Message board »Message Board home »Sign-in or register to get started
Online now: 1 member: TABLE SETTER 11; 54 anonymousDiscussion: Fundamental soundness
| Posted | Discussion |
| Dec. 1, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Fundamental soundness It's critical to examine and learn about an entity by going to it primary assumption(s) and see what lives at the core of it's being, i.e. it's heart and soul. The truth of anything is found in it's heart and soul by through heart and soul of others, and not the stats or the intellect. (Sorry OK and Robert). At the heart of softball are good men and women who are positive, fair-minded and want to have fun. The soul of softball is competition which can only exists when a contest is fair. Anything that isn't truly fair and/or fun will not work. Anything that is negative by assumption or nature will be antithetical to the men and women who make up softball and will only lead to antagonism, self interest and frustration. This movement to dumb-down the bat/ball combo has 2 things at it's core. One is that players cheat by nature and design and therefore nothing be "saving them from themselves" will work. And two, is that softball can be enough fun without lively bats and balls and it is not. The movement to dumb-down the bat/ball combo is wrong, won't work, is opportunistic driven by ignorance and self interest, will only fail and cause undue frustration, antagonism and emigration from the sport. |
| Dec. 1, 2010 gary c 418 posts | If this was a movie it would be take 5000 same old crap over and over. Your not teaching kids (if you were they would be asleep in class) please say something new. Why must do you have to be the center of attention? YOU ARE NOT THE VOICE OF SENIOR SOFTBALL! I know there are some who agree with you but not nearly as many as you think. |
| Dec. 1, 2010 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | einstein, I agree that the heart of softball are good men and women who are positive, fair-minded and want to have fun. Disagree that players cheat by nature. That's an awfully negative view of people. I have never played with a teammate who cheated on his bat. If I did, one of us would leave the team. Yes, some people cheat, and in this increasingly non-religious society, maybe young players cheat more than in the past. But I don't think the majority will cheat. And if we stop cheating by stern penalties, it might prevent a lot. I disagree that only lively bats and balls can make softball fun. You are dissing a whole generation of guys like me that had fun for decades before the modern era of lively bats and balls. If it is fair competition, it is fun. Playing with a sock wouldn't excite me, but I had plenty of fun playing in a time when only legitimate sluggers could hit the ball out, and the rest of us did our part with our gloves, our arms, our base running, and our brains. I disagree that the only motivations to reduce the overly-hot conditions (and have a hope of retaining and bringing back the millions who drop out because of the hot conditions) are ignorance or financial self-interest. Unless you mean self-interest in returning to the balanced game that was played by millions of more men than currently play, in which case I plead guilty. |
| Dec. 1, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | OK. My email is joerinaldi56@yahoo.com and I promise not to reveal it or give to anyone but if you have a change of heart about contacting me it would make my day. I know we know each other through Norcal and it would be a positive and enriching thing all the way around, I do believe. Back to my answer. I have said though not repeatedly that there are a "few", a small minority of players like yourself who genuinely think the game is better slower and safer but again, don't kill the messenger, the great majority of us don't. Just being really smart puts you in the minority something I'm sure you've had to deal with all your life so it's nothing new for you but what works for the most people is the hallmark of democracy and it's you who must adjust and, for the record, you have because you still play with mikens and good balls. I will NEVER play with 52x275 balls and you can take that to the bank. A number of guys have made their views known not as nauseatingly repetitively as I have but very strongly and there will be a very meaningful exodus from NorCal or SSUSA if the BB combo goes south. I don't see it happening as don't most of the others but I like getting as many involved as possible to know what's happening and what can be done about it so no one gets blind-sided. |
| Dec. 1, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | And cheating would be taking unfair advantage over another in any context and I like the most of my softball playing friends, teammates and adversaries are not cheaters no matter what any rule or man made law might say. To make it clear if controversial rolling a bat to make it hotter which is what we do by hitting them in BP is not cheating to me either done by teammates or opponents. Broken in is broken in. The equation is still in balance. |
| Dec. 1, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | And I agree with you, OK and not like those pushing the new bat/ball combo that cheating can and must be dealt with by busting and punishing cheaters. That's how societies secure themselves so real growth, contest, learning and development can take place. |
| Dec. 1, 2010 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | There is NO DEMOCRACY in SOFTBALL any longer and its been decades since there was. If your looking for a type of "gov't" it would be closer to Totalitarian. A couple or others might fit the bill as well. You should know this, for when was the last time you had a vote or say on a rule or the like? Seven rule this place some assns are larger some smaller. But all controlled. |
| Dec. 2, 2010 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | taits and einstein, your perspective on the associations intrigues me. I have never dealt directly with them—I'm not even that familiar with some of them since I rarely travel out of state to play ball. My understanding is that these associations are formed to provide a reasonable profit, and they do this with the help of TDs, membership fees, and successful tournaments that they host. Whether they are responsive to rule changes or suggestions I am unclear about. I do think they are motivated by a desire to avoid costly lawsuits that might bankrupt them. That's why I am worried about last year's decision to force pitchers to sign a waiver if they refuse to armor themselves. Whether wearing protection or signing a waiver, it is a clear indication that SSUSA, for example, considers the speed of a batted ball as dangerous—very dangerous. By acknowledging that, they open themselves up for an opportunistic lawyer to file suit on behalf of a seriously injured player. Don't know an answer to the dilemma except to dumb down bats or balls or both. Maybe by returning to the standards of 10 years ago, they can be immune because those were considered to have only the normal risk of playing ball. And as one more bonus for einstein, I am not sure that rolling a bat is cheating. If it is considered "altering" the bat by the rules, then of course it is illegal, but I don't see the "cheating" advantage over the guy who hits a hundred or so to break in his bat. The cheating is by the bat manufacturer who lists the bat at 1.20 and knows that it is hotter once it is broken in. |
| Dec. 2, 2010 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | Omar, Your para #2, the changes that have been make the last say 3 years or even more were all in house decisions & 3 is close to the mark. SPA is the only one who may have afforded some real input to final decision making. Not sure how much was actually incorporated though. No vote by players is just how it is. NCSSA; at least they have a one time meeting a year where issues can be brought up, if those are asked for by the definitive time line and approved by the board. But the officers are mostly the same every year too. That can be good but as well as have a same ole same ole set up as it has been. Just changing seats or titles isn't any different. The same TD's run the same t's each year. Still the best of what's out there given the cost and distances. |
| Dec. 2, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Cheating in baseball/softball is called 'gamesmanship'. Phantom tags, sign-stealing, 'in the neighborhood' on double plays, spitballs, in softball flat pitches or high pitches or quick pitches, selling a catch on a ball that was trapped, these are all I suppose by some definition 'cheating' but have been going on for decades. This is not golf. They are all accepted, or at least understood and condoned. It is the umpires' job to catch those. |
| Dec. 2, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | not a one of those is cheating(except maybe the spitball),they are missed calls by an umpire,not the players fault the ump didn't catch it or pay close enough attention to the play..... rolling a bat is cheating,all assoc say so. omar rolling elongates the sweet spot,out beyond what normal bp would,so there is your advantage,going from a 3-5" SS for bp to a 6-9" SS on a bat by rolling it... |
| Dec. 2, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | mad dog, I tend to agree with you, but sounds like you might be amazed at the names I get called for doing anything beyond imitating a pitching machine. So I don't think all agree with how we view this. |
| Dec. 2, 2010 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | mad dog, thanks for the insight. Elongating a sweet spot beyond what batting practice can do would be cheating for an advantage. Are you sure that significant batting practice can't result in a larger sweet spot? Doesn't change my opinion that bat manufacturers are culpable when they know the bat will get hotter (as are associations until they learn to test bats after being broken in). |
| Dec. 2, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | tell me,i move all over the place even in ASA,just don't try and juke..LOL... omar,if you are good enough to hit the ball in different spots along the barrel,you could possible elongate the SS,but as batters we usually hit in the same area of the bat(hopefully the SS) and just break in a small area of the bat. |
