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Discussion: A ?

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Feb. 18, 2011
TOMAR77
Men's 55
197 posts
A ?
Top Gun is hosting a Ring Tournament in So. Cal.under the auspices of SSUSA, It is The Top Gun Tourney. I am respectful that Top Gun has a strong Senior Softball presence in So. Cal. , in fact they inspired Git-R-Done to multiply our teams.However I have a question. Why would our team want a Ring that has the name of a team(s) that have whoop us in the past Tourney's. I could not enter our 55 & 60 teams in this Tournament with the out of this world possiblity that one of our teams might accidently WIN this Tourney. I definately would not "buy the rings". My question to the message board, would you? My humble suggestion would be to re-name the Tourney maybe the So. CA. Winter Nationals Hosted By Top Gun San Deigo.I am most interested in opinions of fellow softball players and Managers. Our team is interested in playing next year in this Tourney. As there are only 30 teams this year could it be that my point has been made!?
Respectfully Submitted
Tomar
I submitt this commentary in due respect to the Top Gun Organization. But one has to protect a teams ego even if it has a small foot print in the scheme of Senior Softball life.
Feb. 18, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4331 posts
As you likely know, err may suspect, many just go to win a ring. Perhaps an ego, thing or just bragging rights, who the heck knows.
But as you know top gun has many men & women's teams that are good.
Like some say its a game, a place to play at close to home.
Given that Hemet is this weekend and some others follow close bay down there, could be another reason. It gets costly.
Feb. 19, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
nope,if it is not part of the prize package,i'm not buying anything.i have a few opportunity's to get a ring,but had to buy it and said no-no.why offer something that you have to pay $250 for after already paying team fees of $450 and up,and that is for the cheap tourney's.i say if your not gonna give the ring free,then don't call it a ring tourney.
Feb. 19, 2011
Jawood
Men's 50
791 posts
Do "ring" tournaments actually draw teams to enter because you can BUY one. How about a tournament that has 12+ teams in it, that would draw us to play.
Feb. 19, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Jawood, very well said.
Feb. 19, 2011
Marv19
Men's 60
433 posts
Tommy I sure wouldn't go. But then you know why :O) Maybe tell them about the ring you just got that you didn't have to pay a dime extra for. R U and your lovely wife going to be in Lancaster in two weeks?
Feb. 20, 2011
curveball
Men's 65
400 posts
Wouldn't it help strengthen SoCal teams in general to support local tournaments? Why wouldn't you support this one Marv?
How much are your tournaments each weekend? How much more did you charge for your "free" Ring Tourney? Ring cost has to be covered somehow.............
Feb. 20, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4331 posts
If you look ar the tournaments scheduled and read the TOC events. Notice that both the events that are qualifiers and or championship events are Ring Option events.
I believe the only two exceptions are PHX and the TOC where a ring is awarded as the prize.
Those events are also the biggest draw events for teams.
So yes those do work out for the assn. Likely for other assns as well.
Feb. 20, 2011
kbl
Men's 60
528 posts
taits--well said again. ken
Feb. 20, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4331 posts
Pretty bad having only 3 teams in the 65 bracket and another 3 teams in the 70's and need to play each other...
Hope you do well. Many good teams there participating.

Thanks, Ken
Feb. 20, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1964 posts
taits-just an observation-not to be contrary-how many 65 and 70 year olds-nationwide are even still gutsy enough to be out there playing? Age itself is a limiting factor, plus the fact that most guys gave up the game long ago and would not even consider coming back to play. I applaud all of that age who are still out there! I admit to being still somewhat amazed these guys are still out there and there are 3 or 4 teams in the brackets.
Feb. 20, 2011
kbl
Men's 60
528 posts
taits and webbie25--we have been playing in-door since early january. all the "young guys" (under 70) 58-68, play the 70s team. we play with aluminium bats and a "soft" ball. the 70s team plays very serious and well.

you dont hear any of the 70s guys complaining . they inspire me. i hear some stories from them and just think, "i have nothing to complain about" i look forward to every tues and thurs. my thoughts.--ken
Feb. 20, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4331 posts
To venture a guess some would say not nearly enough. But I think those that still can play for the most part are in better shape than those who for some reason or another have left the game. Many factors enter to that equation as you know.
I too admire them.
There is an indoor place near Roseville, Ca that has this going on.
Feb. 20, 2011
Marv19
Men's 60
433 posts
First off Curveball where in my post did I say it was free? I said it didn't cost a dime extra. Price was $550. Your team should come this year. We had a team from Fresno come to our last one in January. Our next ring tournament is in September. The entry fee pays for the rings and we gave out 14 per winning team. Around 60 rings in all. Second where is I said I didn't support it? I said I WOULDN'T GO. Perhaps I should have said couldn't. For one the association putting it on are competitors and we have a tournament just one week apart. Personally from a marketing standpoint this deludes the available teams in this area that would otherwise go to each and forces them to choose one or the other. We had this same date last year... they didn't. Fields are very hard to get and once you have them on a certain date you have to commit each year to that date. Large deposits are required and Insurance companies demand schedules well in advance. And last: My team isn't entered. They chose to enter our tournament instead. BTW we don't have a tournament every weekend. More info and a schedule is on our site. Hope this clears up your concerns.
Feb. 21, 2011
Jawood
Men's 50
791 posts
We are going to play in a 50+ league for the first time. At the organizational meeting, I looked around and noticed that most there in attendance were quite older than us. I felt that I should mention that our team was pretty strong and was concerned about them playing a much younger team.

They told us that they knew who we are, would enjoy the competition and always welcome the "youngsters" to senior softball. They feel that the five runs an inning and protective screen is equalizer enough.

My point to all this is I just came out of that meeting admiring these guys' competitive nature and attitudes, like taits and kbl mentioned. Very inpsiring! I will remember this in the years ahead as we will be the ones welcoming players to the senior family.
Feb. 21, 2011
kbl
Men's 60
528 posts
Jawood--i am turning 66 on friday and sometimes think i am soon going to retire from softball, but then i see these guys (70s) playing - that like keeps me wanting to keep playing. i played on 55 and 60 teams last year and now its time i play mainly with 65s. ken
Feb. 21, 2011
Tate22
Men's 55
259 posts
We are fortunate in Southern CA to have two quality options for tournaments between SoCAlSSA and SSUSA. I could care less that the Top Gun event is ring option. What I care about is that my team will be able to compete against 3 other quality teams in our own age bracket. Between the two organizations there will be a quality event on good fields at least once a month ALL YEAR LONG. It is also interesting to note that a 50's team is coming from New York to play in the Top Gun event. I applaud any team that chooses to compete rather than nitpick the tournament offerings to death. To Marv's point, it takes a lot of work and commitment to get a tournament schedule together. We should be supporting those groups that are getting it done. Jawood - get your competitive Northwest brethren down to So CA, same with Colorado and AZ teams. Coyotes from Utah make it down at least once per year. You won't be disappointed. Rings, schmings, just chose the "play ball" option.

Don Newhard
Nighthawks 55's
Feb. 21, 2011
Jawood
Men's 50
791 posts
We would love to travel more, but no $$. We will be looking for other options unless the "brass" gives us someone to play against because our days of 2 or 3 team tournaments are over.
Feb. 21, 2011
stick8
1264 posts
Jawood I'm sorry to hear you guys might not be traveling. You guys are not only a strong team but are a good bunch of guys. Hopefully we'll be able to get some revenge on you somewhere down the road. Nice uni's too. lol
Hope all is well and all the best to you guys in 2011.
Feb. 21, 2011
Jawood
Men's 50
791 posts
Thanks, stick8. We'll find some funds somewhere to get to a couple, but not as many as we would like. Your team?
Feb. 21, 2011
tinman
Men's 50
75 posts
You guys are scaring me.I am from NJ playing for the NY team.We expect 5+ games on good fields with good balls and use of our senior bats.
Feb. 22, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1964 posts
kbl, Ken-Happy Birthday-and many more.

Mark
Feb. 22, 2011
stick8
1264 posts
Jawood from what I understand we now have a pretty good sponsor on board so I presume we'll play a full schedule but I'm not 100% sure. Hopefully Vegas and Phoenix will be included.
Feb. 22, 2011
birdie
Men's 60
680 posts
ken, It is about time you give us younger guys a break and go play with the old men. Happy Birthday on Friday. Congratulations on the TOC victory. Thanks Harry
Feb. 22, 2011
kbl
Men's 60
528 posts
birdie and Webbie25--thank you Harry and Mark...ken
Feb. 22, 2011
kbl
Men's 60
528 posts
tinman--go to google- topgun tournament san diego ca.com...you can click onto different maps and info. all the complexes are great, especially "field of dreams" this might make you more at ease.... have a good tournament..ken
Feb. 22, 2011
Marv19
Men's 60
433 posts
KBL and Tinman correct me if I'm wrong but you're playing at the Sportplex. Not to be confused with Big League Dreams. Most BLD have 5 to 8 fields. There are 4 or 5 of them here in So Cal. Not big with seniors though. Prices are ridicules, they charge admission and you can't bring coolers in. Plus they really don't want to work with seniors. Ask me how I know :O) The Sportplex are just 3 field complexes. When do you guys get on a plane? Might want to check with SSUSA because the weather isn't looking good 4 this weekend. If you want more info on So Cal Senior softball you can contact me any time. I'd be glad to answer any questions you may have. Marv wwm1@adelphia.net
Feb. 22, 2011
kbl
Men's 60
528 posts
Marv19--i realize you are from S.Cal., but you paint a gloomy picture. most certainly BLDs are nicer, but how bad can these other fields be?

and as far as checking the forecast before getting on the plane- as they say in NYC--"fagettaboutit" .(LOL)

i checked the weather before i flew to the TOC and didnt like it. we won and had one of best weeks in playing senior softball. ken
Feb. 22, 2011
kbl
Men's 60
528 posts
tinman--by the way, i hope you guys have a great tournament and dont worry about other things. have a good time. there is great competition out west. if you need an "old" guy, call me. i can still bang the ball. ken
Feb. 22, 2011
Marv19
Men's 60
433 posts
KBL email me directly and I can give you a better picture. As for the fields they are nice. I believe one or both have artificial turf. So be sure the outfielders have on your underarmor in that the turf can sting when diving on it. As for the weather I can tell you So Cal weather is pretty accurate. Too bad you guys cant stay over for a another week because we have an event the following weekend in Lancaster. We always like to meet guys from out of state. What team are you on? Marv
Feb. 22, 2011
kbl
Men's 60
528 posts
Marv---i was just helping tinman with some info. you picked up that i play and am going to san diego. i wish i was. i play for a pa 60s and 65s team and also NY Motion from LI.

i loved SoCal when i was there in the 60s in the navy - Long Beach and SD.

i hope the weather will be warm for the tournament. thanks, ken
Feb. 22, 2011
Marv19
Men's 60
433 posts
Too bad Ken, Governor "Moon Beam" needs the extra money you know :O) In the 60s I had 3 cars upolstered in T.J. That is when all you had to worry about was being arrested for something you didn't do! tinman if you need any info just send me an email
Feb. 22, 2011
kbl
Men's 60
528 posts
Marv19--why doesnt SSUSA or Top Gun use BLD complex. Does it cost too much?? or is it because the low turn out? ken
Feb. 22, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4331 posts
Chances are their senior bat police and cost of fields.
Feb. 22, 2011
kbl
Men's 60
528 posts
taits--are those the fields that dont allow senior bats??
Feb. 22, 2011
Marv19
Men's 60
433 posts
Ken, You pose two issues. Low turnout in my opinion is because too many tournaments so close together. This Top Gun Tournament is the first for this time of the year. SSUSA here to fore has not had a presents in So Cal. We (SCSSA) had a tournament scheduled on 2/19-2/20. They know we had this date but chose to have theirs anyway. We draw teams and they draw teams. The end result is delusion. It makes no sense to have two senior events a week apart. Notice there is only one 60 team entered. I can tell you there are a lot more 60 teams in So Cal. Also there was a tournament in Palm springs two or three weeks ago as well.

As for BLD when I contacted them 2 years ago when Donnie and I were forming our association the first words out of the GMs mouth was "seniors can't afford us" It went down hill from there. Yes they are expensive and the rules are absurd IMO. Yes Sportsplex is nice but they relaxed some rules for this Top Gun event. Plus you can only get 3 fields at a time that are priced right up there with BLD. We need at least 4 and our big one we used all 8. Most of the time we need 5 or 6 fields. As with BLD you have to pay a $3 admission and you can't bring coolers in. (not this weekend so they say) You may not know it but we have tail gate parties in Hemet and so far no one has said anything. If you want water at BLD you have to pay for it or use a drinking fountain. There are always long lines at the one snack shack. They serve alcohol there as well. They tell me there have been a few incidents that were alcohol related when we talk to our teams. Not to mention the 30% higher cost to us compared to Temecula which is the most expensive one for us. No BLD is not our favorite. We feel we have the finest, repeat the finest, softball venues in So. California for our seniors to play on. www.socalssa.com Take a look. Hope this answers your questions. Marv
Feb. 22, 2011
kbl
Men's 60
528 posts
marv19--yes thanks. i will check it out. you guys have many complexes and you also have nicer weather than back east. here, in pa, we have to travel 60 miles to play in a nice complex.

thanks, ken
Feb. 22, 2011
curveball
Men's 65
400 posts
Marv, guess I misunderstood your comments. Sounded like the rings were free, not having to pay extra for them. But, weren't year long tournaments $325, and the ring tournament $550? The only difference was the rings, so many teams contributed to rings that winners didn't have to buy. For not costing a dime extra, the $225 per team would certainly seem to me they were extra.
I do understand your predicament with tourneys close together. As a team, we try to support all of you assoc. We want as many choices as possible. Competition is good. LVSSA and St. George have always clashed, but both manage to survive with a good product. I think you guys have give a lot of us another venue with a closer place to play, very important in weak economy, hats off to you for that. I also laud Top Gun for their fund raising efforts for their group, also giving us another venue and giving support to several guys who come to you tourneys from the SD area. It's nice for them to be able to play at home once in a while.
Lastly, some of us do like BLD and the water I purchased at BLD wasn't any more expensive than the water I purchased at Temecula! BLD has some fun fields to play on, usually in very great condition.
Feb. 22, 2011
Marv19
Men's 60
433 posts
Curveball, We really do appreciate the support. There would be no US if it were not for a YOU. Also having sensible discourse is always stimulating and hopefully informative to the many that read and do not post. While I appreciate your views on BLD it doesn't change the fact that they are more expensive than any of our other venues. We are a business and need to justify the prices we charge you guys. We have to have pricing that will relate to a decent price for teams to play. You will have to admit $325 is a very good price considering we give out $1000 in prize money most of the time. This is in addition to the $2,000 we give out at the end of the season to the Chase Winners. The consensus was it wasn't prudent to peruse BLD as a venue for our tournaments. It reminds me of the dog chasing its tail I spent recently with fountain Valley. Mile Square has to be the most expensive and rule burdened facility around. Reminds me why I left Orange County to move to Temecula in 1989. I asked after she sent me the pricing "what was the senior discount?" The response I got was take it or leave it. Then after 3 1/2 months of my application I didn't get any dates anyway! As for the rings. Honestly... who gives out 14 per (most give 12) team rings and charges only $550 per team? We give out more rings and charge less than any other association. Most including this weekend have ring options. That means if you win you have to buy the ring. Jostens' cheapest ring is $179. We really try to make an extra effort to make our tournaments different and more enjoyable than others. You have to remember we have been at this only one year. We are always open for suggestions and you're more than welcome to send us yours any time. Thank you for the honest debate.
Feb. 22, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4331 posts
kbl,
The last reply was supposed to be bat policy but basically is the same.
BLD corporate policy was that the U-2 could not be used. At the time it was the only one seniors bat used that was mentioned or banned... Now however, there are many bats that are close or better than the u-2. Many were back them as well, but still allowed.
The actual policy may be same or have gotten worse, but their field rental cost is more than the others parks. Call them and ask they will specify which are banned I believe if asked.
Feb. 22, 2011
Marv19
Men's 60
433 posts
Good point Taits. I forgot there was another good reason we didn't pursue them.
Feb. 22, 2011
Omar Khayyam
986 posts
There's no doubt that it is fun to play in a simulated Yankee Stadium in a BLD park. The restrooms are nice; beer available is a plus for some; the snack bar area is air-conditioned and you can watch multiple games from there; there are batting cages to warm up; the artificial turf infield is preferred by some (including myself). That said, my team is not a big fan of BLD parks.

1. They don't allow the Miken U2. Unfortunately, as a non-sponsored team of primarily weekend players, we tend to only have one or two composites each and they are Mikens (durability and pop). Getting outhit by a team of Combats while our bats are banned leaves a bad taste.

2. The charge for entering the facility, although nominal ($2.50) is still an irritation when you have already paid an expensive tournament fee.

3. The ban on coolers, outside food, bringing in a Big Gulp, etc. is expensive and also irritating to most players. The effort, of course, is to force you to patronize the snack bar, which leads to the next point...

4. The snack bar is incredibly slow, which results in lines, and the product is often second-rate as well as being overpriced compared to most softball venues.

5. The fields are not well-maintained, especially in the spring, when outfielders can find huge mudholes; the scoreboards do not always work; the water fountains do not always work. You get the idea; for a high-priced park which also charges admission to players and spectators alike, to have shoddy conditions is unacceptable.

That's why we always think twice about attending a tournament at a BLD park.
Feb. 23, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4331 posts
Omar,
There are many good bats that are allowed in Manteca BLD which I figure you are talking about.
The Combats and some Worth and one or two Easton's also fair well. I think the BLD are geared towards
U-trip ruled bat wise, but they are clueless when it comes to what is being done with the bats. They also cater to the younger crowd and need to in order to get by. Not unlike some others who bring in others ages with the so called future in mind... like 10 years away stuff.
The alway have had the gate fee usually 3 bucks but you get a tokin worth 50 cents for later use in the expensive eatery they have which is good food as I remember.
Your right on the coolers too, you can leave them in the lot and make trips back and fourth go get water but that's it, water... I use water and the other
single mixes for them.
Food is slow but it also depends on traffic.
Fields are excellently maintained imo. but wet weather will cause problems wherever you go.
The FOD in Fresno was the only park that allowed SR bats and had no gate fee. It was a privately owned park. Now its city owned. But they bumped me out of at least three T's to allow the kids in instead because they made more money off them with fees and gate fees.
They are good in the summer when the ground is dry and fields can be worked. Doesn't work well with wet dirt ground anywhere at any park.
Astroturf is ok but the drainage has to be good there too.
Manteca is a good BLD complex.
Feb. 23, 2011
curveball
Men's 65
400 posts
I thought we used UII's at BLD in Las Vegas at the Winter Worlds! Is my mind worse than I thought? Anyone else remember?
Feb. 23, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
I long ago made an agreement with myself NEVER to play anywhere that I had to pay a gate fee for the 'privilege" of playing on their fields after an entry fee had already been paid on my behalf.

Kind of like paying an admission fee at the mall for the right to shop in their stores and pay even more money. Yes it is America, free enterprise and all, but at some point we have to stop being sheep.
Feb. 23, 2011
kbl
Men's 60
528 posts
Gary19--everyone deals differently with situations that come up in life. i made an agreement with myself not to let a $3.00 gate fee get in my way of playing in any softball tournament ever.

what would you do if you got to a tournament and you found out at the gate, you had to pay a fee? would you turn around and not play that w/e?
Feb. 23, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
I understand, and clearly the amount is not the issue. At some point people in general need to take some sort of stand against gouging.

I do my damndest to find out ahead of time. To pay admission AFTER the entry fee is just absurd.

P.T. Barnum is still correct.
Feb. 23, 2011
Tate22
Men's 55
259 posts
The biggest problem with the BLD's we've played at is that they treat senior tournaments like nuisances, not good customers. We played at a Top Gun event in 2010 at the Palm Springs BLD. Their local leagues took precedence over the tournament, which caused 8-hour gaps between games. We were forced to play shorter games and go with 1-1 counts in the middle of the event.

Again, we are fortunate in SO Cal to have SOCALSSA (Marv & Donnie), Top Gun, and SSUSA putting on good events all year long. I'd rather play as many events a possible than contribute to the "gripe chorus" about every little thing. One day, we will no longer have the option to play!
See you on the fields;
Don Newhard
Nighthawks 55's
Feb. 23, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
BAAAAAAAAAAAA...............
Feb. 23, 2011
kbl
Men's 60
528 posts
Tate22--don, thank...ken
Feb. 23, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Okay, so maybe that was a bit harsh. But of course there will come a day when we can no longer play. To me, at least, that doesn't mean we have to bend over for everything.
Feb. 23, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4331 posts
Tate22,
The Manteca BLD does that also. Played in a T a few years ago where we had to stop early so the kids could play. Some teams really got screwed.
You would think those setting it up would have that worked out well in advance. Or they knew but didn't let on about it for fear of loosing teams.
Feb. 23, 2011
TGIII
Men's 60
89 posts
TOMAR77...I appreciate your comments but I feel compelled to clarify some of your comments. I'm in a position to make these corrections as the current President of the Top Gun Senior Softball Association.

1) The Top Gun Senior Softball Association was created to give senior softball players an avenue to play in a competitive softball environment.

2) The Top Gun Championships this week is an SSUSA sanctioned tournament and NON of the proceeds are going to our association. THIS IS NOT A MONEY MAKING TOURNAMENT FOR TOP GUN.

3) This tournament was created through a collective partnership with SSUSA; Sportsplex USA; San Diego Sports Council; and the Top Gun Senior Softball Association.

4) Through this tournament, Top Gun Senior Softball is hoping to bring more attention to the fun, comaraderie, and passion that senior softball provides for all of us. As Don (Tate22) stated it's all about great competition on excellent fields in good weather.

5) Top Gun Senior Softball is honored to have our Association name attached to this major tournament. Being associated with SSUSA; Sportsplex; and the San Diego Sports Council to bring a quality event to San Diego is first and foremost in my opinion. The ring design is the decision of SSUSA not The Top Gun Senior Softball Association.

6) Top Gun Senior Softball has a long standing history dating back to 1992 when our 60's team first stepped out on the field in a sanctioned Senior Softball Tournament. Since then we have grown to eleven teams (8 mens and 3 womens) ranging in age groups 50+ - 75+. I'm proud of our history and reputation in the senior softball community.

7) We will be hosting three SSUSA Top Gun qualifying tournaments throughout the year at a cost of $325 per tournament and I hope your team will join us.

Lastly, I would like to thank the teams from Arizona, Nevada, Texas, New York for coming to San Diego to compete and supporting senior softball.

Kevin Evans
Top Gun Senior Softball
Feb. 23, 2011
Sweet P
Men's 60
168 posts
Curveball,
U are correct, Ultra II's were allowed at BLD Cathedral City and Chino Hills last year. Per Nate Hines, they will also be allowed at ASA senior tournaments again this season at BLD parks. Nate has a few 1-day ASA senior events scheduled at BLD this season (check the ASA website).

Phillip Cobbs
West Coast
Feb. 23, 2011
TOMAR77
Men's 55
197 posts
WOW! a, in the know answer to my question from my Thread! First off all it really doesn"t bother me that there were a lot of conversations going on throughout the Thread , other than the original point, I say have at it, enjoy the bantering. Kevin we met a little while back when you gave a eulogy to a mutual friend Craig , a accurate heartfelt rememberance to a fellow Senior Softball Player. Thank you for a full explanation about the decision re: the Tourney in the San Diego Area. As I said your organization is solid , my only point in the end is to make the awards "neutral". I am all in favor of the success of this Tourney , our organization looks forward to participating in the future as we have in the past. Our 65 Team did participate in your new Ring Tournament, word is they are enjoying themselves.
Feb. 23, 2011
TOMAR77
Men's 55
197 posts
Marv,both the 55 & 60 Git-R-Done teams are register to play in Lancaster , Ca
Tommy
Feb. 24, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4331 posts
I was told that Vegas BLD also allowed the U-2 .
I've played in Cathedral City twice and was only allowed the bat one of those times. This was a long time ago.
I think they are finding they haven't realized the fear they thought would happen regarding injuries.
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