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Discussion: ASA WORLD IN BURLINGTON

Posted Discussion
Sept. 14, 2010
Paco13
363 posts
ASA WORLD IN BURLINGTON
This was a great tourney however there was a team (Eagle Tile) that on my opinion was hitting shaved bats. This is my point all of them with the exception of their pitcher hit one of the two TPS voltages that they had. There were probably 20 ASA bats on their dug out, but only the voltage was swung. I know the voltage when broken in is nasty, but not to that level. I also heard that at 50AA few bats were confiscated...To Eagle tile great victory against us (ILA 50) and if your voltages were not shaved please accept my apology, but U know what U swung and if they were shave ashamed on you all that have to cheat to try to win plaque. I played 2nd base for ILA 50 I call it the way I see it, if nothing else the perception was there. I hope we get to play on a level field and will see a different outcome. I am out. PR NINJA here.
Sept. 14, 2010
bucs15
19 posts
Paco13 right on,played in 6 games over that weekend saw 2 home runs hit against us both with the voltage and yes entire team swung that bat.Shaved or just hot we as a team can't compete using the standard ASA bats we were swinging.I believe Dus-Tex won they also were the only other team I saw hitting bombs.We as a team made the decision not to play anymore ASA.Been playing this sport 33 years and in the last 5 years can't believe the amount of guys at all levels that will alter their bats just to win a Plaque.Good luck to all teams the rest of the year, now we get back to bats were we are all equel
Sept. 14, 2010
JGogo
Men's 65
16 posts
I heard in parts of the country that tournaments are being run where the association running the tournament is providing the bats for the teams. Each team has the use of one of several bats provided. This would eliminate shaving, rolling and all other things that are going on. It is a good idea but the teams that cheat may not attend. I have played in several tournaments where the majority of batters used the same bat. On our team, each guy has his own bat and nobody else uses them because if you break it, you but it!!!
Sept. 14, 2010
gary c
411 posts
If they did cheat they should be banned from league and tournament play for life.
Sept. 14, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
That's because
they're dumbing down the balls.
If they leave in a good bat/ball combo
then they can move to bust cheaters
and order and fun will be restored.
You have to have regulations about bats
and you HAVE to enforce them.
Period.
This panacea of dumb down the ball
will kill softball dead, is ill thought
and contrived and will NEVER work
or be endorsed by the players.
NEVER.
Lively bats and balls
is the only way competitive softball
was meant to be played.
Everything else is minority, ignorance
or self interest talking.

Sept. 15, 2010
DoubleL10
Men's 65
811 posts
I've protested the use of illegal bats and crummy balls by not attending either ASA or USSSA nationals. Haven't gone in 7 years and don't miss them. I see enough doctored bats playing league - I don't need to see them in Senior tournaments as well!
Sept. 15, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
And while we're on the subject
rolled bats aren't/shouldn't be illegal.
I hit telephone poles with mine to soften them up and rolling is just a better/smarter way to get a bat
to loosen up and flex better making it last longer and work better.
Bat altering that needs recognition
and regulation is end loading/shaving/shortening/elongating/painting over/
sleeving.
I know many guys who roll bats
and even as a pitcher, don't care.
I/we don't consider it cheating
though "technically" it might be
thought of as such especially by those
pushing the panacea ball,
the one that will lead us
out of bondage and to a kindler,
gentler dumber game.
We need leadership and proper effective
regulation is softball as in the rest of society or we'll stay in danger
of panacea, abandonment and rebellion.

Sept. 15, 2010
gary c
411 posts
How can someone condone cheating? If you play with guys who cheat and don't call them out you have nothing to complain about.
If you don't want to play in ASA tournaments you have every right to and I don't blame you if you know guys are cheating.If the officials aren't
doing anything about it then that is there fault they are losing players. WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE WORLD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SOFTBALL please stay on subject.
Sept. 15, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Who defines meaningful cheating?
Responsible people, that's who.
I define cheating and don't necessarily take or believe what others might try or want to decide for me.
How can you say what's going on in the world has nothing to do with softball.
Really?
Softball is not part of the world?
Deregulated mess that has become our society has no bearing on softball,
our tournaments and our community?
For real?
Sept. 15, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
paco,bucs; the voltage is that good,its one of the bats by tps that has flown under the radar.you go to ebay and you can't find them under $400 now,bat ran just over $200 when it first came out.

well cheater joey boy way to finally admit it.by all assoc's rules doing anything to a bat other than standard bp is consider illegal,so maybe you should rethink what you are doing.rolling and beating a bat against poles or using a mallet, enlarges the sweet spot more than regular bp.

oh how can keeping hot bats and balls deter cheating,it can't,in fact it does more to have people cheat than not,the 52-275 classic+ ball doesn't help the cheaters,well lets put it this way,you get no better result from cheating than using a stock bat with this ball.

want to stop the results of the cheaters,use the 52-275 ball.

garyc,i'm with you,i see them i call them out,i have gone even so far as not to pitch to them,just throw them 4 balls that are not even close to being hittable.when they ask,i tell them to come to the plate clean and maybe i'll let them play.
Sept. 15, 2010
gary c
411 posts
Way to go mad dog.If softball is part of the world it's the toy department. Some people think it is an important part of society if that's so then I understand why they think cheating is OK. Some think rules are a bad thing unless they agree with them. That is a sign of a small mind.Keep up the good work mad dog and if you pitch to you know check his bat.
Sept. 15, 2010
Omar Khayyam
984 posts
Paco's post is disturbing in that bat cheating has possibly come to senior softball. At the bottom, cheating is a character issue, and it is discouraging that our society has come to this point.

I'm also bothered by einstein's confession of bat-altering, particularly if mad dog is right and the result is to expand the sweet spot (in other words, cheating). I have lost some respect for einstein since he doesn't see this as cheating because it is HIS cheating.

As usual, his analysis is wrong. My point all along is "where does the hot bat stop?" These bats weren't available ten years ago and senior softball was fun and competitive already with the equipment of the day. Then came the Miken, particularly the now banned original Ultra.

Why stop at 1.20? Why not hotter? Why not a bat where even Mickey Mouse can hit 'em out? Sure enough, einstein and others are now trying to make the senior bat even hotter.

It still gets back to character. Those who are willing to cheat will cheat any way they can. Those who won't compromise their character will use legal bats. Moving toward livelier bats and balls seems to tempt the weaker consciences: "we just need to do it to compete."

All very sad.
Sept. 15, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You guys/gals miss the point,
again as usual.
True cheating needs to be meaningfully defined and regulated in softball
or any society.
What some assholes on some board
say is cheating for any variety of reasons and self interests
and what the body/most
of us say is cheating is not necessarily
the same thing.

Let's use an example.
It's against the law in California
to move when anyone is in a cross-walk.
The law was/is too literal as any driver in any city will tell you.
It doesn't work and is technically illegal to move when people are off
the curb but we all do it, safely
else we'd stay at one intersection
for 10 minutes waiting to make a turn.
There's millions of examples of the same thing in any society at any level
and at any time.

Politicians and not players or fans or admins wanted steroid use in baseball
prosecuted to make themselves look
important and "on the job" and involved
while they steal millions and lock us
into economic exile and war.
I wouldn't/don't support anything "legal" associated with them or that era.
So, yes.
Bat cheating needs to be meaningfully defined and regulated as I have said
many times before and I don't care or think that beating a bat with another bat or post or rolling a bat is done
to break it in because it will break in eventually just by hitting it giving
no player an advantage over another.
And yes,
I decide what is right and wrong for me
to follow and do both in softball and in life, first, last and always.
Don't you?

Sept. 15, 2010
gary c
411 posts
ASSHOLE that's what people call guys like Barry Bonds a cheater and what makes it sad he didn't need to but his character was so weak he thought it was OK.You decide what is right or wrong a childish attitude I must say.You have just told everyone YOU ARE A CHEATER.If you think you don't have to play by the rules than you should form the nocal cheater league then you can have no rules and see how that works out . Why the name calling that shows a lack of character oh that's right you have none when your a cheater.
Sept. 15, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
mmmm... me thinks the assoc's have ruled that rolling,beating the bat with something other than taking bp and such stuff is cheating,not us on the board,it is in their rules.if you don't like them,don't play.put the work in to break in a bat(BP),don't cheat to do it.
oh by the way if you roll into the cross walk while there is a pedestrian there you should get a ticket.
why is it you think the rules don't apply to you.if you think i'm an asshole b/c i want the game cleaned up then so be it,play by the rules and there is no problem.i hope since you have admitted to cheating that ssusa will take appropriate action against you and your cheating ways.
Sept. 15, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Gary C.
You said you're in the midwest.
Are you sure that's true?
Care to comment?

Dog.
You're gonna say anything about bat cheating/painting/fixing
to anyone?
What's your orientation/history
on the subject that qualifies you
you to be saying anything to anyone?

Listen boys/girls.
Breaking in bats is what we've been doing since bats were made.
For most to all of senior ball
broken in bats, rolled, thumped,
hit or stomped on are not an issue.
I know a player who backs his car up
over the bat to break it in.
It's the same bat with the same capacity that is marketed as being/getting very hot when broken in
and hotter till it explodes.
It's much ado about nothing
and the hobgoblin of self interested
ignorant, and/or small minded people.
Most players don't care one way
or another because it's a matter
of little or no real consequence.
So what if it's a RULE.
This rule is ill gotten, bogus,
created by self interest
and doesn't make the playing field
meaningfully more dangerous or
unfair like bat shaving, bat painting,
bat loading or lengthening/shortening.

I don't obey unfair or arbitrary laws
I don't believe are just.
Might doesn't make right for me.
Maybe for some but not for me.


Sept. 15, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
To my knowledge, sir or madam
Barry Bonds has not been convicted of anything nor is likely to be.
A lot of people think it's because
he's black and lots of white guys
don't want/like the home run king,
best hitter of all time
to be a black guy.
What do you think, world traveler?
What's your view and history
on the subject of racism as applied
to sports figures?
Sept. 15, 2010
Omar Khayyam
984 posts
Now einstein is scaring me! I wouldn't want to be a pedestrian in San Francisco with people like einstein saying "I don't obey unfair or arbitrary laws"!

Most traffic laws are arbitrary. They are intended to bring some consistency and safety to what would be a chaotic situation (ever drive in the Philippines?). They are not moral laws. They are changed frequently in response to changing situations (think of the speed limit laws over 30 years, for example).

But in California, a pedestrian has a right to expect he is safe when in a crosswalk and not walking against a red light. Not if einstein is cruising down the road! HE will decide what laws to obey, never mind the opinion of his neighbors or the traffic police. I suppose if he thinks he can safely weave in and out of freeway traffic at 80mph, he will do that as well.

But back to cheating. Cheating is not necessarily the same as obeying or disobeying traffic laws. To cheat in sports is to give oneself (or team) an advantage that others don't have. The illegal bat, the hot ball tossed in when your team is at bat, the young player whose age is lied about to play on an older team—these are all cheating, and I don't think einstein condones them (or at least he didn't unless mad dog is right about expanding the sweet spot).

We already know the rules...and what cheating is. Let's start suspending or banning cheaters. Lie about your age? Banned for 5 years. Alter and use a bat? Banned for 10 years. Toss in a hot ball for your team and yank it before the other team bats—1 year ban for the whole team. Your ideas on penalties?
Sept. 16, 2010
Paco13
363 posts
I did not accuse anybody; I just express my opinion of what I saw and the perception of perhaps them using shaved bats. It is rare that on a team everybody hits with the same bat, but possible. As I said before I know what the voltage can do one of our 50 major players swings one and it hit almost like a senior bat and told me that it was not shave and I believe him. As I said if they were not cheating I apologize if they were then they have to live with it. I am done with the issue.
Sept. 16, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1956 posts
It's very sad when we have reached the point where the suggestion of tournaments providing bats for players because they cannot be trusted to have legal bats is even being talked about. Freezing softballs, microwaving softballs, misstamping softballs, repainting bats, shaving, rolling, etc., etc. In a way it is a microcosm of our society. If we can't have integrity in the games we play, how can we have integrity in the eyes of the world.
Einstein, I'm also disappointed you brought race into the Barry Bonds discussion. Last time I looked Hank Aaron had a very deep tan and nobody is talking about him.

Guys, I think I am done blogging here-this has gone way beyond the fun I have had debating views. It's like politics-if you are not diehard Republican or Democrat, to the parties you do not exist, you are someone to be ridiculed because of your beliefs. See you all on the field-KC is next.
Sept. 16, 2010
gary c
411 posts
einstein I never said where I was from why are you so interested? When your wrong play the race card.I used Bonds because your from Frisco. The way you talk about this country you should see if they play softball in Cuba. Why must you call people names it's a sign of insecurity.
Sept. 16, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Not hardly sir or madam.
It's a sign of being fed up with BS
and ankle biters.
Let's to the issue, shall we.
I don't consider any way that a bat is broken in to be illegal.
Clear enough?
I would hazard that most of the guys
who play senior ball feel the same way.
We all break in our bats,
knowing they get hotter all the time.
It's why we like 'em.
"Game bats" we call 'em.
Much ado about nothing really
the hobgoblin of self interested
and/or little minds.
We need meaningful definition
and execution of bat cheating rules
in softball to regulate it
so we can maintain order and have fun.
Webbie.
We don't want to lose guys like you
but meaningful bat cheating,
what/who's in/out is an important
to the on-going development of our game.
And yes, softball is a microcosm
of the larger society whether we like it or not and lots of stuff relates
directly/indirectly for anyone to see
and make comments.
If/as we stay or keep things divided and fail to connect the dots
we can fall prey
to counterproductive decisions
that will disaffect us for all time
in both softball and the larger society.
I think the time for meaningful conflict and dialogue is now
and maybe we can create solutions
that will be positive and inclusive
as we attempt to move on down the road
better together and not have to throw
the baby out with the bathwater
by dumbing/slowing down the whole game
which will never work either in competitive senior
or the open game.

Sept. 16, 2010
gary c
411 posts
You want to know what city I live in I want to know what planet you live on. BLA BLA BLA like I said before this is the toy department of life it's fun for most of us but to you it's your life what a sad commentary for someone. You make excuses for cheating rules are rules just because you don't like them that doesn't mean that you don't have to play by them. It tells us a lot about your moral fiber that you think it's OK to cheat if you don't agree with the rules.
Sept. 16, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Some of us are both capable and need
to define morality for ourselves
sir or madam and some of us can't/don't.
You just go bleeting along with the anything/everything on your way
to the slaughter house
just as long as you're warm
and stay in the middle of the pack.
All those warm cheeks to feel and lock you in, must feel good at times but what about the smell, sir or madam.
Can you tell us about the smell?
Never to late to stand up and be a man (or woman) and dare to do/speak
the right or truthful thing
irrespective of the consequences,
whether in softball or not.
Who's without character, sir or madam,
the shepherd or the sheep?
Sept. 16, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
And you don't even have the character
to identify yourself.
What a joke.
I say your from California and pretty close by.
What do you say?
It's never too late to stand up
and be a man (or woman).
Sept. 16, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
paco,we know you didn't accused anyone just ask about the voltages.as you know from your buddy they are hot,(one model not tho 78v)but when a team has a bat that is better than the others they have than yes most all will use the better bat,if the owner lets them.


love when a cheater comes on this board to try and condone his cheating ways.the assoc's make the rules and thats that,abide by them or play someplace else.

joey boy my orientation is straight,i like girls,what about you.my history is as good as yours,except i don't cheat.

garyc never reveal your info to this clown,as it will bring nothing but headaches to you.ask dirty about that,and myself.he believes that if he says it,it is what everyone wants and believes in,yeah right.
Sept. 16, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Let me put my 2 cents (which is now only worth .78 cents)

Keep up this mud slinging and we will have yet another thread closed.
Both points have been made, give it a rest.
Get back to the issue at hand. How can/do we stop the cheaters? Or can we?
Sept. 16, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
E4/E6,if you will look thru the thread you'll see where the mud gets to be slung,the usual perpetrator.also i think that is what this person wants when he can't get his way(thread shut down).

as for the cheating,you'll never stop them,unless you make it so that they receive no more performance enhancement than a regular stock bat will give you.with that being said the 52-275 ball does that.no bat regardless of what has been done to it will out perform each other.
yes we can say ban them but someone else will just fill their shoes and step in.maybe the company's can do something with the bats,easton has tried by making their bat change color if rolled,shaved and such.
Sept. 16, 2010
gary c
411 posts
Einstein why do you need to know my name and where I am from? Why would I want to know someone like you .Your posts tells the story of what you are a CHEATER who thinks that rules are not meant for him.
E46/E6 you are right but read Joey's posts anytime you post something he disagrees he attacks it his hard not to defend one's self.
Sept. 16, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Gary C I have had more discussions with Joe then many who post here and I agree he can be a bit much sometimes, well most of the time. But to play his game with name calling only ends a good thread and puts an end to some good discussions.
I have managed to figure out how to defend and still mantain my integrity.
To that end I wish you good luck.
You will find Joe to be as passionate about Senior Softball as anyone who posts here. He just has a different idea about whats best for our game when compared to many others who also play.
Sept. 16, 2010
gary c
411 posts
E4/E6, Mad Dog I started a new thread please read and give your thoughts
thanks,gary c
Sept. 16, 2010
duke1953
Men's 50
16 posts
ok paco here we go I am the owner and coach of eagle tile and i will not have my name dragged down due to someone who cant take losing.I was the pitcher you are talking about and the voltage is my bat i just dont like it because it is end loaded. yes the bat was hot and that is because we play asa ball here and it was swung for two months so it would be broke in for this tournament.i was also told the bat is outlawed for next year so i told the guys swing it till it breaks. which it did against carolina. i still have the bat and will bring it to virginia beach for you and anyone else to inspect and if you were that sure about the bat you could have had it tested during the game as they had equipment at the park to test it. i do not like to be accused of something without proof and i dont want my team and company name put out there for cheating, so i will see you in virginia beach and just remember your team has not beat us in three years with whatever bats are used.
Sept. 16, 2010
gary c
411 posts
Duke1953,
Just a question do you think the results would have been different if you were allowed to use just ASA league bats?
PS I don't blame you for being upset if someone thinks your cheating they should call you out at the time not when you can't prove them wrong.
Sept. 16, 2010
birdie
Men's 60
676 posts
gary c, It was an asa tourney so only ASA bats are used. So the results would not be different. The tourney has seen a drop in attendance over the years as best as I can tell. bad balls and asa bats not a good combination. There were only 8 60 teams 2AA 4 AAA and 2 major and 0 major plus. 50 major only had 2 teams. The 55 and 50 were a little better represent. Thanks Harry
Sept. 16, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
DUKE DON'T BELIEVE ABOUT THE BANNING JUST YET,YOU KNOW HOW RUMORS CAN GET STARTED.YOU ARE RIGHT ON THAT BAT BEING HOT.

GARY,LIKE BIRDIE SAID IT WAS A ASA TOURNEY.

BIRDIE THE ASA BALL IS NOW THE HOTTEST ONE GOING(44-375)MOST OF THE OTHER ASSOC'S (EXCEPT SENIORS)ARE GOING TO THE 40-300(CLASSIC M) OR 52-275(CLASSIC +).THE PLUS SEEMS TO BE THE CHOICE,UNLESS YOUR ARE IN A COLD CLIMATE,AS IT IS NOT AFFECTED BY HEAT.
Sept. 17, 2010
Paco13
363 posts
Duke, Again I did not accused U or UR team of anything other than the perception...and I did apologize just in case that I was wrong for stating what seemed at the time a weird situation. So again I was wrong so please accept my apology for any confusion that my comments may have caused. Your explanation is acceptable and very reasonable I have no issues with it. However, as far as U beating them 3 years on a row more power to U. I was a pick up for that tourney, until then I was playing 50 Major with Metro Stars...not sure if I am even playing at the beach so far nobody has called my agent LMBO. Good luck and again I did not mean to offend U or UR team, put you on the other team shoes and the thought will at least cross UR mind...Oh if I play against U guys stay away from me on defense it is my Island and nobody gets through without my permission. LOL. Paco Island; PR NINJA out.
Sept. 17, 2010
vision33
3 posts
What color was the voltage they were using
Sept. 17, 2010
Swampy
24 posts
I am playing in a tournament this weekend in which Easton is supplying the bats and no other bats are to be used. This will be my first experience in a tournament of this type. The information relayed to me is that each field will be supplied bats of various weights. Should be interesting!
Since this is a discussion/message board, my opinion is that the bat concern for the ASA tournament could have been handled more tactfully. If the opportunity to test bats were available, the issue could have been handled then, instead of throwing a team under the bus on the message board. If the bat passed, issued answered! If not, then if the writer felt the need to pass on the information along to everyone else, the facts would be there to validate the statement. The speculation will now follow the team to other tournaments.
Einstein gets out there, but I do think that how we play, act, or perceive the rules or softball may be a microcosm of how our lives operate within the confines of our work or community.
Sept. 17, 2010
duke1953
Men's 50
16 posts
it was the original voltage
Sept. 17, 2010
mark3a
2 posts
It was a red Voltage.

I agree that if there is a decline in the number of teams, the reason is the bat/ball combination. I understand using the ASA bats. But, the balls were awful. An AD Starr Spirit? Really? In a National Championship?
Sept. 17, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
there are 2 voltages,73v=hot one,78v=not so good.
Sept. 18, 2010
Mr. Manassas
225 posts
That original Voltage was sold at Dick's for $99 and was found out to be "hot" after the fact.
Sept. 18, 2010
Stretch14
Men's 50
185 posts
Barry Bonds didn't need to cheat. How do you think he got so big? Drinking milk? Wake up.
Sept. 18, 2010
duke1953
Men's 50
16 posts
yep but mine was 395 still in the wrapper .one of my players found 4 in pennslyvannia a year ago and kept one and sold the others for 300 a piece.
Sept. 20, 2010
titanhd
Men's 50
324 posts
SWAMPY. The bat failing the best test wouldn't be a fact that is/was shaved. Most well broken in bats will fail the current ASA test.
Sept. 20, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
yes you are right titan,and it doesn't take that many swings to get them to fail even tho asa bats will take more than the other assoc's,especially usssa and senior bats.
Sept. 20, 2010
stick8
1261 posts
Mad Dog, I swing the original Voltage. TPS forgot to put an inside sleeve on the first batch and didn't realize what they had. A guy I hit with had one and asked me to try it. I immediately traded a new Toxic for it. I think the Voltage swings better than any senior bat.
Sept. 20, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
ah,i never did get the full story,just knew they were hotter than the next generation(78v).
Sept. 21, 2010
stick8
1261 posts
The nice thing is it's legal for all USSSA, ASA, NSA in addition to senior ball. I can't tell you how many offers I've had from the young guys I play with locally but my asking price is $500,000.
Sept. 21, 2010
stick8
1261 posts
The nice thing is it's legal for all USSSA, ASA, NSA in addition to senior ball. I can't tell you how many offers I've had from the young guys I play with locally but my asking price is $500,000.
Jan. 8, 2011
titanhd
Men's 50
324 posts
Stick. ASA has banned the Voltage.You may be able to get them for a lot less than 500.00 now.
Jan. 9, 2011
stick8
1261 posts
I did read about that Titanhd. I'm not too sure there still any significant ASA in Michigan anywhere. AFAIK, it's still legal in usssa, nsa and of course senior ball. Happy New Year to you and yours
Jan. 12, 2011
Mario
Men's 50
367 posts
Cheating is far more rampant in senior ball than anyone could ever imagine. I have been shocked to find out what guys are doing to bats that are already hot. This will never quit. They will always find ways to cheat. I'm just glad I can go to bed at night knowing that I have busted my but to get to where I am, and that cheating and cheaters will always be around.
Jan. 12, 2011
kbl
Men's 60
527 posts
Mario--do you see more cheating when playing in senior ASA or senior tournaments where a player can use any bat he wants to? i am a singles hitter and i use a Freak(U-trip bat) gets through the infield fast enough for me...ken
Jan. 12, 2011
Mario
Men's 50
367 posts
kbl - We have not played in Senior ASA but in all the others there is cheating going on.
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