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Discussion: What a way to go out!

Posted Discussion
Oct. 29, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
725 posts
What a way to go out!
To All,

I want to begin this message by saying, that I always try to follow the rules and try to point out where they are not followed for some. That is the nice thing about this board. Sometimes I write things that some do not like and many do like, but I always try to give the proper point of view(in my opinion), regardless of who it effects. Sometimes I feel like I am on the Southwest website with the "ding", because when I say something that needs further clarification from SSUSA or someone agrees or disagrees with me at SSUSA, I get an email from SSUSA with an explanation, sometimes a warning, and sometimes a right on; before I even sign off. LOL! That is good to know that we are monitored so well. I mean that seriously. I do enjoy their feedbacks. I should not get one this time, but I am hearing a lot of "dings" going off right now. I have even received numerous emails from players on this board, and always a pleasure to discuss issues via an email and even over the phone. Thanks to all!

In this message, I am only going to talk about our team, not other teams that should be moved up or down from whatever division. As many of you know, Double Edge just won the Phoenix Worlds in the 60 Major division. We are destined to be placed into the 60 Major Plus division in November some time. This is the correct thing to do and our team is in complete agreement. It was incredible that we won, and what a time to peak. We had several hurt players gutting it out, and the entire team playing at a higher level than ever before, despite injuries or level of ability. You guys on my team know who you are, and you were all outstanding in your efforts and attitudes, and I was honored to play softball with each and every one of you.

Our future is not set in stone, but it would be my opinion from talking with several players on my team, that Double Edge is disbanded. There are several reasons for this decision. I will state a few of them. Simply put, we are not a Major Plus team by any stretch, but we have earned the right to be placed in the Major Plus division, because of our showing in Phoenix, rules are rules. We also reminded ourselves of the Major Plus teams complaining about the lack of teams to play. If GSF folds because of this bordering rule, Double Edge would be the only team listed in Southern California as a 60 Major Plus team. Lastly, of our 4 injured players, one is recovered, 3 are not. Of the 3, one is scheduling surgery next month, another needs to schedule surgery and probably will not, and the last one is up in the air right now till more tests are taken. This is probably a definite decision here, as some players are already testing the waters and looking for other teams. I do not see this changing at this time.

In conclusion, we plan on finishing out the year by attending Donnie's end of the year tournament year in the December Hemet tournament in the 60 Majors, if we can get enough players to field a team. Lastly, we are trying to go to the TOC in February, and have time for players to get better for that one.

It was a fun year and look forward to seeing you all out there in the future.
Have a safe and Happy Thanksgiving!

Andy Smith,
Double Edge,
60 Major

Oct. 29, 2010
DoubleL10
Men's 65
834 posts
Andy, As always, a well-written and concise post! I've played against your team with Texas 60s and seen you guys play excellent ball in Phoenix. I share your opinion that you have a very good team but not what is considered a true Major plus team. You guys jelled at just the right time. If I had to pick a team out of the tourney that I thought should be Major Plus it would be Master Collision due to the Major Plus power and defense they played (at least when they played us!). We've played them 3 times this year and have yet to beat them. I think ours is a good Major team but we also have yet to beat the Wild Bunch either. I guess the problem with getting hot at the right time is being made to play up a level until you get your brains beat in enough to get moved back down. I've been in your postion before and it's very hard to get moved back down once you obtain the Major Plus stigma.

Best of luck wherever you land in 2011!

Larry Lopez
Texas 60s Major
Oct. 29, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
725 posts
Thanks Larry,

I never got to play when we met in the LVSSA tournament. I was hoping to get a chance in Phoenix. I was still injured in Vegas, so I just coached the team that weekend. Phoenix was my first tournament back in about 2 1/2 months. I was about 85% back in Phoenix, and now I am at 100%, whatever that may be. LOL! I was out with a very sore Achilles tendon. Had to play in tennis shoes in Phoenix. You guys have a great team. We played you twice in Vegas, and lost both times, including being run-ruled in the last game. Look forward to seeing out there in the future, as I look for another team to play with next season. We decided we are not into getting our brains beat to death either. Actually, the 60 Major division turned out to be quite an evenly matched division of teams, where anyone could have defeated any team at any given time. It is was it is. Take care and good luck to you.

Andy Smith,
Double Edge,
60 Major
Oct. 29, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
725 posts
Opps! I meant to say, "it is what it is" LOL!

Andy
Oct. 30, 2010
B-DUB
Men's 50
29 posts
Duke,,,,

As a brand new 52 year old and yet to find or build a team to play senior ball, your article is very inciteful. It's nice to read a positive message with a little unfair truth thrown in. But rules are rules and you have to start somewhere. I have a plane voucher that needs to be used so I thought I would fly down from Michigan to Ft. Meyers and watch to see what it takes to win a Winter National. And just maybe make a contact with a team playing there. Congrats on your Phoenix win!
Buck
Oct. 30, 2010
curty
Men's 60
108 posts
My team, baystate bombers+,played 60 major all year without winning anything, but that is where we belong after being moved up from AAA. We didn't think we belonged there especially being from Massachusetts where the season is short, but decided to try it out and see. we didn't win very much, but have enjoyed the experience. phoenix was a disappointment for us,as the West Coast teams were very strong and we were not as competitive as we had hoped, but we will continue to play.I,m a little surprised that such a quality team would not accept the challenge of a higher division and thereby test themselves. Just my thoughts.
Oct. 30, 2010
curveball
Men's 65
404 posts
What a great way to go out for sure!!! You guys played fantastically.
If you are planning on playing one last tournament in Dec, wouldn't that be in Major+? Thought tourneys after the Winter Worlds were 2011 tourneys. You guys may change your minds if you woop on the Major+ teams in that last tournament.
Oct. 30, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
725 posts
Curveball,

The December tourney is another organization's year-end World tournament, where we started out as a Major team. Also, every organzation has there own ratings of teams, and does not always follow the SSUSA ratings. They can make their own evaluations of a team, just like LVSSA rates many teams differently as well.

B-DUB,

I already explained some of our reasons, and do not care to take that any further. Major Plus is quite different than Major, AND THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH TEAMS TO PLAY TO MAKE IT WORTHWHILE TO SPEND A LOT OF TIME AND MONEY DOING SO. That's all!! LOL!!

Andy Smith,
Double Edge,
60 Major
Oct. 30, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
725 posts
B-DUB,

I meant to address my last comment to Curty.

You will see some of the best teams in the TOC at Florida. You should not be disappointed.

Andy Smoth,
Double Edge,
60 Major
Oct. 31, 2010
curveball
Men's 65
404 posts
Duke, I misunderstood the way the other organization rated their teams. I knew they were using 2011 rosters, assumed teams that won world Championships at the biggest of the worlds, 2010 SSUSA, would play at their new level for 2011 in all other associations. You are correct about associations making their own evaluations, but I don't recall any of them (SPA or LVSSA) dropping the current SSUSA World Champion to a lower division. It may have happened, just don't recall it.
I thought it would be fun for your team to "strut their stuff" against the guys in your new division. If you were pulling the plug, ending on a victory against Major+ teams would have been frosting on the cake for you and the guys.
Oct. 31, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
725 posts
Curveball,

The December tourney is the last one that we will be able to play at the Major level. After that one, we will have to play Major Plus. Depending on what teams sign up, will determine who we play. We may be playing all 60 Major teams just like last year and spotting them 5 runs. Or 55 AAA/Major teams and once in a while 55 Major Plus teams if there are not enough to support playing 60 Major. Hopefully, we can stay in our own age bracket. All of this would be at Donnie's tournaments.

As of today, there are only 13 60 Major Plus teams. One up in Northern California and none in Southern California. Eventually, we will be the only one in Southern California. Omen/Omens/Old A's I heard are moving to 65's. I heard that GSF may be reforming as an Arizona team. Think about it, only 13 teams in our classification in the entire USA. That is one team per every 4 states. Makes no sense to travel to something like the Cal Cup for example, to play a best 2 out of 3. We could meet that team half way at an open park and do that, then have a BBQ for both.

We will stay together for several tournaments, and see how it goes, but mostly the smaller and less expensive ones.

Andy Smith,
Double Edge,
60 Major
Nov. 1, 2010
goforit
97 posts
Andy,

Your right - what a way to go out. Your team played great in Phoenix and deserved that championshp. It's a tough decision to break up but i understand the thinking behind that decision. I also play with a great bunch of guys on Master Collision and it would not be an easy decision to make if we were in your position. I believe you took that decision out of the equation by kicking our rearends in Phoenix. We had three guys over 65 on our team this year and two pushing 70, i'm not sure they would want to play Major Plus if we were in your position. Good luck in whatever direction you go next year, i would like to say it was always a pleasure playing your team this year but it wasen't -- you guys were tough.

John Giesler
Third Base
Master Collision
Nov. 1, 2010
CRUSADERVB
Men's 65
272 posts
GSF IS, AND WAS, AN ARIZONA TEAM FOR THE PAST 3 YEARS.
WE LOST BOB WOODROOF AS OUR SPONSOR AND BOB WILL BE HAVING HIP REPLACEMENT ON DEC. 6. WE'LL STILL HAVE OUR GSF GUYS MINUS A FEW. WE ARE SPONSORLESS AS OF TODAY. ANYONE WANT TO SPONSOR US!!?? WE'LL START IN MENIFEE IN JAN 2011, JUST LIKE WE HAVE ALWAYS DONE...NO MATTER WHO WE PLAY, WE HAVE FUN 24/7.....THAT'S WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT ANYWAY.
Nov. 1, 2010
Marv19
Men's 60
445 posts
Don't forget the SCSSA Has a tournament in January as well at the new Diamond Valley Sports Complex just 7 miles up the road!
Nov. 1, 2010
CRUSADERVB
Men's 65
272 posts
SORRY MARV......WE'LL OPT FOR YOURS. I GET ALL THOSE CALIFORNIA TOWNS MIXED UP, I'M NOT THAT BRIGHT!!
Nov. 1, 2010
JLD930
Men's 55
67 posts
Andy,
Whatever DE chooses to do all the best to you and your teammates.

Phoenix was another example that any good team can win on a given weekend and yes a number of teams were good enough to win in Phoenix. If you look through the double elimination scores nearly every team that finished well had a close call that could have send them to the losers bracket early. KC did a great job recovering from an early loss to come back and finish 2nd.

As John mentioned we (Master Collision) have had the same discussions that you have had. My concern is more the lack of teams in the M+. division. I have played there before and you end up seeing the same few teams every tournament. In my opinion there are not enough M+ teams to make that division viable (especially in the older age groups). I feel they need to combine the M and M+ divisions and play with Major rules. I know that is not popular with a lot of people and has been discussed here many times but I don't see any good alternatives.

Unfortunately whatever is done not every team in every division will be good enough to win a world tournament. If a player's primary objective is to win a ring, rather than just play to compete there will always be a lot of disappointment. When I was a youngster playing open ball for York Barbell very few teams went into a world tournament expecting to win unless you were Howard's, Campbells, Ken Sanders etc.(Larry L can relate) The ability to compete and occassionally beat one of the favored teams was what it was all about.

I have said it before and I will say it again; the ability to do what we do at our age is a blessing each time we step onto the field. I will continue to count those blessings wherever we play for as long as I can play.

Jack Davis #30 Master Collision
Nov. 1, 2010
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
andy i know what is like to go to a tourney without anyone in your div.it can go one of 2 ways,1) you play older guys that are a class up from you,2) or you have to play down an age group,not really fun,either way..

crusader sorry to hear about bob,hope everything goes well for him..
marv glad to hear that you guys are putting on more tourney's there.i played down there in 01-02(stoneage 50's M) and we could barely get 5 tourney's a year to go to.we had to resort to playing league against the kids in poway leagues to keep in ball playing shape.
do you know of a ken hawkins over there,he runs LPS(leisure play softball) tourneys,mostly in temecula and vista.
Nov. 1, 2010
Marv19
Men's 60
445 posts
Mad Dog we have 10 tournaments planned so far in 2011 with applications in to 3 other sites to fill out March and April if possible. We need you guys though as you're the life blood that keeps the SCSSA alive.

I don't know Ken Hawkins. I'd like to know who does his graphics. Being the graphic guy at the SCSSA I'm really impressed with his flyers.

This string is a bit perplexing to me. Maybe I'm dumb but even a half way decent team can be good or great on any given weekend. Does that mean because they have one good day or two that they get re-rated? This screams for regional directors to know their teams and be in charge of the rating system. It shouldn't be automatic IMO. Being a regional association we see a lot of the same teams over and over. We, well... Donnie would have a better idea of who is and who isn't. He's one of the best softball minds I have ever met. Maybe some of these broken up teams should consider playing in our regional events. We are trying real hard to make at least one event a month available to you guys if possible. Then you'd only have to argue with Donnie. :O) Just a thought.
Nov. 1, 2010
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
marv looks like you have a good thing going at this time,i'll try and get hold of ken and see if he can help ya out,i think he does his own tho.
i do wished i still lived over there,but texas is way cheaper to live on a retirement salary...
Nov. 1, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
725 posts
CRUSADERVB,

Thanks for the clarification and update. Someone from a 60 Major Plus team gave me that information,

John G and Jack D,

You guys were fun to play and great competition. Before we went out on the field against you guys in Phoenix, I looked over to one of my players and said what do they feed these guys. We do not have anybody that tall on our team. The first 2 innings, I thought you huys were going to crush us with all those line drives. I pitched one ball way off the plate and you still crushed it. Thank god you were older than us, and thanks for not hurting me too. I am sure we will see Master Collision out there next season. Look forward to playing a game with you guys again.

Mad dog,

You are right about the teams that we may play. I think at least half the time, we will also play the same 60 Major teams as last season, but spot them 5 runs in the smaller tournaments.

JLD930,

Jack, you are right on all points, especially the fact that they will not combine Major and Major Plus in the 60 division. Besides what you said about combining Major and Major Plus 60's, we should go to a 3 up rule on the HR's, and keep the Major Plus rankings, so that the Major teams can still get their 5 runs that they are entitled to every game. Only in the larger tournaments did we see other 60 Major teams. In the smaller tournaments last season, there are not enough 60 Major teams to play. We ended up playing 60 AAA teams most of the year and even some 60 AA teams. There is the same issue in both divisions.

Andy Smith,
Double Edge,
60 Major
Nov. 1, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
725 posts
Hey everyone,

I was looking at the ratings and we are shown as AAA. Just Kidding!! We have been rated Major Plus and no other teams to play in our age/level. Looks impressive but at the same time, quite boring!! LOL!!

Hey Tommy D,

Remember I said you had to sit 4 rows behind me and not allowed to talk to me at the manager's meeting when we became a Major team some years back. Well, now it is 8 rows. Just fooling with you Tommy, and it is always good to shoot the breeze with you. Now that I am a Major Plus player(yeah right!), I still cannot believe some Major Plus players in the past when I was playing AAA would not give me the time of day, when they found out that I was only a AAA player. What a bunch of stuck up snobs. Every age and level is as important as the other, and should never feel any less of a player regardless what division you play. At least I have not heard any of that garbage the last few years, since that incident.

Andy Smith,
Double Edge,
Major Plus
Nov. 1, 2010
DoubleL10
Men's 65
834 posts
Well, Duke, now that you guys are Major Plus, hopefully you won't give me the "attitude" LOL! Actually, I played Major Plus for several years and did not notice the treatment you mention. I've enjoyed BSing with guys at every level at which I've played regardless of the level at which they played. I've got good friends playing in AA all the way through M+.

I certainly don't envy you guys getting moved up even though you have a very good team. To me, you guys are the defintion of a Major team - very good hitters, not a lot of HR power and a very good defense. I'm just glad to be playing at the Major level now - until (or if) we win a big tournament. And for you guys on the West Coast, at least you do have some M+ teams to play out there (at least as it stands now).
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