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Discussion: Changes

Posted Discussion
Oct. 6, 2005
Airbosn
Men's 65
321 posts
Changes
Question for the Best Thinkers in Senior Softball. What Would You Change In Senior Softball?
IMO...
70 foot base path.
Hi/Low Pitch...5 to 15 feet
1 rabbit runner per innning
Base stealing
All bats legal except Ti.
7 homers and then single for all senior age groups.
Oct. 6, 2005
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
395 posts
I would change nothing. I really like the 70' bags though.
Oct. 6, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Airbosn
I have seen a lot of crazy things in softball but none as crazy as calling a 50 + year old man out for hitting a ball over a 300ft fence.

The extra irony here is that some organzations do this while still allowing a bat like the Ultra 2???

Watching the other team as they seem to enjoy the fact that he got called out????

Just seems crazy to me but maybe it is just me.

Home runs to singles at all levels and if your too good , move up to the next level.

IMO

Thanks

Mike Kelly

Kelly's Sports/Team Worth
50 Major Plus for 2006

Oct. 6, 2005
KillAbrew
Men's 60
55 posts
I just love the oppertunity to pick MK apart.
"Watching the other team as they seem to enjoy the fact that he got called out????"
That must have been us, the only way we have of staying with you in a game.

"Just seems crazy to me but maybe it is just me."
Yep, just you.

"Home runs to singles at all levels and if your too good , move up to the next level."
And if you are not an HR team you get to move up anyway. Then find out that D and singles are not a good enough game.
BTW,
KillABrew is:
LJ = Senior22, Animals 55
Just disagreeing wid chu!
Oct. 6, 2005
KillAbrew
Men's 60
55 posts
Also, MK, I thought I read that you quit and were not going to post any more.
Then my alter ego Dawg Breath got you back!!!!!!!!!!! ha ha ha
Oct. 6, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
KillAbrew
Now it all makes sence.
Larry Jenson = Kill A Brew, Sir drink a lot, etc.
hahahaha
You know i am easy and this proves it.
The Dawg Breath reeked of you as well, i felt there was maybe a connection but could not quite figure it out.
Remember your fight is not with me any more it is with the organazations that make you play at a level where you don't feel you should be.
I know, vote me as the head of the ranking committee and i will take real good care of you.
hahaha
Don't do it , just joking.
Good luck for the rest of 2005 Larry and the Animals, Drink a bunch of brew, Dawg Breath etc,.
Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports/Team Worth
Oct. 6, 2005
KillAbrew
Men's 60
55 posts
MK, just had to let you know who was picking on you.
But I did get you to come back. ha ha
Oct. 7, 2005
JTS2
Men's 55
88 posts
The only way to control where home run hitters play is restricting home runs and making any home runs over the limit outs. All home runs over the limit should be out in AA and AAA. This will encourage players to move up.

I also think the mat should be bigger and the plate not a strike.

Major and major + should be allowed to use 11 defensive players.

Allow only metal bats no composites. Composite bats should only be used in the higher age groups not 50 and 55.

Rate pl;ayers do not let players win mutiple titles in the AA and AAA.

Watch more closely for illegal rosters and new pickup teams. Use the coaches to help identify sandbagging teams and illegal players. Let the managers help rate teams.

Tournament directors quit letting teams add players to their rosters before world tournaments. If they can't pickup players from the next highest group don't let them play.
Oct. 7, 2005
Robo2
222 posts
I like the 70 ft baselines becasue it will bring defense back into the equation and add safety for the plastic bats and plastic balls; the 7 HRs with singles afterwards because a 50+ player should be allowed to use their God given abilities and it would save us pitchers; the open bats because we all know some players use doctored bats and they have the advantage now. I do not like fooling with the pitch height; keep the plate and the mat but extend the batters box forward; and get someone in the rating committee that can actually rate teams according to performance. Someone who really wants to do a good job. Let the teams fall where they may but don't hide the difference by 5 run rules or eliminating HRs. don't worry about one or two pickup players because it may be the only way to get a team together (fi not abused) and make teams play 2 or three qualifiers that seat them in the Nationals.
Oct. 7, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
KillAbrew
Thanks for letting me know it was you.
I was really starting to think that maybe someone out there really did not like me???
hahaha
have fun and close the bar door on the way out.
Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports/Team Worth
Oct. 7, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Stagger the home runs per level.
Major Plus = Unlimited
Major 4 home runs then singles
Triple A 2 home runs then singles
Double A 1 home run then Singles
Ranked players on lower level teams
1. Major can have no more then 2 Major plus players on roster, these players can not be picked up just for worlds and must have played in at least 1 qualifier.

2. Triple A can have no more then 2 Major players on roster, these players can not be picked up just for worlds and must have played in at least 1 qualifier.

3. Double A can have no more then 2 Triple A players on roster, these players can not be picked up just for worlds and must have played in at least 1 qualifier.

Any team that wins any Senior softball worlds or national will be bumped to next highest level starting the next season.

Any team in excess of the alloted number of higher ranked players would be moved up to the approiate level.

ok done deal now lets play some real ball and have fun

Thanks
Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports/Team Worth

Oct. 7, 2005
Robo2
222 posts
Mike, you did not comment on the length of baseline, pitcher's mound, height of pitches, or types of bats used. I would like to hear your opinion. Also, their must be a way of re-rating a player due to physical change if we stick a player in a Major Plus and there isn't a Major Plus team around or one that wants him, other levels may not want him for fear of being pushed into a higher level. Or what about a player or two that simply wnat to play with friends but the team cannot compete at the next level. Of course I am not talking about abuses. I like the idea of rating players because of so many teams changing names from one year to the next, but I would think it takes more than 2 players to lift an entire team rating up one level. I would think more like 4 would be needed, but once again, that comes from my own point of view.
Oct. 7, 2005
Rod
Men's 70
24 posts
Here we go again. It apears that each age group should have their on rules, similar to our associations. My comments are for the 65+ age group and are mine only. From what I have read over the years most of the discussion to change things are from the youner age groups. At 65+ we just want to play and if someone can hit the ball for distance please don't take that away from him.
First my team plays with our normal guys and we only pick up someone when we have no other
choice, we believe that we can play better with someone you know and are confident in what each player does.
70 ' bases path: For our age 65 is enough.
Bats: Any bat will do, if I were to hit a ball 300' I'd be happy for a week. Seven (7) home runs would be fine and anything over that we would be happy to take an out or a single.
Pitched ball height: The only thing that will get you is more walks.
Base Stealing: No way


Oct. 7, 2005
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Robo2
Probably nothin harder to do then to get these guys to rate players, it is a huge undertaking.

Maybe it is way easier to just say win and move up???

bases are fine right now.

pitching is fine the way it is.

unlimited rabbits per inning, you can only run 1 time though for someone.

no base stealing

go by current bpf bat list

stagger homre runs ler level of play but never an out, goes to singles after home run limit is met.

Thanks
Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports/Team Worth
Oct. 7, 2005
SAG
83 posts
We play 50AAA I like the 5 run rule and Home run rule when we have to play Major or Major Plus teams in tournaments that put us in their brackets when they don't have enough teams to play in our own division. At least we can stay competetive amd make a game of it. I don't think a homerun should be an out even though we don't hit many. Single is fair. Rabbits as much as you want current SPA rule is good. Gives our guys with knee replacements ext.. a chance to play longer. Current bat restrictions are fine. I'd like to see all associations alow more hitters and free substitutions. If I want to play stricter rules I can play down with my son's team.
Oct. 7, 2005
red
28 posts
I like the moving back of the bases. The guys who complain when called out for a HR in AA, solution move up to a class thats its not an out. But I would not mind the one up rule but be an out not a single on the second one. I have suggested before, Major and up any bat: AAA no composite: AA no double walls. If you want to hit the hot bat move on up and have at it. I"m a AA player no long baller but the new bats allow me to drive the ball thru the infield. I'm a better hitter with these bats, but I would go back to single wall if it means better competion and less chance of injurys. In qualifers we have to play AAA and sometime Major teams this should stop. The best tournament we go to is in Hot Springs AA only and we get 5 or 6 teams makes for a good round robin, since winning or losing in the qualifers means nothing these are only practice.
Oct. 7, 2005
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2645 posts
SAG likes the rabbit rule because he can run for the fat guys. He is one of the fastest 50 yr olds that I have seen.
Oct. 7, 2005
Gary Heifner
248 posts
1. I like the 70' bases.
2. No base stealing. I have played a lot of catcher the past two years and a lot of balls hit the edge of the mat and veer off to the side. I would hate to lose a national on a strike that jumps sideways.
3. The more home runs you allow at the Major+ and Major levels, the more big hitters will move up. At AAA allow a set number and play one up. It has worked great this year. At AA, just make a homer a single. Let the ringer huff and puff and hit 400' singles. He won't stay there long.
4. I have seen teams drop players who have been with them for years just to add new guys to try and get a ring. When there is a lot of roster movement each year it is very hard to fairly rate a team. You might have more honest people if you had lifetime bans against the entire roster of a team who brings a player using a false ID card or drivers liscense.
5. Keep the runner rule as is along with the current arc.
6. Keep ANY bat that passes the 120 legal. I think the 70' bases and 6' extended pitchers box off sets most safety concerns.
Oct. 7, 2005
KillAbrew
Men's 60
55 posts
Gary Heifner, #3
No,
no HRís at all.
If you were on a team that gets forced to play Major and Major + with singles hitters you would not want them either. HRís are bad. They should be outs.

Really just kidding but I personally love the 3 - 5 and then 1 up. Gives us a chance.
Oct. 8, 2005
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2645 posts
allow bats that are 1.20 bpf

3 courtesy runners per inning

6 hrs, one up and a single
Oct. 10, 2005
jah#4
Men's 55
551 posts
I would like to see the 70 ft. bases the 6 ft pitcher box in all organizations. I would say we used the runners as much as anyone in Major plus division.stealing is just going to get someone hurt. as for HR let them hit them in Major plus , 6 in Major, 3 in AAA and 1 inAA then a single it would save a pitcher or two.
Don Ward
Miken/Old South/ Specialty Tank
Oct. 11, 2005
BMoney
37 posts
No Ultra II's. 1.20 bat rules.That should be enough for anyone;plus you have to be able to play defense.Keep HR's at unmimited Major+;Major- 5;AAA -3;
AA-1.
We just got back from Vegas and using the U2 in Major;we were out homered in Major 46 to 10 in three games. Hey guys;this ain't softball.Where does defense come in when 19 balls are hit out against you???.
Need to be changes.

BMoney
Oct. 11, 2005
Lecak
Men's 55
1006 posts
BMoney did I read this right 46 HR's were hit against your team in 3 games? Were they go to first and walk off? Did the other teams also use pinch runners? I'm trying to visualize the overall conditioning of these teams. Guys with their backs against the fence, the only guys getting excercise is the poor slob chasing the balls hit over the fence, probably someones kid they gave a couple of dollars too. The only guy sweating is the pitcher hoping he doesn't get drilled with a mistake.
Oct. 11, 2005
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
LECAT:
Sunday, @ Freedom, in the LVSSA WORLD MASTER CHAMPIONSHIPs final games in the 55 Major plus ; the final 2 games went as such. 44 to 39 & the if game went 59 to 44. In both
games, in the 1st inning, 23 runs & 19 runs were scored. In one inning, the Fla. team was 20 runs down & scored 21 runs in their 1/2 inning.
Oct. 12, 2005
Dale
Men's 50
76 posts
I guess some of you guys like 55-49 games, but the purists think there is more to the game than bombs. You wonder why there are so few teams playing Major +.
Do you remember the old baseball arcade games where you hit a home run and the players advanced around the bases by being pushed by the player behind them.
That's what I think about when I see Major + teams play with hot balls and bats. I know you guys love your brand of softball and that's fine, but to me it just seems so one dimensional. I like using my legs and my glove.
Oct. 12, 2005
Robo2
222 posts
Not that I am a consistent HR hitter, but to me there is no greater thrill than to catch a ball just right and hit it over the wall. Making a fielding play is a nice feeling too, but softball is a game of hitting. Always was! The best teams hit and hit with power. Now we are not young anymore so what's wrong with letting guys hit what they can? Another thing is that guys like to play with friends and the diversity on one team is great. Some have a level of AA; some are Major +. The only teams that are consistent in their talent are so called tournament teams. For those who honestly think that hitting a 375 ball over a 300 foot fence consistently (in a game) is easy (with any bat) I would like to see them do it.
Oct. 12, 2005
Rocket
5 posts
I would like to see the hr out changed to at least a single. I for one enjoy hitting the sweet spot and hitting it out. To be penalized for having the ability to do that is just not fair.
Oct. 12, 2005
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
DALE: If, I read yer past post, u play AA & AAA. U should play were u can complete. I started lift' weights in 1962. I aslo, started play' softball in 1967. I remember a farmer from Oak Hill, Ks. Almost every game that I saw this man play in 10 yrs, this man hit several home runs & was walked several times a game. Last wk, I saw a 55 M+ Fla., team walk one player 7 straight time. This player hit a h.r., then was walked 3 more straight times. Several times Don C., was walked to load the bases & 3 times Don, was walked w/ the base loaded.
MY POINT: The best players should play in MAJOR PLUS. There r many players that do play down, so as to win a ring. I would rather c men hit H.R.s than hit the middle. I do not play against some of my 55 AA-AAA friends teams. In the past, I played & hit several balls that hit these friends or ate them up.
Is this not the reason 4 round robbins? or, do u want to go back to the 70's & play 2-3 games, no 4-5 games mim?
GOOD LUCK...... THE STONEMAN
Oct. 12, 2005
BMoney
37 posts
Lecak,
Yes,we were playing Major 55.You were allowed to hit 7 and then they were 1 up or walks.The other teams were frustrated with us because we could not catch them and go one up.In 3 double elimination games we had 19,17,10 home runs hit against us. This type of play there is no defense.In the 55 major + the pitcher wasn't protected-they still hit the middle.Jay Smith got his finger broken by a ball up tyhe middle and Davey Reed got knocked out of the game by a line drive.This ain't softball guys.Let's get back to 1.20 and let the HR hitters hit em and turn a couple of double plays with our defense.

Money
Oct. 12, 2005
BMoney
37 posts
Lecak,
Yes,we were playing Major 55.You were allowed to hit 7 and then they were 1 up or walks.The other teams were frustrated with us because we could not catch them and go one up.In 3 double elimination games we had 19,17,10 home runs hit against us. This type of play there is no defense.In the 55 major + the pitcher wasn't protected-they still hit the middle.Jay Smith got his finger broken by a ball up tyhe middle and Davey Reed got knocked out of the game by a line drive.This ain't softball guys.Let's get back to 1.20 and let the HR hitters hit em and turn a couple of double plays with our defense.

Money
Oct. 12, 2005
BMoney
37 posts
Lecak,
Yes,we were playing Major 55.You were allowed to hit 7 and then they were 1 up or walks.The other teams were frustrated with us because we could not catch them and go one up.In 3 double elimination games we had 19,17,10 home runs hit against us. This type of play there is no defense.In the 55 major + the pitcher wasn't protected-they still hit the middle.Jay Smith got his finger broken by a ball up tyhe middle and Davey Reed got knocked out of the game by a line drive.This ain't softball guys.Let's get back to 1.20 and let the HR hitters hit em and turn a couple of double plays with our defense.

Money
Oct. 12, 2005
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
BMONEY: I talked to Jay, after the game that his finger got dislocated or broken. The ball hit Jay's, glove & then his hand. Jay, was making the throw before he got the ball.
DAVEY REED, was not set & jumped up off the ground & got hit in the .....This is why, he got hurt.
As I watched the games in the last 17 days, I saw the Major Plus & Major teams turn double plays, drive to catch line drives, drive @ 2nd & S.S. to catch or stop balls thru the middle. I also, saw several players climb the fence or run into the fence to catch balls.
@ the same time, I saw players hit the lines, 5-6 hole, & 3-4 hole for hits.
The infields @ Freedom & Lorinzi parks r rock hard. I play league & tourn., @ these parks. This state is in a droughty & balls do take bad bounces.
Several players got hurt in the last 2 games. These men just ran out of energy & got a bad bounce.
Oct. 16, 2005
the wood
1076 posts
The ball that hit Jay Smith wasn't really hit that well but it did take an odd bounce... more of an ULtra II issue. Between the wind, bats and hot balls in LV, the games were grossly distorted. Speaking for the 55 major +, we usually don't get much beyond the 7 HRs. In LV, that was 1 inning.It isn't reasonable to use one event as 'evidence' but this shouldn't become the norm. The ASA 45+ rules (3 HRs/game then an out) were perhaps too tight. But ruling on HRs prior to bat rules is foolish. Having played in Plano, Des moines and LV, we prefer the SPA rules, HRs & equipment. We believe that players (incl Major +) should play on both sides of the ball... so to speak. Now that TRC only bats 10 men it forces their opponents to consdier the same, which implies only 1 DH (catcher). Our hat is off to them for their impressive play in Tx AND LV... and they are a class act.
Oct. 16, 2005
turn2
484 posts
las vegas worlds
the wind was blowing out at freedon park ,but the scores would nt have been so high if everyone was not usif the ultra 2. i heard in one of the major games that the farm scored 56 runs and hit 30 home runs. this is supposed to be a major team. take away the ultra 2 and then lets play some real softball.
my opion
donnie
turn two / rekco/ county sports
Oct. 16, 2005
the wood
1076 posts
Donnie, this matter has been dsicussed quite a bit in the past. Those that play in the infield would like more opportunities to actually field the ball (not as concerned about injuries as folks might think)and the guys with WTP prefer to hit it over the fence. As you know, there are Ultra 2 hitters and there are hitters. I personally would rather see some level of unification as it realtes to balls and bats. Let the guys that can hit HRs (with non-Ultra 2s nor juiced bats) hit as many as they can... I'm speaking for the 55 major + division. As an example, how many HRs did The Farm hit in Iowa? Not picking them out for any reason other than you eluded to them. We only hit 7 in 4 days in Iowa and we hit a whole bunch more in LV in 3 days.
Guys with WTP shouldn't be hitting the ball as far as Rick Wheeler, Craig Elliott, Mickey Morrison, etc. (but you and I might be among the few that know who they are).
Whatever the next best bats might be (more debates) are significantly less than the U2. We are ok with this as well... even if we have to go down to the ASA approved bats in order to unify thingd, we can live with it. It's a boon to the bat manufactrurers that we need so many different bats (@ $200-380 each) and it is not a benefit to the hitters.
Having plated slow pitch since the late 60s, I do recognize that it isn't the same as baseball in all respects. However, I don't see MLB bringing the fences in (radically) or allowing aluminum bats. Yes, the wood bat makers have some political clout, which throws a different slant on things. I grew up with baseball, then fast pitch, then slow pitch (1st to 3rd game)... then saw the Meades and the Crushers and the Downings, etc. etc. If senior softball will be similar to the latter then let it be because of player, not the equipment. If Don C. hits like Parnell and does so with a PST, fine. But don't give me the WTP guy hitting it 360... just one man's opinion.
Oct. 16, 2005
the wood
1076 posts
I don't know about either of the... would guess that they are not. The only guys that I see around the game over the past 3-4 yearshave been Denny Jones, Elby Bushong, Hank Kosmala, ron Galvan, Don Clatterbough, Eddie Finnegan, John Davide and Hank Cluess. A few years back I did see Dennis Myers, Mike Jacobs, Bruce Meade, Max Reed, Harold Kelley and Terry Perryman... and Jim Carey. Don Furnald, who died in March, played right up until his death. As a west coast team we don't get back to the southeast very often so there may be more that we haven't seen. How about you? Have you seen anyone else?Russell Bradley, the Williams brothers, Ray Fleetwood, Joe Yound, Herman Rathman? Anybody else? Enjoyed playing those guys... particularly Herman.
Oct. 17, 2005
DoubleL10
Men's 65
813 posts
the wood-
Jim Cary and Terry Perryman are playing 60's ball with Randy Hendricks' team. I haven't seen Harold Kelly, Mike Jacobs or Max Reed for a couple of years. I understand that Bruce Meade has retired.

Oct. 17, 2005
the wood
1076 posts
Gary,
We played in Cleveland (Lakewood actually) in 08/78. We opened with Hillcrest Tavern... Maschenko was their SS... got doub dipped by Howard's on Sunday. Nelson's was there, us, Howard's and I don't remember much beyond this other than Hilldcrest.
Double L, your recollection is about the same as mine... saw Jacobs in Denver in '01 (looks as he did in late 70s) but have not the others since '00. Saw Myers also in '01, he was still hitting long HRs with a full knee replacement... but was frustrated with not being able to play 3b as he used to do. Saw D. Jones in Iowa this year... he's much lighter than he was but can still play... one of the nicest people I've ever met in the game. Is Jim C. still the 'bat doctor'? :-)
Oct. 17, 2005
the wood
1076 posts
Yes, it was Madison Park... big factory behind right field... 320 fences. Our team was Capitol Insulation (N. Hollywood, Ca.)... not to be confused with West Hollywood. Several really funny things happened there but I won't bore you with it here. My email address is awtgroupsc@aol.com if you wish to know more. Aside from Steele's, the best Ohio team we played was Savanna Cafe and Stroh's (same team).
Oct. 20, 2005
the wood
1076 posts
Double L,
In listing the 'old guys', I omitted Billy Steele. I see him so often that I neglected to include him as one of the players from 25 years ago.
But I'm sure that you've seen him quite a bit, too. I suppose that the aging process has advanced more than I'm willing to admit.
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