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Discussion: Option to withdraw????

Posted Discussion
June 15, 2011
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2664 posts
Option to withdraw????
We are playing the the Southeast Championship in Aiken, SC this weekend. We are disappointed in that there aren't any other 50 major teams entered. There are only a total of 11 teams playing, from 50 to 75 age divisions.
I understand that not all tournaments can draw 6 or 8 teams per division. At times we would be happy with 4.
My problem is that we submit our entry fee on time but then find that we don't have any teams in our division. We then must play teams in other divisioins, giving 5 runs and/or an additional defensive player.
We should have the option to withdraw and have our entry fee refunded. I was told that we would not be refunded our entry fee if we choose not to compete.
Did I mention that even though there are only 11 teams that we will be playing Friday, Saturday and Sunday? Games are schedulded to start Friday at 11:00am with the last one scheduled to start at 2:00pm. Saturday the game times are 10:00am-2:00. Sunday the championship game is noon with the "if" game scheduled for 1:30.
I'm sure we will think long and hard next year about playing in tournaments like this.
June 15, 2011
crusher
Men's 70
395 posts
Bruce, we just got involved in an SPA tour in Plano Texas that went for 3 days, the up front info did list 20-22 or close. That shows 3 days, however, most people have become use to 2 day tour and do not really read the - .

Some tournament directors get a 10% kickback from the hotels on their recommended list, the result it will take a 2 team bracket 3 days to play.

What to do, Get all info up front, may also pay with a credit card then file with the credit card company if they will not refund money like your case of no teams.

Just had an SSUSA in South Dallas, run good and in 2 days.
June 15, 2011
TexasTransplant
Men's 70
420 posts
Bruce. I agree. If there are no teams with which you can compete on a reasonably equal basis, especially if the field for the whole tournament is so sparse, you should have the option to withdraw. We went to the ISA World Championships in St Louis a few years back and found that we were the only team in our classification. We played our 5 games,winning only one, but were the "World Champions" for our classification.

I sometimes believe that we have reached the point where there are too many tournaments. That's really hard to say for someone who always wants to play more, but it seems as if participation is getting diluted among the many organizations that are reaching for a piece of the pie.

Here is Texas, we've had SSUSA/THCC and SPA for sometime. This year we've also got NSA tournaments, a USSSA National Senior tournament, and numerous individuals putting on unsanctioned tournaments.

Last week's "Texas State Championships" had 5 teams in the 65+ group. 4 AA/AAA and one Major (not counting the Major+ team that played in a lower age bracket). It was pretty much the same group of teams that we've played all year.

Three weeks ago there was an SPA tournament in Plano and an NSA tournament in Georgetown (less than 200 miles away) the same weekend.

At the end of the day, the sanctioning organizations are businesses (a sometimes overlooked fact) and are free to compete for our dollars as they see fit, but a little coordination of dates would be appreciated. Teams participating in a tournament should to be able to expect that the organizers can draw a enough teams to assure reasonable competition.

June 15, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Gentlemen, in most business transactions the buyer controls the terms. Start exercising your control.

If not, you sort of get what you deserve.
June 15, 2011
PlanoPlayer
Men's 55
71 posts
I have a question for you. Do you think the high tournament entry fees and three day tourneys (with the exception of the big, national/world tourneys) have anything to do with the reduced entries, but mostly the high entry fees. It is amazing to me how few entrants there are in each age bracket...even for the national/world tournies which are very, very expensive and three and four days long.

Quite frankly, I am not sure the value is there for most people when you factor in high tournament entry fees, travel, food, lodging etc versus the return...even if you win the tournament!
June 15, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Plano, you hit the nail on the head. The return in most cases is not there at all, particulary where in a LOT of situations you are playing the same teams over and over.
June 15, 2011
Ho
230 posts
Find another reason and nail it on the back of the parent organization and tournament director.

We are now halfway through our tournament (Buckeye Classic). Sorry guys, it is only for AA and AAA teams...when the majors come and play it tends to drive the AAA's away.

Anyway:

We have TEN 75 teams (including teams from Kansas, Minn and Wis); we have 20 70's (12 AAA and 8 AA); we have 14 65's (7 and 7 AA and AAA); we have 18 60's (8 AA and 10 AAA) and we had 6 55's and 8 50's All AA and AAA.

We increased from 54 teams to 74 this year (although 14 were 50's and 55's which we didn't have last year).

The problem of low entries is lack of promotion and preperation by the TD and also letting Major teams come in and play AAA's or having cross-over age games.

As for returning entry fee's..you can not penalize a team pulling out due to injuries. At worst we have just kept the umpires fee's per game and returned the rest..in the majority of case, if it is outside of a two week period we have returned the full amount.

You want to stop the small tournaments that make you play games in another class or another age group...STOP ATTENDING them.

Ho
June 15, 2011
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Hi Bruce great topic thought I would add to it. Here is what we have done as a team. We have a 50 major team out of Nevada/Utah. What we have done this year is the following, we only go to tournaments that historically have a big following, so far three, Winter World, Spring World and Reno rest of the season is LVSSA, Phoenix and Winter world again all well attended. We skipped two in our own backyard because we did not like what we were hearing. One of the tournaments we skipped the fields were 15 minutes from my house. As a team we have done some cheap backyard stuff and have one coming up where it will be a senior recreation tournament. We'll do about 8 total down from our usual 12. We decided as a team if we can't get a good feel for attendance we don't go. We're not going to put a round peg in a square hole. Saves chasing refunds giving or receiving runs and playing out of age messing with HR rules etc. So far it has worked real well. Also been very good for my pocket book and golf game.
June 15, 2011
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2664 posts
Joe, Maybe I need to clean up my Pings!
Some of you have mentioned SPA and other organizations. This is an SSUSA tournament that is a TOC qualifier. I don't believe this problem is with any one specific organization.
Ho, I like your idea about paying only the umpire's fees.
Last, but not least, Gary, we will exercise our "clout" next time.
June 15, 2011
backlast
Men's 55
10 posts
Bruce, We (Reality Check) will be there and were slated to play your team in the opener. Now we won't play you at all due to a schedule change on Monday. We have four teams in the 55 AAA division.Of those four one is a 60 AAA team. I sent an E-Mail to SSUSA last week and asked to finish this tournament on Saturday which is possible. I did this because of the low team turn out and the fact that Sunday is Fathers Day. They never even responded to my request. The high entry fee and the extra day have made this tournament one that will be looked at hard before we come back. It will be good to see you and Don this week end.
June 15, 2011
Michigan Vet
Men's 55
230 posts
Bruce, We were going to play in the Buckeye Classic Over 55 last weekend. 2 weeks before the tournament 3 guys decided not to go. Our Manager caleed the tournament Director and explained the situation. His comment was "We are not SSUSA, your check will be in the mail tomorrow". Manager got his refund back whithin 4 days! That isx how things should be run!!!!
June 15, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
guys most of the prol stems from the fact we have to pay for the tourney's so early.now the assoc's have us at their mercy.i do feel if there are no teams to play you should be given a full refund,it gets tiresome to play out of div teams all the time.my team has done that most every tournament so far this year.i have seen tourney winner's and TOC bids given out to teams who win no games,b/c they are the only team in their div playing.yeah right they are champions......
June 15, 2011
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Too many divisions and too many age groups. The problem will never stop as long as they insist on having so many. Combine during the season, split up for the Worlds.
June 16, 2011
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2664 posts
The TD has told our manager that if we win our 3 team bracket we will get the 50 major TOC bid and the second place team will get the 50 AAA bid. If we lose we won't get the bid. We are giving these teams 5 runs or an 11th defensive fielder, isn't this to equalize the differences in classes? Then why won't we get our bid if we place second?
June 16, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Bruce, people "vote" with their wallet. If you continue to pay, they will contine to do whatever they want.

We have both been around life long enough to know customer service is not what it used to be.
June 16, 2011
Senior Moments
Men's 60
57 posts
Bruce -- The Aiken registration deadline was extended a week and a free Combat bat was used as an incentive to enter. I attempted to get information about which teams would be attending and no one would inform me.

The schedule was released 5 days before the start of the tournament. Reviewing the list of 12 total teams it indicated that there were 4 symbols denoting "equalizer" games. This meant 14 of the 18 seeding games were playing with an "equalizer". All brackets would be using an "equalizer" in bracket play except the 70 Major Plus. What kind of tournament competition is this?

Senior Moments 65 decided to withdraw for "competition" and "economic" reasons. While I wholly disagree with the SSUSA refund policy, it became evident we could save each player $400-$600 by withdrawing and not playing a 75 age group team.

I feel that communication between the Tournament Directors and the teams would benefit everyone. Why not release a list of teams 2 weeks before the tournament date and allow teams to spend their money wisely? My suggestion would be to allow teams to withdraw if their bracket play did not have a minimum of 4 teams of the same class in their bracket.

The fact is, with the current refund policy, the TD makes more money when a team withdraws.

I wish all the teams that are playing the best.
June 16, 2011
Mr. Manassas
230 posts
It is amazing to me that we put up with some of the "stuff" in tournaments considering the entry fees that we pay. Poor quality balls(I almost hate to say that), umpires that act bored that they are there, rediculous time schedules,etc. I know that putting on tournaments can be trying but some consideration should go to the consumer. Bruce...you're comments about having no one to play should be a "no brainer" as far as getting your money back.
June 16, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
how about not paying till there is a list of attending team put out,maybe that would help.as it is now,we pay way in advance b/c of their requirement to do so,they get our money then hold us hostage.


what about this,a $50 team deposit to hold a spot in the tourney,if no teams in your bracket, you get your deposit back,just like other business's do,when pre-selling and such.
June 16, 2011
Marv19
Men's 60
444 posts
First off let me tell you I'm not defending or endorsing anyone in this string BUT... Here is some added information for this debate. Venues, at least the ones here, require a 30 day cancellation. That is if you can't field your tournament you have to cancel before 30 days or pay a penalty. And the penalty can be pretty stiff. ($500 and up) So once you're inside the 30 days you're at a point of no return. More often than not 30 days out you may only have 4 or 5 teams confirmed. So it would be nice to have a list of teams but we are guys. We don't even make hotel reservations in time. :O) Some teams wait until the last minute to RSVP. Also once inside the 30 day window only the park director can cancel a tournament. That would be most likely weather related. Its up to the Park director as to whether the fields will be playable. Sometimes that can't be done up to 24 hours in advance. Hope this adds a little more perspective.
June 16, 2011
turn2
486 posts
Bruce,
That is a bad situation. You guys should have came up to Salem, Va. There were 9 50 major teams.
At least you are playing against 50 aaa teams. In Salem we were the only 60 major plus team and we got to play the 2 55 major plus teams (Linedrive and High Street). Wow what fun we had. (ha ha) We did not even receive an equalizer. It is not fun getting beat up by the younger teams. We played them tough but lost all 3 games.
Good Luck,
Donnie
June 16, 2011
Mr. Manassas
230 posts
I know that TDs have a tough job, but sometimes it is a little ridiculous that we start a game with old softballs after a $500 entry fee.
June 17, 2011
perly
88 posts
To the SSUSA Staff. It would be nice to hear from you on this. You responded quickly to einsteins comments about pitching rules!!! Teams have limited resources and should be able to withdraw from events and get thier entry fee back if they have "a valid reason" not to attend. Not having teams to play in their respective division should be a "valid reason." BruceinGa's team attends many tournaments throughout the year and my guess is they've never tried to get a refund for a tournament they've entered. Bad policy in any business should entice that business to reconsider that policy. Bruce, good luck to you guys and we'll see you in Marietta.
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