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Discussion: Rankings

Posted Discussion
Oct. 31, 2005
short11
8 posts
Rankings
How about Minnesota Masters, a Major team getting dropped down to AAA and then winning. Go figure!
Oct. 31, 2005
theFinalWord
7 posts
Good things happen to great people.
Nov. 1, 2005
scout
3 posts
Mn master had an appeal to be moved down and was accepted on aug 4 therfor they were a AAA team an error was made putting them in the Major div. letter was sign by Terry H.
Nov. 1, 2005
stever
Men's 65
62 posts
Seven different players hit 9 balls out of the park in one game against us. AAA?
Nov. 1, 2005
scout
3 posts
What tournement did the masters hit 9 out ?
Nov. 1, 2005
stonesthrow
3 posts
I play for Diamond Diabetic Products out of FL. I don't know if MN Masters is AAA or Major but they beat us fair & square. First game we came out flat from sitting but the 2nd game was a doozy. I'll tell you, they earned it !! They caught everything !!! Must have been about 10 outstanding plays in the field. 2 bad base-running errors on our part, and the topper was me getting called out at 2nd on a force after the SS knocked down a ball up the middle. That happened in the open inning. OUCH !! Safe by a step.
Congrats to MN Masters.
Nov. 1, 2005
hawk1
Men's 55
4 posts
Hey stonesthrow,

It's the hawkman I have played against you on occasions. Are you and the fellas going to be in Fort Myers next week. I'm coming down to play with the Metro Team from St Louis/Illinois.

Looking forward to seeing you. I used to play with Team Florida, Magnum & Sluggers.

See you there
Nov. 2, 2005
KillAbrew
Men's 60
55 posts
stonesthrow & Hawk.
Were eithert of you with the Fl. team that played in Huntsman against Animals?
We played a great group of guys there and damn good players.
Nov. 2, 2005
hawk1
Men's 55
4 posts
It wasn't me in the Huntsman Tourney,

Nov. 3, 2005
short11
8 posts
It's amazing to me that some teams can send in an appeal and get dropped down JUST before the Worlds and then go on and win the division they are dropped to. Last year it was HMR who played as Frankenstein at Vegas. I play on a team that has been AAA for since their inception. We have won many tournaments but have NO home run hitters, we just out hit everyone. We have since moved up to Major and find it a tough go playing teams that hit 5-10 home rums a game when we hit 2 in seven tournaments this year. I can guarantee you that although their was a three home run limit in Phoenix, Minn. Masters had to have hit at least 30 home runs in their several games. I'm sure all the 55 AAA teams appreciated some Major team dropping down just in time to take the championship hopes away from them. Not to pick on the MN Masters, but as many of you have written, it getting to the time when players should be rated and not teams. Just change your team name and enter the Nationals where you think you're guaranteed to win a ring. I have several rings and just want to be competitive with a chance. I'm tired of playing AA or AAA teams that hit 10 home runs in a game and feel that they shouldn't play against the guys who also hit 10 homers a game
Nov. 4, 2005
JTS2
Men's 55
88 posts
This is not the first time this has happened. It is more of the norm than the exception. As usual tournament directors are more concerned with the bottom dollar than fair play. There are too many senior organizations that are cutthroat against each other and it is getting worse every year. Before long we will have the same problems as open ball. If these tournament directors don't start watching players these problems will only get worse. I know of one player that played for 5 different teams in 5 different world tournaments and made all world at least three times. The tournament directors know him too and do nothing about it. Until you rate players you will continue to have players play in whatever division they want with any team they want.
Nov. 4, 2005
JTS2
Men's 55
88 posts
Each player should have a history that is recorded on some computer program. After every world tournament the players on the winning and second place team would be entered. When a player appeals his history can be brought up and reviewed. All it would take is to spend some of the money we spend for our cards to be used for some programmer to make a program to handle our needs. We need to track the players and teams better than we do now. The only way that will get done is if the summitt cooperates (ha ha )
Nov. 8, 2005
scout
3 posts
the mn masters hit maybe 7 home runs in 12 games i dont believe how people talk out of contents without knowing the stats.the masters have never laid down to get rerank always played hard if thats wrong then why play they are a good aaa team with players that play hard but no major + players picked up they played with the same players all year long and 60+ players added (2)wow
Nov. 9, 2005
stever
Men's 65
62 posts
All I said was they hit 9 OUT against us...3 were home runs, 4 were singles, 2 were foul over the fence. They are a great bunch of guys and I enjoy playing against them; but, they definitely have more power than most AAA teams.
Nov. 9, 2005
Ken
Men's 55
462 posts
Scout,

Now that youíve won at AAA you will be moved up to Major. Are you going to petition again to be moved back to AAA?
Nov. 10, 2005
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2665 posts
You're right Ken, thats what the rules say. However, there are ways to get around it, change the team's name or add/lose players for instance. Associations must watch for that.
Nov. 10, 2005
bucky
Men's 50
13 posts
BruceinGA: How many times have we heard that story?? There are people out there that do this type of thing almost every year to stay down a level. How many times have you heard that an Association has not let this happen??
It time for all Associations to stand up and do the right thing by cracking down on these people that PLAY the system.
After all, this is a senior sport, and if we do not play fair the people will stop comming even if they build it. Playing fair is more important than the almighty buck and most of these so called world rings.
BUCKY
Nov. 10, 2005
JTS2
Men's 55
88 posts
You can gripe and complain all you want on the chat board but if you are serious about changes you need to wite the heads of the associations and let them know your opinion and also give them some solutions to the problems. It's the same problem of tournament directors not keeping up with players and teams. Let's face there are only a small number of senior competitive teams out there so keeping track should be easy. Use the coaches of the teams to help police the rosters. Make rosters available online before every world or national tournament and if there are illegal players or teams the coaches from the other teams will let you know.
Nov. 10, 2005
SteveSimmons
66 posts
This is a test.
Nov. 10, 2005
MikeC
Men's 60
38 posts
I think Steve Simmons plays for the MN Maters and puts on a qualifer for SSWC. Maybe that had something to do with it
Nov. 10, 2005
SteveSimmons
66 posts
Here are the MN Masters individual statistics from their championship win at the 2005 SSWC 55AAA tournament in Phoenix, AZ.

Randy Simonson, 702 BA, 0 HR
Lon Stole, 681 BA, 0 HR
Don Klatt, 676 BA, 3 HR
Tony Wilfahrt, 675 BA, 0 HR
Daryl Cooper, 640 BA, 1 HR
Dave Weber, 632 BA, 0 HR
Larry Nelson, 625 BA, 2 HR
Gene Thompson, 600 BA, 0 HR
Tom Walsh, 590 BA, 1 HR (inside-the-park)
Tony Udean, 585 BA, 0 HR
Chuck Raab, 535 BA, 1 HR
Jerry Stiele, 382 BA, 1 HR (inside-the-park)
Garry Russell, 364 BA, 0 HR
Tom Engfer, --- BA, 0 HR
Jerry Otto, --- BA, 0 HR

The MN Masters won this tournament by combining solid, balanced and timely hitting with outstanding team defense. The MN Masters hit 609 as a team and averaged 18.0 runs per game while allowing 13.7 runs per game. They hit just seven "over-the-fence" home runs in twelve games.

The MN Masters were three outs from elimination on Sunday morning when, after losing by a resounding 17 runs to Russell Real Estate (CA), they found themselves down 11-8 in the bottom of the seventh to Master Collision (CO) in the very next game. They managed to score four to eke out a one run victory.

The MN Masters played six consecutive games, having to win the last five in a row, to gain the championship on Sunday. The championship game was truly that, a "toe-to-toe" tilt between two teams refusing to give in to the other. It took the MN Masters' best offensive output of the entire tournament and another bottom of the seventh rally to edge an excellent Diamond Diabetics (FL) team by a 27-26 score.

The MN Masters have earned their way into the 55 Major division and gratefully accept the challenge of playing at that level in 2006. There will be no appeal, name change or subterfuge, the MN Masters adhere to the rules of senior softball and abide by the decisions of the national senior softball ratings committee.
Nov. 10, 2005
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
401 posts
Nice Stats. I assume those Stats are for the entire tournament and not the final game.

I think SSUSA does a pretty decent job of the ratings for the most part and that canít be easy given the number of teams that come and go. Our team played AAA in Phoenix during the 2005 50 worlds and watched some of the games in the majors division elimination round after we got knocked out early in the AAA. From what I seen it looked to me like most of the teams, including ours, playing AAA could play in the major division and not look out of place.
Nov. 10, 2005
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
One thing to keep in mind when doing stats on seniors and trying to correlate a level of play is the fact that the limit on runs per inning artiificially inflates batting averages. Ask how many innings ended when the 5th run scored and 3 outs were not recorded. I don't know this team but seems reasonable for how they are rated.
Nov. 10, 2005
SteveSimmons
66 posts
Enviro-vac - The statistics listed take into account all games played over the four days of the tournament. That includes four pool play games and eight bracket games.

Lecak - You sound like a stat-man yourself. You have made an excellent observation. Whenever a team plays in a tournament where there is an inning run rule, and fairly consistently reaches the inning max, the team's batting average will be considerably higher than if the inning were played out to its three outs.
Nov. 10, 2005
JTS2
Men's 55
88 posts
I don't know the Minn. Masters or their situation but they were at major for some reason and were moved down to AAA right before the world and they won it. That doesn't look good when that happens and it happens quite often. I don't blame the players or coaches they areonly human and greedy. The main problem are tournament directors that don't follow their own rules.
Nov. 10, 2005
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Stat-man not that fond of stats but when we our looking at someone and a stat is thrown at us we discount anything coming out of a limited runs per inning tournament. Can work the other way also where your are artificially kept close to a team who would run it up without the limitiation. You can fool yourself into not improving your team. We feel it is wise as a team to move up occasionally and test the waters and see where we land against a higher lever of competition.
Nov. 10, 2005
Ken
Men's 55
462 posts
Iím sure the Mn. Masters are a great bunch of guys and played very well in Phoenix. Coming out of the losers bracket to win is not an easy thing to do. I know their whole team had to play well to accomplish what they did. Having said that, I think that a team should not be allowed in the Worlds or Nationals if they have not played with their roster in AT LEAST 3 qualifiers for that specific classification. If any players are added they should be from an upper age bracket in the same classification or lower. No one should be allowed to enter a world or national tournament at the last second after playing in an upper bracket all year.

I agree with Enviro-Vac that many AAA teams can compete in Major, but they probably wouldnít win any tournaments. I guess thatís why you just take your lumps and try to improve for next year. Some times you will win and often the other guys will win. If the only reason that you play in these tournaments is to win a ring you are missing the point. Iím not saying that the Mn. Masters had these intentions, but they were in the Major division all year for a reason. The time to re-evaluate their status wasnít just before the Worlds. They should have played major this year and petitioned to be moved down next year.
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