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Discussion: Courtesy Runner Positive & Negative Views

Posted Discussion
Dec. 18, 2010
Tater50
336 posts
Courtesy Runner Positive & Negative Views
I'd like input from members of the SSUSA or SPA that pay for their membership: if you do not care enough about SSUSA/SPA to join & support the cause & never attend SSB tourneys & spend thousands of dollars like the rest of us, please do not comment:
Please give your positive or negative comments about courtesy runners.

My Positive Comments: the rule should remain the same. Myself, if there had been NO courtesy runners allowed, when I had knee surgery, I would not have been able to play for a couple of years. I could hit the ball hard & could EH, but could only trot to first base.

Remove the CR, I'd be out of the game & also the thousands of dollars that I'd of spent for 2 years. There are many that have been in this same position: heart attacks, knees, etc!!

Your thoughts
Tater50
Dec. 18, 2010
ShaneV
Men's 55
381 posts
I like to courtesy run and when a knee flares up be run for. In Phoenix in 2009 we saw a number of teams with rabbits. They played little and ran bases every inning. A great way to manage a larger roster. It can be used very strategically. If you don't use it you could pay the price. Playing 4-5 games in a day in a Championship event (losers bracket) we are going to run out of gas. I've seen runners decline. That's when you know your're in trouble!

I would say avoiding force-outs at 2nd and scoring from 2nd are the key benefits of using runners and those who slide effectively are especially valuable.

ShaneV
Dec. 18, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
personally i don't like CR's,but do know they are a necessary evil.i just don't like the rabbit just doing the running when perfectly able bodied players can still run,no injury,just slow that's all.

i say use it only once/twice an inning and it has to be someone coaching at first already.also if a pitch is thrown they loose their chance of a CR,or if on the original hit the batter gets to 2b.
Dec. 19, 2010
leftyfalcon
Men's 65
158 posts
I think they abuse it. It doesn't if someone a health problem but some times use 2 or 3 guys to run for everyone on the team. I can see if the game is on the line.
Dec. 19, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4337 posts
It's a part of the game injured or not. As far as over used... depends on ones strategy used in the game. How about the teams pitchers who walk someone to get to another player of to make possible double plays more possible or afraid of him knocking one out of the park? Its the same deal. Put in a rabbit, as some are or more efficient runner for a better chance of scoring.
Leave the game alone far too many things keep changing as it is now, why add to the screw-ups?
I use them on occasion as well. Sometimes not asked for and occasionally I have asked for one.
Dec. 19, 2010
Tater50
336 posts
Good Points: There are teams that have some guys that are used mainly as CRs; maybe that gives them an edge; but if these guys are pleased with their roles, so be it. If the CRs were eliminated or partially limited, then these guys would not be able to contribute to SSB; memberships would be lost & the funds that these guys spend to visit tourneys would be subtracted. Drop in attendance/loss of revenue!!

So; I think the CR rule should stay in place, because of age, most of us are going to go thru a spell of injuries or surgeries that will limit our running ability & if the rule was repealed, then we would be giving the wife a hard time at home; plus the honey do list would get monotonous.

Tater50
John (Member of SSUSA/SPA for 10 years)
Dec. 19, 2010
Hippe
Men's 50
13 posts
The CR is a good idea for guys who can`t run but still want to play, just have the person who is running to be ready, somethimes it takes too long for them to get on the base causing a delay in the game. Also someone who legs a single into a double and then calls for a runner, shouldn`t happen sorry
Dec. 19, 2010
Omar Khayyam
988 posts
I would disagree with mad dog about no CR for a guy who makes it to second. I have a hitter on my team who turns home runs (in front of the fence) into doubles because he is so crippled up. Needs a CR.

CRs for guys who are injured or have chronic health problems has allowed many, many guys to keep playing—our catcher every game, our first baseman some games, our third baseman, some games. I like the CR for these guys.

But boy can it be abused! Was playing for an important championship one year and we were neck and neck with the other team, lead changing almost every inning. Then they started to pull ahead. They were using five different courtesy runners for every slow guy who made it to first. I wouldn't have minded if the runners were on their bench, or even batted, but they were actually from an older team who were double rostered and were playing down on the team beating us. Seemed a bit unfair to give these guys a medal for runners who never played another game with the winning team, nor were on the primary roster, nor ever came to bat, but were on an older team that finished their tournament play earlier.
Dec. 19, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
omar exactly what i'm saying(about the abusers of the CR)is the example you have given.my thing on the 2b,is that they were able to get there,they should be able to hobble home,might take 2 basehits,but hey teamates need to hit also.
Dec. 19, 2010
Player25
Men's 55
51 posts
First let me state, I understand why a courtesy runner may be needed for certain players. However, I believe it gives a big advantage to teams that have the ability to bring "rabbits" to run for every slow player. Part of winning to me, is the stamina it takes to play 5,6,7, ... games. Running for yourself takes a lot of energy. If another team has "rabbits", the player in the game exerts much less energy, thus the advantage. I have the same arguement for "hit and sit" on homeruns. A team that has the ability to hit a considerable number of homeruns get to rest their players versus a team that base hits and runs the bases. This is especially noticable on Sundays when the hr hitters have been run for when they did not hit an hr. This is one reason why I think excess home runs need to be outs. As to courtesy runners, I feel there should be 1-2 per inning but the players should be designated to the umpire before the game except in the case of an injury during the players turn at bat.
Dec. 19, 2010
grumpy55
Men's 60
102 posts
Player, I agree with you and would add this, I have seen crs put in at third base with less then 2 outs to score on a sac fly or an infield ball. As someone else said, the runner if need be, should be replaced before the next pitch to the next batter. That would speed game up and maybe some teams would not be able to abuse it as much.
Dec. 19, 2010
pushin60
Men's 60
63 posts
I think that in order to be able to run for someone you should be in the line-up. Having a guy, whose only value to the team is as a runner once per inning, is against the spirit of the game. If you want to bat extra people in order to take advantage of their speed and conditioning as a runner, then that would be okay. I really can’t imagine anyone wanting to travel to a tournament just to run the bases. It’s coming too close the Einstein’s concept of platooning that everyone laughed at a few years ago.
Dec. 19, 2010
garyheifner
352 posts
I believe in the CR, especially when you get to the older guys. We made it to the finals in SPA in Plano and a team had 14 guys on Saturday and 22 on Sunday. They CRed one of the x-tras for every hitter who reached base and it proved to be the difference as we were down to 10 who could at least walk to 1st. Just an idea.

1. A CR can only be a player who is in the game (starting line-up). (except as in 2 below)

2. If a non starter CRs, he enters offically for that player as a sub. The team can then use the re-entry rule to put the starter back in. Thus, that CR (runner/xtra player) is done for the game. In short, he will only be able to CR one time and can not enter the game as a player/hitter.

3. Now, I know someone will say, what if a starter is taken out of the game, can he then CR. Nope, he is done.

Dec. 20, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Throwing arms get worse with age too, so let's stop the game so the speedy weak-throwing shortstop or left centerfielder can hand the ball to someone to throw for him.

WAAAAYY too many guys who are perfectly healthy but fat, lazy, and slow get a 'courtesy' runner. What a joke!
Dec. 20, 2010
CallaVett
Men's 50
40 posts
I like being able to use CR but I believe the rules could be modified to make the use of CR a strategic part of the game plan.

1. Designate 1 or 2 players as having the use of a CR.

2. Limit the use of CR to 1/inning with the exception the designated players (who always must use the CR or lose it).

3. The CR must be in the line-up.
Dec. 20, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
"strategic"??? Courtesy as a strategy.

This game isn't that complicated, little girls used to play it and even they have now evolved to fast-pitch.

If you can't run, you can't play. Maybe harsh, but good God it's only slow-pitch.

Anyone like my idea of courtesy throwers?
Dec. 20, 2010
Capt Kirk
402 posts
I personally don't like the CR, and I will not have a player on the roster just to be a CR. I would agree that they are situations where a CR is justified, but I would also agree it slows down the game and some teams use far too many CR. I would suggest that limit the # of CR per inning, one per team per inning, that would keep the game moving.
Dec. 20, 2010
CallaVett
Men's 50
40 posts
"Strategic" YES!!! The NCAA women's softball allows for "special pinch-runners" or did you forget about that part of the game that the little girls play.
Dec. 20, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
I do know about that, but that game is MUCH more sophisticated and difficult than what we play. Not even close.
Dec. 20, 2010
JBTexas
Men's 60
260 posts
As a team with a couple of power hitters but alot of speed, I like the rule, it gives us a chance to play with the big boys. We won the SPA National championship(60AAA) with out a single HR, we had four guys hurt that were limited at best, if we could CR we don't win. Teams with speed like the CR, those who don't have it don't, it's simple.
Dec. 20, 2010
The real deal
Men's 60
63 posts
Maybe a good way to stop the abuse of this rule (putting in a rabbit in a run scoring situation) is to have each team designate which player(s) needs a courtesy runner before the game starts. I know a few excellent players with new knees and hips that have been instructed by their doctor to limit their running.
Dec. 20, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
I remember the first time I saw courtesy runnes many years ago it had to be the guy who made the last out.

Not sure that is perfect, but it sure beats letting the team just pick some jackrabbit to do all/most of the running.
Dec. 20, 2010
Capt Kirk
402 posts
I would advocate what is best for all teams, not just for an individual or a team that has a couple of power hitters that require having a CR assigned to those hitters. Let's keep the game moving, I know that I am tired of waiting around for a team to figure who is going to be their CR. Let's play a seven (7) inning game, just to many instances of CR slowing the game down.
Dec. 20, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Capt., you are exactly correct. Just NO need for them. If you cannot run, don't play until you are healed or lose enough weight to be able to move.

If all of these guys cannot run the bases, how do they play defense? There are only so many EHs and catchers.
Dec. 20, 2010
Tater50
336 posts
Dirty: Are you a member of the SSUSA or SPA?
Dec. 20, 2010
southpaw
Men's 60
733 posts
I personally like the idea of courtesy runners, however, I do believe that some modifications in rules should be made. The reason for modifications is because of abuse (my team is probably guilty at times) and delay of game.
As much as possible, I always try to spread out those who need help and those who can assist, as well as have them prepared by already being at 1B coaching when the inning starts.
The bottom line for me is whether we are going to be elitist in our approach and eliminate a large number of potential players who do not measure up to our standards or are we going to be more ecumenical and reach more in order to grow senior softball.
Dec. 20, 2010
Mr. Manassas
225 posts
The CR was another great idea for Senior softball. It allowed for a more gracious way to deal with old age and all the problems associated with it. I
am somewhat bias in that I have had both knees replaced
Dec. 20, 2010
Tater50
336 posts
Mr. Manassas: good point; anything can be abused. How many guys have had open heart surgery; knees, hips & are limited to a little action; not full speed. These guys love the game & should be able to come & participate.

I agree the CR can be abused, but I still can see many guys being able to play & contribute. If you are allowed 20 players on the roster; then it is legal.

“Fat, Lazy Runners, don't play until you are healed or lose enough weight to be able to move.”: Dirty: you are talking about guys that are old & this is what they survive every winter for.

Some of the time it is not fat, lazy, but hereditary. I had a St Bernard & a Great Dane; bought them as puppies; the GD ate 2 X the amount of the SB; yet the SB had 1 ˝” of fat all over his body; the GD barely ˝”. No diet could make the SB as lean or as fast as the GD; but the SB could go ALL day at a regular pace. Just hereditary! It is not so much fat or lazy players; its just hereditary.

I played w/a guy this year that was 8" shorter than me; ate 4 X what I ate in a day; slender as could be; me I struggle w/weight; Mom ate a lot, Daddy ate fast, did not have a chance!!!

I think the CR rule should stay in place & anyone on the roster should be able to be a CR: take them out of the Pic & SSB loses a lot of players/members.

Tater50
Dec. 20, 2010
hitman
Men's 65
299 posts
I think the next time we have a post just have DIRTY do all the negative views as that seems to be his speciality. Don't mind him not agreeing but he doesn't like anything about SENIOR SOFTBALL and SENIOR RULES.
Obviously he's never had to battle with weight or injuries. For many years I ran every inning and sometimes twice, once for me and once as a CR. Now injuries will be limiting me after 2 knee surgeries and two back surgeries. I guess according to DIRTY I shouldn't play any more.
I thought that's why SENIOR SOFTBALL was started, to give the older, overweight, often injuried a league to compete in.

The Hitman
Dec. 20, 2010
Tater50
336 posts
Hitman: I am like you about the knees. I had my 2nd one in 12/05: played most of 05' tip toeing to 1B; I stroked pretty good, but was worthless for anything else.

In 06' after the surgery: I picked up with Bill G as a backup; was worthless most of the year; but I came to the tourneys & participated; it would have crushed me to have spent my summer not playing ball: the CR rule allowed me to attend.

Tater50
Dec. 20, 2010
Davy
12 posts
Played senior softball for 25 years. Now on 75 roster.
Designate up to 2 players before game who will require courtesy runner. Takes care of unique cases.
Also allow 1 additional courtesy runner per inning who is in starting lineup or will be sub.
requires some strategy in batting order planning or situation. Perfect for older teams, 70 plus or AAA /AA teams who usually won't bring rabbits only to a tournament.
If the young guys or Major Plus/Major want unlimited CR's and rabbits only to compete, then knock yourself out.
PS I declined to go to The World Championships with a 60's major team as a rabbit only. What a joke.

Dec. 20, 2010
surf88
Men's 60
869 posts
T50: Give me a call. Want to talk about the bat we discussed. Ed 728-3144
Dec. 20, 2010
DMac
Men's 60
185 posts
In the championship game in Phoenix this year, I ran eight times in six innings. I also played the outfield for seven innings, made worse by the fact that we played a five man infield for half the game. If they ever get rid of the CR, the loudest cheer will come from me.
By the way, I can count on one hand the amount of times I have been able to beat a force play at second base. If you are a manager who likes to use rabbits, give "Bugs" a break and don't put him in until the hippo reaches second base.
Dec. 21, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Yes, I belong to both organizations.

Hitman, I have 'battled' surgery to both knees, bone spurs in both shoulders and both elbows, a torn rotator cuff, arthritis in both kneeds, and 2 1/2 months of chemo and radiation and another two months of after-effects in 2008 for oral cancer. Lost 40 pounds in two months thanks to a feeding tube down my nostril into my intestines so I could "eat". Enough battle for you?

Yet I am in the gym 5 days a week in the off-season and usually twice in season so that I can perform ALL required aspects of the simple game of slow-pitch softball without any assistance from teammates. I do that for my health (always have), I do it for my appearance (yes, I like having a 45" chest, 36" waist, and 17" arms at 54 years old), and I do it to become a better player.
Dec. 21, 2010
southpaw
Men's 60
733 posts
Dear Dirty, Sir, obviously you are to be admired and respected for all that you have endured and conquered. Sincerely, hats off to you. It took great inner fortitude, determination, and a strong desire to accomplish a return to your health.
However, that does not mean that there is still not room for everyone else who through their own particular struggles and difficulties still want to participate in senior softball. That may be their desire in spite of their need for some measure of assistance.
That's why I voted for an ecumenical approach rather than one of elitism. God bless you is my prayer; may your health remain.
Dec. 21, 2010
pushin60
Men's 60
63 posts
Hey Gary, having 17” arms must come in handy when it’s time to pay the check, lol.
Dec. 22, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1964 posts
Hey DMac-Pursuant to rule #8.4 (1) on page 62----"Any player on the roster and present may be a courtesy runner if listed on the Official Lineup. A courtesy runner may be used for a base runner at any time, but the same courtesy runner MAY NOT BE USED MORE THAN ONCE PER INNING. Any courtesy runner found running more than once per inning will be called out".
Let's do the math here-you ran 8 times in 6 innings. HMMMMMM-that appears to be more than once an inning, and in the championship game, no less. HMMMMMM-this is a serious infraction. Absolutely EGREGIOUS to flaunt the rules like that. SSUSA are you watching??? I think they should be TOTALLY stripped of their final position in the tournament and , in addition, they need to forfeit 3 of their draft picks for the next 3 years as punishment for courtesy runner abuse. PLUS, they should have to buy the first round for all the SSUSA staff at their next tournament!!!
Dec. 22, 2010
zonk
56 posts
I believe DMac means that he ran once an inning as a DR; and, his official at bats. Thus, if a batter comes to the plate 4x; he potentially could run eleven (11), times in a game.
Dec. 22, 2010
The real deal
Men's 60
63 posts
Wow, Dirty! 45" chest? 36" waist? 17" arms? Very impressive! In my mind I picture you as another Paul Teuttle Sr. (of American Chopper fame). I can't remember the last time, if ever, that I measured myself, except for my weight, blood pressure, and cholesteral...

To keep in shape I do a few 12 ounce curls, especially in the parking lot after games!
Dec. 22, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
After getting some technical difficulties resolved (thanks Maggie), this is "Dirty" back at least for now using my old sign-on.

Sorry about the rant about my 'battles' and current condition. I just get ticked off sometimes (yea I know, imagine that) when someone who has never seen or known me wants to make poor assumptions.

I don't like it, but suppose I could live with CRs for guys who really need it. But others have also commented about the guys who can leg out a double looking just fine if not a bit fat/out of shape/slow/lazy and then need a courtesy runner who is always significantly faster than him.

If we have to have this rule, then why not go back to using the last guy who made an out? Then the whole silly thing cannnot be rigged.

Dec. 22, 2010
DMac
Men's 60
185 posts
You're right Zonk. I ran four times for myself and four times as a CR. In the 2001 World's 50 AAA Championship game between SoCal Gusto and Stoneage (starring Mad Dog), I was a CR seven times and scored seven runs, which I always claim is a World Record when we are drinking beer in the parking lot.
I have also been thrown out at all four bases in the same game three times, which may also be a record.
Dec. 22, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1964 posts
DMac-just had my tongue in my cheek-it wasn't hard to figure out. Wonder what the record really is for runs scored in a game counting AB's and CR's?
Dec. 22, 2010
zonk
56 posts
I play 65+; and, usually leadoff. I get to CR a lot too. It does wear you out. Plus, guys in this age group have bad knees about 60%. Being an OF, I am really tired at the end of the day.
Dec. 22, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
zonk, do you run for guys who legitimately can't (in which case, what defensive positions can they possibly play. There are only so many EHs and catchers) or just guys slower than you?
Dec. 22, 2010
miken60
2 posts
I don't like it. I run every inning every game. I am the only ne on the team that slides. Play the game the way it was intended. Hit, run, score.
Dec. 22, 2010
zonk
56 posts
Gary: Most of the guys cannot run. But, as Mike60 states this is getting old (and I am already old). It took its toll last year: groin, hammy, & quad issues. Sometimes, there are 3 or 4 EHs in a game. I still run well for my age (67). This year, I will only go with the game on the line; as I play ~ 200 games per year.
Dec. 23, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
yep i still think,as long as they are ok to run(not just slow)players should be running for themselves.i have gotten in to it with players about this,it was "but so and so is slow",so what,get 2 hits and get him in.
Dec. 23, 2010
Capt Kirk
402 posts
We played in four (4) SSUSA Qualifiers in Texas, hot. I had four (4) players on my roster that required CR's, won't happen in 2011. The CR's had not left in the tank after playing/running for three (3) or four (4) games. I will carry only one (1) player that will require a CR, unfortunately I will have only twelve (12) players on my roster. Injuries during a game, that require a CR, is a whole different ballgame
Dec. 23, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
701 posts
I have received runners for several reasons. This will leave me open for fire with Pushin 60 and DMac. LOL! The 3 main reasons that I get runners is 1) I was hurt pretty much the entire year with nagging injuries, 2) the last several years, players run for me, so I can avoid getting hurt, as I am the primary pitcher, and 3) because so many think they are faster than me, which in some instances is correct. Now that I am completely healthy, I ran for myself most of my last tournament, and stretched 4 singles in a row into 4 doubles. Let's see you do that Pushin 60! LOL!

I do not have time to read all of the posts before this one, but am making this comment to express another more important point, besides players that should be running for themselves, especially if, they are playing defense. My main point is talk about wasting precious game time. We could probably get another inning in without all this courtesy runner garbage. If this was said before, then I agree with it too.

Just My Opinions!

Andy Smith
Dec. 23, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
mad dog, that is exactly the issue.

Duke, at our age we are all subject to injuries. Prevention is just NOT a reason to have runners when you are healthy.

And how often are those runners slower than you? I hope every time.
Dec. 23, 2010
hitman
Men's 65
299 posts
Dirty,
Glad to hear that you have been able to overcome all your battles and still continue to play. Just remember there are a lot that for various reasons beyond their control, can't or won't be able to overcome there injuries regardless of what they do, but they still love to play the game and contribute where that can.

God Bless all with Injuries and All our Military Men and Women along with their Families who miss them deeply.

The Hitman
Dec. 23, 2010
pushin60
Men's 60
63 posts
Gary, there are NO runners slower than him.

And Andy, what's a single?
Dec. 23, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
hitman, thanks.

I know guys have issues, and that I am far from the only one who has. And if a guy really, really, really needs a runner I might go with that. But I am sure you have seen guys running just fine who get one because the CR might be a pinch faster. That is just NOT in the spirit of the rule, AT ALL.

Why not go to the last out is the next CR? That would help the injured guy without making a farce of the rule and the game.
Dec. 23, 2010
OTE24
Men's 65
122 posts
Gary/Dirty,
In Andy's defense,his manager is the one who used the CR for him. I don't
remember Andy asking off the base at anytime. It's not always the players decision to be CR'd. It's the rule and you're correct,it is taken advantage of
too often. When I make a lineup I consider who will be running in certain
situations. I think you're correct that the last out should be the runner.
It would be less wear and tear on guys
like DMAC. Change the rule. DMac's world records will stand forever.

John
John
Dec. 23, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
John, doing it that way would result in FAR fewer CRs and quicker games since most of the time a CR is used it is ONLY to get a faster guy out there, and if you went to having to use the last out there would not nearly be the certainty that a faster guy would be coming in.
Dec. 23, 2010
OTE24
Men's 65
122 posts
You are correct,Sir!
Dec. 23, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
So given that, and the desire everyone seems to have to speed up games, why not go to that rule?

Just makes sense to me. Who could possibly object without exposing that they have and will continue to abuse the spirit of the rule?
Dec. 23, 2010
Duke
Men's 60
701 posts
Hi John and Pam,

Since you are unable to be reached by phone or email at this time, I will wish you both a Merry Christmas and very Happy and Safe New Year's!! Great to play with you this season and not against you! Enjoy your new home and have a super 2011!! Hope your kneee operation is healing well!!

Your Friend,

Andy
Dec. 23, 2010
OTE24
Men's 65
122 posts
Thanks Andy,back at ya! Knee's 90%and getting better. Doc is impressed with rehab. Good kuck on finding a team.
John
Dec. 23, 2010
JBTexas
Men's 60
260 posts
Spirit of what rule. If you have speed use it just, if we can use Senior bats, then using runner's is no different. I agree that the runners should ready as soon as a hitter get to base in question. Game is so geared towards the home run hitters, that changing this rule would enforce that. We had numerous time that a CR beat a throw to second to keep innings going and ended up winning a game. As a coach and a CR I would vote not to change the rule.
Dec. 23, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
The spirit of the COURTESY runner rule. What courtesy is involved in allowing a team to replace a fat/lazy/slow guy with someone who must take care of himself better?

You must be new here, many others can tell you what I think of the lack of pride in Senior softball that allows us to use the special bats.

How about if we allow courtesy throwers for slick fielding shortstops whose arms aren't what they used to be?
Dec. 23, 2010
JBTexas
Men's 60
260 posts
I'm new only been playing senior softball 12 years, and everyone knows you dislike everything about senior ball my only question why do you play. There many other options for you but you seem hell bent on changing the game most of us love. A lot of those fat/lazy/slow guys are some great guys who still love the game.
Dec. 23, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Actually I am looking to get closer back to the game we all fell in love. with. The game without time limits, run limits, pitcher's boxes, mats, second home plates, bogus courtesy runners, pitcher's looking like hockey goalies, and special bats that no one else is allowed to use.

My how society has fallen when we all have to pay a price for fat/lazy/slow guys. :( And if they do 'need' a runner, then fine let them use the guy who made the last out. Why does it have to be a handpicked rabbit?
Dec. 23, 2010
JBTexas
Men's 60
260 posts
Gary, Sr. Softball has never the game you are talking about, the game you want is call Sr. Baseball. As for paying for the fat/lazy/slow guys welcome to Amercia as we know it today. Have a Great Christmas and a Happier New Year.
Dec. 23, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
JB, why does 'Sr. Softball' have to be different than 'regular' softball? After all, it is a pretty simple game that little girls used to play until even they progressed to fast-pitch.

Yea, I guess we all have been paying for the fat and lazy in many ways for many years now. Great point!

Happy holidays to you too. :)
Dec. 24, 2010
JBTexas
Men's 60
260 posts
Gary I think the difference is called gravity, what goes up(Age)must come down(speed,chest now belly,etc.). Most of our players can't play the game we did at 30, so it is changed to off-set gravity. Don't remember whether it was Newton or Einstein who say it.
Dec. 24, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
I understand that. But the problem is the rules that we now need to accommodate the special bats that guys insist on using so they can do things many of them weren't doing in their 30s. Like hitting home runs with the R&D and technology of others.
Dec. 24, 2010
Tater50
336 posts
Gary & Others: lets "remove" the idea of fat/slow/lazy guys from the pic. Now each of you rewind the mind & think of how many guys on your team that would "not" be able to participate in SSB if the CR rule was removed?


Tater50
Dec. 24, 2010
titanhd
Men's 50
324 posts
Hate the CR rule and agree with Gary 19.CR takes away from the game.If one can walk up to the plate, hit and get to first base (injuries aside)you ought to be able to complete your "time at bat" which includes running the bases.
The Courtesy Rule and the 5 run per inning are the worst two rules ever contribed.
Dec. 24, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
John, the guys who wouldn't be able to perhaps shouldn't be anyway. After all, if you can't run the bases for yourself how in the world do you play defense? Who wants a team of catchers and EHs?

And so fine, let these guys have a runner. The LAST
Dec. 24, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Meant to finish with let the last out run, NOT some handpicked rabbit off the bench.

Tater, what would be wrong with that? It would reduce the scamming that now goes on.
Dec. 24, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
titan is correct. No one wants to work to earn anything anymore.

I get on base, I let someone faster score for me. Why should I earn the run?

I can't get 3 outs, I just give up 5 runs and I get to bat. Why should I earn my ups?

Just not right.
Dec. 24, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
CR's for injured players only,is my view on this subject.just b/c your don't run fast anymore why do you need to have someone run for you as long as your able bodied.i have seen some get a runner than go to the outfield to play defense,why.i'm not the fastest guy around(do run smart tho) and hate the CR,i do not take it unless i'm actually hurt,or lose the argument with my coach to let someone faster run.
yes there are guys with replacement parts that need runners,but don't use that just to get a rabbit in the gam,like i've said before,you make it past first you don't need a runner,IMO.
Dec. 24, 2010
Tater50
336 posts
I have "0" problems with the CR being the last out; but I still think if you critique the rule to that degree in "All" classes; there will be quite a lot guys that will not be able to participate in SSB.

There are lots of guys that are so-so batters, that are 2nd stringers; that attend SSB cause they love the game & comraderie; that get into the game if their team is blowing out the other team or being a CR; & they feel fine in being able to contribute by assisting others by being the CR; some of these guys are fast; some are mediocre!!

Too severe adjustment to the CR rule will eliminate a lot of guys.

Maybe, the best way is to poll all the players!!!

Tater50
Dec. 24, 2010
Tater50
336 posts
Curiosity Here: for you guys that play in SSB City Leagues; what rules do you have on the CR?

Tater50
Dec. 24, 2010
southpaw
Men's 60
733 posts
YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE! YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE! Will the last Fat, Slow, and/or Lazy person please turn out the lights; then the party (Senior Softball) will be over! LOL
Dec. 24, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Tater, you know which way I am going on this. Keep the rule if we must indulge the guys with issues, but make it be the last out. What is possibly wrong with that? This way guys don't have to run if they can't (though I still don't get how many EHs and catchers some teams must use) but the rule is not abused by, well most every team. :(

southpaw, if that would kill the party then so be it. But why not make it be the last out runs? What could that possibly hurt, and I can tell you at least two ways it helps.

Our league uses it just the miserable way that tournaments do.

Dec. 24, 2010
southpaw
Men's 60
733 posts
Gary, just having a bit of fun, however, I do believe that we can all agree thatsenior softball would be greatly hindered if all those "identifiable" players were eliminated.
I do agree that adjustments need to be made. Problem with simply saying last out--what if he is one who normally needs a courtesy runner? Then we go to the next guy and he just pulled a hamstring? Unlimited runners means just that--anyone and everyone with the understanding that every team has its own idiosyncrasies and on and on we go wasting more time.
I think the best thing for coaches is to be prepared prior to each offensive inning with a plan for use of CR's.
Dec. 24, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
southpaw, I understand.

I would be willing to bet quite a bit that if you went to last out runs you would have a GREATLY reduced number of requests for runners, as many of them are nothing more than ploys to get a faster runner out there. And that kind of stuff we really don't need.

My gosh, if teams really have that many guys who cannot run how are they fielding a team? How are they playing any defense? It is all just a joke.
Dec. 24, 2010
RIK56
Men's 50
120 posts
thanks for insulting me gary or dirty or whatever your name is,i just have one question why do you play in ssusa or spa that allows the rules you hate so much,and for the record your r&d crap didnt help me at all this year.
Dec. 24, 2010
DMac
Men's 60
185 posts
At the risk of beating a dead horse, CR's rarely waste time. Most of us are on our way to first base before the ump even calls time out. On the other hand, using the last out can easily eat up the clock. I remember many times when I was umpiring and had to wait while the teams argued about who actually was the last out. Even with a scorekeeper, delays are routine. Once, during an open inning, the guy who needed a runner had made the last out eleven batters earlier.
Dec. 24, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
DMac, the offset is you would have FAR fewer CRs being used since teams would no longer get the ridiculous advantage of taking a rabbit off the bench to run for a perfectly-healthy but slower guy.

In my experience, rarely is the CR used for a guy who truly cannot run, but rather for a guy who is just slower. Now how all these slow guys manage to play defense is a complete mystery to me.

RIK, how exactly did I insult you? Well, not unless the shoe fits............... Look, use a runner, but just use the last out and not a rabbit. What could possibly be your problem with that?
Dec. 24, 2010
RIK56
Men's 50
120 posts
fat/lazy/slow guys.but i do play defense,and i will at times ask for a runner.now answer the question why do you play if you hate the rules.i could live with the last out also.gary are you playing tournment ball this year.if i remember i thought you said you played last year.
Dec. 24, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Not too many other choices. Obviously.

Please explain how these guys do manage to play if they can't run the bases. How many first baseman can there be?

RIK, I am guessing you will agree that the rule gets abused TERRIBLY.

I did last year. Not sure if our team from last year will be back. I have been hearing different things so far. If not, might try to find another. I will turn 55 next year so can play 55+ or 50+. We shall see.

Dec. 24, 2010
RIK56
Men's 50
120 posts
most teams use a faster runner for a slower player,but remember this you have to watch how much you use the faster guys that are playing a postion.they can pull something to.i"m going to be 55 also,but no 55 major teams in the saint louis area,so i"m staying with the 50 year olds.
Dec. 25, 2010
Omar Khayyam
988 posts
Dirty, a little perspective please. Fat/slow/lazy...come on, that is a rough description of guys that I know that need a courtesy runner.

I don't have any lazy guys on my team. They all try hard. I think you mean lazy in the sense that they don't work out like you. I would guess that not one man in 1000 hits the gym like you. The other 999 are not lazy because they don't work out (too broke, injured, no gym nearby, other commitments, family responsibilities, no desire to be a muscle-man, etc.) yet they enjoy softball and playing it.

Slow, yes, some of them are slow and some have always been slow. Does that mean they don't enjoy playing or can't contribute? They are just slow.

Fat, well true in some cases. I would guess that 99% of us are fatter than we were when we were 20. It's called aging and it's also a description of our culture where we over eat and eat the wrong foods. But it is not going to change.

Your charge of no defense is not necessarily true. I have played on a team where the catcher was crippled, the first baseman was slow, the third baseman was overweight, and the pitcher was also slow with an artificial knee. Even our right fielder got by more on his smarts than his speed. Still had a very decent defensive team but of course it could have been better. Add in a few EHs, and you have a team with the opportunity for courtesy runners.

I could live with a tightening of the rules for CRs. I'm not sure I like the idea of a rabbit running for an otherwise healthy batter who is just slow. But even rabbits have a role to play and enjoy contributing.
Dec. 25, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Omar, there is a difference between the fat/lazy/slow guys who just get runners and the guys who might legitimately need one. I am not calling everyone who gets a runner that, just those who don't need one but take it because face it they are fat/lazy/slow. We have all seen them. They somehow manage to get to first, heck sometimes they can leg out a double, then claim they cannot run. How bogus is that?

And yes, I am referring to them being lazy in the off-season, though I am sure you have also seen some who play lazy as well. If they want to be lazy, that is their right I suppose, but don't go looking for an advantage in games just because they are.

And I know there are some reasons why guys don't work out, but many others just don't bother and then want CRs and special bats to do the work for them. That is the part that is wrong.

I just see no harm in tightening the rule. The guys who really cannot run won't have to, but their teams won't get the bogus benefit of using rabbits for healthy guys who might just be a step slower.

Merry Christmas!
Dec. 25, 2010
lazer larry
Men's 50
96 posts
RIK56, i think that first baseman thing was a shot at me. He must have seen that profile shot of me or us hugging(can you say belly bump) when we won in "08" LOL. I do a lot of running myself and enjoy it, but i could live with the last out being the runner. I think it would bring a little more stratagy back to the game. It might make some of the guys that swing from their heels and don't get it out of the park do more than make a right turn at firstbase and go sit on the bench. LazerLarry
Dec. 25, 2010
Tater50
336 posts
Gary: I have "0" problems w/adjusting the rule; just do not know the answer myself. But I think your thought on fat/slow/lazy is extreme; so take this w/a grain of salt. Most all of SSB players are overweight as Omar suggested; many are slow & have always been slow; it was just hereditary; can't make a Greyhound out of a Saint Benard.

But I think proper discussions like these is what directs SSB.

Just a friendly word to you Gary: we are not getting younger; jump on the SSB circuit & stay; we need more guys; although it is not perfect; you can display your skills & enjoy what you can. All together we can have fun & tweek the system as we go!!!

Merry Christmas Guys!!!

Tater50
Dec. 25, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Tater, don't get me wrong I am not one of the jackrabbits either, never have been. But the point is I take care of myself well enough that I can do a basic athletic skill, run for myself. Yea, I know most seniors are not as light as they used to be, but this is not a decathlon or a track meet, just slow-pitch softball.

And I would not mind staying playing tournaments, I just have to see what my old team from around here is doing next year. And I sure hope if we do play that we don't continue to see the same teams at tournaments like we did last year. I have been saying all along that is not what we travel to multiple states for, nor pay multiple hundreds of dollars each tournament for. Some variety is a good thing!

Larry, I still think using the last out is the way to go. Accomplishes what I hear we need to do with the guys who cannot run, and eliminates bogus runner changes just to get a fast guy out there. A no-lose proposition!
Dec. 25, 2010
RIK56
Men's 50
120 posts
I dont think it was a shot at you larry,but maybe the whole "08" coors light infield all 1360 lbs of it lol.
Dec. 25, 2010
terrymac
46 posts
Hey Gary, Terry from the 60 AA Silverados. Now that you have a great body come on out to my karate school and show us how to workout. The rabbit thing is bad. Worst part is teams that get up by 10-15 runs and still use the rabbits. Most of the faster players play in the outfield and you can burn them out by Sunday. Not every team has 20 players. The last out was probably a guy that couldnt run and got thrown out at first. Leave the game alone. We have tried to change things and usually mess things up worse. Merry Christmas and good luck in 2011
Dec. 25, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Terry, I might be able to show you guys how to lift, but I have NO idea about the karate stuff. :)

But if we 'leave the game alone' we are just going to get more of the rabbits, since that seems to be what is being done now. So I am not sure that would be a good idea.

I agree 100% that changes make a mess, but going to the last out would at least take things back to what I remember when the courtesy rule first came in many years ago.
Dec. 25, 2010
Omar Khayyam
988 posts
Gary, don't disagree that much with you. I joined a gym last year, primarily to stay in shape for softball. Mostly just working on my legs, though. You know I am in your corner in my opposition to the game-changing senior bat. Maybe we just disagree on who needs a courtesy runner and why.

Merry Christmas!
Dec. 25, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Omar, I know we often agree. About this, I suppose I could live with CRs for guys who "need" them. But the problem is, and I am sure you have seen it, the rule is terribly abused just to get a rabbit to run for guy who is perfectly healthy but might be a step or two slower.

That is just an abuse of every intention of "courtesy" runner. Will you agree with having the last out run? This way truly needy guys do get a runner, but teams don't get to handpick rabbits just to scam the system.
Dec. 25, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
i'll say most of these guys didn't start to get runners,it started when their coach thought that they weren't fast enough,and had guys who could run faster.now i'll agree,as soon as some get within 2 steps of first,the cr is coming out.
just wish we could use it for the people who really need them.
Dec. 25, 2010
Omar Khayyam
988 posts
Problem with using the last out is that the last out is often the one who most needs a courtesy runner medically—so hobbled he is thrown out at first; a guy with a bad leg who hits long balls just to get to first but often hits long fly outs; a hurting runner who is on second from a long ball but is thrown out at third on a short single; etc. Ruins the idea of a courtesy runner if the runner is just as hobbled as the one needing a runner. I do think making every courtesy runner bat would eliminate a lot of rabbits.
Dec. 26, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Omar, if a guy ia so hobbled that he can't even get to first, I am assuming he also cannot play the field. In that case, why is he playing at all? Yea I know playing is fun, but I would not really call that playing.
Dec. 26, 2010
hitman
Men's 65
299 posts
Our local league added a rule several years ago because of the abuse by a team that had a bunch of rabbits and they ran all the time. There was no out called even if the runner on base was due up.
We made the rule that the CR could only advance one base except for over the fence counting homers.
Now we really see who does and who doesn't need a runner!!!!!!!!!!
The Hitman
Dec. 26, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
hitman, I am not sure I like that rule, but anything to stop the bogus courtesy running is fine by me.
Dec. 26, 2010
Tater50
336 posts
"Omar, if a guy ia so hobbled that he can't even get to first, I am assuming he also cannot play the field. In that case, why is he playing at all? Yea I know playing is fun, but I would not really call that playing."

You've describe me in part for the 06 season. Had that knee surgery in 12/05; (basically had to tiptoe to 1B). In 06, was a liability; but Bill G. allowed me to play; kept my SSB spirits up. My only significant contributions: I joked & tried to keep everybody loose; coached bases & in the championship game @ the SPA in 06/55 Div. I cranked 2 HRS; otherwise, I batted pretty low.

If there had been no CRs allowed, then I would have missed 05(had a tremendous offensive year; 2nd on the Miken team; just could not run) & 06 I'd of had to sit out; my priorities would have changed & I'd probably quit SSB.

Tater50
Dec. 26, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4337 posts
If you take away the Cr in the game;
IĘthink you'll lose players.
Lose players, you lose teams,
Lose teams, you have no tournament.

Then you just post on web sites. Take up golf and play it while you ride in a cart from hole to hole.
Dec. 26, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Scott, if you change the CR so the last out has to run, you should not lose anyone.

But let's keep in mind the less whacky rules seniors use you just might draw in guys who don't play because of how dumbed-down the game has become.
Dec. 26, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4337 posts
Gary19,
We play that in league here and it doesn't always work out well. On occasion it does.
We have a draft league, So the teams can vary quite a bit in all abilities if the drafters aren't doing a good job. Example it you have 2-3 weak runners and or hitters in a row and need a cr you could easily be in trouble.
But I see your point, I just think the teams that have the rabbits should use them, just as a pitcher might want to walk a batter to get to another and so many other situations that can change any one game.
I get ran for quite often even though I don't ask for them. I also run for other guys...go figure that one out.
Dec. 26, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Scott, so if you are in trouble you are in trouble. This is somewhat of a competitive sport, not Socialism. No one guaranteed that every team would be equal.

What you are doing is a perfect example of what is terribly wrong with the current CR. Anywhere I have played, if you get run for you CANNOT run for anyone else. It only makes sense. How can a guy get one for one time and then be running for someone else later. Nothing against you personally , I like you, but that is just ridiculous for whoever would do that.
Dec. 27, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1964 posts
Gary, I commented in the other thread on the use of CR's in among other rules. Addressing just CR's. our team absolutely would cease to exist as a competitive team without it. We have one guy-our lead off hitter-who just had extremely major surgery to bypass half his circulatory system. But, he is our best leadoff hitter by far. He could run to first, but the problem was in his hip and he could not turn to run to second. We have one guy with COPD-but he is still out there competing. We run for him. Our best pitcher (John-you will never hear this again from me---lol) had knee surgery and has been told to quit or not walk in old(er) age. We run for him. Our best DH needed knee surgery all year, but has put it off until after the TOC. We run for him. I have had numerous injuries-but my worst problem in my right knee-4 surgeries so far-is bone on bone for the last 13 years. The knee has tilted to the point of 1 mm space in the front between the bones and they need to do surgery that will somehow break the leg and take a wedge of bone to 'untilt' the knee. Any amount of running hurts now. They run for me every time, even when I make it to second. Another outfielder had knee, shin and calf problems all year. We ran for him a lot. Because of the outfield injuries, we have a big man playing in the outfield a lot and he does a great job. He is about 6'5 and 250 (apologies John if wrong) and he cannot go a lot of games in the outfield, so we run for him to save his legs. I'm sure we are not the only team in that boat. We don't like to admit it, but we are getting old. But we are still here. AND, we almost always have our runners set up and waiting by first base so they do not delay the game.
Gary, I think the number of players playing now that would not play without the 'wacky' rules far, far exceeds the number that don't play because of the rules. I think it has to be a concession to age.
Dec. 27, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Webbie, I know guys have issues, and I have said a few times now that I suppose I could live witht the CR, but NOT with it being a handpicked rabbit. Let the last out run, or the out before that if the last out is a guy who cannot run himself (just as long as he never runs the bases in that game).

But I will maintain age has nothing to do with the mat, the second home plate, time limits, run limits, and the special bats.
Dec. 27, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4337 posts
Gary19,
Not any different that picking your SS or any other position. The Cr just happens to be an offense spot.
Politics have nothing to do here, so why do you always twist & change subjects? Heck, never mind answering that.
Dec. 27, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Scott, the shortstop has never been called a COURTESY fielder. It was always meant to be a courtesy to allow someone to run for an injured guy, but as a courtesy you don't get to pick your best guy.

The subject is 'Positives and Negative Views'. What, I am not allowed to give a negative to a much-abused rule?

Dec. 27, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4337 posts
Never said the ss was a courtesy fielder or even called that. Was saying he was most likely picked for that position for a specific reason or purpose. Same for the cr. Purpose of running as well as any position he plays.
Dec. 27, 2010
titanhd
Men's 50
324 posts
Taits,we all have egos. Some bigger than others.That being said.It would be an absolute insult to me for any team to choose me to be on their team for the sake of being a courtesy runner. "I can't hit,can't play a lick of defense but I can be your courtesy runner". Is there an all tourney team for Courtesy Runners in the near future too? I don't run for anyone unless they are hurt and won't allow anyone to run for me unless for the same reason...
Dec. 27, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4337 posts
titanhd,
Well the board reflects who has the biggest ones at times. I see where someone might get ticked but also see the coach or mgrs call as his choice and for the 'good' of the teams game at that time, hopefully. I see teams that use them quite a bit and some that rarely do. For what ever reason used, someone made the call & its not always the runner who called for it.
Don't wreck your back shoveling snow... you may need one by April or so when it melts.
Dec. 27, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
titanhd, I couldn't agree with you more.

The teams who use it a lot are the ones stretching the "courtesy" aspect of this the most. That is what needs to be stopped.
Dec. 27, 2010
Tater50
336 posts
Just a thought!!! Hope my figures are right!!

I checked the SSUSA Team Ratings & there are about 900 teams from 50-80. Grant you that many no longer exist; but let’s use that figure anyway. This is not including SPA.

Each tourney: qualifiers etc.
900 teams w/3 CRs: 2700 X 2 (wives)= 5400 If they spend $150 each (hotel, food, gas, tournament paraphernalia) which is conservative, that equals: $810,000.00

900 teams w/4CRs: 3600 X 2 (wives)= 7200 If they spend $150 each, that equals $1,080,000.00

60 Tourneys are scheduled from 11.10 to 11.11.

$810000 X 60= $4.8 Million
$1080000 X 60= $6.48 Million

If the CR rule is removed: Not only will this money be taken from SSB & the economy; but 2700/3600 will no longer be associated w/SSB.


Tater50
Dec. 27, 2010
Tater50
336 posts
Should have considered that all 900 teams are not playing at each tourney; but I think you still see the message.

Tater50
Dec. 27, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Tater, I see what you are saying but you seem to be assuming the CRs are specialists who only do that. Most of the ones I have seen also play the field, so chances are most of them would still come to the tournaments anyway. At least that is what I have seen.
Dec. 27, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1964 posts
We don't have anyone who is just a CR, but being a CR in games you don't start keeps guys in the game.
Dec. 28, 2010
tater9
62 posts
The game we played as a youngster is gone, not only from a philosophical standpoint but also from a business standpoint. The organizations need to turn a profit and will make changes to the game to keep players involved. As silly as some of these rules are a change back to the past would only mean less participation which in turn means less profit....you don't remain solvent on less for long.
Dec. 28, 2010
turn2
484 posts
The cr helps all teams. We use it because the rules say you can. I am not going to lose a ball game because I left a hurt or slow runner on the base when I could have used a faster runner.
This is part of the game. If there were not cr's that would be fine also. You just have to do things a little different.
Donnie
Dec. 28, 2010
stick8
1267 posts
Titanhd, hope santa was good to you and hope all is well for you and your family. To answer your question about courtesy runner awards YES, there is an award similar. Not in senior ball but in ISA. ISA has what they call a base burglar. He's only a designated runner and can run once an inning for someone. At ISA world tournaments they have what they call the all-world base burglar award. Kind of odd but it's real. Who you playing with next year?
Dec. 28, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Tater, I see your point. It is just a shame that middle age guys don't care enough to want the game played the way it was intended anymore.

Donnie, I see your point too, which is why the rule needs to be changed. We use it because we can as well, just like we use the special bats because we can, but eliminating both of them would improve the game and make it more legitimate. At least in my opinion.

Stick, please tell me you are kidding about that ridiculous award. :(
Dec. 28, 2010
tater9
62 posts
Gary19,
I agree, take away the senior bats, runs per inning and CR's and you definately have a more legitimate game of rec. softball.
From a business perspective ....never happen.
Dec. 29, 2010
turn2
484 posts
Gary,
I agree the bats are really hot. The major plus players do not need these bats or do they help these players average. The hot senior bats help some of the average hitters bring up there batting average and hit more home runs.
The senior bat does not help the average of some of the great hitters out there. Thse bats and rules also help some of the lesser teams play with the top level teams.
Either way we just want to play softball and try to beat the best teams that come to play.
Donnie
Dec. 29, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1964 posts
Gary-although I think you do realize it, the way you talk you forget that if the SSUSA does not make a profit, the whole venue goes away. Then where do we play? The hot bats aren't going away. Way too much money involved. I would love to play the game the way we played when we were younger, but it isn't going to happen. It is unfair that you say we don't CARE enough to play the game the way it was intended. I am not even sure this game as conceived was intended for guys in their 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's with our increasingly brittle bones, muscles that just don't do what they used to for us, and the myriad of other problems that go with aging. I think SSUSA has done a good job trying to give us a great game to play.

I have an idea for you, Gary. You have been so critical of the game we have. Why don't you put your own dollar on the line and start your own organization to compete with SSUSA with the rules that you want in the game. You can write it exactly as you want to because it is your organization. Put your product out there and let's see how it fares with the game we have. That's the American Dream (or at least it used to be). Money talks, you know what walks.
Dec. 29, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Webbie, I am not blaming (if blame is even the right word) SSUSA. I understand they are just pandering to what is apparently the masses.

My question is more with the players and why many of these rule changes from traditional softball are wanted. I don't see what brittle bones has to do with the need for super hot bats (if anything logically it should go the other way), mats, run limits, and times limits. Can you explain the correlation to me?

And why is everyone so sensitive when rules are questioned and changes proposed?
Dec. 29, 2010
hitman
Men's 65
299 posts
Dirty,
That's what we would like to ask you "Why are you so sensitive when rules are questioned and changes proposed?"
It's seems that the majority approves.
When this game was orginally created it wasn't played by 50,60,70+ year olds.
When I left Pa in 1983 they were just starting leagues for old timers, it was called 35 and over and then by early 90's it was 45 and over. Now you see Senior Softball starting to drop back to the the younger 40 and 45 and over teams.
Golf has special tees for older players which is why older golfers continue to play.
Senior Softball is just that "SENIOR SOFTBALL" and if you don't like the rules don't play, go play with the kids.

The Hitman
Dec. 29, 2010
JBTexas
Men's 60
260 posts
Guys give it up we aren't going change Gary#19 mind and he isn't going to change the current game. Seems like he likes the Gary against the world angle.
Dec. 29, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
"It's seems that the majority approves."

I am not so sure of that, at least based on the very low tournament participation.

I can see some rules needing to be modified, though remember that for a long time the game was essentially the same as we used to play was being played by little girls.

But let me repeat...

My question is more with the players and why many of these rule changes from traditional softball are wanted. I don't see what brittle bones has to do with the need for super hot bats (if anything logically it should go the other way), mats, run limits, and times limits. Can you explain the correlation to me?

And why is everyone so sensitive when rules are questioned and changes proposed?
Dec. 29, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1964 posts
Pandering is how you make money. If they went against the grain they wouldn't last long.

Gary-I've said many times I would support a 'measured step back' in bat/ball combo with the hope some of the limits that are necessary now would go away. Brittle bones has to do with the second home plate you have argued against several times. I don't believe your comparison to base collisions is apples to apples. You don't have to stop at home plate-you can run through. That makes it an easy change for a measure of safety. It doesn't change the game a tremendous amount. It makes a ton of sense. At second and third things are going to happen. As a runner, you need to get there, but you also need to stop and stay on the base. The out is a tag play. Breaking up a double play is what it is, at our age. Most guys I know won't do that anymore. Nobody is trying to change the game by attempting to make it perfectly safe. But how many serious injuries are prevented with this small change at home. 1, 5, 10, 50 a year?? What is the number that makes it worth the small change?

Maybe you should be glad nobody has proposed a base inside second base and a base inside third base for the defensive guy to touch for a force out. Maybe a third bag for each base-1 for defensive outs, one that the runner must stop on like in regular softball, and one outside the regular base that you are allowed to run through, but you cannot advance to the next base if you use it. Umpires would love calling 10 bases! If it was all about safety, these might have been proposed before.

Gary-why are you playing Senior Ball? Why am I playing Senior ball? I am here as a concession to age. I played Class A until I was 53.I cannot do what I used to be able to do. If I could, I would still be playing with the kids. I suspect it is the same with you, although I hear you are an excellent player and in great condition. As we stepped back as a concession to age, we stepped into a game with concessions to age. The longer I play, the more I agree with these concessions. And, you said it yourself, apparently the 'masses' are ok with the game.

Let's play ball!! Finally it is going to snow here and drop into the 20's. Real men practice in that!!!
Dec. 29, 2010
Tater50
336 posts
No reverting back:
I am for a more balanced game; as far as bats/balls; but it will not happen. Take a look at the Senior Bat; Miken was the only producer a few years back; now there are probably 8+ manufacturers.
The majority have spoken w/their wallets; I know guys that have every brand of Senior Bats; $1000 or more dollars in their bag; they will go w/o groceries to buy a SB (not beer); every Christmas/birthday they ask for a Senior Bat LOL!!! It's not going away.
If we do not agree & cannot live w/it, we have to find another venue for excitement. My position: keep playing, have a good time: tweek SSB as we go.
Guys are not going back to Sweet & Low when they have tasted HONEY!!!
The CRs/dbl bases/split home plate will stay: too many are for it. That will remain; plus too many funds are acquired by the CRs participation.
If you are a SSB junkie; there will come a time when an injury will sideline your abilities to run; yet you can hit; yet you want to participate to keep yourself upbeat & you will welcome the CR until you get back on your fleeted feet.

Tater50
PS Webbie25 Snowball: have to use the optic yellow; keep losing the white one in the air (when snow is falling) & on the ground.
Dec. 29, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Sure I could go play with the kids instead of trying to improve the senior game. Heck, I could move to Canada instead of trying to change things here.

Webbie, we all lose something to age, no question about it. I just don't see, though, how run limits and time limits and unlimited use of CRs has anything to do with age. Maybe that is just me, but I don't see it.

Tater, it might just be me, but when I cannot play the complete game for myself (and yes, I know that will happen at some point) I will just move on and not expect special rules to carry me. At least I hope at that point I still have enough pride to see it that way.
Dec. 29, 2010
stick8
1267 posts
Gary19 it's absolutely true. You can also steal bases in ISA--once the ball crosses the plate.
Dec. 29, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
there is stealing in ASA also.i hate the rule for slowpitch.

turn2 that is the problem with the CR rule,to much abuse.i think it was instituted for the player who was injured and unable to run freely.i think as long as the player is NOT injured,he/she should be running for themselves,regardless how slow they are.if you need to CR a faster runner maybe you should look at your team and get them to hit better,to bring that runner in to score.we already have to play defense just about at the fence now a days.

turn2,yes i do know of your team and have played against ya,and they do hit good,so what if clatter has to run the bases,he is not injured is he.it makes the game fairer when everyone has to run,not just your special rabbits.
Dec. 29, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
mad dog, you are getting more correct with each post. It is friggin SLOW-pitch softball, if a guy cannot do all facets of the game play chess.

In a rec league I can perhaps see this, but if you are going to play tournaments than my goodness run for yourself.
Dec. 29, 2010
turn2
484 posts
mad dog,
Clatter would run all the time if I would let him. When you have a ball player of this caliber I do not want him to get hurt running the bases. This why I use the cr. This way i can protect one of my better players.
It would be fair it those were the rules. If you could only run 1 person / inning like the 40's that would be fine also. I would just have to use it more wisely. Maybe when our team gets to the 65 division Clatter can run for himself.
Who do you play with?
Later
Donnie
Dec. 29, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Donnie, I see what you are saying and if that is what the current rule (or at least its current interpretation)is then use it that way if you can, I guess. And I know you understand that prevention is certainly not the spirit of the rule.

If he or anyone needs a runner, then fine, but it should NOT be a hand-picked rabbit.
Dec. 30, 2010
turn2
484 posts
Gary,
Our team is almost 65 years old. I don't think we have any of these so called rabbits. If the players can still make it around the bases at this age most are happy.
No matter what cr rules they may have we would make do with the runners. Some of the guys could run most of the time.
Donnie
Dec. 30, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
turn2,you should not be allowed to protect your players like that,if they are healthy they should run,and you take your chances.i'm slow but get really PO when they say i need to have a CR,why,i can run and i'm not hurt,and i supply a lot of my teams power,so what.i play D so why can't i run.i get tired of the "oh he is slow.so lets run for him" BS.running is part of the game.
so if your not hurt you should run.
Dec. 31, 2010
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
391 posts
Courtesy runners are over used but are needed at Senior Softball. I agree with Gary 19 in his earlier statement that it should be "the last out" or last available. At least that puts a little bit of thinking back into doing a batting line-up.
Dec. 31, 2010
GaCMan
86 posts
I'm new to senior ball as I'm only 55. I played the last 25 years with guys half my age who always wanted to run for me,I always wanted to run for myself. The CR rule is abused a lot but it has its place in senior ball. When I first came to regular season senior ball they literaly liked to have run me in the ground with it,would run 2to 4 times an inning.
Dec. 31, 2010
Tater50
336 posts
CMan: you're on my team, don't side w/Gary & others about the CR rule; cause a fat/lazy guy like me will have to stay home LOL!!!

Tater50
Dec. 31, 2010
GaCMan
86 posts
I absolutly said there is a place for this rule and that includes fat/lazy guys ha ha ha
Dec. 31, 2010
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
John, I cannot state whether you are fat, but my guess is you are far from lazy. Running, if healthy, is just not that hard of a thing to do.

If a healthy guy cannot do the simple act of running softball bases, he probably has far bigger medical issues that need to be addressed than the simple game of slow-pitch.

If it has a place, it is with the last out as the CR, not a rabbit.
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