http://www.seniorsoftballstore.com

 
SIGN IN:   Password     »Sign up

Message board   »Message Board home    »Sign-in or register to get started

Online now: 1 member: billtgun; 90 anonymous
Change topic:

Discussion: Illegal Players!!

Posted Discussion
Sept. 21, 2005
Duke
Men's 60
708 posts
Illegal Players!!
When are we as players going to take a stand and not allow illegal players? Those running the tourneys do not care, even when they know of the violation. Maybe a disclaimer on all rosters turned in, would be of help. I guess if you pay $500 for a tourney, then you can do what you want, and the director will look the other way. Our team may or may not get a ring some day, but it will be by the "spirit of the game" by playing by the rules.
Sept. 22, 2005
TaterinGa
Men's 50
178 posts
HMMMMMM!!! Makes you wonder Duke: if someone will cheat with rosters; alter bats; they probably would buy a hot altered bat for their grandson in TeeBall. The only answer I can give you Duke is to do what I did about the con rule called the snowbird rule. I think this rule is a total disgrace & the TDs that allow this need to reevaluate because they are getting conned. I have sent my input to all organizations that I play in & have sent it to every ball player that I have an eeeeeeeeaddress & ask them to protest it. Sorry for whatever happened, but there are men over 50 that will do a lot of things to win a game; the problem is they have to face that man in the mirror every night & one day what goes around will come around 100 fold.

Duke: get to work & send out a sound letter to all the people you know, not in hate or malice, but do it business like & get them to send it to other players. Just my .02 worth.


Tater
I feel your pain & ever since I had the snowbird rule pulled on me & my team, I look at Senior ball in a Totally different light.
Sept. 22, 2005
Duke
Men's 60
708 posts
Thanks for taking the time to read and answer me. I did this in a positive way, when I looked the director(Terry) in the face after he had said something to the tune of, "glad that team lost, it made this situation go away" and I said, "it should not have been another team's responsibility and you should have thrown them out of the tournament." He mumbled whatever and walked away. Again, $$$$ speak. If I want a ring that badly, I can afford to order one. Rings do not mean anything anyway. One team in another division won a ring, and there were only 2 teams in that division. Big deal! All I want is to play teams in our division. That is an age old $$$$ problem.
Sept. 22, 2005
TaterinGa
Men's 50
178 posts
Duke: I still think that if you will make a general business letter & send it our to all of your friends; excluding any Association names, but use the general terms that you can get some help. If you look back at some of my comments you will see that I feel that a DL (driver's license) should match the assoc. ID card. If an assoc. does not have an ID card, then the DL could be cross referenced against other ID cards. If a DL is rigged then that is a State Offense. If the player is approached & will not produce his license, he is suspended; if it does not coincide with the ID card, he is suspended for life.......

Also, I am a firm believer in having all NEW assoc ID cards marked showing if a player is a Major or Major+ player. On an existing card, at the first qualifier, then the card is permanently marked. A CD could be easily compiled to list ALL Major players & sent to ALL ASSOC, then when a team tries to sandbag with a lot of major players to play in a lower division, then the list would be there to state that the majority of their team was major players. The Assoc would have to determine how many major players would be allowed on a lower classed team.

Remember seniors: this may not have hit you in 05', but somewhere down the road, if you do not help make a change, you will get Snowballed by something.


Tater
Sept. 22, 2005
Duke
Men's 60
708 posts
Hey Tator! It is not the list of names so much, but the lack of responsibility of who is running the tourney. Look under the "rules of the game" and you will see my answer from the director and mine to him.
Sept. 22, 2005
Duke
Men's 60
708 posts
To satisfy a few teams and some players that want to disgrace the "spirit of the game", the organization can do itself a better and more positive image(and more teams), if they if they would show severe positive action to violators of the game. At least I am not getting deleted anymore, for the moment. My last message got deleted, but they answered me this time.
Sept. 22, 2005
Duke
Men's 60
708 posts
I will be spreading the word verbally to every team I know and do not know. THIS WILL GET FIXED! Maybe we need a board of players from each level of play and must be elected by the players yearly.
Sept. 22, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Duke
I am really interested in exactly what did happen and with whom.
Need the whole story before it makes itself clear who was right and who was wrong.
Even the TD of an event can be wrong although they do have the final word.
Maybe something can be learned or done about it the next time it happens if we all know the entire story.
What ia curios about is did the other team know that they were doing wrong but acted like they did not know???
Please advise.
Thanks in advance.
Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports
Sept. 22, 2005
Duke
Men's 60
708 posts
Hi Mike!

The illegal players were discovered in the 55AAA division of the California Cup. It was Saturday morning that some players noticed that Russell Realty had 3 Major players. It was brought to the TD attention. I assume after confronting the team, he knew that these players were illegal. All he did was acknwledge it and gave all the legal teams an option to receive 5 additional runs or play 11 players on defense. We should not have to cope with their illegal players and throw them out of the tourney. On Sunday, Russell Realty lost, so the TD said he was relieved, but I told him that he should have done his job properly and thrown them out. He mumbled and walked away. That is the long and short of it.
Sept. 22, 2005
DMac
Men's 60
185 posts
MK39:
The word we got was that the three players were from your team.
The TD allowed them to play because supposedly Kelly's disbanded. As far as I know, no teams took the 5 runs or extra fielder. I know for a fact that Top Gun played Russell straight up. Russell went 1-4 and were gone.
Sept. 22, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Duke/DMac
Very interesting.
1st thing is that i have not disbanded my team at all, Kelly's Sports is done as a team for 2005 and everyone on my team knew it was just the 2 worlds this year for me due to the other assocaition being too restrictive towards ca. and fl.
I will come back in 2006 and play 4 worlds as Kelly's Sports.

Seeing how they turn out to be some of my players from this years team then they would also be Major Plus players your talking about, not just major players which is even worse if they played on a AAA team???

Right up front i would say that they should not have been allowed to play on a AAA Team and that the TD was 100% wrong if he let them even offering things like 5 runs or 11 players on defense.
The team in question must have cleared this with the TD in advance and it reminds me of the way the Snowbird rule is abused in advance with only the TD knowing he gave it his blessings and hoping that no one brings it up.
Any one going to Az. to play as the world turns ball???
Sorry to hear that this happened to you and i beleive you got a raw deal regardless of the outcome.
Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports 50 Major Plus
Sept. 22, 2005
TerryH
17 posts
For the record:

The three players on the Russell Real Estate 55 team at the California Cup WERE NOT illegal.

The three players were drafted from the Kelly 50 Major-Plus team and added to the AAA Roster.

The California Cup was also a qualifier this year. That means that teams can add LEGAL players to their roster and re-qualify with that roster. If the team, like Rusell Real Esatte adds impact players, they face the possibility of being raised in the ratings (from AAA to Major). As a matter of fact, I told the Russell Real Estate manager that if they used the California Cup Roster they would be Major and if they used their Reno Roster (without the Major-Plus Players) they would be AAA.

As a result of Russell Real Estate adding these players, we instituted an equalizer for the other teams (Russell had to give them 5 runs or 11 players). And, Russell Real Esatet didn't finish in the top of the AAA division.

Again, these players WERE NOT illegal.

If the players were illegal, meaning they falsified their ages, they would have been subject to permanent ban from the sport.

If the players were illegal because they were from the wrong region, or wrong age group, the Russell games would have been forfeit for the tournament.

I hope this answers your questions

Terry Hennessy
Sept. 22, 2005
KillAbrew
Men's 60
55 posts
Thanks TH, you explained this very well.
I for one do not see what else could be done.
Sept. 22, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
TerryH
I have another question based on your answer.
Will you let AAA teams pick up a minimum of 3 Major Plus players and compete at the AAA level at your worlds in Az. with the promise of having to be moved up 1 level for when?? next year.
The best move for you would have been to move the team up to at least your major bracket and play regular ball from there.
You would not let Bruce Walker play on a AAA team and he was only 1 Player?? You would have moved that team up right away to the next hgihest level not after the fact if Bruce Walker played on it.
Last year at the worlds in vegas, SSUSA took a team from my bracket = major plus because they could not compete in seeding games and moved them down 1 division, in the middle of a world tournament, you could not have moved this team up 1 division before it started?????
Thanks in advane
Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports 50 Major Plus
Sept. 22, 2005
SoCal'er
68 posts
MK
If I get this correct, the 3 players mentioned must be 55. Played on your 50 M+ team. They must pretty dominate playing in the 55 division.
SoCal'er
Sept. 22, 2005
DMac
Men's 60
185 posts
MK39:
Now you see why we laughed at the TD's explanation. SoCaler makes a good point. How could a 50 Major plus player be rated any lower in the 55 Division, regardless of his age.
Actually, we didn't care because we were playing AAA rules. The one-up rule somewhat negated the power advantage so it really wasn't an issue to us, which is why we played them straight up.
Sept. 22, 2005
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
609 posts
Tournament directors would not have such a rough time if players/teams were not so creative in their methods of trying to get one over just to try to win. From what I have read, this does not sound like the worst case that I have ever been aware of. Duke, I have been in your shoes, and it is hard to justify when you feel like you have been slighted. I will say that in all of my dealings with Terry that he has tried to be fair, and he worked with our team through a difficult situation when another association would not. At least he did communicate with you. Not everyone would; believe me. Last weekend in the SPA apparently a team was discovered to be too strong in the middle of the tournament and moved up right then. I was told that they were made to play the #1 seed as punishment. So it happens everywhere. Hopefully the LVSSA will be less eventful this year after the winning team used a player that was not old enough. I know of cases where a fake id was created to make a player old enough to play. I do not understand the mentality, but it happens too often.
Sept. 22, 2005
Walk
192 posts
Something smells fishy here. The Spa a member of the summit tells the KC AAA team if my name shows up on their roster then they are a major team. I was told the samething applies for SSWC which means I cannot play AAA in any association because the team will be forced to move up and yet three guys are allowed to play without the auto move up?

So here I sit not playing this year and others are allowed to move around as they wish. Make one wonder.
Walk
Sept. 22, 2005
Walk
192 posts
Post Script.
The USSSA 55 AAA 2005 world champs were not allowed to play in the SPA AAA worlds this year because they were told their world championship was against Major teams. Now remember they already booked their trip to Texas and the Major and Major Plus worlds were played in July. So they are sol on their air tickets.

So three guys decided to play on the local AA 60+ team (over half of the team that won the USSSA 55 AAA were 60+). They were moved up to AAA and of course did very bad. At the same time a 55 AAA team added two players from the USSSA champs and they were not moved up and yet if I play with this same team without the other two this team is forced to move up to major.

Is it me or are the rules being decided as season goes? Also wold like to know why a guy can call up a association head and tell him he is working in a certain state for two months and be allowed to play on a team outside of his area? And yet when I mention I have no place to play and was retired this year I was told tough luck.
Sept. 22, 2005
Duke
Men's 60
708 posts
Sorry Walk! I think you got the drift and shaft! Thanks for not playing where you are not supposed to. It is a start! Good luck finding a new team.
Sept. 22, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
SoCal'er
Bingo
they are and were 50 Major plus caliber players regardless of real age and they won a 50 major plus world with me to begin with this year.
You hit it right on the head.
Thanks
Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports 50 Major plus
Sept. 22, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Nancy Allen
I might be wrong here but i thought that hennesey said that players were locked on a roster after reno.
Should my players have been locked to my team seeing how we played 2 worlds together or just because i decide not to go to henneseys tournament they should be allowed to be free agents again same year???
That would mean that any other team could pick up my players for any other worlds that i dont choose to ge to??
I dont mind and neither would my players but is that really how it is supposed to work.
At least if it was not so obvious that a AAA team is loading up this might not have surfaced. If they played on a major plus team it would not have been so bad??
Thanks
Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports 50 Major Plus
PS you cant possibly know how a cheated ballplayer feels unless it happened to you and if it did then you must have felt cheated = right.
Thanks
Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports 50 major plus
Sept. 22, 2005
KillAbrew
Men's 60
55 posts
Walk, if you ever get old enough I will put you on my roster. You can live with me and use that address. You have snow and I do not. Ha ha ha
Sept. 22, 2005
Joncon
289 posts
Quit whining and play ball.

PS. Let Bruce play wherever he wants to.
Sept. 23, 2005
Robo2
222 posts
To be quite frank about all this. Many of us know who has illegal bats and we can see a team change it's name from one year to the next so they can play down and win. But by us sayin it here does no good because in the cases where it is deliberate, these individuals have no honor or integrity. However, their are cases where a player of Major plus quality plays on a major or AAA team because they are friends and play in leagues together (this is not the same). This would not be a problem if teams needed to submit a roster in 2 or 3 qualifiers and the team is now reated based on performance. This also avoids tournaments like DesMoines where a Major Plus team is forced into a lower bracket (or vice versa) based on a loss. Even though they did not want to be there.
Sept. 23, 2005
Duke
Men's 60
708 posts
In just over the past 24 hours, we have had almost 1300 views and many replies. Obviously, this is an issue that concerns everyone. Maybe we can open up the next manager's meeting to address this issue!? A written policy needs to be made between the players and SSUSA. I am open to all suggestions. Let's hear what you have to say. Let's make the policy and present some of our suggestions to SSUSA.
Sept. 23, 2005
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
609 posts
Mike, I guess that it depends if you consider one roster across all associations or not. I know that you can qualify with any association to get to the nationals, but I know that they all have different roster forms, and I know many teams take different people to different worlds. You well know that the regular associations (ASA, NSA, USSSA) have seniors as a small division, but I am sure that they really do not care who you took to a true senior qualifier. I did not list ISA, but it seems like they are a little more in touch with the senior program although we only play it with FHC. I think that your players were legal based on what I have read, but it would have been nice if they had mentioned it to you to keep you from being blindsided here.
Sept. 23, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Nancy Allen
Thanks for the well thought out response. You do know what your talking about.

After my last worlds in Des Monies 3 weeks ago i released some players in question from next years team as i am rebuilding it some.

I suspect those are the players or ex players that we are talking about and i would not expect them to ask for my blessings from that point on.

It was not a questions of who's players they are, it was a question of the caliber of player and if the team should have been made to play 1 division higher with them and i believe the answer to that question is without a doubt YES
IMO
Thanks
Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports 50 Major Plus
Sept. 23, 2005
Ken
Men's 55
462 posts
Joncon

You say quit whining to the people that are just trying to help this organization to play by THEIR OWN rules. Maybe weíll hear some whining out of you when you get cheated, huh? I would be perfectly happy playing without the classifications and best team wins. But we have these classifications, and why canít we expect our fellow competitors to have the integrity to follow the rules. I say if Terry canít make penalties for cheating tough enough to hurt the teams that do it, then abolish the ratings and best team wins. Thatís what usually happens anyway. But he wonít do that because SSUSA makes more money if more teams enter tournaments. I think everyone is concerned here because if this continues teams will stop going to tournaments and move to another organization that will probably pop up. Terry, get on top of this now, check the rosters before Phoenix, and give us a reason to think that you care more about us than the bottom line. As always, thanks for listening.
Sept. 23, 2005
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2646 posts
I was told by SPA that once you play in a National tournament of a Summit Association, your roster is frozen. I believe this is the rule that the Summit associations passed last winter. I now understand that the individual Summit associations had already had their meetings before the Summit meeting. This means that the rule won't take effect until 2006.
Maybe Ridge Hooks, TH or RB will correct me if I am wrong.
Sept. 23, 2005
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
609 posts
Mike, I agree with you, but he sure did not start the controversy, and it is a darn shame that he could not play for an hour. I don't see the heads of any other associations loving senior softball enough to actually be in the trenches/dugouts with us. I am glad that he plays. If we had a women's team here, I would play too; instead I am lucky enough to hang out with the guys. Senior softball is as good as it gets in the softball world.
Sept. 23, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Nancy Allen
I hear you and i normally dont look to deprive anyone of playing but in his case it is tought to serve 2 masters and keep em both happy.
IMO
Thanks i enjoyed the conversation.
Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports 50 Major Plus
Sept. 23, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
BruceinGa
It will be the old classic of saying one thing but doing another.
Now it sounds like little league baseball with 1 team drafting off of another team???
I will have exactly the team and tournaments ready when i pop back out in 2006 so please no one bother me anymore until then.
Kelly's Sports i done until 2006 and i am not responisble for any one that played for me from this point on, that will be left up to the TD'S at whatever events they happen to show up at of there own choice.
I am out and want to relax now.
Thanks
Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports 50 Major Plus
Sept. 23, 2005
Duke
Men's 60
708 posts
Between the "Snowbird" and "illegal Players" topics, it is very clear what is a concern to many, huh?
Sept. 23, 2005
TaterinGa
Men's 50
178 posts
After being with Faith Electric from 99-02; I prayed & started JAH Masters in 03'. In 04', I was sent a National Frozen Roster Form that I had to return to all associations. I did not send it to SSWC because we were not going to play there. I could not add any more players after 6/15. I went to several Nationals with only 10 or 11 players cause my roster was frozen. Many major + teams added players per National Tourney, but I did not & I did not protest them except in one case & the TD would not let me view their roster (I was helpless without being able to see their roster). I got down to 9 players & the SPA allowed me to pick up other players, but I had to have a written form from their coach that the team had disbanned. I think my team & one other team were the only two teams that kept the same roster at multiple Nationals.


Tater
PS We can make a difference if we keep discussing these vital points; this is OUR game.
Sept. 24, 2005
Joncon
289 posts
I want to play in a pirate assocation with no classifications other than age. So you have an opposing player who hits HR's ever time at bat. Walk him. (get it....WALK him...Brucw Walker...Walk....) never mind, that was dumb. but my point should be clear.

There is entirely too much bitching and moaning going on in softball. I guess that's the way it has always been and the way it always will be.

Less regulation=more fun

But, that's just me. I have always had trouble "fitting in".
Sept. 26, 2005
Duke
Men's 60
708 posts
I guess the board was quiet for the weekend. All I can say now is to email Terry with your suggestions and bring it up at the manager's meeting.
Sept. 27, 2005
Duke
Men's 60
708 posts
Over 2000 views and many replies. Wonder what is on everyone's mind and how it effects them. Rememeber, till we get it in writing, walk the illegal players. They will not like it.
Sept. 27, 2005
Corky
Men's 55
446 posts
The SPA Nationals in Plano issued wrist bands with an identifying number at registration. I thought that was a pretty good idea, but they never checked them again the whole weekend. they should have been checked before every game
Oct. 2, 2005
stever
Men's 65
62 posts
One point to consider. Each association is a separate, individual business entity. If they enforced a "one roster for all associations" rule they could be in violation of federal anti-trust regulations. I, for one, don't believe they need to have a "one roster" rule; however, I do believe they need to enforce the existing roster rules within each organization. Finally, it is sad that senior softball has become so corporate and that cheating has become so prevalent. This was supposed to be fun.
Oct. 2, 2005
T.Burk
48 posts
There needs to be a clarification to an earlier comment wregarding Bruce Walker. Bruce has been OKayed to play in Phoenix with the Kansas AAA team he plays with. According to Terry H. in the SSWC, teams are classified not players. Therefore Bruce has been on my roster since the beginning of the year. Bruce's work schedule and family obligations have sidelined him as far as his not playing tournament ball this season with us and not because Terry's organization threatened to make us move up frommAAA to major. The SPA, on the other hand, has said that he is a rated major + player and would not allow him to play with us unless we moved to major from AAA. I have spent a great deal of time finding organizations that have player friendly rules and Terry Hennesy and The SSWC have been very good to me and to my team. We will be in Phoenix in October playing AAA and we will be playing without Bruce, because he isn't available that weekend and not because Terry said we would have to move up if he came with us.
Oct. 3, 2005
JTS2
Men's 55
88 posts
Being player friendly is still cheating if the player is illegal. I don't have any problem as long a sthe tournament director lets everyong know players are being added to teams against the rules. Again why have rules on adding players if you are not going to enforce them. I guess rules are only for honest teams. If your team adds a player for the world and he is not in the next age group then you are cheating. Even if you have the tournament directors permission it is still cheating and you are a cheater. Any team that wins a world tournament with illegal players should be branded cheater and whenever their name is mentioned the word cheater should be included in all conversations. .
Oct. 6, 2005
Duke
Men's 60
708 posts
Be aware of all the cheaters in this LVSSA this weekend. Might be the reason there are not as many teams in our division.
Sign-in to reply or add to a discussion or post your own message and start a new discussion. If you don't have a message board account, please register for a free nickname. It will only take a moment.
Senior Softball-USA
Phone: (916) 326-5303
Fax: (916) 326-5304
2701 K Street, Suite 101A
Sacramento, CA 95816
Send us e-mail
Senior Softball-USA is dedicated to informing and uniting the Senior Softball Players of America and the World. Senior Softball-USA sanctions tournaments and championships, registers players, writes the rulebook, publishes Senior Softball-USA News, hosts International Softball Tours and promotes Senior Softball throughout the world. More than 1.5 million men and women over 40 play Senior Softball in the United States today. »SSUSA History  »Privacy policy

Follow us on Facebook

Partners