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Discussion: Bat Doctor Needed

Posted Discussion
Feb. 26, 2011
Airbosn
Men's 65
321 posts
Bat Doctor Needed
This past week saw 5 brand new, out of the shipping box bats broken on the first few swings. All the bats were Miken Red Ultra or Ultra II. 2 of the batters were in their seventies, the rest late sixties. gentlemen, things need to be done. In our after game "Shot the breeze" we discussed a few items to put pressure on the bat makers.

If paid by credit card contact your card bank and make a claim for defected equipment.

Start a blog, facebook, my space, etc to start more threads about poor performing equipment.

Frequently call the manufacturer with your concerns.

Call the suppliers about your issues.

And finally boycott the product. BTW, do all this in a polite way.
Feb. 26, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
I think you have one thing going against you.
Those doing it (having them shaved, rolled, etc) will most likely not have anything done to them which is unfortunate.
Those who know what is going and by whom, will keep it it quite, like the Reebok bats that were sent back after breaking but found to be shaved.
Its money coming back when they have to buy another one, somewhere.
Unless the assn's actually go through the motions and find the owners, and give them their just dues, it will continue.
I doubt peer pressure will work because most likely they use the same bat, knowingly or not.
Feb. 26, 2011
roach
9 posts
Why would you shave an UltraII they are already the thinnest bat on the market thats why they are so hot.Rolling them is a risk too because they are so thin.I would think probably that the bat Surgeons roll the bats before they shave them as not to crunch the thin composite just a guess but only makes sense
Feb. 26, 2011
wagon487
Men's 50
522 posts
Guys,. I don't think he was talking about swinging a shaved bat, he was talking about how easy new bats break and what we can do to fight the no return policy from Miken.
Feb. 26, 2011
saddlebrookrick
55 posts
wagon487 has it right.
Feb. 26, 2011
SCRAPPY6
55 posts
I am going to try to make this very simple. I have worked with Steeles, Debeer, Worth, and Combat.
This is the way it works. Increase performance -- decrease durability. It is that simple. You can get technical but basically that is it!!
If you want a warranty you pay for it. With top level bats for USSSA or ASA the cost is around $300 retail (with a warranty). For our Senior bats the cost is around $190. The warranty replacement cost is built into the cost of the bat.
If you press Miken, Combat, etc into warrantees on senior bats you will be paying $300 plus.
I am pretty big (260 pounds) and hit the ball hard. I have Combats and Ultra IIs that I use. I have broken some, but not that many.
1. I alone use my bats. They are not team bats.
2. I rarely use them for batting practice.
3. I always make sure temperatures are over 65 degrees. If colder I might use a USSSA bat.

Many times balls are stored in cold areas. If they are stored at under 72 degrees they may damage bats. If the ambient air temperature is 68 degrees at game time, but the balls were stored in a shed overnight at 45 degrees, you have a great possibility of damaging your bat.
For every 1 degree temperature change there is approximately 5 pounds of compression change in the softball. This a rough estimate and is not linear. If the balls are stored at 60 degrees instead of the 72 degrees that they are tested at you have a differnce of 12 degrees or approximately 60 pounds of compression change. That 375 compression ball will feel more like a 435 compression ball and that will effect your bat when you hit it.
It is more technical than that but it gives you a rough idea.

There are many variables in this game. I just wanted to point out a few.
Some smart guy once said "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" or something like that.
Scrappy6
Feb. 27, 2011
leftyfalcon
Men's 65
158 posts
Lenny I always said you had guns in them arms. Good luck on getting some new bats. I know if the bat breaks at the handle. They'll replace it for they did one on mine. Now that's the handle not cracking at the sweet spot.
Feb. 27, 2011
DoubleL10
Men's 65
811 posts
But, Joe, for some of us the handle IS the sweet spot! I did break a Toxic XXX about 1 inch above the tape! Strangest thing I've ever seen but then I was told that particular batch had some problems...
Feb. 27, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
SCRAPPY is exactly correct. And from whom have you heard that here before?
Feb. 27, 2011
cpalger
Men's 50
3 posts
Good morning,these bats are not shaved at all. We have found that the black Ultra II are braking as well as the red ones. We broke 2 in the last touney. We are only getting a couple of hundred hits out of them. Does anyone have a better bat to use?
Feb. 27, 2011
DCPete
234 posts
Anyone that would shave or roll an Ultra II deserves to end with a broken, no-return bat . . .
Feb. 27, 2011
wagon487
Men's 50
522 posts
cpalger, start swinging the combat, either the MM or grey! i have 5 of them.
Feb. 27, 2011
cpalger
Men's 50
3 posts
Thanks wagon487, I appreciate the advise.
Feb. 27, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
i'm with wagon on this,i have been swinging combats since 07 and have broke only 2(gray 26 el approx 1000 swings,and a red 10" barrel 26 el with approx 250 swings)don't know why the red one went quicker.i have 4 grays and 2 yellows at the moment,and just rotate them for use.
Feb. 27, 2011
bucs15
19 posts
I have posted a couple times on the durability of the Miken11.This is my 3rd season in senior ball and to date have broken 5 ultras, one on the very first swing of the tour.I always use my yellow MM for batting pratice and it is breaking in great.As soon as my last Miken breaks I'm switching to the yellow MM combat.
Feb. 27, 2011
bucs15
19 posts
I have posted a couple times on the durability of the Miken11.This is my 3rd season in senior ball and to date have broken 5 ultras, one on the very first swing of the tour.I always use my yellow MM for batting practice and it is breaking in great.As soon as my last Miken breaks I'm switching to the yellow MM combat.Scrappy is correct if you want durability and return policy plan on spending 300$.
Feb. 28, 2011
Pull My Finger
69 posts
I don't know where you guys shop at, but lots of bats that have durability and warranty can be bought for about the same price as the senior bats. I know the Miken Freak Plus can be bought for about $190. And it has a one year warranty. Yeah, it takes a couple hundred swings to "break in" but that's what BP is for.
Feb. 28, 2011
wagon487
Men's 50
522 posts
PMF, the problem is they are not senior bats, no matter how broken in it is, it will never be as hot as a senior bat.
We all know where to get utrip bats with warranties. You make it seem seniors don't like to take bp, we live for bp in my neck of the woods.
Feb. 28, 2011
Pull My Finger
69 posts
I don't know where you guys shop at, but lots of bats that have durability and warranty can be bought for about the same price as the senior bats. I know the Miken Freak Plus can be bought for about $190. And it has a one year warranty. Yeah, it takes a couple hundred swings to "break in" but that's what BP is for.
Feb. 28, 2011
Pull My Finger
69 posts
wagon

Are you able to hit a 44/375 softball 300+ feet with a senior bat?
If you can, than you should be able to do it with a warrantied bat as well. Just maybe not as often. So unless BP to you is nothing but home run derby, you shouldn't have much problem. Lots of 60's guys can do it.
Feb. 28, 2011
wagon487
Men's 50
522 posts
PMF, why would I bring a knife to a gun fight? it's not about hitting home runs, it about the ball jumping into the gaps. I swing combats, I have no problem with bats breaking. I've broken 2 grey combats in the last three years, both with over 1000 swings, i'm sitting on 5 right now, all broken in but the new blue MM. You keep swinging your utrip bat in senior ball.
Feb. 28, 2011
Pull My Finger
69 posts
So you need a senior bat to hit singles?
Feb. 28, 2011
tg69
307 posts
And I thought the young guys were on an ego trip.Viagra and senior bats make old guys want to do something now that they couldnt do 30 years ago.
Feb. 28, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Those last two posts might be the winners of the day.
Feb. 28, 2011
wagon487
Men's 50
522 posts
and i don't need a senior bat to hit singles or home runs, but like i said "WHY WOULD I BRING A KNIFE TO A GUN FIGHT?" Why wouldn't I use the best equipment out there? Why wouldn't I level the playing field?
Feb. 28, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
wagon you put it the way it is,knife in a gun fight,who looses,you do if you have the knife.

tg69 nope still do both ,always been able to hit the long ball in softball regardless of equipment.
Feb. 28, 2011
Shut Up & Pitch
55 posts
wagon487

It's only a "knife to a gun fight" if you can't hit with a non-senior bat very well.
Feb. 28, 2011
Shut Up & Pitch
55 posts
Let me get this straight!
Knife to a Gun fight.

Knife = Loser of the fight.
Gun = Winner of the fight.

So evidently, your a Loser if you don't use a senior bat.

I didn't know that your a Winner or Loser depending on which bat you use.

I was under the impression it had something to do with ability.
Feb. 28, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1967 posts
The point is that to compete with the best you have to use the best. It isn't a matter of being able to hit singles or dingers with USSSA bats. Do you want to be in an important game and hit the one that would have been an extra base hit or an HR with a senior bat, but doesn't get to the gap or over the fence because of the difference and you lose? Plus the mental factor-a person has a higher confidence factor and is looser and a better hitter when he knows he has the best equipment.
Feb. 28, 2011
tg69
307 posts
The point for me is Im not going to pay $200.00 for a non warranty bat a get maybe 50 swings on it($4.00 a swing) and I can get the same results from an NSA or USSS bat.And for all that say they wouldnt hit with a shaved bat,they are just kidding their self because if you hit with a senior bat of any brand thats what you are doing.They are a glorified,legalized shaved bat ,same thing.
Feb. 28, 2011
softballnuts
78 posts
After reading this thread.

I have noticed that some think that the Senior Bat is some how, many times better than any other bat on the market. Is it distance or what?

So I have a question for you.

If hitter X hits 44/375 softballs 200 feet using any non-senior, warrantied bat on the market.

So how far will the same hitter X hit the same 44/375 softballs using any senior bat?

Give a straight answer.
This should be interesting.
Feb. 28, 2011
wagon487
Men's 50
522 posts
very well said Webbie! I wouldn't pay 200 for a bat that gets 50 swings, that's why i swing combat! TG do you even play senior ball? ANd finally, it's not the bow and arrow, it's the archer. Just because you have the top of the line equipment, doesn't mean you are a top of the line player. Got to have some skills.
Feb. 28, 2011
wagon487
Men's 50
522 posts
softballnuts, it's not about the distance. Why do I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall right now? Reaching for my 800 ibuprofen right now!
Feb. 28, 2011
bucs15
19 posts
Wagon487 ditto here,let me quote a old move. "Some people you just cannot reach".Sound familiar.Name that flick.
Feb. 28, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
So much for so many of you guys all this time trying to claim the senior bats aren't special.

Webbie, those guys who feel inferior or lacking confidence using today's USSSA bats probably aren't going to win much no matter what they use.

wagon, by the same token just because you don't use top of the line equipment doesn't mean you are going to suck if you do have skills.
Feb. 28, 2011
Pitcherman
Men's 50
40 posts
It is a simple issue and if you don't get it, you don't get it or you just want to try and antagonize people. You use the senior bats because you want and have to use the best equipment you can to compete against the other teams that use them as it gives you the best chance of winning. I completely agree that senior bats are not necessary and should not be allowed but THEY ARE! GET OVER IT! The same hit with a USSSA bat that may be snagged by an infielder is past him for a hit quicker with a senior bat. The same single between 2 outfielders with a USSSA bat may be a double with a senior bat. It doesn't have to all be about distance, its about hits period. Even the best hitters could not argue that a hotter bat is not an advantage unless they just want to argue! In the big tournaments many here play in, you can not let the other team have the advantage of a better weapon, so you use the best weapon you can.
Feb. 28, 2011
Snot Nose Kid
39 posts
Well let me see here!

If the "KNIFE" is the warrantied bat that hits the ball 200 feet.

Then the "GUN" (senior bat) should hit the ball about 600 yards.

Is that what that guy means about taking a "Knife to a Gun fight?"
Feb. 28, 2011
Airbosn
Men's 65
321 posts
Scrappy, I agree with most you posted, however, the compamy I worked for provided the raw materials(resin, rosin, adhesives, binder, etc) to the manufacturer who made the finally product, I can say that certain companies want the material on their QA target, other companies gave a plus or minus and sometimes to a large degree in order to buy off-spec material that would go into the same end product. I would venture a guess that the QA in the buyer of off spec materials could care less about getting their product right...Just one example, a bat, a very popular one state that it was 27oz, when placed on a certified scale it read 30.0 oz. Performance and durability can be met for a reasonable price.
Feb. 28, 2011
wagon487
Men's 50
522 posts
Snot Nose Kid, way to not read the whole thread! Good first post!
It not about the distance, oh, I give up!
Feb. 28, 2011
wagon487
Men's 50
522 posts
Just read pitcherman post, it says it all.
Feb. 28, 2011
Airbosn
Men's 65
321 posts
Scrappy, I agree with most you posted, however, the compamy I worked for provided the raw materials(resin, rosin, adhesives, binder, etc) to the manufacturer who made the finally product, I can say that certain companies want the material on their QA target, other companies gave a plus or minus and sometimes to a large degree in order to buy off-spec material that would go into the same end product. I would venture a guess that the QA in the buyer of off spec materials could care less about getting their product right...Just one example, a bat, a very popular one state that it was 27oz, when placed on a certified scale it read 30.0 oz. Performance and durability can be met for a reasonable price.
Feb. 28, 2011
Omar Khayyam
989 posts
Back to softballnuts and his honest question about distance difference with a senior bat. I have an answer.

I have played on the same field for 57 years. The left-field fence has been raised more than once (it is 260 feet away), but it has always been 260 feet away.

In my first 50 years at that field, I never reached the fence on the fly. In fact, a good hit for me was usually about 40 feet short of the fence. Admittedly I was using a wooden bat most of those years, and the last years an aluminum single wall.

Then I moved up to an aluminum double wall. It didn't seem to have much more pop than my single wall—maybe I hit it within 25-30 feet of the fence. A teammate bought one of those new Mikens, not the original, but the early Ultra 2. He was generous and let others on the team use it.

I liked its balance. It was lighter than I had been swinging (27 vs 29/30). In the first game with it, I hit the fence twice! Once, about 10 feet up, a shot of about 280 feet. No change in my swing style or bat speed (although the Miken might have swung faster).

There you have it. Same guy, but gradually older and older. Increased my range from about 220 to 280. That is a significant difference! In all my first 50 years of playing, I never hit a home run, in the park or over the fence. Since using the Miken, I hit home runs every season (not a lot, I'm still a pipsqueak), but enough that fielders back up for me.

Nonetheless, I'm one of those purists who think the game has changed for the worse with the composite bats and would love to go back to double wall, or even single wall, which is what I play with in league play.
Feb. 28, 2011
tg69
307 posts
Amen Omar,nuf sed
March 1, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1967 posts
Softballnuts-I have had the same questions and tried to pay attention to distance, which I never did before. The difference is astonishing. I used to joke that even though I hit a lot of home runs, it was a consistency thing and they just dropped over the fence at 310. 340 was a long shot for me. When the Demarini Ultimate Weapon came out a guy handed it to me to try and after a few swings I was astonished at the 350 plus shots off of it. Then came the double wall and the shots were 370. Then one spring we came out and some guys that didn't even have 300 power were hitting the ball over the lights. A friend handed me his Ultra II-the original and said try it. I hit the first pitch and for the first time in my life I stopped, gasped and watched in amazement as the ball went nearly 440 feet. Guys having a beer in the parking lot showed us where the ball landed. 400 plus shots happen occasionally now and I never cease to be amazed by what these bats do.The mental part is the fences look like they are at 200 feet at times.
I take BP with my orange crush occasionally and will hit a few out, but I would say the difference is 100 feet-easily between that and the U2. Plus, don't forget the balls went from 52 COR, to 50, to 47 and to 44/375. The difference from a wood bat to U2 may be 200 feet.
Just my observations-unscientific, but you should get the idea and my view of the difference.
I would love to see more guys with their view on this.
March 1, 2011
leftyfalcon
Men's 65
158 posts
Webbie25 when we were useing double wall bats in ASA we were useing 525/47core. Now depending on the brand of the ball there would be a big difference in distance.I've never heard of anyone increaseing the distance by 140ft. You must be a big guy. Now if your hitting that distance with the U2 and the same ball that we use in the tournaments I play in the south east. I want you on our team. I'm 185 lbs. and hit alot. The most difference I can get between a utrip bat and the new Ultra2 bats is 30ft depending on the ball. Just me talking.
March 1, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1967 posts
I've wondered, but you can ask my teammates. It could be my swing happens to mesh with these bats better. I'm 6' about 215, but should be less-too much stomach. My arms are not 'guns' like a lot of guys. But the difference has been real for me.
March 1, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1967 posts
Sometimes you post something that is meant for one thing and comes off another. I meant this as a comparison, not an ego trip. There are so many guys much more powerful. I'm just happy to be playing. Sorry.
March 1, 2011
leftyfalcon
Men's 65
158 posts
I'd didn't take it that way. I've believe you must have a pretty good eye for the sweet spot. I wish I could hit the sweet spot every time. I'm getting to old now to worry about it now. If I can't do it yeath as much times that I normally hit a week and 62. I'll just go for .700 or better and 1 or 2 HR's a tourney.
Joe Lefty Falcon #8
Wild Bunch Softball
60 Major
March 1, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
The other thing about the special bats is the relatively enormous size of the sweet spots. I know it can happen, but it is much harder to mishit a ball with the special bats, particularly the Mikens.
March 1, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1967 posts
I heartily agree with you, Gary. One thing that would make a noticeable difference without 'cooling' the bats is a much smaller sweet spot.
March 1, 2011
JamesLG
299 posts
I like the idea of a smaller sweet spot. I have one of the original red Jeff Hall Mayhams that has nearly the pop of a U2 but the sweet spot it small. I would not mind seeing a change in that direction. You would see a lot more warning track mis hits that would be caught.

Thank you:

James
March 1, 2011
DCPete
234 posts
There are many arguments that can be made for or against the composite Ultras & their kin. But the argument that you "shouldn't be able to do now what you couldn't do 30 years ago" is not valid. It's called Technology, it ain't going away in our lifetime and how many people on this board would ever complain about being able to use Viagra???
March 2, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Wow Pete, tell me you aren't embarrassed to have posted that. Please.
March 2, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Pete, now that I think about it is your Viagra letting you do what you 'couldn't do 30 years ago', or just allowing you to continue what you were?

Big difference! And that is what the special bats are doing in many cases, and it is just silly. Let's start senior basketball with trampolines under the baskets so we can all dunk and rebound better.
March 2, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1967 posts
Look at golf-now they have to make the courses a lot longer because of the technology. 300 yard par 3, 700 yard par 5 coming to a course near you. Only difference is you don't have to defend against a golf drive so they can make the courses longer. It makes it tough on old bodies to cover another 25 feet of outfield to make the fences 325.


(We don't need no stinkin' Viagra!!) :-)
March 2, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Webbie, the other difference is I don't think the Champions Tour gets to use different equipment than the PGA Tour.

Senior softball players have special bats.
March 2, 2011
tg69
307 posts
Nowhere on ANY post have I seen anything partaining to defensive atvantage.Its all about offense.There are some that say they use the senior bats not to hit the long ball but to hit the gaps,infield and outfield.Dont you think that hitting against 50,60,or 70 year lod men is enough .Dont you think that their skills have deminished or lost a step or two that you as a hitter dont have to have that advantage.Why is it always about hitting?Give a little credit to the defense for being able to still play the game.As I have stated before,a man will be able to hit a softball long after he is able to catch a softball or run in the outfield .Give that some thought before you want hotter bats Keep the integraty of the game and not how I can still hit 900BA.
March 2, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
tg, apparently many don't think that way. :(
March 2, 2011
DCPete
234 posts
Not embarrassed at all, just stating a fact that technology has changed Senior Softball just like it's changed everything else in our lives.
Jack Nicklaus admitted 10 years ago, when he was still playing on the Senior Tour, that he was hitting the ball further than he ever had in his life. He was no longer as strong or flexible but the golf balls & golf clubs had improved so much that he was longer than he had been 30 years ago.
As for Slo-pitch, are Seniors running faster than they should be now that the shoes are lighter & more comfortable? Are we catching more balls than we should be now that the gloves are bigger & lighter? Granted the new bats are the most glaring example of technological improvement but they're all part of the same larger issue.
Not endorsing the use of Ultra 2's but just saying . . .
March 2, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Understood Pete. Though where your analogy falls a bit apart is that in golf, unlike softball, seniors don't have their own special equipment they use. And they don't have special rules just for them.

Yes, the courses have been made longer for the new technology, just like 275' used to be a standard field size and then 300' became much more common.

But none of that explains why seniors have to have special equipment that goes above and beyond the technological advances that the kids are using, or sadly why seniors need all of the whacky rules to accommodate the livelier equipment and subsequent increase in offense.
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