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Discussion: xReno 2011 50, 55s

Posted Discussion
May 31, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
xReno 2011 50, 55s
Tournament was run very well and officiated very well.
Fran, Dave, Corkey, the beautiful woman who sells the rings
et al were in typically gracious, interested and responsive modes despite the horrific weather Saturday and Sunday.
Effectively, given wind chill and dampness,
the coldest I've ever experienced since playing senior ball.

Congratulations to the Northwest Legends, Junior and the rest
in 50 major plus 50's
for ushering in a new era
by beating 3 times and being the better team than, Somerville, alias the vaunted Mavericks.
They had the best team on the field in the tournament
and it showed.
Way to go.

We, Barons 50 major, went 3 and 2 in a very competitive
9 team bracket eventually won by Rapid Erectors
whom we watched but never faced.
Way to go Barry.

ODB won the 55 AAA.
Way to go G, Sam, Eddie, Melvin, Ronnie and the rest.
Well deserved as I heard you had to double dip
a very good team from the midwest.

No Dog like an Old Dawg I always say
and congrats to Brian, Garth, Reggie and Steve Owens
for winning 55 Major in convincing fashion.

Congrats to the Nighthawks, Don, Billy, Dave, Charles
and the rest for their dominating performance in 55 major plus.
They look like the best team 55 team in the country to me.


Lastly for now.
I happened upon the first championship of Sommerville vs
Northwest Legends to see one of their pitchers
in a predominantly U-trip character and clearly in violation
of SSUSA code for pitcher conduct.
It shocked me being so obvious yet it wasn't being enforced
by either the umpire.
I was told there was a context to the behavior that
was marked and effective and needed to be judged accordingly.
But let me say this as plainly as I can.

I'm a pitcher and have to know and demonstrate
the the difference between
legal and illegal pitching behavior on the mound
and letting someone get away with the obvious flouting of the rules that I witnessed over and over again
is unacceptable across the board for a millions reasons.
Nothing unfair happened to alter the course of events
of their contest because Northwest was clearly the better
team through the entire weekend and demonstrated it clearly.
But allowing one team an unfair advantage over another
is never a good thing in a fair contest.
U-trip and ASA are to completely different styles of pitching
and must be kept so.
May 31, 2011
Tim Millette
465 posts
Joe, I watched Donny Long pitching for the legends in the Longhorn game.

I had heard alot of talk about how Donny was pitching illegally.

During the game I watched I saw NOTHING illegal about his pitching style.

He set his feet (sometimes the front foot was his pivot foot, sometimes his back foot) changed angles, wind up speed, pitched short and deep BUT, I did not see what you are talking about..... He did sneak a few strikes by guys that stand in the box and assume the pitcher is goIng to politely wait for them.... Which I don't think is illegal.

Donny in no way was pitching usssa style.... There was never a pump fake! Which IMHO is the main pitch delivery diffence between senior ball and utrip.

What I saw watching Don pitch was..... How a top pitcher can be effective under the very restricted senior rules.

In a game using senior bats, where we have to stop inning after five runs because it's so easy to hit, I would think we all would welcome methods to help reducing the senior bat advantage.

Larry from the mavericks is a great utrip pitcher...... If he was out done by Donny in pushing the envelope of the senior pitching rules I'd be very surprised.
May 31, 2011
Fastsam
Men's 50
54 posts
Thanks Joe, It took a total team effort to win this one. Snow sleet 30 and below Temps 12 players and Rick going 30 - 33. First ring for ODB. Great job by Gerald putting us in a postion to win. Special thanks to our 60+ players Steve Joe D. David Lee and our pitcher Feliez. Couldn't have done it without them.
May 31, 2011
Barry50
Men's 50
15 posts
Joe Thanks, it is always great to see you and the other teams in Reno. Tim nice to see you again, and playing against you is always a pleasure. Rapid Erectors had
some very good games and were lucky enough to come out on
top this weekend. The teams are getting better and the competiton is always great. Good Luck the rest of the year and we will see you Phoenix.
May 31, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Just so everybody knows what we already know,
Tim, I think the world of you and you're as a great a guy as you are a hitter
and that's saying a ton.
And I couldn't disagree with you more.

The pitcher was going back and forth
over the line
on continuous motion, quick pitch, maintaining
pivot foot on the rubber and he knew what he was doing and he was MASTERFUL at it.
By the way, he's a great hitter, too.
And they did have a better team than Sommerville
and deserved to win that tournament
as I said before.
They beat them 3 times.

First of all, the character of U-trip pitching
is deception.
SS-USA's is NOT to deceive
or intentionally distract the batter.
It's not only out of character
it's unlawful for "any fielder to intentionally
distract the batter".

I saw a run of his pitching
in the first championship game against Sommerville
where he was doing multiple things illegally
and with the intention to distract the batter.
He wouldn't be doing any of it if I was the umpire.
Now, there's a scary thought for some.
Einstein the umpire.
"To some a dream;
to others a nightmare."

Lastly, most of the hitters I know,
like you, Timmy,
will take it personally when a pitcher
tries to mess with them
and hit even harder/better.

Timmy.
See you in Pleasanton, June 18, 19th?



May 31, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Afterword.
Hall of Famer, Gaylord Perry,
said his effectiveness was augmented
by the thinking and belief others had
that he was throwing a spit ball.
It makes the batters more concerned about the pitcher than about hitting
pulling them out of their "heads".
So, we have done for Donny is to make him
even more effective/distracting than he was
by making him even more controversial
and he's probably loving every minute of it.
I would be, too.

Donny, you're a very, very good player
and it's NOT your job to police yourself.
The responsibility really lies with the umpire/tournament director
to make it clear what's acceptable and what isn't and enforce it.
May 31, 2011
leftyodoul
Men's 60
95 posts
Donny wasn't doing anything different than what he has been doing for years. The head of the umpires was there at the complex and watched Donny pitch. He did not direct the umpires working the games to make Donny change his delivery. If his pitching got in to the Maverick's head more power to him. Bottom line - it is still a hitter's game. The ball must be delivered in a range from 6 to 12 foot. If you can't hit a ball delivered by a slowpitch pitcher then you better move to a sport where you can place the ball on a tee.
May 31, 2011
leftyodoul
Men's 60
95 posts
Donny wasn't doing anything different than what he has been doing for years. The head of the umpires was there at the complex and watched Donny pitch. He did not direct the umpires working the games to make Donny change his delivery. If his pitching got in to the Maverick's head more power to him. Bottom line - it is still a hitter's game. The ball must be delivered in a range from 6 to 12 foot. If you can't hit a ball delivered by a slowpitch pitcher then you better move to a sport where you can place the ball on a tee.
May 31, 2011
FOFO
Men's 50
160 posts
I would Like to offer my congratulations to Rapid erectors on their win. Great team and great bunch of guys, who by the way I'm tired of losing too.
Maybe next time......................
Bert
#24 Spot Bar & Grill
June 1, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Bert,
We had 2 good games with you guys.
You have a hell of a good team and Ricky Bass
is one of the monster hitters of senior ball,
always lethal and dangerous at the plate.
He's lucky I wasn't pitching.
I was gonna "knock him down" a couple of times
to keep him from digging in.
You guys knocked out us and our homies
the MTC 50's in the latter part of double elim.
Good job.
Coming to any of our California events this year?
June 1, 2011
Tim Millette
465 posts
Maybe we can start pitching to our own team?

That way we don't have to worry about the pitcher illegally trying to deceive the hitters by curving the ball one way or another or by throwing a knuckle ball.

It would also eliminate the pitchers ability to destract the hitter by changing pace.....

We have all seen how effective changing delivery pace has been.....

I am sure we have all seen many batters swing and miss because a cheating pitcher changed his delivery speed.....

Don't we as players understand safety is the number one priority....and lord knows.....one of the pitched balls could actually injure the batter if he if deceived so much the pitch hits him.

Ya..... I think we should pitch to our own team....Lol

Joe I'm with ya..... I think your progressive mindset has influences you on this one.... Next i think we gotta go after not allowing bottled water into the park?

Ok....that last one was just for fun.... Maybe we should go after the styrafoam cups first
June 1, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Timmy, you're a monster and the truth is out now
how a great a guy you are to match the world class hitter you've always been.
We both agree more can and should be done
to give the pitcher more advantage as well as protection with our good equipment and the adjustments as I have always said can be done
easily and effortlessly by changing pitcher standards.
My point, T was that it's got to be even/fair
to keep the true contest intact.
Deception or lack of deception or both OK with me.
It just needs to be the same for both.

I think the older elements of senior ball
as you pointed out to me on the phone
don't like and wouldn't approve of moving to
more deception but other things can be done
with arc, length/width of the pitching rubber
and 1-1 count which would help give the pitchers
more to work with.
You're the best of us Timmy
and should be listened to regarding any adjustments
senior ball should be considering.
See you with Renegades in a couple of weeks.
The cat's out of their bag as
their ranked up there now with the big boys
in NorCal.
June 1, 2011
Donny C
54 posts
Tim Millette: I was wondering if you are the same Tim M. that I played with in Escanaba, MI some years back. If so glad to see you are still hitting the ball. Donny C.
June 1, 2011
FOFO
Men's 50
160 posts
Hey Joe.
We did have two good ones. You guys hit the ball real well and we played one of our best games to beat you. What position were you playing?
As for Ricky, he is a good hitter, but I may have enjoyed watching you knock him down a couple of times.
I would like to come to a couple of California events as I live in Vegas and it's an easy drive but not sure the Oregon guys are up for it. Who runs them? If they are not SSUSA maybe I can pick up with someone.
I know we are playing in Lacy WA., Sacramento and Phoenix.
Great tournament, maybe next time it will be warmer.
Bert
June 1, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I was playing or rather trying to play
3rd base then moved to second when my shortstop
pulled a quad.
Ricky's got a good heart.
It's OK to be full of yourself when you can play/hit like he can.
He's a gamer and hit well despite the swelling
problem he had with his hands.
That says a lot.
Hope to see you in Phoenix.
When/where do you play in Sacramento?
June 1, 2011
FOFO
Men's 50
160 posts
Yes he does and he's the reason I'm on the team. The hands were a mess but he sucked it up and played well in spite of the pain.
I guess it's actually Yolo County in July that I'm referring too and we will be seeing you in Phoenix. That's always a great tournament.
June 3, 2011
thndr1
Men's 50
29 posts
Joe (Einstein) and all in Reno, what a tournament that was. I told all our guys on the Southwest Legends that this was the best balanced tournament as far as competition goes that we have seen in some time. I wish we could have played better but we didn't come prepared to play on Monday when things had finally cleared up. MTC outplayed us at every turn and we just couldn't come up with the answer for them.

Joe played a hell of a third base against us coming up with every ball hit near him except one that I don't think any thirdbaseman would have gotten.

As usual, Barry and the Erectors had our number again. Like Bert said, "we're tired of losing to you guys." We kept it close to the very end but wound up falling again. One of these days...

Even with the weather being what it was, we had a great trip and I personally met some great guys up there that I hadn't met previously. We are looking forward to the LVSSA event in Vegas and Phoenix for sure. We are looking into a couple of others also but we haven't decided where yet.

Cliff H. #9
Southwest Legends

June 3, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Cliff.
You got one of my good friends and terrific hitters
in Joe Lecak with you.
I thought you guys had the best hitting line up
of anyone we faced and we were lucky to get by you.
I also got the good natured looseness you guy play with and made it fun.
You could have won that game easily
and I was worried right to the end.
We're working on going to LVSSA right now
and hope to see you at another event soon.
June 3, 2011
thndr1
Men's 50
29 posts
Thanks Joe for the kind words about our team. One of the things that make playing ball with these guys so much fun is our chemistry. Considering 7 guys come from Utah (most up by Salt Lake City) and the other 8 come from Vegas, we weren't sure how things would go but it has been great.

Joe Lecak is one of the reasons this team is together. Considering that he almost left softball for awhile we are very lucky that he is with us and helping to keep us competitive. His knowledge and skills are secondary to the fact that he is a good man allaround. I'm lucky to call him a friend.

I hope we do see you guys in Vegas for the LVSSA event. It was pretty good last year and it makes a nice tuneup for Phoenix.

Our biggest surprise out of Reno??? We waited until the weather finally cleared up before we came out flat in a game. Can you believe that?...lol

Cliff H. #9
Southwest Legends
June 3, 2011
FOFO
Men's 50
160 posts
Cliff,
You are right about Reno. Competition as best I've seen all year and to think 4 of the best teams on the west coast, Fan Grabbers, Arizona Elite, West Coast and Tucson Bandits didn't attend. I'm sure I left a few more out. 50 Major is a very tough division this year.
It is funny that you waited until the only nice day to come out flat. I was hoping we would play you guys. You guys have a good team and made a nice run.
When is LVSSA? I have to find someone to play with as I don't believe The Spot is attending.
June 3, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
September 30, Oct 1 and 2 for the 50's and 60's.
June 3, 2011
SSUMP18
3 posts
Joe
Just to add a comment here. I was the plate umpire in 3 of your games as well as the champ. and IF game you were talking about. I know you were questioning my calling of supposed "illegal" pitches in the "IF" game from the stands but in my judgement the pitcher was legal by SSUSA rules. Both Dave and Ray asked me to watch BOTH pitchers because of problems occuring the day before. They are both very good pitchers and we had two great games. Dave and Fran watched both games as you know. Too bad it will be remembered on here differently.
June 3, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You did 2 of our games, too and I thought you did a terrific job at all times.
I believe the Legends were a better team
and demonstrated it by beating Sommerville
3 times during the weekend irrespective
of any other condition.

Interpreting illegal pitches is a very specific thing that's may require the intimacy
that only a pitcher possesses.
I wouldn't have a clue about illegal or legal
before I became a pitcher a couple of years ago.

However,
the intention to deceive or "distract" a batter
is part of the written and unwritten rules
of ASA/ISA or Senior pitching a al NCSSA.
The rules are also clear about quick pitching,
continuous motion and maintaining contact with the pitching rubber once any pitcher has started his motion.
I saw many violations of the rules as "I" understand them while I was watching
in game one of the championship game.
There were much less in the final game.

Again, I thought you and all the other umps
did a terrific job and I said so earlier.

It's possible a symposium of/by pitchers
might be necessary to help settle the larger issue of what is allowable pitcher behavior
given current guidelines or if the guidelines
should be changed.

June 3, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Dave and Fran.
There is a larger issue here that I do believe
needs be dealt with.
If you allow masterful pitchers like Donny
to cross over the line of what is legal or acceptable pitcher behavior than the rest of us are/will be coming over that line right now
with more responsibility/difficulty
on your part to interpret and define
what's legal and what isn't.

For me, the rule that no fielder
shall intentionally distract a batter
defines the not only the theme but the way
to interpret present pitcher behavior.
Basically, if any umpire has difficulty determining illegality or senses the intent
to distract
then that should be an "illegal" pitch.

Otherwise, open up the rules a la USSSA
and let the pitchers dominate and have some fun.


June 3, 2011
SSUMP18
3 posts
Thanks Joe for the compliments and again, I did not see any attempt to deceive. They are 2 very good pitchers and when Donny did quick pitch I called it. I would much rather umpire those games than 30-3 games anyday. Hope to see you soon.
June 3, 2011
leftyodoul
Men's 60
95 posts
Given that this is a hitters game, as a pitcher I will try to push the envelope any time that I can. I will test the arc, test the speed, attempt to quick pitch, pitch from beyond the allowable distance. I will do anything that I can to turn the odds in my favor. Even then, the hitters still have the advantage.
June 3, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I agree you can push the envelope whenever you want when you are pitching but
just as the umpire needs to call a 13 foot ball
illegal he needs to bring the pitcher back
to the within the acceptable standards.

I think we have a huge issue here, Steve.
Umps and TD's are going to have to become
intimate with the rules, their character
and delivery regarding pitchers
and pitching.
I don't see any way around it now that real controversy exists and clarification needs
to come.

I like to throw a ball side-arm sometimes
and some umps don't call it.
If they don't call it
I do it again.
Donny is right to get away with whatever
the umps let him do under the normal code of playing softball.
Yet, some pitchers know the "character" of the rule and won't even go there.
If SSUSA policy is to let Donny go back and across over the line of legality then
we will all be pushing the limits and
doing it right now.
And if you didn't call it on Donny
you better not be calling it on me or anyone else.


June 3, 2011
Omar Khayyam
958 posts
einstein’s point is a good one that we need clarification on some possible pitching scenarios, or even clarification on what “intentionally distracting a batter” consists of.

Ten years ago, my team was in an important game with the tournament title at stake. The score was close, two guys on base, two outs, and I was pitching and had two strikes on the batter. I threw a pitch I used to throw when I was playing fast-pitch—a full windmill knuckle ball, albeit this time with about an 8 foot arc. The pitch landed on the plate without the player even trying to take a cut at it. Strike three, inning over? Nope, the umpire called it “illegal”.

I went to protest, and began my protest by stating that I had started the pitch in front of my body and it had only passed my hip once. I could see that the ump thought I had passed my hip twice, so he blinked, and then said I was attempting to distract the batter! The batter hit the next pitch for a single, and we eventually lost the game (and tournament).

The irony was that the opposing pitcher was known for his distracting motions: holding the ball over his head, rocking back and forth, following through in different exaggerated ways, stepping out, not stepping at all, stepping back after delivery, etc. His whole game was distracting the batter since he never threw a curve or knuckler or any other unusual motion, and seldom varied his pitch height, just depended on his gymnastics on the rubber.

I later learned to warn an ump about the legal pitch I might throw, but I soon stopped using the pitch because of the unpredictable umpire response. Was I guilty of “intentionally distracting the batter” and if so, should it be illegal?
June 4, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1931 posts
Great discussion. And Kudos to both pitchers for pushing the envelope. 98% of pitchers don't even try anything out of the ordinary. If there is such a debate over their pitching, they have accomplished their goal of getting the batters mind off of hitting and on to what they are doing. There are so few things a pitcher can do legally. The ball still has to travel 50 plus feet with an arc to a rectangle mat/plate area. Very limited. Joe, if I was pitching and you were complaining, I would know I've got you! You may still hit me hard, but I've done everything I can to tip the scales. As a batter, I get ready for the next pitch immediately-before the pitcher has a opportunity to set up for a quick pitch. I rarely see or hear anything after the ball is delivered until I hit it. The only thing I have ever reacted to was once, in the Texas State Championships in the 80's, a pitcher released the ball and ran straight at me. I hit one right past his ear, called time after I got to first, and warned him in a loud voice that the umps could hear, that if he did it again, I would put it down his throat. He didn't do it again. If is isn't blatant-let 'em pitch.
June 4, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
These are the kind of discussions we need to have,
Dave, even encourage to raise and settle issues
before they have to get settled contentiously
as the did on the field in Reno.
The must fundamental point is the character of any delivery or pitch.
Attempt to deceive/distract or not.
The way we play/understand in NCSSA and SSUSA, LVSSA to date is there should be no active intention to distract.
Donnie lives to distract batters.
That's number one.
Then, umps and TD's need to become intimate
with the rules and teaching them to umps
on the spot because guys pitchers will become masterful quickly blurring and going over the lines
as we saw in Reno.

It's very simple.
If you declare the pitcher can/should distract
than we should go to full on USSSA to avoid
huge controversy during games.
If not, then anything that seems distracting
is and would constitute an illegal pitch
whether technically illegal or not.

Either of these would be relatively easy to enforce.

Another notion as per Webbie's comment is that
batters become so upset when a pitcher tries to "F" with them they shoot the ball back through the box which is also illegal and can decrease
pitcher protection afforded pitchers now
because they're in a less 'distracting' and confrontational mode.

Important issues to discuss and define going forward as has already been demonstrated.
June 4, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Another if not "the" way to handle a pitcher
who is too distracting is step out and call time.
You can do that any time you need/want
and that will stop most any pitchers, antic
or in Donny's case slow him down to a crawl.

The minute he gets set I would call time.
Then again when he catches the ball.
Then again when he sets his feet.
Two can play that game, too.
Especially if you have a lead
you can slow the game down to 3 or 4 innings
then the pitcher's teammates will get on him for being too slow.
Lot's a ways to skin a cat.

My preference is no distraction because it takes away from the natural drama of man vs man
in the sunlight at high noon.
Dun dun dun duhhhhhhn.
But the younger guys like Tim Millette
like the faking and juking and are more used to it.

Good we're talking about it moving toward some clarification.
I don't see it changing in NorCal from less distracting to more
especially with the increased vulnerability of a pitcher getting roasted by an incensed big-boy
batter.
June 4, 2011
leftyodoul
Men's 60
95 posts
If I were the UIC I would conduct Regional clinics for my umpires and make it mandatory that they attend. I would have practical demonstrations showing what is considered a legal pitch and what is illegal. I would also invite team Reps. to attend. Hopefully, that would put everyone on the same page.
June 4, 2011
leftyodoul
Men's 60
95 posts
If I were the UIC I would conduct Regional clinics for my umpires and make it mandatory that they attend. I would have practical demonstrations showing what is considered a legal pitch and what is illegal. I would also invite team Reps. to attend. Hopefully, that would put everyone on the same page.
June 4, 2011
Omar Khayyam
958 posts
einstein, I'm sure you know that it is not the batter's prerogative to determine "time." It is a request to the umpire for a time out. Usually the umpire will grant it (batter not set, sudden whirlwind blowing dirt in one's eyes, sunglasses falling off, batter gets spasm in back, etc.), but if the batter starts messing with the pitcher as in your scenario, the ump might ignore the request, the pitch is on the way, and now the batter is REALLY not ready! Like your creativity, but not likely to work in real play. An approach I like is leftyodoul's in having umps instructed on what the association deems the difference between a legal and illegal pitch.
June 4, 2011
Tim Millette
465 posts
a few questions for Joe..

Just so we can understand where your comming from...

1) Is it illegal for a pitcher to pitch from different angles to "decieve" a batter?

2) Is it illegal for a pitcher to change pitch types (curves, knuckle ball, back spin) to "decieve" a batter?

3) Is it illegal for a pitcher to pitch from difference distances to "decieve" a batter?

4) Is it illegal for a pitcher to change his pitch speed to "decieve" a batter?

5) Is it illegal for a pitcher to change his delivery speed to "decieve" a batter?

6) Is it illegal for a pitcher to use his left and right foot as his pivot foot to "decieve" a batter?

EVERY ONE OF THESE 6 questions MUST be handled in the exact same manner.

Since they are all done to "decieve" the batter..They are either ALL illegal or ALL legal.

So, whcih way do you think they all should be called Joe?

Now.....the Distraction issue....I believe pitcher distraction must be blatent to be called...waving hands, running at batter, shouting, are a few of the examples
June 4, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Changing and deceiving/distracting are 2 different things, Tim in my head
and I would answer no to all of your questions.
There is a marked difference to me
between what Donny was doing and all the questions you asked.
He was deliberately trying to get the batters attention on what he was doing rather than throwing.
And Tim, I don't care if they decide
that all of it is legal.
It just needs to be fair for both/all
and expect all kinds of junk from me
next time I pitch.

I think you should advocate for USSSA rules
being implemented in senior ball
so pitchers could do whatever they wanted
but that's not the character of how we have been playing or a lot of us think should be done.

We definitely need clarification thanks to the pioneer that Donny has been and the contentious
controversy that was produced in Reno.
This is a sign of things to come
if SSUSA and other associations don't become
proactive in helping us deal with it.
Plus, pitchers will get drilled for trying
to 'mess' with batters which we've been trying
to discourage for some years now.

June 4, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
The batter legitimately has a right to call time
if something has distracted him while at the plate, especially if that something could be perceived as illegal by the pitcher.
And time out is to be granted by the umpire
as long as it is asked for by any player
last time I looked at the SSUSA rule book.
It is not subject to interpretation.
The player could always be thrown out of the game
for unsportsmanlike conduct.
June 4, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
What we need Tim is clarification
so we all know what to expect.
Again, I would enforce the "no fielder shall intentionally distract the batter" sentence in the rule book and bring the game back to the way
we're used to playing and almost always play.
June 4, 2011
VegasCoyote
5 posts
Where can you find the results of tourneys, on line? Had a great time in Reno and also played our worst on Monday, the nice day! Coyotes 55+
June 4, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Tim.
Upon further thought it comes to me
that rules for their own sake mean nothing.
It's the meaning or intent of the rule
that is key.
It's obvious the reason for the rules
in the SSUSA rule book just like in NCSSA
and LVSSA is "not" to distract or deceive.
The rules are just guidelines to execute
the meaning and that is, not to distract/deceive.

USSSA on the other hand is made for guys
to deceive and "be creative/masterful like Donny and lots of other UTRIP guys I've seen pitch.
Reedus is a monster at it.
So is Rick Cades and the old Master,
A.C. Linde.

What we're seeing is guys who pitch in USSSA
coming over to pitch in Senior Ball.
For me, the line needs to be drawn to keep them separate and that would be by enforcing
the "no fielder shall intentionally distract
any batter" meaning for all pitcher behavior.


June 4, 2011
FOFO
Men's 50
160 posts
It sounds like no one is quite sure what is legal. I pitched the first two games for The Spot Bar and used some of the pitches described above, pivoting with both feet, windmill without passing hip twice etc. The other teams complained but the umpire did not nor did I consider them illegal pitches although I don't think either of us was sure.
All I know is I'll do whatever I can to get a guy to miss a ball.
I have not read any pitching rules for SSUSA but I thought they were similar to NSA which I ump. Seems to me the this should all ne part of the managers meeting before the tournament so everyone is clear and certainly shouldn't be part of a championship game.
Where might one read the rules?
June 4, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
On the SSUSA website on one of the menus, Bert.
I think the character of pitching
is what is essential.
The rules support a non-distracting, non-deceiving
foundation for delivery.
You're completely right--
This needs to be discussed and defined
before another tournament occurs.
June 4, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Let's take jay walking
which I got a ticket for some years back
in Seattle.
I could have run instead of walked and made the argument that the rules say nothing about running.
That's the same thing I hear being argued by Tim and Donny and you.
It's the character of the pitcher and it's fundamental stance that is the key
to/for all of this and only when that is
addressed will we be able to put this to rest.
Either USSSA style or ASA style.
They are two fundamentally different approaches
to pitching and we need to go with one
or the other.

And remember, player safety is directly involved
in this where as if we allow pitchers to "F" with batters, balls will be rocketing through the middle which we are all trying to avoid.

June 4, 2011
FOFO
Men's 50
160 posts
Joe,
I agree and this isn't USSSA, but we all get away with whatever we can.
Not sure if Fing with batters contributed but I did end up with a broken finger in the second game............
June 4, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Tim.
There's a tacit agreement between pitchers and batters that needs to be recognized and respected.
If pitchers don't mess with batters
then batters stay off the pitcher.
When pitchers get "cute" or too aggressive
or distracting than batters tend to say
all bets are off about protecting them.
I think we should recognize and go WITH this
as it helps keep hot balls off pitchers
as we are GENUINELY concerned about
protecting them unlike some proponents of the "kindler, gentler ball" who are in it
for themselves.
June 4, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Bert it's very possible that's why
you got drilled.
June 5, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1931 posts
When did we lose the right to engage in gamesmanship? It sounds like the umpires were aware that there were questions and watched closely and decided that his 'style' was legal. Joe, you already are the number one proponent of the hot bat/hot ball combo. Now you want them to stand there like a statue and feed you fat pitches? Or, in a rage, you will drill the ball back at the pitcher? I understand your liking the bat/ball combo so passionately, but why the vitriol over a pitcher doing his best to get a few hitters off stride in the course of a game by 'pushing the envelope'?
June 5, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Mark.
I've said it all and there was a HUGE controversy and contention that took place between 2 teams
neither of which I played for.
I recognize and can tell this is a HUGE issue that needs to be dealt with.
Mark my words (no pun intended).


June 5, 2011
VegasCoyote
5 posts
You fellas have quite a gift for pontification. Yeah, I remember that time in Seattle when that lousy pitcher squiggled and squirmed and stood way over to the right side of the rubber and reared back and let fly an almost unhittable 15 m.p.h heater. The ball was so far inside that it took everything I had not to charge the mound. I was not able to regroup and promptly k'd when he threw me that 12 m.p.h. off speeder. Something must be done!
June 5, 2011
FOFO
Men's 50
160 posts
Joe,
Knowing the guy that hit it I'd have to say no. It was my inability to catch the damn ball in the pocket that got me.
Coyote, I hope you bought the team beer............
June 5, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Bert.
There was a HUGE situation generated in Reno
about pitching and standards that has not been
resolved and needs to,
which I walked in on, that needs to be clarified.
I like pitching standards as they have been.
Yet, I would go to any standards as long as they're clear and enforced uniformly.
Now, there is neither.
June 5, 2011
VegasCoyote
5 posts
Clue in the rest of us. What was the HUGE situation, in Reno?
June 6, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
dang i love all this whining about a pitcher throwing a ball at 15-25 mph max,underhand to a batter who has a missile launcher in his hands.it is already a hitters game,why cry about a pitcher can throw all kinds of pitches with different angles and speeds,get in the dang box and hit,quit crying.oh you already know where the dang pitch has to come into as we have a mat that it has to hit on.........
June 6, 2011
Mr. Manassas
223 posts
OOOHHH....I can not tell you how upset it makes me to have someone tell me that if I just throw the ball so that the hitter can pound it I won't get hurt!!!!!! I thought that softball is a competitive game and the purpose was to beat the other team.(It kind of makes the game fun for everyone!!)My comment to anyone who wants to hurt someone is that you are ....................Just fill in the blank!!!!
June 6, 2011
Mr. Manassas
223 posts
Answers to the above fillin the blank:Jackass, coward, turd, etc.
June 6, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
The ususual suspect and non-spects have appeared.
Must be a slow day at the park
watching little boys and girls play.

It has to do with fairness and clarity
issues which to some are distant and unfathomable.

It hinges on whether a pitcher is intentionally
distracting a batter which is against SSUSA rules
and the character of senior pitching to date
and it does change the character of the game
and will shorten it as well as endanger
pitchers via retaliation.

I'm sorry these concepts are hard for Robert
and some of his dimmer colleagues to track
and understand but the most of us get
what's going on and realize we are at a meaningful juncture and need clarification.
I can't wait to the next SSUSA event
to see how it all pans out.

To make is simple for those who are intelligence
challenged
it all hinges on whether a pitcher has the right
to distract a batter which is presently
and literally against the rules and character
of how we're used to playing.
June 6, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
And for the record Dave,
disparaging comments and name calling
have begun at the hands of an anonymous
entrant who doesn't have what it takes
to stand up and in like a man.
It's the same one or two cowards
who are using all the aliases available to them
to sport with us and that IS against SSUSA
guidelines, character and rules.

June 6, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Part of the backdrop for all this stuff
and I'm directing this to the general community and not the few gutless, non-tagonists.
is that little is known about softball pitching pitchers, what their capable of and how they do what they do.
I been threatening to do a video on pitching
and maybe it's high time to get one out and going.
Would be fun, informative, timely
and "revolutionary" for some.
A very good pitcher can control a whole line up
and game with good defense, all by himself.
I've seen it from both sides of the plate
and if you don't think so
you need to send me ten bucks and I'll explain
it all to you or at least try...


June 6, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
realy love that answer,you can't hit a ball being less than 20 mph and we are gutless cowards,mmmm who is name calling......
June 6, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Steiner, what have you accomplished playing this game that would make you the softball genius you've already made yourself out to be? You talk down to everyone here on this board. You in so many words have indicated that if a pitcher attempts to distract you, you'll go middle hard! Am I the only person who feels this is what Joe is indicating? Your probably a good person, but reading how you talk down to people or indicating your word is gospel, tends to have folks not wanting to listen to some of the good points you've made. JMO
June 6, 2011
Tim Millette
465 posts
How about the simple explanation of....

***Deception is part of pitching. As as long as the pitcher fulfills the requirements for a legal pitch/foot continually on rubber/ball presented ball/ball only passes hip once during delivery, and whatever other minor requirements that i missed are fulfilled, everything is good to go.

****Distraction only happens once the ball is released and in flight. Only then does the pitcher become a fielder... And only then can he do illegal actions to distract the batter.... ie. yelling, running at batter, etc.

I believe there was no controversy on the pitching in Reno.... The SSUSA staff watched and, rightly in my opinion, realized that what they were watching was within the rules.

Only a few people had issues with it...... Mainly two or three Mavericks from what I was told.

I am sure the vast majority of Maverick players that played competitive ball in their youth still considered what Donny was doing one step above BP pitching.

The pitch is still comming in at 5 miles an hour, must be between 6-12 feet, and has to land on the mat.
June 6, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
guys he does not understand or care,he wants the ball so he can just blast away.please don't throw the ball to take me off my stride,that is felonious as far as he is concerned.what a cry baby.
June 6, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Tim.
We're in both weekends,
Pleasanton and Redwood City.
Let me know.

You can have it any way we want, Tim
as far as I'm concerned as long as it's CLEAR
and ENFORCIBLE for all.
Yet, the character of the way we pitch now
is one where a pitcher who jumps around
is being overly aggressive and will lose
the protection you, me and others have given
them up to this point.
Will you feel the same about not going near the pitcher if he's jumping around trying to distract
and deceive you?
I know a lot of guys myself included
will "take the gloves off" regarding a pitcher
trying to "do too much", show boat, distract,
quick pitch and/or deceive.
June 6, 2011
Omar Khayyam
958 posts
I agreed with einstein that if a pitched ball is going to be called illegal because of the delivery motion, then we need a clarification of the rules, and I gave an example from my own past where I thought my pitch was NOT illegal.

But I don’t get einstein’s assumption that if a pitch throws a batter off balance then he will automatically retaliate by trying to hit the pitcher (not too difficult with the pitcher 50 feet away, using a composite bat, and a hard ball). Where does this attitude come from and how many players are like einstein and feel it is a sportsmanlike, normal response and not a cowardly unsporting response to being fooled?

I have been thrown off as a batter many, many times in my softball years: the first time I saw a knuckle ball, being surprised by a good curve, having the pitcher step to the side, a quick pitch, pitcher deliberately throwing high into a low sun, pitcher grunting as he released the ball, and on and on.

In all those occasions, it never occurred to me that I now had the “right” to try to drill the pitcher by hitting the next pitch up the middle. That such a response was somehow a manly act of retaliation. That I would violate the unwritten rules of softball by not seeking revenge. In fact, I’ve only played with one teammate who expressed that opinion. For me and the rest of my teammates over the years: you’re fooled; shake it off; grudgingly congratulate the pitcher for getting you; focus more next time.

The ball still has to come in at a slow arc, still has to hit the mat to be a strike, still is hittable if in range (depending on wind conditions). What kind of mentality thinks they have been messed with and the proper response is the intent to injure?

Of course, I’m not talking about true “attempt to distract” which might include rushing the batter while the ball is in the air, throwing your glove in the sky, yelling or jumping or falling down, or even throwing a fast pitch at the batter’s body. In those cases I’m sure einstein and I agree that there is a place for illegally “distracting the batter”.
June 6, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Intellectually engaging but off the mark
as usual OK.
The reason why guys like Donny and some others
purposefully try to deceive or distract batters
is to get them off their game and "try"
to hit the middle.
A pitcher is benefited by a batter doing anything that is not his normal approach to hitting and/or "getting into his head".
The percentages favor a hitter getting a batter to do anything he's less comfortable/practiced
in doing even if hitting up the middle.
So, it's obvious that a pitcher who practices distraction and deception will get more hot balls hit at them.
Great fielders like Donny and some others
are very aware of these dynamics.

And yes.
From a hitter and pitcher's standpoint
the pitcher is MORE likely to be drilled
being distractive and deceiving than not.
This is a given.
It's obvious.
It's real and not a function of intellectual
processing.
June 6, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
If a time comes that Joe drills a pitcher, can we assume the following would be an admission of intent? Also, is this a stance the SSUSA or any other softball association would want flowing from their memberships mouths? Softball has no room for folks who think like this. These comments are exactly why someone like Joe should be made to swing a wooden bat as therapy!

"If pitchers don't mess with batters
then batters stay off the pitcher.
When pitchers get "cute" or too aggressive
or distracting than batters tend to say
all bets are off about protecting them.

or

"Yet, the character of the way we pitch now
is one where a pitcher who jumps around
is being overly aggressive and will lose
the protection you, me and others have given
them up to this point."
June 6, 2011
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
From my first memory of little league I was taught to keep my eyes on the ball. When I am able to do that it doesnt matter what the pitcher does. He can do backflips for all I care. See the ball, hit the ball........basic fundimentals. Now if I can just learn to square it up some...........
June 6, 2011
softball4b
Men's 60
706 posts
Joe is not saying he would hit the pitcher, but we all know guys that would.

A pitcher should do everything they can to get the batter out including pitch legal, illegal or whatever. It is the umpire's job to arbitrate the game.When I am the catcher, I make sure the umpire knows that he is in control, but don't tell my pitcher,"no higher", just call it a ball.

Pitchers should throw balls that are as close to being illegal as possible. It is my job as a hitter to hit a good pitch, I don't need a cookie to be successful. Sometimes illegal pitches are thrown just to throw the batter off, so be it, it is slow pitch.

There is not a pitcher alive that I fear, there are plenty that I don't like hitting against and then there are those I just love on the mound.

If a pitcher throws a pitch that a batter can't handle and it goes up the middle then who is to blame...I do not believe in head hunting...any more..when I was younger it was my job to make sure the pitchers, pitch to the HR hitters..now if I go up the middle, it is a total accident.

There are a number of responses within this thread that have good points and plenty of different opinions, but none that I can ascertain that are malicious.

June 6, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey John.
How're you feeling?
And you're right about little league.
Yet,
why do pitchers go through all the behavior
if there was NO return?
Ask any pitcher who pitches U-TRIP and ASA
about the difference and effect on hitters.

Plus, the key thing, John, is about the character of our game as it stands now, the senior game.
Younger pitchers are coming up
with more distractive/deceiving styles.
Do we want to incorporate them as is
or have the adapt to us?
That's more the question Tim and I were discussing
regarding this over the phone.

And yes, John
there was a very heated controversy over this
in Reno which is a sign of things to come
if no clarification is forthcoming.
June 6, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
who cares what the dancing clown does on the mound,it is slow pitch softball,the ball comes at you at less than 25 mph,is it really that hard to hit,is so maybe you should find another game to play..mmmmm like maybe tee ball,then you wouldn't have to worry about a pitcher fooling you with a 20-25 mph pitch.
June 6, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Sad dog (thanks, Gary)
If the pitcher's antics didn't work then why would he do them and why would there be such a contentious stir created in Reno???
Hmmmmmmmmm.
Get that thinking cap on Robert and give that
one another turn.
Why do U-Trip pitchers do all the faking
and juking if it wasn't effective?
That would be a lot of wasted motion
and energy for nothing, dontcha-know.

You're just recurgitating what you've been swallowing from proponents and pushers of 'kinder, gentler softball'
that happens to reward a very few
at the expense of the many.
Our big bad game is much too danja-wuss
for us to be pway-in' anymore, eh Wobbie?
We need softball police who would be lining
their own pockets with the profits
of displacing present day equipment
with their designs and inventions.

Your movement is dead, Rob and all the self interest along with it.
The injuries you cried and warned us about
have never occurred and we're having fun.
Bat companies are making more and better
senior bats.
Money talks, Robbie.
And it wouldn't matter if someone got hurt
because risk is part "of" our game
not apart from it.
Guys have been getting hurt in softball
forever.
All of a sudden now, it can't be tolerated???
Ball-oney.

Sorry and sad that the same old saw
cutting over and over again into that old,
old wood Robert.
That ball will NEVER be used in Senior ball.
The people have spoken and the self appointed
profit minded softball police have been checked
at the door.

And Robert,
why did you go and play such a dangerous game
in Reno knowing what equipment would be used where you could have killed someone
or been killed yourself by the lethal missiles
that you've been preaching and warning us against?
Sad, sad dog.

June 6, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
And Robert,
the hitters involved were 50 Major plus
monsters from the one of the top 2 senior teams in the country.
Whiners and babies, Robbie?
You calling the Mavericks, aka Sommerville,
that's Bull Kramer,
Mickey Hughes, Parnell, Turbo, Dave Meggison
and friends, sissies and cry babies?
What level ball you playin' again, sad old man?

Try thinking next time before you open your mouth.
On second thought, just try thinking at all
instead of parroting what others have been telling you to say, for years.

And what level of ball and on what teams
do Pricer and Manassus play do you think?
Are they players at all?
Are the sellers/investors in new equipment perhaps
and self interested in seeing our game change?
Hmmmmmmmm.
June 6, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
well maybe the pitcher can fool some people who really can't hit or are taken in by a pitcher's foolish antics on the mound.he has to release the ball toward you sometime and it will be only coming at you at 25 mph max,so again what is so hard about hitting a 12" ball thrown underhand.i love to hear batters whine when pitching,means i'm doing my job.

oh the way you posting is just proof of the non-player you really are,as i do play with any conditions set forth and don't whine about someone pitching a ball underhand to me attempting to fool me.i personally don't get fooled by a pitcher,i love that challenge myself.
June 7, 2011
softball4b
Men's 60
706 posts
Guys is it really necessary to try and make your point by insults or innuendos. Make your point, back it up with facts and move on. The discussion loses merit when diminished name calling, implied or otherwise.

Whether I agree or disagree I always lose when I lose my composure. My ex-wife has a lot of my money because of her being able to push my buttons.

Be competitive, be demonstrative, but there is no reason to be disrespectful, it just takes away from the topic.
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