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Discussion: Combining Divisions

Posted Discussion
Nov. 6, 2010
DMac
Men's 60
185 posts
Combining Divisions
I've been following with interest the discussions about combining divisions. Allow me to put in my two cents.
I think two divisions is a bad idea. The biggest disparity in talent level is between AAA and AA. I think there should be three divisions
Major Division: Comprised of the current Major+ and the upper half of the Major teams. The best level plays for the best prizes (rings?)
AAA Division: Comprised of the lower half of Major teams and the upper half of the current AAA teams. Prizes could be in the area of jackets, bat bags, etc.
Rec Division: Comprised of the lower AAA teams and the current AA. You win, congratulations- here's your sweatshirt.
Let's take it a step further:
Major: Any bat goes
AAA: Composites
AA: Single wall or wood only
Thanks for reading. All criticisms are welcome
Dennis McNulty
#7, Double Edge
Nov. 6, 2010
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
388 posts
Not bad ...take it a step further and do away with the 55 age group
Nov. 6, 2010
gary c
411 posts
Great idea but you will be attack shortly. Hope I am wrong.
Nov. 6, 2010
Jawood
Men's 50
788 posts
Good thoughts. Three division is all that is needed. Can't have any bat goes in the Major, still needs to be legal.
Nov. 6, 2010
Paco13
362 posts
DMac, U should stop smoking that cheap stuff. Most of us stopped in the 80s. I have no idea whom U R and it truly does not matter. U sound so stupid that I am actually amazed that a human can be so short minded. I play major and AAA however, the AA teams pay the same price as any M or AAA and they are as competitive as any level player and play the game with the same passion and love as anybody. Were u high when U made those comments. Now that U R sober take it back and apologize for your stupidity.
Nov. 6, 2010
gary c
411 posts
DMac I told you.
Paco why can't you just comment and not attack someone who was just giving there opinion.
If you don't agree you have every right to express your opinion without saying STUPID things about being on drugs. By your post I think we know who is smoking POT.
Nov. 6, 2010
titanhd
Men's 50
324 posts
I can see your point Paco13. What does prizes have to do with combining divisions? And the bat idea is simply comical.I agree with only having 3 divisions and I also agree with Enviro-Vac. Get rid of 55 age group.
Nov. 6, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
695 posts
Gentlemen,

I do not think that attacking someone is the way to get our points across. We are all entitled to express our opinions, whatever they are.

Dennis,

Before anyone else says anything here, I want to say that I do not agree or disagree with anyone based on being a team mate, friend, or employer. I would think besides being team mates, that we are friends after playing together this season. I know you are a great guy and very fun to have on the team and a great player. I say the following as a friend and team mate regarding your 2 cents worth.

I agree 100% with your idea on how to divide up the divisions. From talking to the higher ups in SSUSA, they claim this will never happen. I always say never say never. As long as the Major Plus teams will not yield to a much lower home run rule like 1 up, 2 up, or at best 3 up, they will continue to play no one. Look at what I have to look forwatd to this season. Not much choice for them to make here, because the other divisions could care less. They do not have to put up with it, and they represent the majority. Again, with this thought, I agree 100% with you, just do not see this happening in our lifetime for the reasons stated above.

The other 2 items that you commented on, I disagree with you 100%. I will incorporate your other 2 comments into one. Everyone on this board should already know how I feel about this issue, since I have commented on it many times in the past, and lightly hit on it recently. It does not matter how you divide up the teams, nor what age or level of playing skills. Every player/team deserves to play with the same equipment and play for the same prizes. All teams pay the same money and want the same enjoyment from the game. A ring in AA, AAA, Major or Major Plus is the same to me, since you are competitive at the level of play that your team represents. That is all for now, and hope you can make it to dinner with the team on Saturday night for our victory celebration the first weekend in December in Hemet.

Tommy D.,

Remember what I jokingly said about the manager's meeting and sitting 4 rows behind me, then said 8 rows now that I am a Major Plus player? Well, sit where ever you want, we will not be going to any more manager's meetings, because we do not have enough teams to warrant spending 3 days at a tournament, nor the cost and time involved. Anyway, maybe I will see you at the Winter Worlds, if I get hooked up with another team. Are you going to the December Hemet tournament? Hope to see you and your lovely wife at one of those events.
Maybe you and Martha can join me for happy hour and I will buy the drinks! See you soon!

Just My Opinions!

Andy Smith,
Double Edge,
60 Major Plus



Nov. 6, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
695 posts
I am just curious about one comment guys. When you say get rid of the 55 age group, are you saying to have 50's, 60's, 70's. and 80's as the age groups? Please clarify this for me.

Thanks,

Andy Smith,
Double Edge,
60 Major Plus
Nov. 6, 2010
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2614 posts
For all practical purposes SPA has to only two classes.....in qualifiers and regionals. Everyone the the same class plays each other in pool play and then the age group is divided into gold and Platinum, usually by won/loss record in pool play.
As for the age groups, maybe 50-57 and 58-63.
Maybe this should be done one step at a time, divisions first and if that works, age groups.
Nov. 6, 2010
gary c
411 posts
See Paco that's how inelegant people discuss issues. Put down your BONG and learn a lesson
Nov. 6, 2010
DMac
Men's 60
185 posts
Thanks for sticking up for me, guys, but it is not necessary. Paco is throwing spitballs at a battleship.I never agreed with Einstein that a person needs to put down his name to make an opinion valid. However, Paco's sort of personal attack should not be anonymous.
I am not an elitist, but I proposed the different awards and bat usage for a reason. In my experience in senior tournaments, it seems that nothing bothers players more than a team playing down a level or more from where they belong. If a team really wants a big prize, then they should have to beat the big dogs to get it.
Anyone offended by anything I said is probably too thin-skinned to play tournament ball.
Nov. 6, 2010
Omar Khayyam
984 posts
DMac, thanks for the clarification. Paco's comments were so out of line and mean-spirited that I thought he was a friend of yours just teasing you in fun. If Paco really meant it in the harsh tone that he conveys, then certainly he has exceeded other bitter negative posters on the site and he really ought to be removed. He also made gary c a prophet!
Nov. 6, 2010
Jose #12
Men's 60
86 posts
The restructuring of the age groups, and possibly the move to three divisions is OK. However I strongly disagree on the bat/equipment change.

I play 60 and 65 AAA and enjoy utilizing the senior bats. The lesser bat concept is OK for league play, but not for tourneys. Omar and I have discussed this several times on the board.

Wood bats, single walls may be necessary for leagues where there are larger age gaps and skill levels, but my team chooses to use the best bats/balls when we travel.

Each age group and level is fairly competitive. If major/major plus can use senior bats playing each other, what is the difference in that or AAA's playing each other.

If and when teams don't attend SSUSA events (162 teams at the Winter Championships in Ft. Myers), then maybe this discussion would be more relavent. Until then, let those of us who like the rules the way they are, enjoy them.

It is possible on this board to have differences in opinion without attacking others.
Nov. 6, 2010
gary c
411 posts
I don't agree with your opinion Jose but I respect it.
Nov. 6, 2010
Omar Khayyam
984 posts
Jose, amen to your last sentence.
Nov. 7, 2010
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
Hey guys,
Try this one on for size. Why don't we eliminate the ability to draw from touching states? There's 1.5 million senior softball players in the U.S. It might even things out a bit.
Nov. 7, 2010
Paco13
362 posts
If the shoe fits wear it. I believe his comments towards the lower level players is a lot more demeaning than what I said. Please read it again. If U were not high and if U R not as stupid as U sound then let it go. REMEMBER If Nobody Loves U...JESUS DOES. LMBO
Nov. 7, 2010
titanhd
Men's 50
324 posts
DMAC.Just to re-phrase my earlier comment so as not to appear offensive.

I don't think awards enter into the equation for eliminating divisions.If entry fees for tourneys are the same across all age groups and divisions then so should be the awards.

Equipment, including bats should remain the same for all Senior age groups and divisions.
Nov. 7, 2010
gary c
411 posts
PACO THE POT HEAD
Why don't you quit attacking people and learn how to discuss a subject like a grown up. Your constant reference to drugs is childish. The only thing on this thread that's lower level is your thinking. Just a thought to help you. JUST SAY NO
Nov. 7, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
695 posts
Major Plus Players/Teams,

Have not heard any one from the Major Plus divisions comment on conceding the home run rules to say like 2 up and an out for example. However, this does not surprise me at all. Unfortunately, I am in your neck of the woods now, and would try anything to play more teams. I just do not understand this thinking. Maybe when I am a Major Plus team for awhile, I will get it, but I doubt it.

Well, just to give you more statistics to ponder, I will state the facts here. At the Florida Worlds in the age groups 50, 55, 60, and 65; there are approximately 119 teams competing. In one age group there are no Major Plus teams. In another age group, they get to play the best 2 out of 3. In the largest 2 groups, there are 3 teams. I might have a few of the numbers wrong for each age group, but you can count them yourselves, but in the 4 age divisions, there are 8 Major plus teams out of 119 teams. If this is what you want, then no need to discuss the home run limits or anything else about combining divisions.

I know what is next to come. All those comments about we want unlimited home runs. Or, we want 10 home runs then a single. Or, we will concede to the current Major limits. How humble of you. Most Major teams reach their home run limits on the average only once in every 25 games, if that. My team never reached their limit in almost 80 games. I only remember once this past season, and only one team that we played reached the home run limit, and that was in extra innings.

Doesn't everyone want to play more teams, especially, if you travel far away for a 3 day tournament. Am I missing the point or objective here? I guess my team is missing one thing here that a good majority of the Major Plus teams do have, a sponsor. Even with a sponsor, I do not care to spend my 3 day weekend playing the best 2 out of 3.

I guess as SSUSA has stated many times, the combining of Major and Major Plus teams will never happen. Go ahead and ream me for the obvious, because I know it is coming. BTW, if you are upset at me for my comments, I am the pitcher on our team, so please do not hurt me, I am too old to die.

Andy Smith,
Double Edge,
60 Major Plus

Nov. 7, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1952 posts
DMac-vitriole aside-and it's too bad a thoughtful idea cannot be debated without animosity-You have some interesting ideas. It is very sad to hear teams that win and get moved up say 'Gee, that's great, but now we have to break up'. I agree 3 divisions seem to be a better idea. There are so few Major Plus teams that they end up playing down all the time-rarely having a chance to play straight up softball. I also think a 50-57, 58-64 division split would enhance tournaments with more teams per bracket, and maybe SSUSA might consider just making that age change at major and major plus levels. Your reasoning is logical, DMac-and not to denigrate anyones competitiveness, the higher division you play, USUALLY the more 'in it to win it' you are, rather than being a team of friends. One other idea to consider might be 'special exemption status' to players that might want to play some tournaments at a higher level during the year, but for any number of reasons, cannot commit to a full schedule with a major or major plus team.(for example, in NM we have no teams higher than 50 or 55AAA, and the closest major and major plus teams are in Phoenix-450 miles). That might enhance the number of major and major plus teams at regular tournaments throughout the year and provide more competition year around, instead of just a couple tourneys a year. These ideas aren't perfect, but maybe can be tweaked to enhance our game.
Nov. 7, 2010
Jawood
Men's 50
788 posts
You have heard from me. We are stuck in this ridiculous Major-plus divison averaging about 4 HR's a game and playing in tournaments with only a couple of teams, paying all of our expenses ourselves. We would love to play in a 16+ team tournament to make it worth while.

I have talked with almost all the Major-plus teams in 50+ and they have said that they would play Major rules with some sort of progressive HR rule.
Nov. 7, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1952 posts
Anybody for a radical idea? How about Major-5 hrs, Major plus 7 hrs, anything else is a single, BUT you can DESIGNATE WHICH YOU WISH IT TO BE. Example-you hit one out in the first inning with no one on-you can choose for it to be a single. OR You hit a grand slam in the first-you can choose to take the HR. It may make some interesting choices-whether to take a 2-run hr in the third with 2 outs and you have 3 hr's already, or take the single and trust your next hitter to produce, taking the runs off the board. That would take out the 'need' that Einstein feels strongly about that hitters have to go up the middle to keep it in the park.
And, maybe to further the strategy, once you hit your home run limit, then it becomes an out. There are a lot of possibilities-anybody want to toss this idea around?
Nov. 7, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
695 posts
Jawood,

I know we have heard from you. From all of the previous comments from Major Plus players, the home run rules still seems to be a huge barrier for combining divisions. With 5 home runs being the maximum in Major, are you saying Major Plus teams would agree to the 5 home run rule AND the 1 up? I am sort of concerned what..." some sort of progressive HR rule" would be defined. If they do not agree to the 5 HR limit AND 1 up with an out, then you are just spinning your wheels here. I have not heard of one Major Plus team that would agree to that, so we are still where we always are, but on the right track. I am just planning on the fact that this season will be no different for the Major Plus teams as it was in the past. What I keep trying to voice here and keep falling on deaf ears, is that the Major Plus teams are at the mercy of all of the other teams. The Major Plus teams are going to have to give in all the way, or they will continue to play the same 1-3 teams or no one. As tough as that may be to swallow, that is the way it will have to play out or nothing will get changed. My team is in this unfortunate situation now, and to be quite honest, I do not like it at all. Putting it another way, would you ever think that SSUSA would make a drastic change like this, if they thought(most likely know), that the Major teams would not adhere to and play elsewhere, you are just kidding yourself. The majority wins, because this would be about dollars and cents, and the Major Plus teams lose.

Webbie25,

You are kidding, right? I cannot even comment on what you wrote in your last 2 posts.

ROFLMAO

Andy Smith,
Double Edge,
60 Major Plus
Nov. 7, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
695 posts
Jawood,

You can only take one step at a time. You probably will not agree, but I will give you what I think should be the first step.

It would be great to have in hand a signed agreement from at least 90% of the Major Plus managers agreeing to the 5 HR limit, 1 UP, and outs, when any limit is exceeded, whether the 5 HR's or 1 UP. 100% would be ideal, but not going to happen.

I do not see or hear this happening. Therefore, I have enjoyed this discussion and the responses.

You all have safe and happy holidays!

Andy Smith,
Double Edge,
60 Major Plus
Nov. 7, 2010
Jawood
Men's 50
788 posts
One up would be the solution to everything. Major-plus teams could hit 20 if they other team did. On the other hand, if a team didn't have much power, they would be able to stay with a stronger hitting HR team. It's actually the best of both worlds.

I know most 50 Major-plus teams are tired of 2-3 team tournaments and/or having to play 40+ teams, unless they are lying.

Major 6 HR - 1up. (+) teams would have to give additional equalizers, such as runs - an additional run can be scored by non (+) teams in innings 1 through 6.

AAA 4 HR - 1up.

AA 2 HR - outs.
Nov. 7, 2010
JamesLG
296 posts

Jawood:

I believe your last post of the 1up makes the most sence plus it adds some excitement to the end of a game.
I don't and never will play M+ but I feel sorry for the teams (and players)that get stuck as a M+.

Thanks:

James
Nov. 7, 2010
Tate22
Men's 55
260 posts
Andy - nice to see your new found concern for Major Plus teams! lol Having been there for the past two years I can assure you it's not the end of the world. I would glady accept a 7, then 1-up in exchange for ever having a home run count as an out.
Jawood - having 1-up start immediately is overly restrictive. Maybe even 5, then 1-up. Declaring home runs as outs does not solve any actual problem with the game. Having a limit, however, is useful as a balance. BTW - I'm not aware that any of the 11 55 M+ teams in Phoenix ran out of homeruns. My team averaged 3.1 per game. The 325' fences had a lot to do with that.

Cheers;
Don Newhard
Nighthawks 55 M+
Nov. 7, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
dmac great idea's,i understand where your coming form on the prize thing also.how can an AA team say they are world champs when there are 3 other divs higher them ,like saying the AAA mlb winning their minor league title and declaring to be world champs.AA winner equals being the best of the worst.want good prizes and such play the top division.playing for fun an to play with friends,play down,also senior assoc should take that into consideration on the tourney fee..
Nov. 7, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
695 posts
mad dog,

Disappointed in your comments. Good luck with the bashing you will get on this. This is mostly for fun and exercise. We are not playing MLB and getting paid. We all play for whatever
team at whatever level, and deserve the right to earn a World Title at their level and be proud of that achievement. Everyone knows a Major Plus team is stronger than a AA team, but that should not lesson the quality of winning the title at their level.

Don,

We should run into what we ran into last year. Except in some of the larger tournaments, we rarely played more than one 60 Major team per tournament. We gave runs and extra fielders to many teams every tournament. This year we will be doing much of the same.

Andy Smith,
Double Edge,
60 Major Plus
Nov. 7, 2010
DMac
Men's 60
185 posts
Anyone who watched the Breeders Cup yesterday should understand where I'm coming from on awards. The last race had the biggest purse because it had the best horses. The winner, Blame, could have been a heavy favorite in a million dollar race but his owners chose to take on Zenyatta for five million. Higher risk, higher reward. The "every level gets the same award" stance is the same attitude as the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality in Little League that is having a detrimental effect on our society. Start throwing rocks, boys.
Nov. 7, 2010
Marv19
Men's 60
429 posts
I have a novel Idea. Would most of you agree that the difference between M and M+ is offence? I realize some will say its defense but in my observation it would be offence. I don't know of any team being re-rated and winning a major tournament based mostly on their defensive skills. I hope that's not too much of a stretch? So what if you just eliminated the + and all were majors? Then to keep the playing field level we then have a 1 up and a single rule?

Don we missed you this weekend. Your division was fun. We had a team down from San Lois Obispo. Bunch of really nice guys. They played hard but came up short in the semi's. See you and Andy in December.
Nov. 7, 2010
Stretch14
Men's 50
185 posts
Best of the worst. Try thinking before you say something.
Nov. 7, 2010
Jawood
Men's 50
788 posts
Marv19. Yes, it's the offense, it's always the offense that separates teams, this is slowpitch softball! Your "novel" idea is the easiest solution of all, just eliminate the +, and let's get back to 24-36 team tournaments again.
Nov. 8, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1952 posts
Ok, Andy-you caught me with my tongue in cheek on the hr rule. But the overriding theme here is that 1. There are not enough major plus teams 2.For major teams to compete with major plus teams, major plus teams must make significant concessions to make it a competitive game 3. These conditions exist no matter what the hr rule is.
I was not tongue in cheek about the divisions. How else are you going to have more major plus teams in a division? Ballplayers of that caliber do not just materialize out of the woodwork.
Nov. 8, 2010
boston
297 posts
are the players voices heard by the rules committees? I believe most players and managers on this board have good ideas and know what is best for this sport. Teams should come to a concensus on this issue. I have played in tourneys with the 20 somethings and the coaches will decide either open in HR or use the HR rule established.
I think the established limit with a 1 up rule is sufficient. But we need to look at options from the people playing the game.
I agree with Webbie when he says the higher you play the in it to win it mentality rules. I have seen that when I played 50 AAA and we would play major and major + teams. The game stopped being fun and became a job.
Nov. 8, 2010
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
DMac,

For what it's worth, I can pretty much agree with your comments. I believe the a higher division team is giving up too much when it plays a lower division team. It has to be demoralizing for a higher division team when the play a lower division team knowing they have to allow either 11 fielders or 5 runs and hit fewer homeruns. At least make the lower division team hit the homerun limit of the higher division team.

I think this is very simular to what softball went through back in the 80's. Back then, no one wanted to play up. Everyone wanted to sandbag and play teams they can beat up on. So the associations kept creating divisions. Now we have what, an E division and national championship? I mean - come on man. If you're playing E you shouldn't even be hitting the ball out of the infield. The only homeruns in E should be ones where 4 errors are committed.

Me, I want to play against the best teams there are regardless of the age group or division. The Mavericks are a very good team, but I'd play them every weekend if I could. You only get better by playing the best teams.
Nov. 8, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
andy not sure why,have you ever seen a real AA champ even capable to stay with a M or M+ team let alone the champs of those div's.i have not.
dmac you have it right as far it goes,especially by giving the breeders cup example,the best play for the biggest loot,the rest well ............

Beasley,i love the way the kids brag on winning something in E or D and act like they are the best.you ask these same kids to play clean tho, and its"well everyone else is using juiced equipment so we have to",and the crying about not being allowed to hit hr's,whatever dude.i tell them all the time,ya wanna hit it out,move up in class,but hey they are scared to do that.
personally i think there shouldn't be any so called worlds for the bottom rung div teams,go as far as state tourney and let it be at that.E worlds what a joke.
stretch,like i said before"the best of the worst",what else is it if ya don't/can't compete at the higher levels.your certainly not in the "best" group when you play down..
Nov. 8, 2010
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
Mad Dog,

I couldn't agree more.

Remember back when a "B" team couldn't play outisde adjoining counties in their home state? All they had to look forward to was a state tournament. No regionals, no nationals. What was the saying, if you want to run with the big dogs you have to get off the pourch. You want to be a National Champion, move up. Instead the associations created nationals for "B" and lower divisions and what happened? The "A" teams moved down. "A" players wanted to be gods among boys and moved down so they could be the big men on campus. Pathetic. Imagine Mighty Mike saying screw Steele's, I'm going to play with some "B" team. Heck we would have never seen his 800+ homeruns in a single year. If he played for a "B" team, who would have really cared?

Maybe I look at it wrong, but to me it's simular to Baseball. Major+ is the show. It's where every baseball player wanted to be. I don't think there's a kid alive that dreamed of being a baseball player and said I want to play professional baseball but I only want to play on a single A farm team. Are you crazy kid?
Nov. 8, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
695 posts
Bob,

We can give all of the reasons and examples that we choose. There is no place here to demean any player or team, just because they play at another level. I can throw in examples too, like Olympic boxing or Olympic wrestling, where the winners of another classification receive the Gold. These athletes are classified by weight. So what if the 130 pounder cannot defeat the 250 pounder. For Pete's sake here Bob, let everyone have the distinction of being the best at their level. I am sure a AA team knows that they are not able to defeat a Major Plus team, but they are the best team that day in the world at their level. What is wrong with that man? This what I said that I could not tolerate when I was playing AA and AAA ball from the higher up players that I ran into one weekend. This is a condecending attitude by someone with a big head that seems to want to be recognized as such. I will not debate you on this, because we will just be repeating ourselves over and over. When my team in the 55's won a large tournament in AAA, we were proud of our achievement for the level that we competed.

Regarding your demeaning comment,"best of the worst" SHAME ON YOU! You really need to concentrate on being more positive.

Have a nice and safe holiday Bob!

Andy Smith,
Double Edge,
60 Major Plus
Nov. 8, 2010
gary c
411 posts
Sorry but getting runs or playing with an extra player is demeaning and sounds like Sunday picnic softball . My thought is if you have won and the rules say you move up then you should. Why beat up on the same guys over and over?
Or you could disband and start over. One other thing is to have another division with league bats and you could start over again. Let the attacks begin
Nov. 8, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Three divisions and maybe five age groups would be more than enough. That would still bive you FIFTEEN 'national' champs, or champions at every tournament.

What are there now? 28? Just too many. If everyone is a champion then it just does not have as much value.
Nov. 8, 2010
boston
297 posts
So the way I see it from the coments. If you play college sports at a D-2 or lower school it doesn't count as playing college ball. If you make it to Double A or Triple A in baseball or CBA in basketball it doesn't count because you were one of thousands that didn't make it. But, if you were a high school star and went on to play 50 Major plus in slowpitch softball, you the man.
Nov. 8, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
boston, you have that pretty much exactly correct. :)
Nov. 8, 2010
boston
297 posts
TATE 22: I have always thought the Major + teaqms should play on bigger fields. Then you can open up the HR's. As you stated you played on 325 ft fields avg 3.1 HR's. sounds good to me.
Nov. 8, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Dirty, is that idea coming from someone who hasnt won a Senior Championship? I would guess that it is.
If and when you have the honor and luck to win a championship you may realize how ridiculous your statement is.

Nov. 8, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
As long as we have a Team sponsor as an owner on this site our voices will be unheard. We can talk, piss, moan and yell, but nothing will change unless HE wants or allows it to. Plain and simple.
Nov. 8, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
E4/E6,heard that,been that way since senior ball inception.
andy now your trying to compare apples to oranges i think.i have played in all 4 of the divs and know what talent there is in each,as i'm sure you do.you would have to prolly get at least 10 AA teams to get a decent major team,forget even trying to make a M+ team.i have great respect for the guys that i play with and against in the lower levels.thats all i'm saying.
Nov. 9, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
E4, it is a basic economic principle. The more of something there is, the less value it has.

As far as me having to win a championship to speak on the subject, I am going to guess you have had an opinion at some time on politicians. What offices have you held?

Have you been critical of a TV show or movie? How many have you produced, directed, and/or acted in?

Have you had an opinion on a restaurant? Where have you been a chef?

Get the point?
Nov. 9, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1952 posts
Nice post, Boston-I played D-2 but we had a major schedule in baseball in college. But we are only AAA so I guess we are nothing until we play major plus, eh? Just kidding, guys. 325 fences make a nice difference. The guys who can hit 'em still will. I love the challenge. However, the problem still is how to increase the number of teams per division in major plus. Outside of combining divisions, I don't see another way. There are 19 50's, 20 55's, 19 60's, 18 65's, and 14 70's teams listed as major plus. That makes 58 teams under 65 for the ENTIRE nation. Two divisions would at least put the numbers close to 30 teams in each division, depending on ages of the guys already there. A much better chance of getting more teams to play true major plus ball, straight up!! 325 fences, no homerun limits, no homerun outs, no inning run limits, no giving away runs or defensive players, PLAY BALL!!!! That's the way it used to be---remember??? I would love to play a tournament with those rules again at that level.
Nov. 9, 2010
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
Boston, Webbie25,

I get your point and understand what you are saying. If I offended you, I apologize because that wasn't my intent. I've read my post and it does come off sounding arrogant.

What makes this difficult is sandbagging of teams and players. This has been a problem for many associations and isn't isolated to Senior Softball. Since I can remember (yesterday I think) some players have been playing down. They want to be the BMOC. Their ego believes that if they played at the appropriate level, they would be just another player. What they don't understand is that as some time they will be the man and come up with that big hit or catch to win a game or championship.

And it's not about the homeruns. I've seen plenty of teams that will base hit you to death compete with teams in a higher classification. The thing is, some teams think that just because we're playing a major/major+ team we have to hit homeruns with them. Dude, play your game, base hit and score your 30/35/40 runs. I'll bet you'll be right there at the end of the game.

And playing on 325 fences would be awesome. I think that's what they are in Naples this weekend. I'd say move them back a little further if you can. Maybe we have this all wrong. Instead of taking the homerun out of the game, maybe the fields should catch up with today's technology. I mean, 300 feet was a good ways with the old 38 oz Bombat, Easton (white cap) or Craig Elliott Steele's bat. Today, with the senior equipment, a 300 foot fence is like a 265 fence back in the day.

Just saying....
Nov. 9, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
beasley i still have an elliott bat,31 oz beast.i use it for my heavy bat,light bat drill,like the one macenko has on his site.i do it with a tee,so as to see how i'm doing and also help my mechanics out.
Nov. 9, 2010
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
Mad Dog,

You could hit those bats on a pole and not dent them. I'm not surprised that you still have one and I bet it hits good too.

I don't know what they sold for back in the day, but it's what 20 years old? If you paid $200 for it, that averages $10 a year.

Miken - $175 - 50 swings - $3.50 a swing.

Elliott - $200 - 20 years - $10.00 a year.

No wonder the bat companies went to thinner walls, if we all kept our bats for 20 plus years they'd be out of business.
Nov. 9, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Dirty the value to anything is with the person receiving whatever is won, not in the prize its self.
How many Nobel prizes are handed out each year? Are they too less valuable?
You are right, I am not a politician, actor, or critic of food. And knowing that, I dont go on a public forum and try to pretend I am.
However I have won Senior Championships and do know something about winning them.
Nov. 9, 2010
Omar Khayyam
984 posts
E4/E6. Touché!
Nov. 9, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1952 posts
Beasley, dude! :-) -no need to apologize, I sure wasn't offended and I know Boston was tongue in cheek. Notice the 'just kidding, guys' in there. I won't comment on the sandbagging to win because its deplorable. I've played the top level and I know the HR is not king, but it sure helps to have the power. You have to respect the power defensively and it opens up the base hit because the fielders have to play deeper. Base hitting is easier, line drives can carry further and fall in, and mishits fall, too. 4 grand slams, though, beats 10 solo shots any day any league. Our AAA team played several games against m and m+ teams this year and competed well. Along with power, though, I did notice a big difference in defense. The m, m+ teams we played did not 'give' us the runs we quite often got against AAA foes. No offense to anyone meant.
One other point about bigger fields--the trap there is that the outfield area to cover goes up exponentially as the fences go back and we are not getting any younger. 50 plus arms and legs good enough and fast enough and strong enough to cover the area get to be in short supply, especially the older you get.
Nov. 9, 2010
Jawood
Men's 50
788 posts
Tate, I did mean 1 up AFTER the HR limit.
Nov. 9, 2010
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
Webbie25,

I just wanted to make sure I didn't step on any toes.

Having some power on your team is a nice thing to have and does help keep the defense honest. With the homerun restrictions, you need to have a good mixture of both hitting and power. I'm sure I'm not saying anything new though.

And you're absolutely right, moving the fences back does make it harder on your outfielders. I guess that why no one can come up with a real solution to this situation.

Homerun restructions - players hit the middle and with today's equipment could seriously hurt someone. Move the fences back - some outfielder is going to have a heart attack chasing a heat seeking missle in the gap. Deaden the ball - I can hear the complaints already. Deaden the bats - the same ones that complain about the balls get louder.

It's a vicious cycle.

But I do agree with a post someone had earlier. Back in the day we entered tournaments. They weren't "A" tournaments or open tournaments, they were just tournaments. The only restriction was the time limit. Hustle on and hustle off if you want to get a full 7 in. One game you're playing a church team and the next game is against the defending Major-Open Champions. Everyone knew that going into the tournament and they all came to play. Teams didn't call the tournament host and say if you let so-and-so in we're not coming. They jumped in the tournament and took their lumps as well as giving some lumps. That was some of the best softball I've ever played !! Heck, I'm still nursing some of the lumps I took.
Nov. 9, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1952 posts
Agree, Beasley--me, too- I played open ball then out of Lubbock for 2 yrs-remember Dudley Copeland?-that man could hit-and he batted second behind me. I hit about 250 hrs one year and he hit 300 plus. They told me to stop taking triples because Dudley was just going to lose it anyway!! Whew! We had a 4th of July tourney in Albuquerque for years-48 teams-no classes. Campbells Carpets, Capitol Insulation, Leather Enterprises, American Realty, Las Vegas Rebels-all would come in, and 3 of the fields were 250-270. They put snow fences in the baseball field to make 4 fields.
Wouldn't it be fun to lobby for an unsanctioned, everything goes tourney-no home run limits, no per inning limits, no time limits bring your team and play tourney?
Nov. 9, 2010
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
Webbie25 - I played most of my younger days out of Florida. Got the privledge of playing against Copher Brothers, Jerry's Catering, Steele's, Howards, Ray's Metals, Dan's Sports and a host of others while playing on "A" and "B" teams around the state.

Then got very fortunate to play on an Open/Super Open team.

It was an awesome time.
Nov. 9, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1952 posts
We played Howards in York, PA with Don Arndt in 1979 (I still have my mug) in the losers bracket and lost 14-9 after York Barbell beat us 11-9. Amarillo had a great preseason tourney back then-Port City Ford, Chromalloy/Fluid Engineering, Nelson Paint/NELCO, Shoe-o-rama WI,and others-what a time we had!!!! Blue dots and 38 OZ bats!
We were priveleged!!!
Nov. 9, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
beasley,$200,mmm don't think so,i paid $40 for mine,bought mine when they toured in 86 or 87 from their guy who wasn't playing the game i was at,just like the miken truck at our tourney's.hell my first cu-31 bat i only paid $50 for it,they were listing for $100.
Nov. 9, 2010
boston
297 posts
Beasley- No offense taken. Love the discussion and also enjoy being a smart ars. I just know players and teams need to come to a consensus on this issue. We pay the money and pretty much should have most of the input into the rules. Guys should not be penalized for hitting HR's period. Also, Sandbaggers suck.
Webbie - I know this is off topic. My grandson got out of the hospital yesterday. He now ways 4 lbs. It was great to see him w/o any tubes in him. It was also great to feed him. I did on the other hand give him back to my daughter when it was diaper changing time. Don't miss that part. Thanks for all the prayers.
Nov. 9, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1952 posts
Great-Boston!!!Stay in touch.
Nov. 9, 2010
TOMAR77
Men's 55
193 posts
Dmac,you started the Thread by demeaning the lower divisions ,offering us Happy Meal Prizes if we won lower division Championships. I guess that includes you as you only won the Major division! I happen to feel that your team, Winning your division was terrific, in fact everyone who won their division deserves credit.Congradulations to all the Champions at all levels and all ages. Many comments were condensending and unfortunate. Some of you may not realize it , but this is not the Major Leagues. This is in fact Recreation Ball, at a high level yes , but make no mistake you are all amatures not Professionals , so maybe you need to get over yourselfs, (some of you). For those of you with the HUGE EGO's , if it wasn't for those of us with the SMALLER EGO's SSUSA would not exist to the extent that it does. Just take a look at the numbers, the bulk of the teams are rated AAA add in some AA's and guess what? You guys at the Major and Major+ get to excerise your EGO's and pound the ball. Financialy we at the lower level do the heavy lifting. We at the lower level deserve the same recognition (prize wise) as the top divsion. I recognize the higher divisions have higher level skills in general. They receive their just recognition by being placed in the higher division. The disrepect that some of you have posted to your fellow ballplayers is a commentary of your own lack of humility, would you have those us that play at the lower levels carry your equipment bags? Are we unworthy of praise because we just don't have the skill level to play at the highest rating. I for one play the game because of the love I have for it , and the blessing that I am phyically able to participate. Andy I am more than willing to carry your bag. Congrats again on your Champioship and thank you for your commonsense support of the lower division.
With Respect,Tomar
Nov. 9, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
What I didn't get out of what DMac originally wrote is why do the best players need the best bats? Counterintuitive to me.
Nov. 9, 2010
DMac
Men's 60
185 posts
Tommy: I have played against your team in the past and have always admired the commitment you guys bring to the game. I have never intentionally demeaned any person (OK, except Barney Frank and Nancy Pelosi) and would certainly not look down on any senior softball player regardless of level.
The purpose of my comments on awards was not to crumb on the lower levels (of which I am a graduate of), but rather as a possible way of inducing teams to play up to higher levels, thus increasing the amount of teams in the upper divisions.
We all have closets full of tee shirts, and drawers full of trinkets. Really, who cares what they give away. I just want to play in a tournament that has more than four teams, but it seems that I don't have that option anymore, do I.
You guys read into these posts what you want to read, so I am not about to apologize for what I wrote.
Anybody who has sat down and talked to me face to face knows that I don't look down on anyone.
By the way, your friend Andy always says that we play just for exercise. If that's true then how come I always have to run for him?:)
Nov. 9, 2010
DMac
Men's 60
185 posts
Gary Sommers: The difference in equipment was just another attempt at inducing teams to play up at a higher level. I grew up playing stickball and don't care what equipment is used as long as it is a level playing field.
Nov. 9, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Last year or the year before SSUSA changed a few rules for just the reasons we are discussing, to move more teams up to the "Upper" divisions as those teams won "Major" tournaments or a series of tournaments by a certain margin of runs. Or something along these lines.
Like anything new it will take some time to become a reality. As we play and win we will be moved up.
As our senior ranks diminish I'm sure the "Lower" divisions will oneday be talking about how we dont like going to play 3 or 4 team tournaments.
Maybe when examples are used something of more equatity can be used to describe awards. Remember we all pay the same entry fees.
Tommy, I especially liked your Happy Meal reference! =)
Nov. 9, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
695 posts
Hey DMac,

Is that the best knock you have for me, Dennis? You are always looking down on me, because I am so short. :)

Dennis, the last 4 months I have had a pulled Achilles tendon, and the Phoenix Worlds was my first tournament back. Before that, coach's decision. LOL! Although, I am not as slow as some may think, the last 3 years I get runners, because so many guys at my old age get hurt more often, and being the primary pitcher, everyone seems to want to get me out of the sun. They do not even let me coach a base any more, so I can be relaxing in the shade. In addition, the past 2 years, I usually pitch 95% or more of the games. I would prefer to run for myself, except in some game winning situations, where we have a quicker player available. There are so many slower runners trying to run for me, and I wave them off. As a matter of fact, you are the fastest runner on our team, and that is the truth. BTW, if you would get on base more often, you would not have to run for me! Just kidding Dennis!!

Since you may be trading your ring in for a Happy Meal, could you please put my name on your ring. My Dad keeps taking mine. This way my Dad and me can both have one. Always a pleasure to be in a tournament with you Dennis. You always keep the conversation going. :)

Here we go again! Not only can I not run for myself, I have my good friend Tommy offering to carry my bags, thanks!! Do I look that old? I guess coloring my hair is not working any more. Good post Tommy, but I can still carry my own bag. Lately, I have to tote around Kenny's bag. That is a huge bag, so you can carry that one for me.

Everybody,

Have a Happy Thanksgiving and think safety, during this time of drinking and hopefully, not driving if you are drinking. Hope to see you all next season, and maybe I can stay injury free next season. Too many injuries for me last season. Guess I need to hit the gym.

Andy Smith,
Double Edge,
60 Major Plus
Nov. 9, 2010
TOMAR77
Men's 55
193 posts
After reading most of the posts and seeing it calm down a bit, just wanted to make a statement. I am the Number One Fan of many Number One Fans of Git R Done and for all the teams in Senior Softball for that matter. When reading the statements, all I could remember is the Tournament we played at Camp Pendleton. The TD even called Tommy and explained that all the teams were AAA’s and Majors and gave us a chance to back out. Tommy said no, that Git R Done still wanted to play. Thank goodness he did, we played and we played hard. We went home knowing that we gave it our all and had nothing to be ashamed of. That’s how we play most of the tournaments, seems that we always have to play higher divisions. Just makes us that much better. But as someone stated before, we pay the same entry fees, hotel fees, etc. as the Major Plus teams. We want the same chance to win “The Ring”. The “boys” play for “The Love of The Game” and have their “Field Of Dreams” in their minds during all Tournaments. And “The Ring” is the “Pie in the Sky”.

Martha De Rocher
Git R Done
Nov. 9, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
695 posts
Hi Martha,

It could not have been said any better than that. You are one of the best, and Tommy is one lucky guy! Look forward to seeing you both at one of the next 2 tournaments.

Andy
Nov. 9, 2010
TOMAR77
Men's 55
193 posts
DMac , thank you for your response, I have it from good authority that you are an upstanding person. That being said, your sweatshirt reference was in my opinion uncalled for, please read what you wrote and walk in our cleats (which you say you have)and tell me you would not appreciate the insinuation. That we are a lesser class of players and should receive recognition as lesser participants is condensending ,I do believe and trust that your intentions were not necessarily disingenuous. Just to let my fellow ballplayers know , we have a mix of players including several players on our team who could easily play on higher rated teams. They have made a conscious decision to remain on our team.They do so for their own personal reasons , they are solid ballplayers and I will defend their softball abilities to the end. Not all of us conspire to commit ourselves to the rigors of playing at the top levels. Yes we we want to be the best we can be (where have I heard that before?). We have neither the time or wherewithal to make that kind of commitment. Our priorities are elsewhere, work, health, family. Softball for 90+% of us is the Toy Department. When we are on that Wonderful Diamond we can forget about the problems that life gives us, we can play the game we enjoy and be the kids we were, ONCE AGAIN! The awards are secondary in the end. Why degrade any level of Championship in Amateur Play, by making it blatantly obivious through the Awards process ,that your accomplishment is less because for whatever reason you played in a lower division.It should be clear to any reasonable person that when the winners are recoganized in their respective divison that Major+ is at the TOP of the Game , but you know what, we also HONOR those other divisions for their gallant efforts in playing similarly ranked teams , busting their butts, playing injured , and paying their DUES both monetarily and otherwise. They to deserve the same level of recognition for their efforts. Dennis my respectful regards to you, I know we will meet, I appreciate your comments.
Tomar
Nov. 9, 2010
TOMAR77
Men's 55
193 posts
DMac, I forgot, I COULDN'T AGREE more with you in re: to BARNEY, NANCY. I'll toss in REID, as a BONUS!
Tommy
Nov. 10, 2010
DoubleL10
Men's 65
809 posts
TOMAR77, Bingo! You won the trifecta!
Nov. 10, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Ooooooh, you used my real name! My God, not I am going to have to go into witness protection. What a D-bag!

So you are saying that old men have such little pride that they would be willing to play up just so they could use special bats? Sad statement on senior softball.

By the way, since you tell us so often about your championships, care to provide some detail on what classification they were won in? Sorry I don't know, I must have missed SportCenter the day after you won and did not see the feature on you.
Nov. 10, 2010
DMac
Men's 60
185 posts
It's all good, Tommy. Actually, we talked at Pendleton for awhile and it was a nice conversation. I'm the guy on Double Edge who wears the colorful board shorts, which are worn as a reminder to myself that I am just here to have fun. BTW, that was a really good looking, top quality sweatshirt that I had in mind :)
Nov. 10, 2010
TOMAR77
Men's 55
193 posts
DMac, it is good! Sorry I didn"t remember you. We all know how are memory fades as we get holder. I do remember the Board shorts. Read my new Thread. It is written in jest, having a little fun with you and Mad Dog. Hope you get a laugh or two. See you at the ball park.
Tommy
Nov. 10, 2010
Uncle Mike
Men's 55
44 posts
No problem if you want to combine divisions. Here's 1 thing I haven't heard proposed, do away with the fences ! No more home run derbies or touch 1. Play defense for all 7 innings. That means all skillsets are important, not just hitting pop flys ! We have guys who are 5'8", 175 lbs. hitting 325 foot bombs. No fences, no problem !! Make mine a chicken mcnugget !
Nov. 10, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Uncle Mike, every see a ball just roll forever? thats what you will see without fences when the ball gets by an outfielder. You will see more Hrs then ever.
Nov. 10, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
well i guess i should apologize for demeaning the lower div's,from where i have played a lot,ask Dennis.i don't think they don't give their all and such and put out the 100%,but hey they are not playing up.


oh by the way,there are ego's,thru all the div's of softball or we wouldn't be out beating ourselves up.
Nov. 10, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
695 posts
Hey Bob,

That would be a good end to this thread. Look forward to seeing out there. Take care! Did you hook up with a team for the Winter Worlds in Vegas?

Andy Smith,
Double Edge,
60 Major Plus

Nov. 10, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
no andy,my team is going,but i can't afford it this time.
i didn't mean to rile people up...
sorry good luck next year
Nov. 10, 2010
TOMAR77
Men's 55
193 posts
DMac, Mad Dog & Duke if I may respond to you Gentelmen again on this Thread.
Mad Dog, you are absolutely RIGHT! Ego's have no Boundaries.
DMac, sorry about you having to share Mad Dog's Two Story, Beach Front Dog House located in front of the San Onofre Power Plant! After all you do wear Board Shorts DUDE!
Duke as always a good friend,you also are absolutely RIGHT! I am very Lucky to have Martha as my Sweetheart. Martha and I will see you soon. And to DMac & Mad Dog apoligies are not necessary you made your case which I may not agree with, but your opinions are worthy of thought and discussions. At least you guys have tha Balls to challenge us to make this game we Love better.
In Friendship
Tommy
Git-R-Done

Nov. 10, 2010
Stretch14
Men's 50
185 posts
Enough said.
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