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Discussion: hotbats

Posted Discussion
Nov. 26, 2010
RIK56
Men's 50
120 posts
hotbats
first off let me get this out first,i support having senior bats and the trump stote 44/375 ball.Defense is being played with this bat and ball combo,every tournment i go to you see great defense,most any one can field a slow roller from a mush ball,games are very competive for example our 6 games in phoenix our team put up 17,29,19,19,33,and 22,we lost 3 and one 3 all very good games which i think everyone enjoyed,anyone want to post the amount of teams at asa or nsa or usssa.ok i have said to much already,i posted this because i have a question to mad dog,i have never hit the 52 275 but i want to try to get one to hit it,i see on direct sports they are selling a hotdot clasic plus 52/275 is this the ball you are talking about.

Rich Fischer
50 caliber softball
st.louis mo.
Nov. 26, 2010
birdie
Men's 60
676 posts
Rich, I agree with you. I play ASA rules in the league and it is enjoyable. I have played ASA tourneys and they are fun. I really like to play in the SSUSA, SPA and now The ISSA tourneys because that is where the bats and balls are being used. I am not sure but I believe that the ASA uses the 44/375. If I am wrong please do not destroy me. It is all about the bats. I like the Hot Bats and I am an infielder. There are times that I wish that I DH but what the hell we need to try and play both ends. Thanks Harry
Nov. 26, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1955 posts
Hi Rik56-I also have not had a chance to hit the 52/275 ball yet. We scored 18,18,26,20,23,21 I think it was in Vegas and went 3-3. Three factors that kept the scores down: 1. 5 run innings stop at 5 and we had several that we had no outs or 1 out-no telling how many runs we would have scored, and 2. We had a few HR outs that held the runs down.3. we had several games that did not go 7 innings. Everyone wants an interesting, lively game. I do not want to see a return to the RF80 days of single digit games like 8-7 and 9-4. I do believe the fact that we need to regulate runs to keep the scores in the high teens to 30's begs examination. When the 47/525 and EST or Techfire bats were 'hot', we had a good balance and games were in the teens and 20's and more with no restrictions except homeruns depending on the level you were. If I hit it, it went out, and if I didn't, I didn't get the oooops homeruns I do now very often. Why can't we find that level now?
Gary C. and Einstein-Would you two for once allow this thread to open up to guys who normally don't put in their two cents worth? We all know how you two feel.No negative comments-just good debate and honest feeling!!!!! Please????
Nov. 26, 2010
gary c
411 posts
Is it OK to say I agree with you Webbie?
Nov. 26, 2010
birdie
Men's 60
676 posts
Webbie, I like the limits on runs and time. I enjoy playing this game but do not like going to the field for a 3 o'clock game and playing that game at 5 or later. I agree that 7 innings is nice but I would trade one inning for on time games any day. It comes back to little league 6 inning games if you get one more it is a bonus. Thanks Harry
Nov. 26, 2010
birdie
Men's 60
676 posts
gary c, That was perfect!!! Thanks Harry
Nov. 26, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
RIK,that is the "worth hot dot" it is the one we use in dallas,there are others tho that are supposed to be as good,baden makes a good one,trump and evil also make a good i have been told,dudley says theirs is a 52-300,but is the same ball as all the others,its just dudleys way to advertise their ball,300 comp MAX,where as the others just go for the 52-275 specs.do not try to gorilla swing these balls,just take what i like to call is "a golfer's swing" just make good contact,with s lightly up or down swing depending on what your looking in distance.it gets thru the INF pretty quick,ya must hit it clean for distance.\

thanks for at least asking and trying them for yourself.....
Nov. 26, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1955 posts
Birdie-I agree on the games behind-we have all had our horror stories about that! I agree the 5 runs grows on you and keeps games close. We had a 27-26 game in Vegas with CJS that was a lot of fun!! I was just making a point as far as we don't know how high scoring games would be without the limits imposed on it. I admit to being a bit old fashioned, I guess, but I feel a bit cheated when the game doesn't go 7 innings. My personal problem!!! I believe a 1-1 count would speed up the game some-that and an increase to a 65 or 70 minute time limit would get a lot more games in. I also acknowledge the fact that longer play may result in higher pay required for umpires and a bit more spreading out of scheduled game times would be necessary to accomodate this. Would we pay the extra to do this? Or are we satisfied with the 60 minutes and then the open inning?
Nov. 26, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
webbie we are now paying over $600 for tourney's now except for qualifiers and they are into the $300's to play,how much more do we need to shell out just to play a game of rec softball.now bring in a less than ideal prize package that is given and well there are better cost effective ways to spend your money for recreation.
1-1 count has been shown to not really speed up the game that much,maybe get ya 5 minutes at most.
Nov. 26, 2010
birdie
Men's 60
676 posts
Webbie, I do not have a problem with increasing the time limit to 65 or 70 minutes but please make sure that the next game is scheduled and one hour and 45 minutes after the start of the first game. I just want to show up for the 345 game and start by 400 at the latest. I have vodka to drink. Thanks Harry
Nov. 26, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
or some cool adult beverage right birdie....LOL......
Nov. 26, 2010
birdie
Men's 60
676 posts
You got it. When all is said and done it is always about the parking lot. Harry
Nov. 27, 2010
lazer larry
Men's 50
96 posts
RIK56, it almost sounds like a few of these guy's drank with COORS LIGHT in the parking lot before. Lazer Larry
Nov. 27, 2010
AndyA25
16 posts
played in one senior league using 52 cor ball with USSSA bats. Scores were still high. Balls hit on the nose (line drive type) did not seem to go as far. However, balls hit with more height seemed to go farther. I still think the better bats hit these balls better but not as much of a difference. I did not see a substantial difference in the bounce of the ball. However, the fields in this league were better than other leagues I played in.

Infielders probably did have more of a chance but balls were still hit very hard with this ball.

I read on softball fans that one of the senior associations was considering going to the 52 cor balls while dropping the 5 run per inning rule. Post by Kevin (trumpball).
Nov. 27, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1955 posts
Birdie-when it is all said and done here-you are exactly right-it's all about the parking lot and comaraderie. We ran on time in vegas with a 1 1/2 hour game schedule.
mad dog-even acknowledging only a 5 minute speedup gives us a good shot at another inning. I know it again changes the game, but we have probably all played 1-1 for a lot of years and I believe it is the easiest way to get in a little extra playing in the same time frame.
Birdie, mad dog-I know we are paying a lot, too. On the other hand-we ask for good fields, good maintenance of the fields, good umpires, a good supply of balls so we are not hitting pillows later on in the day, a good tournament overall and that takes money.
(maybe they can provide an extra bottle of Vodka for after the games!!!!)
Nov. 27, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
andy i'm on SBF,could you point me toward kevin's thread,there.what andy has written about the 52-275 is basically right on,except it is safer for the fielder.

webbie,its a max of 5 minutes,yeah we might be able to get an extra inning in.

and larry what is wrong with that...LOL.....
Nov. 27, 2010
birdie
Men's 60
676 posts
Webbie, They offer a bottle of vodka and I might consider playing with a pillow. Well maybe I would not go that far but I would not mined a 1-1 count if it would help. I do think that the pitcher would have a little advantage seeing that the batter already had one strike. If you take away the courtesy foul which I do not think would happen, I believe that would really speed the game up. Thanks Harry
Nov. 27, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
i think the courtesy foul is not needed either,all my leagues play without it here and there is no prol.we get 50 min at one park and 55 minutes in the other.we get 5-7 inning most of the time,unless there is a slug fest going on.as a pitcher i like the 1-1 count to start,alls i have to do is be close with the first pitch and most likely will have the batter swinging.
Nov. 27, 2010
AndyA25
16 posts
mad dog, This is trumpball's post from 11/15 on softball fans

Bob, believe it or not 1 senior association is considering going to this ball senior bats and no runs per inning, homerun, or time limit rules. Softball they way it was supossed to be played what a concept.
Nov. 27, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
i thought it was they weren't going to look at it,that is me kevin is talking to,by the way....i'll have to go back and read that again..thanks andy.....
Nov. 27, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
my bad ANDY i went back and reread and i see there might be one looking at it,well at least that is a start.wonder which assoc it is.....
Nov. 27, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Harry.
I think the one and one count
is a very dynamic positive adjustment
to our game both for pitchers
and hitters.

Robert.
I'm not so sure it's
'safer for the infielder'.
If a ball is very bouncy
like the 52 x 275 ball is and
the infield is hard and/or irregular
than balls should kick like mules
and be as unpredictable as butterflies
with a lot of them the ending up
on shins, faces, shoulders, hands,
wrists and arms causing way more
than less injuries.
I haven't heard anyone talk yet
about how a bouncier ball handles
on harder infields/outfields
like the ones we tend to play on
during hot summer months.
Nov. 27, 2010
birdie
Men's 60
676 posts
Joe, It would be nice if we could get 7 innings in and keep the games on time. If we need to go to a 1-1 count and no courtesy foul so be it. I have said that if I hit a strike I have a 99% chance of getting on base. I do not always hit strikes and with a 1-1 count I doubt that my odds of hitting a strike would improve which should speed up the games.Instead of waiting for the pitcher to throw the first strike, I would have to swing at the first pitch that look close. Harry
Nov. 27, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
The more aggressive a batter is
the better he tends to hit, Harry.
And 1-1 would give the pitcher an edge,
too, having already recorded
that first strike.
It would speed up the game, too
and pick up the tempo/rhythm
of the whole game
making it more interesting, competitive
and satisfying.
Nov. 28, 2010
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
einstein,
I agree.we were playing in Baytown against the La. Legends.Our usual lead off hitter wasn't there so my coach put me at lead off. First pitch I hit for a double. After the pitcher got the ball back, he turned around and smiled and said, your the lead off hitter, your not suppose to hit the first pitch and it surprised us, I said, That's in baseball, not slow pitch softball !
Nov. 28, 2010
lazer larry
Men's 50
96 posts
mad dog, not a thing wrong with taking a seat in the parking lot and having a few Coors Lights or whatever your brand may be. I have made a many of good friends on the asphalt after the game. If you have ever walked by the Coors guys guys in the parking lot, don't walk by stop and tilt one back we are more than happy to offer a brew up the a fellow ball player and BSer. Lazer Larry
Nov. 28, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
larry,here in texas my team is the coors light truck,LOL.....#6 is the budlight one.LOL.....

oh can anyone cliffs notes whienystein's post as i refuse to read his garbage any more.
Nov. 28, 2010
Jawood
Men's 50
788 posts
The 1 and 1 count speeds up the game UP TO 10 minutes. Sometimes it doesn't but it sure doesn't slow it down. No courtesy foul ball would really help the pitcher out and may speed up the game even more if you have a good one.

The 52x275 Trump ball sucks, I don't know about the other ones. Keep the bat/combo as is.
Nov. 28, 2010
outfielder
Men's 65
58 posts
Talking about speeding up the game, has anyone ever played in a one pitch game. You can play the whole game in about 30 min. It suits my game fine cause i walk up there hackin, usually the first pitch if it's close, if I ever get 2 strikes on me and haven't swung the bat, go ahead and call the paramedics, cause I've probably had a stroke. And just let me know where the Bud Light truck is in the parking lot and I'll stay til ya'll run my butt off.
Nov. 28, 2010
outfielder
Men's 65
58 posts
Hey Einstein, are you an attorney, the reason I ask is I spent 30+ yrs in law enforcement and spent most of those years listening to attorneys elaborate, detailed stories, jus tjoking, I do agree with you on the bats and balls, please Garyc and mad dog don't shoot at me for that.
Nov. 28, 2010
gary c
411 posts
Outfielder
If you were in law enforcement I respect you as a man of great
importance but even great men are wrong sometimes about bats and balls. Thank you for your service and making us safe.
Nov. 28, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Jawood.
Tell it like it is.
Outfielder.
Only the facts, man.
Nov. 28, 2010
gary c
411 posts
The fact are you cheat when you can get away with it. That's the facts.
Nov. 29, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Nobody's talkin'.
If no one is talking can someone be accused of not listening???
Not hardly.
Nov. 29, 2010
gary c
411 posts
I wouldn't talk either if I just admitted that I would cheat and take an unfair advantage over my friends in the SOFTBALL COMMUNITY. If you cheat in any way it means you are a CHEATER.
Nov. 29, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Putting the ball on a Tee would speed up the game too. :(

Is that what it has come down to?
Nov. 29, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I missed T-Ball, Gary.
Could be my chance to have it all.
Nov. 29, 2010
gary c
411 posts
Were you a pitcher in T ball to?
Nov. 29, 2010
outfielder
Men's 65
58 posts
Every assoc. in Senior softball is in business to make money, and in order to make money there has to be participation in the form of members at local and national tournaments, In order to ban certain bats and balls, first it would have to be agreed upon by the associations participating in the summit and if some don't agree to the ban it would pit the good guys against the bad guys having teams refuse to play where the hot bats and balls are banned as well as new organizations formed and advertise the fact of allowing the hot bats and balls. It would be a major contraversy in Senior Softball for a couple of years before a meeting of the minds takes place, it that ever happens, and what does happen to Senior Softball during this time, personally I love the game enough to play with a broomstick and a soccer ball, but there are hard liners on both sides of the arguement who could possibly walk away from the game
Nov. 30, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1955 posts
outfielder-I am going to the convention this week. While I am on here many times as advocating a 'measured step' back, meaning a small step to take the edge off the rockets coming off the carbon fiber bats, the 52/275 ball seems to be too big a step back. 2 of the biggest hr hitters in Albuqerque took a dozen out to try at 5500 feet and could only get a couple barely over the fence. That's too big a change and would highly affect the game-I believe too much. We don't want 6-4 games being common. We went through that in the 80's with the original RF80 that took a huge step back from the T-4000's. It was too much.
I hope the bat manufacturers are trying hard to come up with a tamper-proof bat. Maybe a bat with an endcap that expands when it is removed so you cannot get it back in and with a chip designed to communicate with another chip in the rest of the bat to alert people to the tampering, and a way to have a wand to scan the bats before games. I think having a way to scan a bat may be the answer somehow.
Nov. 30, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
webbie,someone already has design the chip to do this,demarini had one in their juice bat(green and white one),don't know what happen to that.

what 52-275 ball did you use,was the older ones with no assoc stamp.we use the worth hot dot classic + here in dallas area,and they hit very good.its just like any other ball there can be bad batches,ask evil sports about that..

also only your big boys should be hitting them out,no more mis-hit hrs.
Nov. 30, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Robert.
This comparison is even shocking to ME.

Softball's in the sewer;
chaos, corruption and conflicts
are everywhere;
everyone's dissatisfied
and nothing's being done AND
only the 52x275 will return us
to the pure game
we were only and always meant to play,
(Glory of the Fatherland )
only the righteous really know this
(NATIONAL SOCIALIST PARTY OR NAZIs)
only the true long ball hitters
(master race-aryans)
will be able to excel.
Everyone else is in the way
and doesn't really matter what they propose or say.

It's easy to say that Fascist thinking
is fundamentally non egalitarian
and non inclusive, but it is
also selective, self interested
and negative in its assumptions about
essential humanity and goodness,
OUR/my humanity and goodness
and I got 2 sets of 2 words for 'em.

As a player,
this movement to dumb down our game
is wrong at the beginning, middle
and end with respect to what is best for us and our game.
It's based on faulty and negative assumptions about us and our game
and as such,
will never receive my support.
Nov. 30, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1955 posts
mad dog-I didn't know they had a chip, but it seem logical that they should be able to do it now. The 2 guys I was referring to are guys I have watched and played with for many years and have always hit them out with consistency and a lot of power. The ones they hit was Trump Classic stote USSSA 52/275. They said it bounced strangely through the infield and did not carry at all. Both their reactions were it would really hurt the game.
Maybe SSUSA should have a couple of tourneys where they use the 52/275 for pool play and then have teams vote on which ball to use in bracket play and see how it comes out.
Nov. 30, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
that is the first ball they came out with,it was a little suspect with knuckling and such,they did get thru the infield pretty good.the one we use is the worth hot dot classic + 52-275.there are others that are as good according to others who have hit them,i just haven't been able to hit them,just make sure they are the classic +.
Dec. 1, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1955 posts
You just made a point I have made several times-that every time they try to adjust the ball, it takes a couple years to get it right and it is a mess. The RF80 was a prime example-terrible the first 2 years. They had the 47/525 right, it lasted well and played well. The 44/375 is good now, holds up well. With a lot of cities and municipalities banning composites, I would say making a move on the ball right now would be a mistake. The bat manufacturers may end up having to go back to 'double wall' bats or EST's or something like that. Let's see how this all plays out over the next year.
Dec. 1, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
webbie you are right about what the mfg's might have to do if the cities keep banning the composites.it is the reason i like going the the newer 52-275 ball(classic+),we wouldn't have to be changing all our bats out,specially since ASA is thinking about this new bat tests they might have coming out,just change the ball and they would be good to go.also this ball will not change it's spec's due to weather conditions like ALL the other balls do...
Dec. 1, 2010
Marv19
Men's 60
429 posts
The new anti tamper proof device is a retro fit product. Should be around $25. Its patented and will be out in spring. After it's out it will take some lobbying to the various organisations and cities. But it will revolutionize the game. Its main goal is to get carbon fiber bats back on track at the NCAA and second to eliminate the cheating that goes on. It will even detect a crack in your bat before you even know they're there. Contrary to popular myth all carbon fiber bats crack or break. It's just a matter of when. Most bats so called hot out of the wrapper are the most venerable due to the shorter curve. The longer break in bats last longer as the curve is longer. Presently the GBA has a 300 hit break in so you read into this what you will :O)
Dec. 1, 2010
Rightrj
Men's 50
56 posts
Mavr19,
I wouldn't get on the GBA band wagon just yet! I ordered the White GBS got about 60 swings on it and it cracked along the seams...put another 30 swings on it and it's done..Still waiting on MR. Bill to get me another. brought the GBA model and got 40 swings on before it cracked....Bill sent me another and I got about 50 swings on it before it cracked....3 GBA for a total of about 150swings and they're all are DONE. I think spending over $300 bucks for these bats and I was able to use them for 2 batting sessions ONLY really SUCKS!!!!! So those of you who have stated that they GOTTEN 300 to 500 swings before it was EVEN broken in....well I would have to question those guys!
Dec. 1, 2010
outfielder
Men's 65
58 posts
It's hard for me to understand why anyone would want to alter a bat like theU2, what's the difference in hitting a ball 301 ft. vs. 350 ft. just doesn't make sense. If they can come up with a device that can detect altering of a bat, I think any violators should be banned from Senior softball for long period. As to the GBA bat, I've got one I've used for two bp sessions and I'm not sure but I believe it has a crack in it, guess I'll be able to tell for sure next bp.
Dec. 1, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
marv19,it sounds like a good idea,but i see way to many ways around it,once the cheaters figure out how to duplicate them,and they will,you can count on it...
we will be back in the same mess.the ball is the only sure fire way to stop them,it makes it just not really reasonable to shave a bat,not getting an advantage with it.
Dec. 1, 2010
Marv19
Men's 60
429 posts
I know there was a batch in the first shipment that had issues. I know Bill is an honorable guy so it will be taken care of. Our two demos are doing just fine. We have lent these to many guys in the last few weeks since Phoenix to do BP. I used one of them in game situations. I know someone else used it in the Championship game in our last tournament. So having a problem is nothing more than a solution waiting to happen. But then again my glass is always half full. Please do me a favor when the problem is taken care of post it also. As for the device I doubt it will be copied. But if it is we'll deal with it then. See my glass just got a little fuller... is fuller a word other than a brush co :O)
Dec. 4, 2010
RIK56
Men's 50
120 posts
laser dont forget about umpires,and tournment directors and people who happened to stay at the same hotel as us.
Dec. 4, 2010
outfielder
Men's 65
58 posts
emailed coachbuy.com about the crack in my GBA bat and they are going to replace it, that is great news
Dec. 4, 2010
outfielder
Men's 65
58 posts
Hey Webbie, if you go to the convention could you share some of the things discussed and or approved there with us, it would be great to know.
Dec. 5, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1955 posts
Outfielder-it is posted under rules category as of today.
Dec. 5, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1955 posts
Outfielder-and all-They treated me incredibly well, and I think they did that for all visitors. I had a great time at the convention and it would be worth it to anyone to make the effort to get there and see the process and listen to them. I believe everyone of them is passionate about the game and wants to make it the best game they can. It is easy to sit here on the message board and listen to one side of an issue, but it is another thing to listen to the ones who make the decisions as they debate how to write rules for implementation. It is easy to just throw out a rule that sounds good, but so often there are backside repercussions that are not anticipated. This is what they dig for when considering a major change. For example, one idea put forth was to give the Tournament Director the ability to switch a seed so a rematch of a game that just took place in the pool play wouldn't happen again right away. Sounded good on presentation-why not prevent team 1 from playing team 2 in back to back games? By the time we got done, we had so many reasons not to do it, it failed quickly. That is a bit simplistic compared to the issues with Major Plus, but that is how it works. I'm all for the 15 run mandatory flipflop rule at 15 runs. Even if a team does make it up, you still have the home advantage. More often the visitors continue shelling a team and that can affect game times in a tournament. Longer games-great-and I love the 2 minute after the flip or conference that the game timer starts. If you get your team on the field right away, you get the complete 65 or 70 minutes. You can only legislate so much-the teams have to help on this issue by being ready to play. 1-1 was shot down for now to see how the extra 5 minutes helps. It does keep the 'traditional' 4-3.
Major Plus was debated heavily and a couple of proposals were put forward. It was tabled for more study after considerable debate. It is such a tough issue-I plan on continuing to listen to people and try to come up with something that will really work. One idea merits a lot more consideration, and I plan on spending some time this year bolstering or disproving in my mind whether it works. As in any organization, the wheels move slowly and carefully to avoid making a move just to say 'we did something'.
We are lucky that someone put their own bucks on the line to give us a venue to play. We sometimes forget that fact. 329 teams in Phoenix, I would say it has been a success.
This board and the few of us that do write here are really a very small part of the whole senior softball community and input given at the tournaments is listened to very closely. I plan on doing what I can to try to improve the game I love by attending functions and getting involved if they will let me. (They probably think I am a windbag already). :-)
Thanks for listening.

Mark Weber
Dec. 5, 2010
outfielder
Men's 65
58 posts
Webbie, thanks for your update and wanting to help improve Senior softball, it's people like you who are willing to get involved that will eventually make an impact on decisions made at these conferences and they will know that ordinary people or Players are interested enough to attend and will speak out
Dec. 6, 2010
Omar Khayyam
984 posts
Webbie, thanks for the input. We get that so seldom from people who actually make the effort to attend, as you did. Sounds like you had quite a few eye-openers.
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