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Online now: 3 members: Dj Thaniel, Rjoe, TABLE SETTER 11; 124 anonymousDiscussion: Fear the Beard
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| Nov. 2, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Fear the Beard Way to go San Francisco and the SF Giants for winning and supporting the World Champion of all baseball and doing it in stellar and convincing fashion. They say good pitching will beat good hitting and they were right. The whole squad was used to start/play like interchangeable parts which is a tough model to sell in any sport at any level. Bruce Boche, a much maligned manager for being too soft and lacking a killer instinct made all critical moves correctly from beginning to end including taking Lincecum out for the ninth, last night something I wouldn't have done. Well done and way to go, San Francisco. Champions of the world series. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | It's about time they won. Was a good series. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | Joe, Did you notice that the beard color doesn't match the hair color... He must use shoe polish or Loreal. lol |
| Nov. 2, 2010 gary c 418 posts | Even a blind pig picks up an acorn along the road . Lowest watched series in years because two lousy teams that only the people that live there care about. Enjoy because your pitching staff will be Yankees soon. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | There's a great back story for his beard and the color. Word is he was told he couldn't wear the orange shoes he wanted to wear even though they were true Giant orange because there's a team rule somewhere that says shoes have to be 80 per cent black. The Dragon, which what I call him didn't think well of their decision and grew and painted a beard that was 80 per cent black. What a guy and what a pitcher. I'd let him where Bermuda shorts. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | i don't know if it was the lowest rated series as far as being watch(haven't seen the tv ratings)but it was a series by the 2 lowest rated teams to ever play in a series,according to espn. that wilson is a richard,ever listen to him being interviewed.linecum(sp) is a pothead,its on record,what a team.... |
| Nov. 2, 2010 gary c 418 posts | When will the majors start using Mikens so they can have the same fun that the senior softball community has had think of a drug induced Barry Bonds hitting a hanging curve ball off the dome of some pitcher. Maybe he should drop down to triple A if he can't compete.Giants win the world series and pot is legal this could be a daily double for the Giants |
| Nov. 2, 2010 canIjack Men's 60 322 posts | San Francisco World Champions of Major League Baseball, Well its about time. Congrates to All you Northern Cal Bums, You don't have to cross that East Bay Bridge to look at a World Series trophy any more(Oakland), You have your own. Great, Great Pitching. Today I'm wearing my old SF Giants hat, just today and this ones for Bobby Bonds. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | canljack,i would do it for McCovey instead as he had the heartbreak of the snared line drive by richardson.... |
| Nov. 2, 2010 gary c 418 posts | Think of it another 57 years Giant fans can get loaded again. I hear Barry Bonds is holding. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Scotty. I played this weekend in Pleasanton and we had a great time. We used Baden Fire balls which is the recommended ball by NorCal for all their events, the weather held up and lots of guys were still buzzing about the Reebok bat. I hear a couple of companies will be coming out with senior bats for next year but it will be hard to beat the Reebok I swung a couple of weeks ago in San Francisco. Again, a very good bat. I'll be at the next Pleasanton tourney November 13 with some friends to finish up the 2010 season. Lively bats and balls, forever. And free defensive subbing is a great idea for senior ball. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 gary c 418 posts | Joey glad to hear the weather held up. I was worried isn't there a earthquake when the Giants get in the World Series. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Canard, That's mighty big of you giving us our props for being World Champs. But you're a big guy, inside and out, and that makes a lot of sense. Good luck the rest of the year. and hope to see you at the next one. You going to Vegas? |
| Nov. 2, 2010 gary c 418 posts | Frisco Joe I didn't know you were world champs this year I thought you lost. Belated congratulations I am impressed. WOW |
| Nov. 2, 2010 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | Einstein, If you play with Joe mays next time say hello to him for me. I don't see him here but do correspond with him. Perhaps Wilson should have gone with orange for his beard, lol. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | According to the "Dirty" theory, how can this be a WORLD Championship? were all countrys competing in a playoff? Congrats to all my Frisco friends, its about time! |
| Nov. 2, 2010 canIjack Men's 60 322 posts | Yea Joe, I'm looking forward to Las Vegas later this month, I've not played any Tourneys since the Black World in St. Louis this past Sept. So I'm really looking forward to playing and seeing you, George (love to hit some BP with you guys) and the old LV Stars, (Iman, Perez) and of course Bam Bam. Yea all this Batting practice and no games makes Ricky Mad. Hey Joe, I'm moving up this Year to the 60's, and I'm only 58 years old. Being born late in the year does have its advantages, I'm a Rookie again. AND I MUST SAY THIS AGAIN WAY TO GO SAN FRANCISCO GIANTS WAY TO GO BAY AREA & NORTHERN CAL FOLKS Kennard #12 |
| Nov. 2, 2010 gary c 418 posts | canljak what is the Black World in St. Louis? |
| Nov. 2, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Kennard, Yeah, parade will be tomorrow and it's great to see what winning the World Series will do for attitudes and behavior in the City by the Bay. I saw an ex writer for Chronicle Sports this morning on the way to vote and he said the team reminded him of the Old Mets with their killer pitchers, Koosman, Seaver and Nolan Ryan, winning the world series 40 years ago. Good pitching will beat good hitting and it's true in softball, too. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 gary c 418 posts | Yea that pitching will take you along way in softball if you don't hit. Comparing baseball to softball is ridiculous two completely different games. Hitting is the main thing in softball pitching is the main thing in baseball. I understand being excited about something that has never happened in that city before but please get serious. Funny the Giants win the World Series and they can go out in there uniforms and trick or treat they are in the right colors. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 FOFO Men's 60 284 posts | Great job Giants. It doesn't matter what the ratings were for the series. People that know baseball watched and enjoyed a GREAT World Series played by the two best TEAMS in baseball today, that also featured some of the finest pitching performances ever in a W.S. People that didn't or think otherwise are just ignorant about the game and are probably from the East coast or Dodger fans. WAY TO GO GIANTS!! |
| Nov. 2, 2010 gary c 418 posts | Of all time that includes Koufax and Drysdale who would have rather have had in there prime? Weak field but they were the two best teams. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 canIjack Men's 60 322 posts | Mad dog, I don't remember the line drive, by Willie McCovy(44), but I do remember the warm up swings and those deep, deep launches at Candle Stick Park against my Dodgers in the early 60's, Jim Ray Hart, Alu's, brothers , All those great guy that made up the SF Giants, in the 60's. Those Good old Days. Now that was a Rivalrey |
| Nov. 2, 2010 canIjack Men's 60 322 posts | Try this with speel check} Mad dog, I don't remember the line drive, by Willie McCovy(44), but I do remember the warm up swings and those deep, deep launches at Candle Stick Park against my Dodgers in the early 60's, Jim Ray Hart, Alou’s, brothers , All those great guy that made up the SF Giants, in the 60's. Those Good old Days. Now that was a Great Rivalry, Its nothing like it was. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 gary c 418 posts | 1962 Bobby Richardson 2nd base Yankees broke friscos heart.Juan the coward and his merry men lost again. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 canIjack Men's 60 322 posts | Spelling and Grammar Check really needs to be used, By the way Please No Negative Dodgers comments, We have a few of those things you call World Championships, Go Lakers, Dodgers, Angels and ..........Ok Raiders(they did get a Championship here too. WE ARE SC, WE ARE SC, WE ARE SC, WE ARE |
| Nov. 2, 2010 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | Yea the late 50's and the 60's with the Giants at Seals Stadium and the Niners at Kezar. Great times. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 Chief144 Men's 70 160 posts | As I sat and watched the opening day of the Fresno Grizzles, Giants AAA team, the opening day battery: Madison Bumgarner pitching and Buster Posy catching!! And of course they won!! It was great seeing all those players here in Fresno! WAY TO GO GIANTS!!! |
| Nov. 2, 2010 gary c 418 posts | Canljack everything true but SC SUCKS |
| Nov. 2, 2010 gary c 418 posts | Chief144 Now that Posy is with the Giants maybe Pelosi can catch for the Grizzles I hear that she will be looking for a job. No catchers mask needed that face is so tight you cant brake it. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | SC fear the beaver.... the duck...well all the other pac 10/12/?? teams...... |
| Nov. 2, 2010 FOFO Men's 60 284 posts | Gary To throw two shutouts and to give up only a single run in another is one of the best W.S. performances ever. A 2.45 EA against the best offense in Baseball is pretty impressive as well. They are too young to compare to the Dodger greats but during this W.S. they would stack up pretty well to any staff in W.S. history. As you are a Dodger fan I can appreciate the Giants win leaving a bad taste in your mouth. My two favorite teams are the Giants and whoever is playing the Doodgers. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | GaryC if you are refering to USC we are in a rebuilding couple of years. I would like to remind my friends in The City of 2002 and a little club in Anaheim taking it to and from them. Celebrate now my friends, you are now on the radar of every MLB team. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 gary c 418 posts | I feel the same way about the Giants or as we say FRISCO SUCKS! Sweeping the Yankees in four is a little more impressive than Texas in five no matter what year it was. I think SC ran out of money paying Reggie Bush it could be awile. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 FOFO Men's 60 284 posts | Gary To throw two shutouts and to give up only a single run in another is one of the best W.S. performances ever. A 2.45 EA against the best offense in Baseball is pretty impressive as well. They are too young to compare to the Dodger greats but during this W.S. they would stack up pretty well to any staff in W.S. history. As you are a Dodger fan I can appreciate the Giants win leaving a bad taste in your mouth. My two favorite teams are the Giants and whoever is playing the Doodgers. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Thanks, E. Graciously said as you truly are a man of character and grace. Lincecum now has 2 Cy Young Awards and a world series with 2 wins against Cliff Lee, the Yankee killer. It would be hard to imagine a pitcher better anywhere in the universe past or present at his age. Matt Cain is a gem and so is BumGarner and none of them will be going anywhere next year. Quietly, the team came together and got tougher when and where it counted, on defense, and with a little bit of timely hitting took control of the playoffs and the World Series. I say we can do it, again. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 gary c 418 posts | WE! HOW MANY INNINGS DID YOU PITCH. Better than Koufax and Drysdale what planet do you live on? Go back and look at the record and you will find out who is right. While your there maybe you can find out what the strike zone is. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 gary c 418 posts | Koufax ERA in four world series 0.95 mostly against Yankees. Lincecum in one series ERA 2.45 If you think that's better than Koufax than your smoking what Lincecum is smoking. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 antieinstein Men's 70 53 posts | OK Frisco won yes and I hated it and I guess when you have never won anything you get a little carried away. True we don't have a pro football team but neither do you. Unless you think the thugs across the bay count. Congratulations enjoy the win it will be another 57 years before you win again because Lincecum will be in rehab and Pose will be in New York. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Joe I can only think of one pitcher who may have been not only as good as Lincecum but even better at that same age or even a bit younger. His name is Fernando Valenzuela. Personally I like the story about Drysdale and Mays. Playing in SF Drysdale was on the mound, Mays comes to bat, digging in as he always did, then looking out to the mound and quickly refilling the holes he had dug in the box. Then telling Roseboro, "sorry I forgot who was pitching today". True or not it makes for a good story. =) |
| Nov. 2, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Posey received the kiss of death from the media when he was compared to Johnny Bench, how unfair is that! Lincecum will probably be over used by Bochy and will be on the DL before the end of 2012. As a fan I hope neither of these come true, but there are tendencies that come with MLB. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey John, I agree about the comparison for Posey with Johnny Bench but Lincecum has had 3 seasons now with 2 Cy Youngs and a World Series. Koufax was awesome but tore his arm/shoulder to shreds and shortened his career. The book on Lincecum is he has the best change up in baseball and is still learning how to pitch. The kid is awesome. I think he's a throw back to older times because this kid was born to throw a baseball as opposed to figuring out a way to make a ton of money and become a corporation. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Koufax also wasn't a very big guy and had an extremely high kick/torque delivery. I think the comparison with Koufax is a good one and fair to make. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 gary c 418 posts | Koufax or Lincecum both in there prime who would you want other than Giant fans 95% Koufax. He finished games wasen't looking to the pen for help like todays pitchers.Koufax best three years 78 wins 22 loses ERA under 2 969 strikes outs 64 complete games and three cy young awards and that was when they gave one not two. Lincecum 39 wins and 22 loses ERA well over 2 757 srike outs and 7 complete games. Today a very good pitcher but to compare him with the greatest pitchers off all time is insane. |
| Nov. 2, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey John. I love those old guys like Don, the chopper, Drysdale Willie Mays and Bob Gibson. Drysdale said he would throw at a batter's legs and never up and in. No need for if you made a batter move and be aware of his legs you have done your job as no one likes getting hit in the legs. The best Mays story for me was he would swing badly at a pitch early in the game missing it on purpose and would plant in the pitcher's mind that would be the "go to" pitch against him, later in the game. Then he'd crush it. Willie Mays was the best ball player I've ever seen play. Barry Bonds was the best hitter I've ever seen hit. Jim Edmunds the best outfielder and Ozzie Smith, the Wizard of Oz, the best infielder. Johnny Bench the best catcher and Bob Gibson, the best pitcher. Rollie Fingers, the best closer. Joe Torre, the best manager. |
| Nov. 3, 2010 gary c 418 posts | Hey Joey, Drysdale was never called the chopper He was BIG D. Ask Mays if he never threw up and in. Barry Bonds cheater Drugie hated by his teammates. Gibson was good but Koufax was better. Who won more Cy Young awards? Rollie Fingers most famous for the pitch he threw to Kirk Gibson. LEARN THE STRIKE ZONE THEN SOMEBODY MIGHT TAKE YOU SERIOUS ABOUT BASEBALL |
| Nov. 3, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Joe go out and get "60 feet 6 inches" a book by Bob Gibson and Reggie Jackson, many stories and insights. In the book Jackson said he would have loved to face Koufax, Gibson told him he wouldnt have been able to touch Koufax's curve. According to Gibson it was the best he had ever seen. Drysdale always said he would give the middle and outside to the hitter, but the inside belonged to him, seemed like a fair tradeoff. =) I agree with Torre being the best Mgr, only he should have quit while he was ahead. The pre-steriod era really produced some incredible players. |
| Nov. 3, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | What pitch did Fingers throw to Gibson? Jackson v. Koufax? Lefty v. lefty. Not a good match-up for Reggie. |
| Nov. 3, 2010 frampton Men's 55 55 posts | Koufax was obviously a great pitcher, and it's way too early to say that Lincecum is up there with Koufax and Gibson, but let's looks at the contexts in which Koufax and Lincecum pitch(ed). Koufax's home park was the best pitcher's park in the majors at the time, he was pitching off a 15-inch mound, in an era where pitchers dominated. (BTW, it was Gibby's 1968 that was the best pitching year of our lifetimes.) There's much more hitting these days, in the 60s every team had two or three banjo hitters plus the pitcher, so pitchers could "take a breather" during the bottom of the order, which is why they routinely threw 300 and more innings in a season. Nowadays, even eighth-place hitters have double-figure homer power, so pitchers need to bear down almost all the time. It's silly IMHO to think that the players in the past were better than today's players -- today's players are bigger, stronger, and faster. In every sport where there are objective measurements (track, swimming, etc.) today's athletes are better than in their parents' generation. Stands to reason that the same is true of the team sports. The balance between offense and defense is what makes baseball such a great sport -- as the hitters get better, the pitchers also get better. Here's another shout-out for Mays, nobody else has ever done it all the way he did. He could beat you at the plate, on the bases, catching and throwing. One of the smartest guys on the field you ever have seen, maybe ever will see. |
| Nov. 3, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Spoken like a true NorCal Fan. But hard to argue with facts. Mays was the best! Lets see if Lincecum throws 29 complete games in any season of his career, then we can talk comparisions to Koufax and or Gibby. Batting averages havent changed more then a few % points pre and post Steroid Era. |
| Nov. 3, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Gary S, Mike and John. Fun discussion about earlier time heroes that are still alive and well with us. I agree with you, Mike that players today or so much stronger, healthier, bigger and faster that push come to shove there really can be no comparison. Just take guys who throw 100 mph. Now, the woods are full of 'em. And great point about the height of the mound. Some of the old guys would have huge problems pitching from the lower mounds of today. Lincecum is truly a/the freak. |
| Nov. 3, 2010 frampton Men's 55 55 posts | Well, that was the point -- NOBODY will throw 29 CG again, because the game has changed. In 1968, both the NL and AL LEAGUE ERAs were under 3.00, this year both were over 4.00. Again, I have loads of respect for Koufax, even if he did beat the Giants like a drum. 1962 to 1966 were a great run, even if Dodger Stadium did help him. He was lights out in both the '63 and the '65 WS. That said, I'd argue that Maddux was definitely the equal of either Koufax or Gibby. A different style of pitcher, to be sure, but the results in context are astounding. |
| Nov. 3, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | No doubt in most all sports today's guys are bigger, faster, and stronger. But I am not so sure about better, well not unless you want to turn baseball, football, and basketball into the decathlon. Who can bunt anymore? Who can steal bases? Who can pitch 280 innings multiple seasons? Who can dribble without palming the ball? Who can take a charge? What DB can actually intercept a pass without hands of stone? Much more athletic? Certainly. More skilled? Questionable. |
| Nov. 4, 2010 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | Lincecum is a freak, for sure, but he is also a heck of a pitcher. However, 3 years does not make a career. I am rooting for him to continue pitching well. I won't yet put him in a league with Gibson, Koufax, Whitey Ford, and others, but he could get there. He also has made some of the best defensive plays I have ever seen a pitcher make. Having said that,you will probably never see another 300 game winner in the majors. They used to have a 4 man rotation and these guys came back every 4 days and threw well and threw 9 innings. Now it is a 5 or 6 man rotation and they only expect 6 innings out of them. Was it Jackson pitched a no hitter this year with 140 pitches and they gave him 8 days off??? Are you kidding????? They molycoddle pitchers so badly nowdays that they do not build the arm strength to go nine solid innings. Gee, he is up near 100 pitches!!! Better pull him. Baloney!! How many pitchers duels have you seen through 6 innings that became slugfests when they took the starters out because of pitch counts, or because he gave up a scratch single. They make kids start throwing curve balls before their arms are developed-and ruin so many of them in the push of parents needing their kids to accomplish what they couldn't when they were young. (Little league world series-every pitcher is throwing curves-at 12!!) I never threw a curve ball until I was 14, and threw 95 in high school. Pitched all the way through college and got some looks-but my head was in the wrong place. At 58, I still have a reasonably strong arm because I took care of it, and strengthened it when young. When are they going to figure this out? |
| Nov. 4, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Mark. Great comments. The need for speed and exploding breaking balls is more prevalent now than ever before. These guys are nastier, need to be and they're arms/bodies bear the brunt of it. It's insane to offer any pitcher a long term contract unless he's a spot/movement pitcher like Maddox instead of a power pitcher like Bumgarner. I wish they had the radar gun for the older guys. It could be very revealing, the speed or lack of speed they pitched with and don't forget the the height of the mound or throwing down hill for leverage and trajectory were HUGE advantages. I think 6 innings should be the new 9 for pitchers and the staffs should be built around it. Don't let these kids go past 6 and make more room for middle guys. It would extend the life of guys like Zito, too to have someplace to go when then can no longer "throw". |
| Nov. 4, 2010 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | You really think Gibson, Koufax et. al. didn't throw hard? Feller was clocked over 100. Or have exploding breaking balls?? I know the mound difference-I was in high school and had to make the transition. Yes, it made a difference. But the big factor is movement-at any speed. I could and did hit off guys throwing mid nineties in college. If they didn't have movement on the ball it was a lot easier to hit. Varying hand position, arm position, angle of release, 2 seam, 4 seam, how hard you grip the ball, how softly you grip it, finger pressure at the point of release-all of these were employed back then, they just didn't know it in the announcers box. Now they call them 'cutters' or 'back door' or any of a number of names. I had the opportunity to talk to Mickey Lolich last spring. He won't even get into this discussion because he can't believe where pitchers and the 'art' of pitching is right now. He told me he became a 25 game winner when he mastered (from Johnny Sain)varying the hand position in his release. The biggest difference in pitches I can see is the increased use of the split finger-and, correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it Elroy Face developed it as a 'forkball' and went 19-1 one year. BTW, do you know what the fastest recorded pitch is? |
| Nov. 4, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | webbie you are so right,i threw,maybe 80 mph,but could get real good movement with the ball by doing what you have just said.i figured that out at 14 yrs old.my dad was a pitcher so i did have a little help there,just wish i threw lefty like him.... i remember all the time guys getting easily into the 120's for a pitch count,then coming back 4 days later to pitch again,what was the old braves mantra "sphan,sain,pray for rain" LOL... is the record by chapman(reds),he did throw 105 this year and they were talking about that being the fastest. |
| Nov. 4, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Webbie, I believe the fast recorded pitch was 110 by Rosie Black, softball of course. =) |
| Nov. 4, 2010 gary c 418 posts | Just watched the parade for the Giants reminded me of a parade in Pasadena called the DoodahParade. Relax guys win your first World Series and Posse compared with Bench ,Linecume with Koufax and Gibson look up the records and you will see that that's a joke.Also those players did it without the help of drugs. Steroids have put all records set in question. Just look at Barry Bonds how many hat sizes did he increase in a few years . Before he took steroids he was a good player after steroids he hits balls out of sight. Pitchers only allowed to pitch six innings why don't we put up a screen and have them ware a mask. Dirty I was wrong Ekersley threw that pitch to Gibson not Fingers. WRONG A WORD THE GAS BAG OF THIS SITE HAS NEVER SPOKEN. |
| Nov. 4, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | E4/E6,that is humming a softball,do ya know who did it for baseball,i'm thinking it had to be someone maybe from the old black league,they had some guys who could throw. gary c the doodah parade mmm i used to live 2 blocks south of Colorado blvd off the 11 coming in from LA...used to work at the old post office there. steroids have tainted all the modern day records now,who can tell which are which now... |
| Nov. 4, 2010 gary c 418 posts | mad do . This comparison to the greats of the past by Giant fans is ridiculous. Posey and Lincecum are good young players but have a long way to go to reach the heights of the past greats. Plus we need to know if they had help. Because of the actions of players like Bonds an Mcguire all players of today are tainted even if they are clean. |
| Nov. 4, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Gary C, how about adding something of value to our discussion. Your constant negativity has become a bit boring. You obviously have baseball & softball knowledge, how about sharing that with us. Maybe give us your insights on current events in our sport. I understand you dont like Joe, that said go meet him and get it settled, instead of dragging the rest of us with you. |
| Nov. 4, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | I thought it was Eck, just wasn't sure if you ahd some other pitch in mind from a different game I wasn't aware of. |
| Nov. 4, 2010 gary c 418 posts | Why would I want to meet him? I have asked him many times what he want's to meet me for he never answers. Why don't you tell him the samething.I was new on this site and the first person who responded to me was Joey all I asked was about having tournaments with league bats. He than told me if I couldn't compete go play some ware else said I was a clown and was trying to ruin HIS GAME. If I bore you don't read my posts. |
| Nov. 4, 2010 gary c 418 posts | Dirty If I am wrong I appreciate you calling my attention to my mistake and the way you did it. |
| Nov. 4, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | No problem, and same here. |
| Nov. 4, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Gary C, I read your original post and thought it had merit and was on subject. I also agree that Einey tends to attack, unnessarily. That said you seem to search him out and disrupt every thread posted by him or any thread he posts in. That is my point. You dont seem to know when to be a bigger man and let it go. |
| Nov. 4, 2010 gary c 418 posts | E you my be right but even when I was young( many many years ago) I never could stand a bully and had a few fights because of the way they treid to intimidate the weak .To my way of thinking this guy is nothing more than a verbal bully. You do have a point and I will try to take your advice |
| Nov. 4, 2010 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | Guys, I was talking about a baseball pitch-Van Lingle Mungo was clocked at 110 miles per hour in the old days and remarked afterward that he could have thrown it harder but he had to hit a small target to be clocked. I heard about Chapman clocking 105 or 106 this year. That's pretty fast alright. I am surprised nobody wanted to talk about there never being another 300 game winner. Nobody pitches enough and I would hazard a guess that 511 wins, 749 complete games, lifetime 2.36 ERA, 22 seasons-pretty safe numbers for all time records. He threw year after year 40 plus complete games. If a pitcher has 3 now he is 'amazing'. What led the league, 9? Arm strength is just not there anymore. |
| Nov. 4, 2010 gary c 418 posts | Webbie Now they have closers in High School. They are tought that complete games are not important. Remember when non starters were the guys who weren't good enough to start and when the manager went to take a starter out there would almost be a brawl on the mound between the pitcher and the Mgr. because the pitcher was embarrassed not to finish. Gibson Drysdale and Koufax would laugh to think seven innings was a quality start. I think Sandy Koufax when asked what he thought a quality start was said when the catcher handed him the ball when they were walking off the field after the ninth inning. |
| Nov. 4, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Players as Mike said, today are stronger, faster, healthier and bigger than ever before not only in baseball but in basketball, football and other sports and are better athletes who have to ramp up their performance and skill levels to higher levels than existed in years before. The 2010 SF Giants would take apart the 54 Giants, 55 Dodgers or 56 Yankees. They may not even score a run against the monsters of the mound that SF had on display this year. They would hit the crap out of any of pitchers they would have faced. This is more obvious in basketball or football where the size, speed and skill of the players is obviously and remarkably different than 50 years ago but it is nonetheless true in baseball though it might be hard to for some to see and admit. Barry Bonds is probably the best hitter that has ever played professional baseball and carried San Francisco in every way for a decade paving the way for this year's championship squad. |
| Nov. 4, 2010 antieinstein Men's 70 53 posts | Barry Bonds used Steroids he is a cheater he could not do what he did without DRUGS. No matter when Gibson or Koufax would have dominated. If you know anything about baseball you would know that. Fan is short for fanatic and when you say Gibsen and Koufax would not be great today that proves it. |
| Nov. 5, 2010 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | By the way-the stats above were Cy Young-I omitted who's they were. Einstein-what is it that makes a player great? It is dominating in a sport. It is doing things no one has ever done before. It is performing in their sport at a consistently high level for many years, setting the standard. Babe Ruth raised the bar for home runs by so much it was unbelievable. Home Run Baker never hit more than 12 in a season but rated the nickname.Gawy Cravath hit 24 in 1915 which was the previous 'modern era' record before Ruth. Ruth hit 54 in 1920 and the National League leader was 15. Would he hit that many now-no, you are right, it is a different game. But he was a true pioneer. One of the driving factors now is $$$$$ and parents are pushing their kids early to be ballplayers-and they are training year around now. Back years ago these heroes had JOBS in the off season. They barely made ends meet. Yes, you can't compare yesterdays players with todays. I do believe pitchers like Koufax, Gibson, Ford, Feller, Johnson would have still excelled in todays sport. They were great pitchers and would have adapted to todays game. Ted Williams would still have been a great hitter. He and so many others would also have adapted to todays game. And they didn't need steroids to compete. Einstein-you have come out strongly against shaved bats. What is the difference between shaving bats and steroids? One enhances the equipment and one artificially enhances the body. Both are cheating. |
| Nov. 5, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Mark, What a great, thoughtful and full response. Brilliant, in fact. I agree that Ted Williams was an awesome hitter and dedicated to being excellent. The great ones for the most part would have adapted and done all right to well but the difference in size, speed, conditioning, strength and equipment cannot be underestimated and would make a "no contest" between the past and the fast. That being said it was where the steroid "push" if you will was coming from. It was not from inside baseball. Selig had told congress he would deal with it internally without indictment or punishment of any individuals as baseball had looked the other way to help bring baseball back from a strike. Then outsiders, politicians and those with no real understanding/love of the players and the game got involved maximizing their self interest not unlike the movement to dumb down softball, and took advantage of apathy and mob/group mentality and began pushing us, the players and baseball around. It should have been stopped by baseball and we should have moved on. Every era has controversy and things making it different from prior ones. Mays was rumored to have his 'red juice' in his locker. Would/could he have survived a government investigation of the proportion that Barry Bonds has faced? And by the way he's been convicting of nothing and likely won't be. The counter suit of robbing him of his lively hood while he could still hit should be a doozy. I don't agree with meaningful cheating, that is, taking advantage in an unsportsmanlike way, during any competition. It's gutless and destroys any true contest. So Bonds and if Canseco was right, 75 per cent of the players were using performance enhancing aids. Deal with it a reasonable, fair and understanding fashion and move on. We as a culture didn't do that. The herd loves scapegoats and villains. The mob loves executions and beheadings and shrewd men knew there was some power to grasp to make themselves look good at someone else's expense in this case, the players. The whole movement was gutless and other directed from what was best for the players, the game and the fans. So, I don't like the way it was handled and guys like Bonds, Sosa and Clemens were made to take the freight so we all could feel better about cheering, supporting and loving them and what they did, so much. Just discard and punish them all after they gave us so much??? That's exploitative and characterless behavior and may be OK with some of the posters on this site but it's purely gutless, self centered and wrong in my book. |
| Nov. 5, 2010 gary c 418 posts | They gave us so much! No DRUGS gave us so much. The players who used steroids can't be judged with the past greats because DRUGS accomplished there feats not there talent. True they still would have been very good but without DRUGS they can't be compared. Before Barry Bonds head started to grow he was very good but after his dome grew three sizes he became a great hitter. That's not talent and hard work that's DRUGS. In everyone's heart they know Bonds,Sosa,Mcguire and the rest let us all down and helped young players think it was OK to do what you have to do to compete. The sad thing a lot of these players will die from what they did to compete. REMEMBER LYLE ALZADO.RIP |
| Nov. 5, 2010 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | Did they really give us so much, or did we give THEM so much? Most of these players made more money in a year or 2 than most of us will ever make in a lifetime. In the I, ME, My generation we have now, they don't play for the love of the game. They even charge for autographs for crying out loud. Some-Barry Bonds included-would not even give their autographs to kids!! A-roid had a 275 million dollar contract and OPTED OUT! And nobody wanted to touch it, except the Yankees who rewarded this greedy behavior with a 325 million dollar contract. And he hit What? this year in the post season-again! Manny Ramirez-what a waste of $47 million for the Dodgers-suspension for steroids-all about Manny. Would either of these guys play the game for what they did in the old days-I doubt it. Mickey Mantle hit a baseball 565 feet at Griffith Stadium. How far would that have gone if he had juiced? I know it is not everyone. I very much agree that the situation with steroids created an environment where guys were losing their jobs to 'users' and did it to compete. They had to. Still, how can you compare them with the old time players? How can you say they would not have been as good or better had they had the advantages todays players have? It is all conjecture. The old time players hustled EVERY ball out. They don't any more. The old time players loved the game. I don't feel that very much any more. The almighty dollar is on the carrot stick and players are going to chase it. Very few can resist (Mauer). Old time players got beat, and went to work to get better-todays players say 'what team can I go to to win?' And the sorriest part is these guys are the role models for the future generation. The kids see this and they become that way-trash talking, greedy, the word loyalty is a joke (See LeBron), the mentality the kids have in softball-if you ain't cheating, you ain't competin'-where do you think it comes from? Ok, sorry guys-I am off the soapbox. |
| Nov. 5, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | I am still not so sure that bigger, faster, stronger, and less-skilled makes a player better. And all you can do is judge guys against their peers. Ruth would hit more homers in a season than ENTIRE TEAMS!!! How much better than that can you be? Not to mention the caliber of pitcher he was. |
| Nov. 5, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Something to think about. How many of you, if given the opportunity to take pills or even injections that would make you better at your jobs and consequently make a gazillion dollars would not do it? Just wondering. |
| Nov. 5, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | flip the situation,how would these clowns do in the non-steroid era.they would be getting their butts handed to them.give the post steroid guys the juice and see what happens,they'll be better than they were back in the day.the new area guys don't want to compete fairly like the older generation did. would i use for a job, if it was illegal to do and i was randomly tested...NO..... these new era clowns think they can get away with anything and should be excused for it..or oh they didn't know the stuff was illegal to use,yeah right.... |
| Nov. 5, 2010 gary c 418 posts | Dirty My answer is NO like I said before. REMEMBER LYLE ALZADO.RIP |
| Nov. 5, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Mark, You talk about an era with Sosa, A-Rod, Bonds et al. That's the point. It was part of what was going on while baseball admins noticed receipts and interest kept climing. You don't kill them or single one or two out to punish letting All the others, go. That's preposterously ignorant, self indulgent and indicates a mob, herd, flock mentality which does suit some more than others. How did baseball go from 7 or 11 homers in 1919 to nearly 60 by Babe Ruth. Was he really a superman? How come players like Gherig, Jimmy Fox and Hank Greenburg managed to his as many or near as many as the Babe? It was the ball, I'm willing to bet. We've seen what happens when you make the ball with more bounce to it. Balls get hit 400 and 500 feet. And it's what baseball will do slowly but steadily to bring the hitting and run production back which is 1 to 1 with gate receipts and fan interest. All to say, there's more fun in baseball, a la Bonds and Babe Ruth when there's more dynamic hitting going on and baseball has always moved in that direction (lowering the mound, smaller parks, DH) and will continue to do so because they know what we know in softball. Lively bats and balls, rule. |
| Nov. 5, 2010 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | When Ruth went to 54, the next closest for any year had been 25 and in the National league 15 led the way that same year. It wasn't several guys made an assault on the records, or obliterated them. It was only Ruth. Same balls, same bats-Apples to Apples. But you hit it right on the head-home runs and runs mean $$$$$. People don't appreciate a 2-1 pitchers duel any more. They want to see 15-12 with 8 homeruns. So, when interest wanes again in the future, do we go to composite bats in the majors to see 120 homeruns by one guy, 25-18 games, ERA of 8.77 leading the league? Same reason soccer is unpopular here. Hockey-best game to watch-fast, tremendous athletes on skates, a hard puck moving over 100 mph and a man guarding a net to keep it out and making absolutely incredible saves. They just changed the rules a few years back to facilitate more scoring. You say it isn't fair to penalize a few, but I say is it fair to the guys that set their records without artificial enhancements to lose their records to someone who did? That is not an ignorant thought or a mob mentality. I did not consult anyone to feel this way. We were having a good lively debate on this-why did you make it personal? |
| Nov. 5, 2010 gary c 418 posts | Because he can't engage in debate unless he attacks personally. That is all you can do when your wrong. |
| Nov. 5, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Mark. Terrific points. The measuring stick needs to be the same that is applied to any/all players in order to make accurate comparisons and this is just about impossible. As we in softball know, all you need is to throw in a 50 core 500 compression ball and watch all the home run hitters. Don't you think they were doing this from ball park to ball park, weekend to weekend, situation to situation, team to team? We'd have to know for sure in order to be sure of any judgments. Do you really think Mickey Mantle and Ruth who were said to hit balls over 550 feet could have done that with a lesser ball/bat combo? No way. Lively bats and balls make our game more fun for most to all. There is just no doubt about it. |
| Nov. 5, 2010 gary c 418 posts | Babe Ruth played in the 20s and 30s dose anyone think the equipment was anywhere near what it is today? Talent is what makes a player great not a hot bat or DRUGS. Feats with funny bats and DRUGS mean nothing to the real fan. |
| Nov. 5, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | I would debate and/or confront anyone who would show up as a person regarding any differences or concerns but have no desire and see no value in communicating with or relating to a disparaging and depersonalizing anonymous clown with red nose and face paint. SSUSA needs to put up or shut up regarding it's standards for posts on the site and should/will be held accountable either way. |
| Nov. 5, 2010 gary c 418 posts | Hey Joe Babe Ruth is dead and I don't think he ever posted on this site. Relax pal |
