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Online now: 1 member: TABLE SETTER 11; 68 anonymousDiscussion: How many shaved bats in SS
| Posted | Discussion |
| March 10, 2011 garyaz 40 posts | How many shaved bats in SS What percentage of bats in senior softball do you think are shaved? |
| March 10, 2011 Dbax Men's 65 2100 posts | I have no idea, but I do prefer mine hairy. |
| March 10, 2011 Marv19 Men's 60 498 posts | Its hard to believe any are. If you knew how thin they were you'd understand why. Pretty much a waste of money IMO. This is where the iCAP will change things. |
| March 10, 2011 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | Definitely all over and its noted in a post about the returns on the Reebok. |
| March 11, 2011 ju25 Men's 60 236 posts | I would believe that there are a small percentage of shaved and probably a little higher rolled bats at the senior level. There will always be someone trying to gain an advantage. Senior bats are almost as hot as a shaved USSSA stick. In my area(Michigan) I know of 2 upper level players that mess with their bats. One swings a 30oz. Launch and had the rod removed and weight added to the end, the other is known for beating his bats on a bowling ball. IMO there is no need to alter an already hot bat, but I do beleive that if Senior bats are banned there will be a heck of alot more shaved sticks. |
| March 11, 2011 DCPete 409 posts | Absolutely right; just check out EBay & you can buy all the shaved, juiced or rolled bats you want . . . |
| March 11, 2011 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | Not to ignore the fact that just about every well known web site offers them or al least rolling as a SERVICE. SSUSA and some others were informed about this long ago but the tide has only increased as far as being out there and available. Is in essence, it is ignored. So, what does that really mean if ignored as it seems to be, for myself, it is that safety is not a real concern nor is an equal playing field. |
| March 11, 2011 canIjack Men's 60 322 posts | Come on Guys I won't say Definitely All Over. You read a thread and it says 3 were shaved, but it didn't say from who, or which Reeboks were shaved. And why would a senior player need to shave a Senior Bat? I have heard and seen other shaved bats but not a Senior Bat. It really isn't that Serious with us Seniors. BUT... THE YOUNG KIDS, THEY ARE SHAVING EVERYTHING. |
| March 11, 2011 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | canljack, I'll agree with your last sentence. Look in your area for these things, it is easily found in the area near you about 100 places. That is just looking for rolling. Like mentioned on here, but not included in that # is ebay or other sb boards. Just do a search got either "service" for a city or town. Sacramento is full of them as is my area. Pick a state and look...except for a few states that don't have many teams you might have less. |
| March 11, 2011 JamesLG 420 posts | A few years back when the nationals were in Seattle I watched several guys on one of the best teams in the country hitting new bats on the barrell with shot filled rubber mallets. It does not take much effort around a ball field to see players either tapping the barrell of a bat with another bat or something of that sort. Where do you draw the line when the end cap is never removed? Thanks: James |
| March 11, 2011 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | Perhaps this is a good reason for makers to use the 'chip" in bats. Not sure if it would detect some "break in" methods, but some others it should. Last year I went to watch some teams play and say one guy swinging a new bat against an oak tree. Kinda surprised me because the guy is a good player and so is the team. |
| March 11, 2011 leftyodoul Men's 65 106 posts | I really don't have a problem with rolling or other methods that guys use to break in their bats quickly. I don't consider that to be "altering" a bat. The association approved makeup of the bat has not been altered or changed. What I do have a problem with is shaving, endloading of a factory non-endloaded bat or removing the rod from the handle. All of those things would fall under the category of "altering" a bat. If the manufacturers could come up with a production process whereby the endcap would be a continuous part of the barrel that might go a long ways towards stopping the "Doctoring" of bats. My observation - There seems to be a lot of players questioning (privately) other players equipment but no one really wants to call that player out. |
| March 11, 2011 Marv19 Men's 60 498 posts | Like I said in the earlier post the iCAP will solve the problem. If a bat is rolled, shaved or cracked it will detect it. It will tell you bat speed and the number of hits on the bat. You wont have to call anyone out. If its done like CIF the umpire has to certify the bats as legal before the game. In this case the umpire does it via a software device. If its green its good to go. If its red the bat is removed. Simple right? |
| March 11, 2011 garyheifner 649 posts | In one tourney, I overheard two players talking about whether or not they were going to use their rolled bats in the championship game. They were in a lower age group. In a semi-final game in a ring tourney, we played a team that had about 15 Mikens lined up in the dug out. Yet, 6 or 7 players in a row used the same bat in an inning. It never left the home plate area until we got the 3rd out. Makes you wonder???? Down in fort meyers last year, I heard some guys talking about whether or not their rolled bats were that much better. They thought they were. Strangely, they were sitting in the eating area and didn't care if anyone heard them. The cheaters won't stop until SSWC institutes a life time ban. |
| March 12, 2011 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | GaryHeifner, That won't happen either, because it's the goose (player) that lays the golden egg, the.MONEY. years ago they initiated some 'bans' but some still play and are TD's as well. |
| March 12, 2011 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | marv,lot of the mfg'ers are putting a film inside their bats to help detect shaving,but that doesn't help anything but the mfg'er,and only if said bat is sent in for return. demarini had a chip in one of their bats,not sure why they stopped.i also like the idea of an interlocking cap that can be unscrewed for checking,maybe have it smaller on the inside,so ya can't get into shave it. lefty,rolling does enhance a bats sweetspot,a scientific study by kettering institute.i widens it out so it is esier to hit with the bat,much more than BP could ever do. to me if ya don't want to bp your lazy and don't care about your game. |
| March 12, 2011 leftyodoul Men's 65 106 posts | Mad dog - I read the Kettering study and I do see where you are coming from. However, that study was done using ASA bats. I think that if a study was done using "Senior" bats the results would be a lot less dramatic due to the already thinner walls of the senior bats. |
| March 12, 2011 Marv19 Men's 60 498 posts | The iCAP is a patented product by ASU. It will be out this spring. It will be up to the various sanctioning bodies as to whether they will adapted the product for safety issues. It will be a retrofit item. You send it in and the iCAP is installed. A device like a smart phone that has the ap on it is all you need to detect and download the information. Just pass the device over the cap is all you have to do. If SSUSA or any other body wants to participate in a growing safety issue its up to them. I for one am tired if being a target by 20 year olds on the mound. I got hit in the thigh Tuesday and I'm black an blue in a 7" circle around the ball mark. I didn't have time to flinch. |
| March 12, 2011 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | lefty,doesn't matter what bat you would roll,it still will enhanced the sweet spot of a bat,by making a senior bat sweet spot even larger.also you would be taking at least a 100 swings off the life of a senior bat. marv don't play with them then,only thing i can say about that.yes they can be little d-heads,and when they try it on me,i shoot back.i still can hit a ball pretty hard. |
| March 12, 2011 titanhd Men's 60 638 posts | Players using the same bat doesn't really indicate that a bat is shaved.That's perception and Pure speculation.Our team buys one bat to be used by "the team".If and when it breaks we get together and buy another one.We all have our own bats but,it's much less expensive when 10-12 players are buying one bat than individually buyin one.In our case it has nothing to do with the bat being shaved.Simply a team bat.Some judge too quickly. Marv. Sorry that you got hit,but that doesn't mean that the hitter was swinging a shaved bat.Would you make the same reference if the hitter had been 55? |
| March 12, 2011 Marv19 Men's 60 498 posts | Its common knowledge in Temecula that a lot of the players in rec leagues use shaved bats. Especially the younger guys. When a player after hitting half way up a light pole on 315' fence says "no its not juiced. Its a brand new bat and that how all brand new bats are" Seriously! That's the mentality. He may not have been using one but chances are he was. The city is useless because they say if its stamped ASA thats all they can do. This will work until a serious injury. Then it will be too late. If you don't think bat shaving is rampant then look at it this way. The guy in Phoenix that shaves them is driving a new Corvette. No joke! He gets $100. So how many bats do you have to do to pay for a Z06? |
| March 13, 2011 garyaz 40 posts | Found this on another web site. looks like there is already a fix to the shaving issue. The new system was devolved at the University of Arizona. It is much more than just a chip in the bat as it uses a very complex database with manufactures. This system is very advanced and does more than just preventing shaved and rolled bats from entering the field of play for it also aids the manufactures in other data input as well. Bat doctors will still be able to shave and roll bats however those bats will not be able to bypass the system and make it to the field of play. Many if not all the associations are already on board with the system. This program is not for sale or debate and information about the system is not available to the public. It will be part of bats used in association play. |
| March 13, 2011 Gary19 Men's 50 2609 posts | Let's all be honest here, no one has any facts on how big of a problem it is. I am sure it happens, to what extent NO one will ever know. |
| March 13, 2011 Marv19 Men's 60 498 posts | Yes your are correct Gary but the iCAP will take that percentage to Zero. This is the most innovative product to come to this industry in decades. Just remember you heard it here. :O) Have a good week all |
| March 14, 2011 Govacho Men's 40 12 posts | Well as a catcher I really dont pick up the other teams bat after each hit. But I will pick up the ones that i think are a litte HOT or just dont sound right. I find a lot of shall we say " Miss a lined caps " which in my book can only mean one thing. The ones that get me are the Ultras that teams shave and just drop stupid bombs and act like its stock.. I picked up more than 5 Ultras this weekend all with caps that where so miss lined that when I ran my hand over them I thought I cut myself... |
| March 15, 2011 stick8 1991 posts | Marv19 what is an ICAP and specifically how does it work? AFAIK the only true way to tell if a bat has been shaved is to cut it open. |
| March 15, 2011 Marv19 Men's 60 498 posts | Stick8 I can only tell you what I know from the co-inventor. The product will feed information to a software device like a smart phone. Bat speed, cracks, impact counts, removal of the cap, Rolling and wall thickness. I'm sure there are others but I'm not completely privy to all the specifics. I'm sure when more info is available it will become public. The Patent is going to be held by ASU. The primary reason for the device was to keep cheaters out of the NCAA. The NCAA was going to sanction carbon fiber bats but after test marketing showed that even collage students looking for a major league contract were cheating (Imagine that :O) they pulled the bats and put them on hold. The NCAA is well aware of iCAP so I'm sure they will be in the mix for using the product. From there it will be a trickle down movement. SSUSA is I'm sure on the radar as well. I could see bat manufactures would be on the list as well. |
| March 16, 2011 stick8 1991 posts | Marv19 this sounds like something for down the road. Is their a website I can check out? |
| March 29, 2011 Mario Men's 50 451 posts | Bats are being shaved at the senior level. When the bat sounds different and the ball goes 30-50 feet farther than anyone else is hitting it, the bat is shaved. |
| April 16, 2011 sgtmcfadden 7 posts | I would like to see a bat challenged everytime there is a ball hit over a 300+ foot fence. I played in a tournament this last weekend in Medford,Or. Fence was 315 feet. A player hit it out with a freak with no wind. I pitch and I know how fast that ball took off. Had to be an altered bat. Freaks don't have that much pop.Too bad players don't have enough self esteem to play without cheating. |
| April 16, 2011 sgtmcfadden 7 posts | I would like to see a bat challenged everytime there is a ball hit over a 300+ foot fence. I played in a tournament this last weekend in Medford,Or. Fence was 315 feet. A player hit it out with a freak with no wind. I pitch and I know how fast that ball took off. Had to be an altered bat. Freaks don't have that much pop.Too bad players don't have enough self esteem to play without cheating. |
| April 16, 2011 stick8 1991 posts | I agree with your last sentence sgtmcfadden. What we do here in the leagues I ump in Michigan is if a pitcher gets drilled we automatically check the bat. Unfortunately the only true way to tell if a bat has been shaved is to cut it open. |
| April 16, 2011 titanhd Men's 60 638 posts | sgtmcfadden-you are entitled to your opinion,but a broken in freak is as hot as an Ultra II. The only criteria that you stated was that the "bat was a Freak and doesn't have that much pop" and "you pitch". OH and I almost forgot. "There was no wind". lol! Your perception appears to be,that if a player hits a homerun with anything other than an Ultra or other "Senior" bat when there is no wind that the bat MUST be altered.That simply is not the case in all instances. Mario. "When the bat sounds different and the ball goes 30-50 feet farther than anyone else is hitting it, the bat is shaved." That's quite a statement. The point that I am trying to make is that unless you have xray vision or have some other extraordinary "sound" abilities like Mario has that allows you to substaniate a claim that a bat is shaved.Don't speculate. It appears from the above posts that there is technology in the works for a device that will be able to allow us to make a valid determination.Today the only way is to cut the bat in half or remove the end cap.Yes there are some shaved bats being used but, lets not note someones self esteem or character based on sound,distance,lack of wind or the fact that you pitch. |
| April 16, 2011 titanhd Men's 60 638 posts | sgtmcfadden-you are entitled to your opinion,but a broken in freak is as hot as an Ultra II. The only criteria that you stated was that the "bat was a Freak and doesn't have that much pop" and "you pitch". OH and I almost forgot. "There was no wind". lol! Your perception appears to be,that if a player hits a homerun with anything other than an Ultra or other "Senior" bat when there is no wind that the bat MUST be altered.That simply is not the case in all instances. Mario. "When the bat sounds different and the ball goes 30-50 feet farther than anyone else is hitting it, the bat is shaved." That's quite a statement. The point that I am trying to make is that unless you have xray vision or have some other extraordinary "sound" abilities like Mario has that allows you to substaniate a claim that a bat is shaved.Don't speculate. It appears from the above posts that there is technology in the works for a device that will be able to allow us to make a valid determination.Today the only way is to cut the bat in half or remove the end cap.Yes there are some shaved bats being used but, lets not note someones self esteem or character based on sound,distance,lack of wind or the fact that you pitch. |
| April 17, 2011 Full Monty 88 posts | After reading some of these recent posts I have questions. So if a pitcher gets drilled, the bat used is automatically checked? If the bat is taken or cut open, who pays for it? What happens if the bat is found to be legal, who compensates the owner for the loss of the bat? If a ball is hit just as hard at any player, other than the pitcher, the bat is not checked? Why is it, so many seem to think that any 50+ year old hitting a ball over 300' must be using a Senior or Shaved bat? There are lots of guys that can do it, using standard warrantied bats. Maybe they are just good hitters. I'm sure MM could easily prove that! |
| April 17, 2011 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | hell monty at 61 i can and also with ASA bats(ok just not as easy tho).there are bats being done in senior ball sad to say,most of what is being tho in my personal opinion is that they are being end-loaded some. and oh yeah a broken in freak is nasty,i had one and when it had a little over 500 hits on it it started coming alive,750 oh my,1000 out of this world then it broke around 1200 or so. |
| April 17, 2011 stick8 1991 posts | Answers to your questions Full Monty: 1)In the leagues I ump in Michigan, YES 2)There is no cost to examine or cut a bat open unless the bat is shipped out somewhere. Then the association pays the shipping costs. 3)The governing association 4)In the leagues I ump in Michigan, NO 5)Because there are an increasing amount of rumors specifying such. |
| April 17, 2011 Pull My Finger 81 posts | stick8 So let me get this straight. Nobody will notice or suspect or care a "shaved" bat being used until only AFTER the ball is hit at the pitcher? So as long as batters don't hit the ball up the center nobody cares what bat is used? |
| April 17, 2011 softballnuts 81 posts | stick8 If a 90 pound weakling hits a ball 500 feet you will not say or do anything, but a 6'5" 250 pound guy using a $40 K-Mart special hits a ball at the pitcher, you will take his bat? How does rule prevent dead pull hitters from using shaved bats? When you take a bat do you issue a receipt with your name on it to the bat owner? |
| April 17, 2011 softballnuts 81 posts | stick8 If a 90 pound weakling hits a ball 500 feet you will not say or do anything, but a 6'5" 250 pound guy using a $40 K-Mart special hits a ball at the pitcher, you will take his bat? How does rule prevent dead pull hitters from using shaved bats? When you take a bat do you issue a receipt with your name on it to the bat owner? |
| April 17, 2011 stick8 1991 posts | Answers to Pull My Finger: 1)As an ump I have no way of determining if someone walks up to bat and has a shaved stick in his hand. Of course I have suspicions about some and of course I care. 2)No. That's not what I implied or wrote. Perhaps you need to reread what I wrote and read between the lines a bit. |
| April 17, 2011 stick8 1991 posts | Answers to softballnuts: 1)Yes 2)Nothing "prevents" anyone from using a shaved bat because it's common knowledge players do. You use it at your own risk. 3)No |
| April 17, 2011 softballnuts 81 posts | How is it you can just take somebody's bat and not be charged with theft? If that bat gets lost or stolen while in your possession, won't you be held legally responsible? |
| April 17, 2011 Garocket Men's 55 259 posts | Simple Because the roster you sign says that you agree to play by the rules set forth in the above association. If the rules says that if you hit a pitcher with a ball that your bat can be taken. Once you sign that roster you have agreed to let the association have the bat for testing. Failure to do so will be a lifetime ban for said association Do you guys never read the fine print on the rosters If not that I need to sell you a car with the best warrty that can be bought cuase the fine print will say after 24 hours this warranty is null and void LOL |
| April 17, 2011 tg69 393 posts | One of my young guys hit the pitcher while playing NSA last year.They took his bat and sent it to be compression checked.took 2/3 weeks to get results,found not to be altered and sent his bat back to him.If it had been a shaved bat,he would have been kicked out of NSA for a long while,im thinking maybe 3 years,not exactly sure about time.Hitting a shaved bat would be bad enough but to hit at a pitcher at 50 feet is ridiculus,that is their reasoning behind confiscating a bat that has hit a pitcher. |
| April 17, 2011 Snot Nose Kid 67 posts | It is possible that an umpire could take a whole teams bats. Then what? Forfeit? What happens if one player is using another players bat? So if a team mate uses my bat, accidently hits one at the pitcher, they take my bat? If that is the case then who will bring their own bats to the game? People will just start using everybody else's bat and leave their bats at home for fear of losing their bats. Maybe somebody will borrow the opposing pitchers bat and then hit a ball at him. He will get hit by the ball and lose his own bat all in one play! Garocket will you please loan me your bat? |
| April 18, 2011 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | SNK,if you use someone else's bat you had better know if they had something done to it,and if you find out they are using dirty bats,how about turning them in(by telling your coach,if your not him),and tell them they are no longer welcome on your team.if i find out someone is using dirt it is the first thing i say to them,if they are on my team,i refuse to be called dirty by association with these clown's.also if i'm pitching against them i'll walk the batter on purpose,by throwing 4 balls that can't even be touched,if they ask,i have no prol with telling them to play clean. |
| April 18, 2011 stick8 1991 posts | Softballnuts: 1)Because it's clearly written in the rules established by the leagues I umpire in. If the player(s) or coach object I'll show them the written rule 2) Although it has nothing to do with the issue the answer is yes, we'd be legally responsible. |
| April 18, 2011 stick8 1991 posts | Answers to SNK: 1)It's possible if the other team protests all their bats. If that happened they'd have to find some other bats in a hurry, wouldn't they? 2)Define the context your asking this in 3)If your teammate drills the pitcher with your bat, yes. The decision to bring specific bats to a game lies within each player. Bottom line: If you have a clean bat you need not worry. |
| April 18, 2011 Shut Up & Pitch 67 posts | I fail to understand the relationship of the direction the ball is hit, and weather the bat is shaved or not! |
| April 18, 2011 Full Monty 88 posts | This stupid rule seems to be based on the idea that any ball hit at the pitcher, most likely was being hit from a illegal bat. |
| April 18, 2011 thebull Men's 50 59 posts | sgtmcfadden, please don't be offended but the idea of checking a Bat everytime a ball is hit over a 300' is crazy. Maybe you haven't be exposed to real power hitters, go watch a good Majors or Majors Plus Senior Team. I consider a 350+ hit routine and a good hit over 400', problem is not hitting it out it's keeping it in the Park.I use a Miken Freak in non-Senior Play and when broken-in it hits close to an Ultra 11. I do believe Shaved Bats are a huge problem, I've begun to see a few in Seniors and it's already rampant in USSSA in the Southwest. My Son plays USSSA and a Shaved Bat has become the norm, not the exception. The USSSA has their heads buried in the sand and have ignored the problem so long that it's out of control. A simple compression tester should have been developed so bats could be tested at every Tournament. My 2 cents theBull |
| April 18, 2011 Bubble Gum 122 posts | Thanks Guys After reading these posts, I have to admit I think I like this rule. I have a Freak and Easton that are both legal and the warranties are about to terminate. According to what I have read, all I have to do is hit some balls at the pither and, walla, I get the bats replaced with new ones. Can't complain about that! |
| April 18, 2011 stick8 1991 posts | Wrong Full Monty. You don't understand the rule. If a batted ball drills a pitcher--meaning the ball strikes him at such a high rate of speed that he doesn't have time to react--is when we automatically check the bat. We look for any visible signs that the bat may have been tampered with--end cap, markings for alteration, cracks, dents, etc. Based on that observation if we suspect something we take it away and put it to a compression test. Based on the test result it's determined whether to cut the bat open or not. We've done this numerous times and word gets out very quickly that in our leagues we're serious about getting rid of shaved bats and those who use them. |
| April 18, 2011 Bubble Gum 122 posts | stick8 Does this rule also apply to metal bats? I have some old DeMarini bats that I wouldn't mind having replaced. Also if I pay an Ump to have the bat sent in, I won't even have to hit at the pitcher. A win, win situation. A great way to update a bat inventory. From the time the bat is taken. About how long does it take for the new bat to be sent to me? |
| April 18, 2011 tg69 393 posts | After reading some of these posts,it is clear to me that growing OLDER clearly doesnt mean growing up. |
| April 18, 2011 titanhd Men's 60 638 posts | Hey stick.You and I both know that any well broken in bat will fail the compression test.You know what I swing and their age. There is no way any of my bat(s)will pass this test.They all have more than 1000 swings and they haven't been altered.I'd submit to the test but, there would be quite an issue if anyone stated that they were going to cut one of my bats in half. $300.00 up front and you can cut it into twelve pieces but, what's mine is mine and what's yours is yours. |
| April 18, 2011 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | hey guys,it seems most don't understand any bat that is taken must be returned if clean and with no damaged done to it,if cut open it must be replaced if found to be clean,there fore no bat should be taken with out a receipt given to the player who owns it.so i'm ok if they want to take my bat as long as there is a receipt given,other wise it doesn't leave my sight,or possession,don't care what they threaten me with,you want my bat,you must be held accountable for it if something happens to it after i give it up. |
| April 18, 2011 stick8 1991 posts | Bubble Gum, LOL If a bat of yours is sent in to be checked and the inside is found to have been shaved it's doubtful you'll be playing much ball anywhere. But I'm pretty certain you'll have a lot more time to ponder how to get those DeMarini's replaced. |
| April 18, 2011 Marv19 Men's 60 498 posts | Guys... These comments and even the string is a moot point with the iCap :O) Have a good one |
| April 18, 2011 Bubble Gum 122 posts | stick8 My bats are legal but the warranty is about to expire. I won't mind them being sent in and with a little luck, cut open. That way I'll be getting new bats with another year of warranty on each one. It would be nice if they keep this rule as I could be getting new bats delivered to me yearly. If they just send them back to me and not replaced then I know they checked them out at their expense, which is fine by me. So it's a gamble that I could be getting a new bat replaced free. If I send a bat in for warranty, I will only get one replacement. But with this rule I can get multiple replacements. This is a great opportunity! Oh, and thanks for letting me know about it!! |
| April 18, 2011 stick8 1991 posts | Titanhd, yes absolutely I understand your concern. Many bats won't pass the test but that doesn't mean they are altered. There's a score that they go by and if a bat tests within a certain range lower than that score then you get the bat back and just can't use it. If it tests way below that range then it's subject to be cut open. I'm sure they will let the player know every step of the way. Last year there was a C players bat that tested way below that range. It was cut open and the inside was completely shaved. He's suspended and trying every legal avenue to get out of it. Have you been able to find that outfielder your looking for? |
| April 18, 2011 stick8 1991 posts | LOL Bubble Gum, your a crack up!! |
| April 18, 2011 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | I like your tongue in cheek, too, Bubble Gum, but it is also a bit scary since I can imagine demented players who would deliberately try to drill a pitcher with a legal bat in order to get a replacement. Never mind if the pitcher never plays again...or dies! |
| April 19, 2011 stick8 1991 posts | Good point Omar. The other poster, bubble gum is simply having a little fun. |
| April 26, 2011 garyaz 40 posts | I heard from good source that over half of the bats in softball are shaved and that many of those can past the compression test. |
| April 26, 2011 Dbax Men's 65 2100 posts | How would anyone know that? Your source is a moron. |
| April 26, 2011 Gary19 Men's 50 2609 posts | So is anyone who would cite such a 'source'. |
| April 26, 2011 garyaz 40 posts | My bad... that was for younger leagues, not senior. |
