2010
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
einstein: never met you.
mad dog: played against you several times.(and were buddies)
Dirty: never met you.
taits: played against you several times.

Say and do what you want........believe me..there will always be cheaters..........in every sport.......there will be cheaters....we will "never" get away from the ones who cheat....NEVER !
LET'S MOVE ON AND PLAY BALL.

Bat's, ball's.....you name it and some one will find a way to cheat.........we will never be able to change this........PLAY BALL !
Aug. 6, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
#6 were.... i'm gonna go cry now
Aug. 6, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Nice to know some people are still readin' what I have to say.
Thanks, guys but as per usual
you miss the point, Bobby and Kev.
Sometimes the biggest lies and
wrongs are perpetrated by the government
and they can get away with just about
anything they want, sometimes.
Might doesn't make ANYTHING right,
does it?

Think the trial of Jesus or
killing 4 million civilians
in Viet Nam or
invading Iraq for reasons it knew
didn't exist or...
Cheating and wrongdoing
depend on people's interpretation
for character and intent.
That's why there's jury trials
and not judges handling the most
important conflicts in our society.
Truth lives in the hearts and minds
of us, the people for all that is
and is going on and so does the responsibility for all of it, too
I still believe.
Aug. 7, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Joe glossing over this issue by redirection isnt going to change it, Balco has been proven to be a supplier of illegal drugs, that is wrong, Barry Bonds has been proven a liar, period.
Truth is truth, it may live in our hearts and minds, but the real truth is still the ONLY truth regardless of what we may want.
In 1995 the Vietnamse government gave estimates of 1.2 to 2 million deaths during the entire conflict from 1957 to 1975. This is on both sides (North & South) and includes civilians.
Again Joe, wrong is wrong, cheating is cheating. If rules arent set by a ruling society you have anarchy, we know where that leads.
Aug. 7, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
There's a huge difference between
Old Testament, literal thinking,
eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth
and New Testament thinking,
one based on reason, love
understanding and truth, John.
Enormous, even. (Snagglepuss)
I guess the place society should be
on issues is somewhere in the middle
in beween "law and order" and true
understanding and recognition of the character of events.
The Steroid Era was an era where
the major forces had most everyone contributing, benefiting and involved
and criminalization of ANY ONE
should never have occurred.
Truth and facts are not necessarily
the same phenomenon, John.
That's why there's judges and juries
to help discern
what's truly going down.
I heard these 2 statements before
and I love 'em, both.
"If an eye for an eye
was the law of the land,
everyone would be blind".
and
was Jesus being truthful or merciful
when he said on the cross,
"Father, forgive them,
for they know not what they do".
I say, truthful.




Aug. 7, 2010
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
mad dog,
It says were buddies.not we were buddies.Good luck in Dallas.
Aug. 7, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
#6, I think mad dog read it right. He got a tear in his eye thinking he had at least ONE friend! LOL
Aug. 7, 2010
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
Omar , I forget, he does cry easy .
Aug. 7, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Jesus was also rumored to have said " My father why have you forsaken me " when he was on the cross. I can only choose to believe what is written or not, since I wasnt there to hear what was spoken. Were any of us?
In this case the law or jury is/are the people writing the bible. True? or not?
Aug. 7, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I think there's a good analogy, John.
law:Bible::truth:Jesus.
You going to be in Vegas?
Aug. 7, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
John, you got me going
in a good way.
One of my favorite learning stories
of Jesus was the one where they brought
a woman adulterer to him on the Sabaath
to find out what should be done.
There was a ton of traditional rules
involved including no work was to be done on the Sabaath but Jesus
didn't quote the Bible and the Law.
He asked her if she knew what
she had done was wrong and when
she said yes
he told her not to do it anymore.
That was it.
That's truth and justice and mercy
for me, John, all in one.
And not once were any of many applicable laws quoted or argued.
Aug. 7, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
einstein refers to a popular Bible story from the life of Jesus, but he got a few things wrong. First of all, there is no indication it was the Sabbath, so all of einstein’s references to working on the Sabbath and traditional rules about the Sabbath have no relevance here.

Second, it was a trap by Jesus’ enemies, not just a coincidence or normal “arrest”. The story says explicitly that she was “caught in the act of adultery” which means they observed the act and knew who the man was. They did not bring the man for judgment, just the woman.

Third, the Old Testament Law required capital punishment for adultery for both parties, not just the woman. Specifically, they wanted her stoned to death.

Fourth, the trap was that if Jesus approved the death penalty for her, he would be in trouble with the Roman occupation which reserved the right of capital punishment for itself. If he said not to stone her, he would be seen as not supporting the Law of the Old Testament.

His answer was brilliant. He quietly wrote something in the dust while the crowd of His enemies clamored for a judgment. Then He said, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” He meant ANY sin, not just the sin of adultery.

When the accusers realized what they would be professing by picking up a stone (that they were sinless which would draw a laugh from their neighbors who knew them well), they all slunk away, the oldest (and wisest) first.

Lastly, Jesus asked her if any one had condemned her. At this point, they had all left the scene, so she honestly replied, “No one, Sir.”

That is when Jesus said that He did not condemn her either, but neither did he condone what she had done, for he explicitly said she should “leave her life of sin” which indicates it was not her first offense and that her behavior was, in fact, sin.

So, congratulations to einstein for bringing in a Biblical reference. It was indeed a time of truth (adultery is sin and evil in God’s eyes); justice (He didn’t deny that the death penalty was a legitimate response); and mercy (He released her, evidently noting her remorse and repentance).

The final point that there was no quoting or arguing of applicable laws seems irrelevant to me.
Aug. 8, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
What a crock of intellectual fluff.
My word.
No wonder it's hard to get people to agree on anything when a defined
intellectual gets going.
Sheeesh.
It was about understanding and truth
being more meaningful than any man-made laws bent on controlling the masses.
What effluent rubbish, my good man.
Aug. 8, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
Truth=what is factual. Since this is entirely a story from the Bible, and only one gospel at that, perhaps einstein could show where it says it was on the Sabbath; where man-made laws entered in (Jesus accepted the Old Testament Law as God-given, not man-made); where he disagrees that it was a trap (the text says it was); and where Jesus condoned the sin, rather than rejecting it as sin.

Obviously, einstein must have learned this story as a child and has mixed up part of it. But I agreed with him that it was about truth, justice, and mercy. "Intellectual fluff" in einstein's eyes must mean truth that disagrees with his hazy memory of things. Truth is seldom described as "rubbish" except by the ignorant who want truth to mean whatever they think.
Aug. 8, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Truth has nothing to do with facts or stats.
Does it really matter that we would argue which gospel, Matthew, Mark,
Luke or John said it was on the Sabbath
or not?
That's the kind of debate your argument
produces, one that that has
NOTHING TO DO with what's TRULY going
down.
Sounds like we live in 2 different worlds, son.
Yours is full of facts and stats
to support any argument you want to make
and mine is full of meaning and truths
about life and for understanding,
learning and teaching about who we are
and need to be.
Aug. 8, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
damn i can give facts and stats but they are not truth's,how can this be.so all criminals are convicted with falsehoods
(facts).pro players use falsehoods to win titles(stats)such as batting titles,era's,rushing title for NFL,points for the NBA scoring crown,etc.all of these are example's of truth's,so how can they not be one and the same(truth,stats,facts).
Aug. 8, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
Hard for me to figure out where einstein is coming from. I state that the incident from Jesus' life is found only in the gospel of John. That's not an argument, it's the only truth there is.

I state that the Sabbath had nothing to do with this incident. That's not an argument where people can disagree, it's the only truth there is.

Before one can arrive at deeper truths, it is important to grasp the concept of truth. Truth is what is. Truth is what one can validate. Truth is what is known. Deeper truths can become more philosophical or theological, incapable to some degree of being validated, but if a person cannot accept simple truths, they will always be frustrated in a search for deeper truths. It isn't intellectual hair-splitting, it is building a foundation for knowledge and living.

The same holds true for softball to some degree. I state that one can throw farther by throwing off the opposite foot from one's hand. Some may argue that it isn't true, but observation makes it true. To discount it and continue to throw an outfield ball off the same foot (a la bocce ball) is to never reach one's potential.

I state that the ball will fly farther if one follows through on a swing. Some may argue that it goes farther by stopping the swing (like a bunt), but observation demonstrates the truth. To discount it and continue to swing a bat half way is to never reach one's potential.

Of course some stubborn would-be players can argue for their position, and even practice their approach, but they will likely not enjoy softball much (nor will their team) because they have a false foundation. Acknowledging the truth of facts helps one go on to find deeper truth and meaning. As in softball, as in life.
Aug. 8, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I hate to get into this kind of
stuff but here's what I just read
from one minister of the Bible.

"That is, the earliest Greek manuscripts, the earliest translations and the earliest church fathers all lack reference to this story. Furthermore, some manuscripts place it at other points within John (after 7:36, 7:44 or 21:25), others include it in the Gospel of Luke (placing it after Luke 21:38), and many manuscripts have marks that indicate the scribes "were aware that it lacked satisfactory credentials" (Metzger 1994:189). Furthermore, it contains many expressions that are more like those in the Synoptic Gospels than those in John.

He went on further to say that
they came to Jesus on the day of rest
which is Jewish Law was the Sabaath.

So much for the truth about where
the story comes from and what actually went down.

The point is
it has nothing to do with the specificity of the story or its stats.
It's the MEANING of the story
that truly counts
and who should we be commenting/to
on regarding any of this controversy?
Someone who's so interested in facts,
stats and truth that he doesn't/won't
tell us who he is????
C'mon, man.
Aug. 8, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Back to the cheating which was the topic of the thread,
we must set up and/or strengthen
the process of dealing with guys
shaving/loading/fixing bats
and not change, dumb down or in my opinion, destroy the game
we love to play.
If a ball doesn't consistently hit well
when center struck,
the game will eventually become
too tension producing, frustrating
and ultimately dissatisfying to enjoy.
Aug. 8, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
As to the passage from John, your source is correct that it may be a true story, but it is not in the oldest manuscripts and it probably was added later or incorrectly placed. You are the one who referenced it.

Touché concerning my anonymity. I am still content to be part of the vast majority on this site who choose to be anonymous.

As to cheating, we still agree that something must be in place to warn off cheaters. I'd hate to have a guy bounced for innocently using an altered bat because the penalties were not well thought through. And I have no desire to play with or against a deliberate cheater who would alter a bat and try to disguise it. Minimum of one year suspension, five years if flagrant, lifetime if repeated.
Aug. 9, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
Einstein-several times in this thread you have come out very strongly against the bat cheating in our game. I agree to the max on that. However, why do you come to the defense of Barry Bonds and other Roid Cheaters? They destroyed the, for lack of a better word, sanctity of all those homerun records. What fun we used to have when someone like Reggie Jackson had 33 hr's at the all star break and might threaten the 61 record, or the 60 that Ruth hit in 154 games.The papers would track by game-"Jackson is now 6 games ahead of Maris' pace', etc. That was fun. It was fun when Sosa and McGwire went after it, but now we find we were duped by cheaters. I was watching a lot of baseball during those years, as always, and was struck by the angle of the ball coming off the bat. Balls hit at a much higher angle that used to be outs were now upper deck blasts. We thought is was a juiced ball wound tighter for more distance. Now we know it wasn't the ball that was juiced. Einstein-cheaters DO need to be called on it-at every level, and not given a pass because they were a personal hero or had a sweet swing.
Aug. 9, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Great commentary and thoughts,
Webbie.
It's the witch hunting aspect of the reaction to the steroid era
that I can't stand.
It's the unfairness of singling out
one or 2 people to take the ride
for what most everyone else did
and was supporting that riles me.
And when these guys, like Clemens
and Barry Bonds go to defend themselves
my sense of justice and the meaning
of it all tells me that no one
should have been punished.
It's over and leave them alone.

It should just have been ended
like Selig tried/wanted to do
but money and politics got involved-
a deadly, dysfunctional combo
at anytime in our society.
And for the record, Omar,
the vast majority of posts on the site
are from identifiable sources.
The great majority of those
who frequent the site remains anonymous.
Aug. 9, 2010
tattooball
620 posts
Facts are not always useless. These numbers include the years from 1959 to 1975.


The Viet Cong and upon occasion the North Vietnamese Regulars would often wear civilian clothes. Civilians could thus be mistaken for a being a supporter of one side or the other and be shot. They were also sometimes killed simply for being caught up in a battle. South Vietnam suffered the majority of an estimated [9] 2,000,000 civilians killed this way[4] Rummel's review of the various data led to a mid-level estimate of 843,000 civilian deaths in both North and South Vietnam. The detailed Figures are not complete, but the mid-level R.J. Rummel estimates are that around 391,000 South Vietnamese civilians died. Another 643,000 died as the Communist North Vietnamese consolidated power. Rummel's low-level estimate was 361,000 South Vietnamese civilians and his high-estimate was 720,000.[10] Below is a loose outline of which forces caused these non-uniformed and civilian deaths. The Communist Vietnamese government in 1995 estimated that 2,000,000 Vietnamese civilians on both sides died in the conflict, but does not allocate these deaths between North and South Vietnam.[4] Rummel estimated (apart from the post 1975 communist power consolidation) that a low-level of 486,000 civilians died; the mid-level was 843,000, with a high level at 1,200,000
Aug. 9, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Kevin.
With all respect, any of the soldiers
who went believing in America and/or
doing what they 'thought' was right
during Viet Nam as now
were are/heroes FOR ALL TIME.
It was/is the politicians and their
ignorant assessments and self interest
that led us astray and are to blame.
And it's happening again.
There's much better ways of defending ourselves against criminals who want to hurt us than trying to take over
a whole region of the world,
turn whole
cultures/countries/regions/people
into our enemies
to keep them in line.
It's not working now, never will
and we'll suffer far longer into the future for our politicians'/leaders' ignorance and self interests
than if we were honest/truthful
instead of self interested
in trying to solve
our security problems in the world.
War's are for corrupt, insecure
and inept leaders and not for the people of any nation, at any time
unless in "pure" self defense.
People want/need peace, everywhere
and that would be a majority opinion.
Aug. 9, 2010
curveball
Men's 65
400 posts
Webbie, like me, you a stuck in another era! Baseball isn't like it used to be decades ago. Kids don't look forward to rising early to read the box scores. Life has moved to a much quicker pace, and baseball became part of entertainment, not the sport we knew and loved.
I'm not saying it's all for the bad, there are still some great matchups to watch. I'm still a fan, but look at it in a different light. The partisipants are far superior in athletic ability to the guys from our era. EVERYTHING has changed so much in our lifetimes; even in entertainment, doing whatever it could for the part of our buck it could take. Fake boobs, fake butts, face operations, drugs rampent in the movie industry for example. Not much real anymore! Steroids, not only by position players, but pitchers using to also get the edge. Management and owners alike knew of the problems. But, huge hitting was putting fans in the seats. Fans are still going, steriods hasn't hurt the gate, or the owners pocket books, they just put a cloud over the game for the purest.
Even in softball, we've lost some of our steriod pioneers to cancer deaths related to steriods. Guys were taking and didn't even know what strenghts or how often to take. Steriods invaded all phases of sports. Yet, all continues on.
Yes, life has changed Webbie. I still smile when thinking back to the era when I used to listen to those games on the radio, hoping to hear that crack of the bat when my team would hit a long one, and then get to relive the moment the next day reading the box score. Checking all the stats of my favorite players. Checking the HR race and that of the batting averages also. Those simple and wonderful times are gone, and won't return.
For me, our game isn't about bats and balls, it's not about progress in rules or regs, it's not about how many home runs per team, per inning, or per year, it's about playing and taking part with guys I love and admire. Winning is great, but frienship is what it's all about. Sometimes, because of how complex life has become, we forget to take time to stop and smell the roses.
Aug. 9, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
Sorry to be such a fact man, but once again einstein tries to bully his way to a conclusion. Here is repeated claim:

And for the record, Omar,
the vast majority of posts on the site
are from identifiable sources.
The great majority of those
who frequent the site remains anonymous.

Now is that the truth? I have challenged einstein repeatedly to do what I did—take the first 100 threads, look up all the names, and see how many are anonymous. My research showed 63% were anonymous and only 37% identified themselves. That is einstein's definition of a "vast majority"—37%!!

I did this a year ago, so right now I took the first 50 unique names on this site, starting from the top. Of those 50 names, 30 were anonymous! That's 60%. Again, einstein's "vast majority" is shown to be only 40%!

Maybe einstein thinks he knows all of these anonymous names, but I don't, and 99% of the readers of this site don't. By their own choice they remain anonymous to us. Maybe when an anonymous guy says "playing here in Texas", that identifies him for einstein?

The facts here are easily discerned. Anyone can do the same count that I did. Maybe einstein could take these first 50 unique names and give us the real names of the anonymous posters. To reach his "vast majority" he would have to identify at least 15 of those 30 anonymous posters. Can he do it? I think we know the answer to that.
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