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Discussion: Competition

Posted Discussion
June 21, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Competition
It seems that most folks here want to send the pitcher to a gunfight with a knife in hand here. I pitched for the most part USSSA A&B ball for the better parts of 20+ years. As a senior player, I'm not really fond of it to play against it now. But to hear some folks on here, you might as well serve it up and protect yourself. That's the way you make it sound. Evolution in the game is good; as long as it still resembles the game we started playing years ago. What's being said now is let's play with the hottest ball & bat we can find and the hell with the defensive part of the game. This is not softball. This is batting practice. For the folks that feel strongly about using the new & improve glass bats, good for you and good luck to you. You were never softball purist. Before you blast me for wanting the kinder, gentler and safer brand of ball. I am a softball purist and would like the generations to come to be able to enjoy the game for the way it was intended. Do some of you mean to say if you can't hit the ball out, you wouldn't play? That's the way you make it sound. JMO
June 21, 2011
E4/E6
Men's 60
855 posts
You hear pretty well Pricer.
If we were meant to hit a softball 400' + we might as well be using a hardball. And maybe we are.
According to "The Majority", hitting the ball hard and far is fundamental to having fun and the longevity of softball. True or not, softball will survive, we may not necessarily like it, but survive it will.
June 21, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
basically pricer you have hit the nail on the head.if ya can't hit it 400' ya can't have fun,if ya can't kill someone with the hot combo we have ya can't have fun......

to me that is ridicules as i have fun with any equipment we use to play softball with.
June 21, 2011
perly
88 posts
Pricer, isn't softball a hitters game? In a good Major or Major Plus game both teams score in the 20-30 run range. You say you played A/B ball 20 years ago. Weren't the scores similar then? I remember scoring 50 sometimes or having someone put 50 on the teams I played for sometime. The game I've played for 35+ years has always been an offensive game. I agree, everyone back in the day couldn't hit a homerun and I'd like to see the game go back to where a home run was something special. I wish all the Senior Softball Organizations that participate in the Summit would poll every registed played and see what their preferences are in regards to bat/ball combinations. If it's Senior Bats and current balls so be it and if it's metal bats and a different ball that's great to. Give the majority what they want and put all this controversy to bed. Do you use a Senior Bat when you play? I bet 95% of the guys who complain about the bats swing one in tournaments.
June 21, 2011
Duke
Men's 60
725 posts
To all of those that commented above,

You are all correct and accurate. I agree that it is fun to hit the Ultra II, but has anyone noticed the decline in senior softball teams, especially this year? In the larger tournaments, there have been the usual amount of great participation. The smaller tournaments have taken a big hit. Even when you get 5 teams in your division, they are rarely in the same age/level.

4 divisions just does not reasonbly cut it, but it is necessary with the usage of the Ultra II and good ball. My former team, Double Edge, knew that they could have entered the 2010 Winter Worlds as a 60 Major Plus and win it. All we had to do is show up. There were no other 60 Major Plus teams entered. We would have played 5 exhibition games and be done. In fact, there are only about 10 or less in the entire USA and Canada. That is just one example.

Take the Southwest championships in April 2011, there were 2 55 Major, 1 55 Major Plus, and 1 60 Major Plus team. 3 of the 4 teams were going to win rings and a berth to the TOC, which would have been the case in the above situation too.

This weekend in a small round robin tournament, we have 5 teams in my division: 2 55 Major, 1 55 AAA, and 2 55 AA.

What I am really trying to say, but will fall on deaf ears and never come to be, is that we need to play tournaments like the one's in Huntington Beach. The bad ball and bad bat tournament. Maybe we could compromise on a good ball. There is offense and defense, AND it levels the playing field, where a good AA could defeat a Major/Major Plus team. Therefore, with a single wall bat and a good ball, we could reduce the senior divisions from 4 to only 2. That would make for larger double elimination brackets like the old days used to be.

Just My Opinions,

Andy Smith
June 21, 2011
crusher
Men's 70
403 posts
Pricer, good news, do not know where you live. Move to the Dallas area and you can find "day ball" where mikens are not allowed. Still good softball. You can use your single wall or double wall bats, probably even wood bats. The guys have fun and play 3 or 4 times a week.
It may be there is a day league near you where you can enjoy softball again.
Good tidings to you and keep playing as we need more seniors playing softball.
June 21, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Good ball/good bat or
lively bat/ball combo
is ESSENTIAL to enjoy softball.
Hitting a ball hard and well
is fundamental to the enjoyment of our game.
It can be a blue dot and a single wall bat
and that would be fine for most to all of us
but when the self invented ball and bat police
came on the scene to stake a claim
and make some money
everything starting going south for us
and our game.
Guys got hot bats to ensure having a good time
as poorer hitting balls became more prominent.
TD's were losing lots of balls that were
going over the fences and were eager to hear
of a game that would use just 1 or 2 balls
all game.
Then all the screaming about safety
and the cost of insurance to make us
feel guilty for the fun we were having
and wanting to have.

These self interested and dedicated few
are still trying to get us to accept a game
where the hitter will be penalized
for hitting the ball intuitively and well
but rewarded for miss-hits and indirect contact.
It's pure balogna
will and should NEVER fly.

What would the Babe say?
What would Mantle and Mays say?
What would Henry Aaron say?

I was watching the game when Mickey Mantle hit a ball
that was still rising when it hit the upper facade in right field in old Yankee Stadium.
It would have gone over 600 feet.
Most exciting inspiring thing I'd ever seen.
Think he could have done that with a
52x275 ball?

Listen to the arguments one by one and not all at once.
Safety
Enjoyment
Bat Cheating
Speed of the game.
Ego and pride.
And they all can be dealt with by themselves
and should be without the need or desire
for any panacea.



June 21, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Perly, to answer your question about softball being a hitterís game. No I never believed that. If a team has 10 hitters that can hit the ball where the defense can't field the ball, well I guess they win. Bu not to give the defense the opportunity to have that chance is just batting practice. Those high scoring games years ago were being done with a lot of base hits with some homeruns sprinkled in. Now, it's all about the homeruns. They were a sight to see when they were hit. Now it's the norm. If you don't hit a piss rocket, some just can't be happy. You got some people on here that want to try and convince folks that it's all about the game evolving. BS, and you guys indicating know it. It's about participation and we're losing folks because of the game being played now. It's not even close to being a fun as the game was 15-20 years ago. Just for the record, I could hit them pout back then and I come pretty close now with my aluminum bat. The composites are like a drug, it makes you feel like someone or something your not. I have asked and still not one of the composite advocates has answered the question as of yet. WHAT HAVE COMPOSITE BATS DONE TO MAKE THE GAME BETTER? Not the individual, but the game. I heard this comment from a long time major player and I feel it applies to all of softball. "The bats have taken zeroes and made them heroes." JMO
June 21, 2011
Duke
Men's 60
725 posts
einstein,

Always a pleasure to have you chime on in. Never a surprise to what your answer will be. I did want to answer one of your questions.

I think the Babe, Mantle, Mays, and Aaron would not have cared too much what they used. They were all great. The Babe played during a dead ball era part of his career and pitched early in his career, Mantle played hurt half of his career, Mays was handicapped with the winds of SF, and Aaron had the fences moved in his last year or 2 so he could break the record more easily. After he broke the record, the fences were moved back.

None of that answers your question about what would they have said. Well, the only thing that I can think of that they all may have said after their careers were over might be, "damn, I could have hit over 300 more home runs, if I just would have used steriods." LOL!!

Have a nice day everyone!

Andy Smith
June 21, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
There's 2 examples of the arguments against us playing the game we've loved
since we was babies and sorry guys,
there's just nothing there worth citing or repeating.

The farthest ball I ever hit was with a Worth 405 EST and a Worth Blue Dot Ball.
That was before composite bats.

I remember seeing a softball championship game on ESPN a long time ago.
It was in Vegas I remember.
Pitches were throwing 10 feet arc underhand without deception
and 9 out of 10 shots were home runs.
A team came back with 28 runs in the bottom of the last inning
to win the championship, the national championship
and it was exciting to watch, exciting enough to put on National TV.

Do I feel bad and guilty that I like to hit with good bats and balls?
Hell no.
Babe Ruth, the Sultan of Swat brought the game into national prominence
with the long ball.
Think those early balls weren't hot?

How come we haven't moved to a kinder, gentler game yet.
You guys have been carping and cajoling and miss-directing us
for some time now.
It's because you're wrong about us, the most of us,
who we are, how we play and how we want to play.
You have other agendas and interests and it shows.
It really does.


June 22, 2011
Paco13
374 posts
Pricer, U and the others are correct the game has changed for the worst and only one dimensional...Offense. I consider myself and above average SS and had played SS throughout my softball years...however the fun has taken away, when you cannot get to any ground ball and the occasional ground hit are U is a bullet...no longer a routine play. The problem that we have is that senior ball is making too much money from the senior bat companies and therefore their interest on safety is irrelevant to them. Anytime that you have a pitcher having to sign a waiver if he chooses not to wear a mask...you know that there is a problem. Personally a USSSA bat and 44/375 combo is hot enough. We are older with less ability and slower reflexes...but however we use the hottest bat...makes no sense. We are all now HR hitters, no longer the pride for us little people get on base for the big boys to hit a big fly...why? Because now a skinny little fellow like me can hit the big fly. My 2 centavos.
June 22, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Same old story;
Same old song.

Good bats and balls are essential
to the positive experience
and joy of playing our game.
Always HAS and always WILL.
That's all there is
and you need to know.

Kinder, gentler softball.
What a joke.

June 22, 2011
perly
88 posts
Please answer this questions. If everybody can hit homeruns and there is no defense being played why are there more AA and AAA teams than there are Major and Major + teams? It seems if "everybody" can hit bombs there should be a lot more Major/Major+ teams and fewer AA/AAA since there are HR limits then an out in AA/AAA. Offense is the name of the game in team sports. I'll bet for every player that got into baseballs hall of fame for defense there's ten that got there for offense. Also, personally I think the low turn out in tournaments is more driven by the economy and to many tournaments to choose from and not the equipment we are using. If you want even less teams to show up start hitting sorry bats and balls. Anybody that would rather see a 8-6 score than a 25-23 score is playing the wrong sport.
June 22, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Why not just end the charade and make the game t-ball? That might be the logical conclusion of where many want it to head now.

Any reason why seniors need bats that the guys under 50 can't use? And no, it is not to prevent shaving, that still occurs for some baffling reason.
June 22, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Babble, babble, and babble!!!!! You two are so predictable. You bring nothing to the table but your individual and selfish opinions. Get over yourselves already. I repeat the question for the two who speak for everyone. "WHAT HAVE COMPOSITE BATS DONE TO MAKE THE GAME BETTER? Don't run and hide now, just a real educated answer will work, or don't you have one? We all wait with baited breath.
June 22, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Right on, Perly.
It's the regular hitters/players who enjoy
and benefit the most from good bats and balls and
or the elite and other interested few who keep trying to push us and tell us how wrong we are
and how gaudy our game is.

Why doesn't SSUSA change to the new ball?
Ask 'em.
There wouldn't be anyone coming to play.
Why do we have 117 teams in NCSSA?
Good bats and balls.

Why do you want to eliminate composite bats?
Do you and did you ever sell bats and balls
for that matter?
Have any very close associates/friends
who do?
That would explain a lot.
Why not let us know who you are and then
we could judge better for ourselves
your true motivation and color?

You sound like a megalomaniac
who once or is still trying to control all of us and our game
because he knows more and better than
the rest of us
what is and should be.


June 22, 2011
Jose #12
Men's 60
86 posts
Pricer, for one, at age 65 I can't generate the bat speed that I could at 25,30,35 etc. and using composites helps my diminished power (not for HR's, but for hits). Also when we were using metal bats we were using 525 compression balls. Not sure guys would want to play 6-5 games with metal bats and 52-300 balls.

When I started playing tournament in the 70's, good teams using Bombats and SB12 balls routinely scored 20-30+ runs. So it has always been a "hitters" game.

As to the HR hitters, Perly is right, HR's are limited base on your classification. I play both 60/65 AAA's and rarely see any team hit their alloted 3 HR's. Scores in the 18-22 range, normally win games.

Not sure I would want to see changes, for myself (and my teammates) we like it as it is.

Jose, Stahl Post 60/65's

June 22, 2011
perly
88 posts
Gary19, the reason we use Senior Bats is because the governing bodies allow it and they're available. I bet you and Pricer both use them when you play tournaments? Yes or No? DO YOU GUYS WHO HATE THEM SO MUCH USE THEM OR NOT? Lets hear it. Composite bats are used in College Baseball, Under 50 Softball and Senior Softball. It's called technology. Golf clubs have changed, football equipment has changed but somehow softball should use the same equipment we used in the 70' and 80's. You imply composite bats have somehow caused softballs demise. What a joke. As for as babble babble babble all anyone on here has is an opinion. That's the beauty of Freedom of Speech. I guess your opinion is better that anyone else's? Come on now, keep your composure.
June 22, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Pricer.
You sound a lot like a guy who used to post a lot on this site.
Some of your phrasing, syntax and idioms
would suggest so.
I can't remember his name
but you remind me a lot of him.
June 22, 2011
curveball
Men's 65
404 posts
Duke, we had a very representitive field in 65 Major at Reno, 9 very quality teams. Only one good team from the West was missing.

Also, bats and balls: We did not have any team(us or them) hit more than the HR limit. That is with 30+ MPH winds blowing out in lots of the games. The bats and balls don't add that much to the 65 Major level in my mind. The guys that hit them are guys you'd expect to even if they swung a broomstick!
June 22, 2011
canIjack
Men's 60
322 posts
Now that's a great question guys.

WHAT HAVE COMPOSITE BATS DONE TO MAKE THE GAME BETTER?

NOTHING.....Not a thing.......JMO

But, I do see more injuries occurring on Defense, from trying to field those missiles being hit at you.....Just my experience at 3rd and pitching to the young guys.


USSSA BATS 1.20 ALUMINUM AND 44 CORE 375 Were fine when I stared Senior Ball. And there weren't any Shaving or honning of the bats.
June 22, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
K you are so right,but to go back to the metal bats would cost so many seniors more $ to get new bats(wouldn't bother me as i saved a couple),it is the reason i advocate the 52 ball for play.we will be using it this coming weekend for a tourney(NSA) here in georgetown,tx,they are going to let us use our senior bats and i'll give a report on how they do,i have already played a league with them using non-senior bats and like it.
June 22, 2011
perly
88 posts
einstein and Jose #12.

einstein, you've been called out, ridiculed, challenged, berated and many other adjectives for standing up for good bat/ball combinations and you're still fighting the good fight against guys who say no to Senior Bats and good balls. I'll bet 95% of those saying no to Senior bats use them when they play tournaments. Why would anybody want to go back in time and play the game like it was played 30 years ago? I guess we need to go back to leather football helments with no face-guards, presimmon drivers and cars with V-8's that get 10 miles to a gallon.

Jose #12, Great Post. I'm sure the majority of players agree with you. I can't imagine anybody really wants to play a 6-5 slowpitch softball game. I'd bet that in most games the HR limits are reached.
June 22, 2011
perly
88 posts
Sorry, I meant the HR limits are not reached.
June 22, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
They have been declared illegal in all of baseball and fastpitch from college thru little league.

http://www.baseballbatreviewsblog.com/uncategorized/composite-baseball-bats-banned

http://www.littleleague.org/media/newsarchive/2010/Sep-Dec/CompositeBatMoratium.htm



Could softball be far behind?
June 22, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
They have been declared illegal in all of baseball and fastpitch from college thru little league.

http://www.baseballbatreviewsblog.com/uncategorized/composite-baseball-bats-banned

http://www.littleleague.org/media/newsarchive/2010/Sep-Dec/CompositeBatMoratium.htm



Could softball be far behind?
June 22, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
perly, are you asking why anyone would want to go back to playing defense?

To go back to no time limits, no home run limits, no run/inning limits, no goalie equipment on the mound?

You mean that boring game?

Oh, and sure I use a Miken, but I don't ask for or want any of the silly rules above.
June 22, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
They always avoid talking about the need for good bats and balls
don't they.
What happened to the Worth Blue Dot and why Pricer?
You want to go to a majorly dissatisfying standard with a piece
of crap ball for what and who's benefit?
Why don't you man up and tell us who you are
then we would know why and from whence you came?

We need a lively bat/ball combo
always have and always will.
It's that simple.
The longest shot I ever hit was with a Worth EST 405
and a Worth Blue Dot ball.
I'd go back to that standard in 5 minutes.
But that's not what you're advocating, is it.

Lively bats and balls, forever.
June 22, 2011
canIjack
Men's 60
322 posts
Not being funny mad dog, but I paid 7 dollars for a metal Easton 1.20 BP at a swap meet in Torrance, a. I needed a single wall for a Senior league in Long Beach. But like you said "we do have a small fortune in Senior Bats". I really don't see them outlawing Composites in Slow pitch. But I do see a change in the Ball coming.

I to like a good ball and bat combo. But we really can go too far with this Juice up equipment.

Last week in a league game with young people, I hit a ball down third base line. I was swing my oldest Gray Dabomb Combat(they allow Senior bats),well the third basemen is my next door neighborís grand son(36 years old) The pitch was short and I pulled it down to third. BOOM went the Combat; the ball went off the 6' 2" 285 lb man's head. Scary moment guys. The ball tip the glove and hit off the top of the young mans head. He just laid there. My first thoughts were, What was I going to tell his Grandmother (my neighbor).I damn near killed their grandson. He laid there for a few moments but got up with grape fruit knot on his head.

Truly eye opening, just to see just what a 60 year old man can do with these Senior Bats.
Oh by the way, Iíve been hit in the chin at 3rd base with a ball in LV. The ball was hit by a Miken II in 2002, I was playing 2 steps in back of 3rd. The LV Star batter hit a 1 hopper, that splits my chin open (no stitches), I super glued the 3 inch (gash,slit) and tape it up and kept on playing.

And No one was complaining about the bats in those days, were they?

Joe, I to want a good ball/bat combo, but were do we draw the Line.
June 22, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
perly are you asking would i carry a knife to a gun fight,hell no i bring a gun just like everyone else would.unlike some people who want a distinct advantage,that would bring a gun to a knife,i would not be afraid to play with lesser equipment,your true ability's show then.
June 22, 2011
perly
88 posts
Gary19

I belief people still play defense. There are HR limits in AA/AAA and you are forced to hit it down. Also, I'd like to know how many Major and Major + games the HR limits are not reached? A lot I'd guess. Check it out the next tournament you play. Defense has never been equal to offense in slowpitch softball. NEVER !!!!!!

I'd love to go back to no time limits and no run limits but the organizations don't want that so it won't happen. It doesn't matter what equipment we use.

No home run limits, those days are gone, look at how the young guys game is structured. More D/E teams than ever. Where I live, in the Florida Panhandle, when we played unlimited HR's one or two sponsor's had all the big HR hitters and everybody else played for 3rd. Not good for softball.

I'm in favor of the pitchers wearing protective equipment even if we change the bat/ball combination. Guys at all levels are bigger and stronger and with HR limits the middle is open.
June 22, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
why is the middle open with hr limits,that just tells me you can not handle the bat.i have no prol hitting the ball when limits are done,and feel no one else should,and i don't go for the middle just b/c.i will hit middle if the pitch is out there b/c i hit where it is pitched,aka inside = pull; middle of the plate = back up the middle; outside pitch = going oppo,what is so hard about that.
June 22, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Lesser equipment means less fun.
What's wrong with having fun.
There's no reason for us to dumb down our game.
It's just being pushed by those poised to "cash in" on the change
in balls and bats.

Hey Kennard.
Good bats/good balls are a must.
These guys want to change the game to suit their selfish
and self centered needs and they're full of it and themselves.

We've got huge troubles in America and everywhere in the world
we're not doing ANYTHING about,
yet we want to neuter men's softball
to make it kinder, gentler and safer??????????????????
In psychology that's called Displacement and though understandable
it promotes dysfunction.
June 22, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Steiner, you are paranoid or intimidated by someone that has spent some time on here pissing in your cheerios. Iím not that guy. Don't sell bats or balls. I have been involved in softball as a player, umpire, coach & director. I played in all the associations out there. Was director USSSA & was one of the 3 people who brought ISA to the north in Michigan. But if based on your opinion of what's needed or not needed, how about we have no rules on equipment or distraction of batters. Anything and everything goes. No protective equipment can be worn by anyone. Your asking everyone to play with the best ball & bats money can buy, but want everyone to protect themselves by wearing equipment to satisfy your conscience in case you drill somebody with one of your frozen ropes. I'm sorry, but this where I'll say, grow the F up. Youíre playing Russian roulette with a bat. You act like youíre scared to death to play without that composite. Is it just me that is seeing this in almost all of his post? I know that some of you will never agree with my opinion's on this matter. But just think about the game and how you started playing it. If you can say the game is more enjoyable today for you now than it was back then, so be it. Good luck and have a great season.
June 22, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
perly, sure some defense is still played, but not as much as there used to be. We used to have to get 3 outs and "earn our ups". Now, if we suck enough to give up 5 runs we can go and hit again. VERY strange, and not at all how it was intended.

It was never equal, but then again it was. Like I said, we used to have to get 3 outs to be able to to hit. Now we don't. That sure seems like it made defense equally important to me.

I never did understand how HR limits make hitting the middle so "necessary". Last I looked there were plenty of other spots to get basehits.
June 22, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
pricer he does not care if anyone gets killed,he has said so on here,it is the chance you take to play a rec sport,according to him,go figure.he would be the one to take a real gun to a paintball range to play,just so he could win.
he doesn't have the skill to play with a lesser ball or bat,according to him.that is the reason he needs the hot combo to be able to play.
June 22, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You guys are great ambassadors of the integrity of the game.
Pricer doesn't have what it takes to say who he is
and Robert, whom I've always respected for standing up and in like a man,
decides to play in Reno with killers and killing equipment despite
his whining and accusations regarding the rest of us.
Go figure.

A lively bat/ball combo is ESSENTIAL to the joy and experience of our game.
Nothing less can or will EVER cut it.
A 52 x 275 ball is a sock and will never, ever work
Stop trying to change a game that has passed you by
and most others find fun and enjoyable.




June 22, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
well as usual you still don't have a clue.to be able to play senior ball i have to play with you killers,i have no choice if i want to play,you don't give any viable solutions,i do.i have played with the 52 ball with and against the kids,and it seems to be doing ok,as most assoc are now going toward that ball.oh by the way at 61 i'm still a wanted commodity with the kids b/c of my hitting ability,oh also for pitching.during league i was able to hit the ball out and off the fence,so to me the ball carried very well,and we weren't using senior bats,usssa and below.....so please get some facts about this ball(as i have gone and done)before you run off and start crying about it.
this weekend i'll be playing in a NSA tourney that will be using this ball and allowing senior bats,will give another report following the tourney.
June 22, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You don't have a choice Robert?
You don't have a choice?
Do you hear what we are hearing???
Is someone holding a gun to your head.
You have called me and others immoral killers yet
you have 'no choice' but to play, invest and travel
to Reno from Texas to play with us and our DEADLY IMMORAL game s???

2 things come to mind for us, Robert.
Of course you had a choice.
You chose not to back up your own position with integrity
by not investing in and participating in one of "our" tournaments some 1500 miles away.
Then we might tend to believe that at least you believed in what
you were saying but no.
You had to say someone forced you to abandon your life
and chose to play Deathball in Nevada with us.
How sad, Sad Dog.

Next, we ARE still playing everywhere, Robert.
The killers and criminals you whine about and accuse us to be.
There's a disconnect somewhere Robert that we can readily see
but it doesn't look like you can.

Look.
I don't have a problem that you want to play a kinder, gentler, slower game,
you and the other few players in the nation who agree with you.
God bless you and I hope you find tournaments and leagues that will support you.
But when you tell me and the rest of us that we are wrong, immoral killers and criminals
for wanting to play a game you don't have the integrity not to play yourself
you are a stone hypocrite before one and all.
You have lost your credibility
and you did it to yourself, Robert.
I just called you on it.

June 22, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Robert.
I really don't have or want a problem with you.
You can do what you want and play whatever game you want.
What I don't like is your criticism of us who want to and enjoy playing a way
we have decided is enjoyable and good for us.

You think you know it all or more than us
about how we should conduct our lives
and you don't.
You think our game is broken for us and it isn't.
You think we are immoral, vain, uncaring men
and you are wrong, wrong, wrong.

Again.
You can play snail ball all you want.
Knock yourself out.
We don't want to.


June 22, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
My intentions are not to personally attack anyone. But when after I post an opinion someone starts to question my integrity, it gets personal. No one can have an opinion without Steiner & Perly giving us a thesis on why the composite bats need to stay & we need to liven up the ball some more. Steiner you said, "Pricer doesn't have what it takes to say who he is". I never said I was anyone but me. But to straighten you make sure you can verify who I am and I'm not hiding from you or anything I say. Give me a call 248-924-5659. I live in metro Detroit. I play for K Sheeran Essentials pout of Livonia, MI 50 AAA. Also you don't have the rocks to admit when youíre wrong. You have taken every post you comment on and taken it to the personal level. I should be asking who the hell do you think you are. Anyone who has ever come in contact with me in sports or for that matter life will tell you I hide behind no one and no one would ever speak for me. When I play I flat out compete, so play with what you want and bring it. I'll find a way to beat you and folks like you, but I will win it my way. Your way would make me feel like I cheated or dirty.
June 22, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I don't make the rules of life
by which men judge other men but standing up and in for yourself
is sure one of 'em.
I fundamentally respect Robert, Gary and John and others I've disagreed with here
but I and most others, have no respect for anyone who choses to criticize others
without signing in as himself.
You've done it to yourself, buddy.
I just called you on it.
You can let us know who you are anytime you want.
June 22, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
You my friend are a fool. My name is Jeff Price. Who do you think you are calling me a liar? Pickup the freaking phone and call me. If you like I'll give you my home phone as well. I guess it's easier for you to try and cast doubt in the other members on here to protect whatever integrity you think you have. I'm not sure I ever met a more insecure softball player in my life. You hide behind rules and the keyboard. You know most of the folks on here you'll never see or at least the ones you call a liar. I would hope we get the chance to meet one day. Just so I can put a face to your post. I feel sorry for you and people like you. It's like your waiting for the other shoe to drop or something. It's only softball, have fun! For that matter anyone on hear want to verify whom I might be, pickup the phone.
June 22, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Jeff.
Nice to meet you.
That wasn't all that bad was it.
Way to go and I mean it.
Accountability is essential to responsible relationships
and you ARE a stand up guy as it turns out
and I was wrong.

The issue isn't composite bats
It's good bats and balls which are essential to enjoy our game.
Why not go back to 525 x 47 blue dot balls and single wall bats?
We'd do it in a heart beat.
We have to be rewarded for hitting a ball hard and well.
We HAVE to for a variety of reasons we've kicked around for years now
and I'd be happy to reprise them any time for you
off line.
Joerinaldi56@yahoo.com
Hope to see you at a tournament someday, too.
June 22, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
really whieny is that what you think.you say you respect me and others,well i have to throw the BS flag on that,hell you don't even respect yourself.if i want to play senior softball i have to play SSUSA,SPA,they both have the same rules,so please as i ask again,what is my choice for playing senior softball.i am playing a NSA tourney this weekend the way i have been talking about,with the 52 ball,and that is only 1 for the year,so tell me again where do i play senior ball for the other 51 weekends,again where.

pricer don't get pulled into his crap,you can ask gary19 what will happen,wishes for you to be dead and crap like that,he is a tool who does not care for anything but his agenda,he can never offer any good solutions to anything but his agenda.if he can't have it his way he has to attempt to belittle you on your opinion,that is his way.
June 22, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Keep talking negatively about stuff that has nothing to do with you, Robert
and you do it so well.
All you do is tell us about who YOU are, every time you open your mouth.
And you're doing it to yourself, again.
June 23, 2011
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Pricer... Don't let Whinestein intimidate you ... He has a history ... He doesn't need your personal information.
June 23, 2011
tattooball
621 posts
Once again some one with no knowledge speaks about something he knows nothing about. Here is some spec's of that .53-.54 ball the Mickey hit as you will notice they are between 260 and 300 compression and .53-to .54 cor. these are the new spec's that MLB came up with in 1974, they have not been changed since then and they are still using wood bats with a bbs of 88.9 mph. The balls used prior to 1974 were even less on the cor side of the ball.
June 23, 2011
tattooball
621 posts
Sorry forgot to input the spec's..


Quality Control
A statistically representative sample of each shipment of baseballs is tested to measure Co-Efficient Of Restitution (COR), using Major League Baseball's officially sanctioned testing procedures. Essentially, the COR is an indication of the resiliency of a baseball.

The COR test involves shooting a baseball from an air cannon at a velocity of 85-feet-a-second (25.90-meters-a-second) at a wooden wall from a distance of eight feet (2.43 meters), and measuring the speed with which the ball rebounds off the wall. Major League COR specifications stipulate that a baseball must rebound at 54.6 percent of the initial velocity, plus or minus 3.2 percent.

A baseball must also retain its round shape after being hit 200 times by a 65-pound (29.51 kilograms) force. As proof of its strength, a baseball must distort less than 0.08 of an inch (.20 centimeter) after being compressed between two anvils.



Read more: How baseball is made - material, history, used, parts, dimensions, composition, machine, Raw Materials, The Manufacturing Process of baseball, Quality Control, The Future http://www.madehow.com/Volume-1/Baseball.html#ixzz1Q74OxL2W
June 23, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Stand.
In the end it will be you
One that's done all the things he set out to do.

Stand.
There's a cross for you to bear.
Things to go through if you're going anywhere.

Stand, stand stand.
June 23, 2011
canIjack
Men's 60
322 posts
SLY AND THE FAMILY STONE......FROM THE SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA BAY
June 23, 2011
canIjack
Men's 60
322 posts
And remember "Its a Family affair", Its a Family affair", Keep it civil guys!
June 23, 2011
Mario
Men's 50
381 posts
Why not go back to alloy bats, blue dot 47 core balls and only have 2 divisions. This way the upper level teams would have more teams to play against. I play on a 50 major plus team, OKI Softball, and we have only got to play in 1 tourney so far this year. We have acually tried to get in 2 other tourneys but they would not let us play due to the Major teams did not want to play us. I think if we went back to the good ole days there would be more for everybody. Plus, only home run hitters would hit the home runs. Just a thought.
June 23, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Mario.
How's Big Arms?
Still playing with you guys?
Too bad you're not out here in Northern California.
You could play every weekend somewhere with us
and you'd like the competition, I'm sure.
Blue Dots and alloy bats like the Easton Connection?
Any day, we'd all go back.
June 23, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Ken.
I love Everyday people.
Just like in softball,
different strokes for different folks.
I got a 30 oz Centenarian that's got 100 strokes on it.
That's my new baby and she's hot.

We swung a DeMarini "the one", today.
A 28 oz that's very hot.
I would need a 30 as it swings light but the bat is hot
right out of the wrapper.
June 23, 2011
stick8
1318 posts
Perly allow me to address your points:
I belief people still play defense. There are HR limits in AA/AAA and you are forced to hit it down.
I agree

Also, I'd like to know how many Major and Major + games the HR limits are not reached? A lot I'd guess. Check it out the next tournament you play.

As on who plays 50 major plus I can personally tell you that in 95% of our games we reach our home run limit.

Defense has never been equal to offense in slowpitch softball. NEVER !!!!!!

I disagree. Yes offense is big, no question. Your best teams are ones who perform well at both offense and defense. There's a saying "offense wins you games, defense wins you championships"

I'd love to go back to no time limits and no run limits but the organizations don't want that so it won't happen. It doesn't matter what equipment we use.

I agree. That would be nice.

No home run limits, those days are gone, look at how the young guys game is structured. More D/E teams than ever. Where I live, in the Florida Panhandle, when we played unlimited HR's one or two sponsor's had all the big HR hitters and everybody else played for 3rd. Not good for softball.

That's why you have separate divisions. The problem with todays teams in the mens division is not many teams/players want to move up to ther level where they should be at. Approximately 38 teams at the B worlds for USSSA. Approx 200 for D and E. I refuse to believe that some of those teams/players in D can't compete in B.

I'm in favor of the pitchers wearing protective equipment even if we change the bat/ball combination. Guys at all levels are bigger and stronger and with HR limits the middle is open.

That's solely up to and should only be up to the pitcher. It should never be mandated.
June 23, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Stick.
How you doin?
I like a number of your points not least of which is
it's defense that wins championships.
When teams are even or close at the plate as what happens
when the best teams show up
it's defense that makes the difference
lead by the caliber of the guy on the mound.
Pitcher's can be rated just like hitters
and the best teams have the toughest guys to hit
on the mound.
You know how good Mark Huber is
and Mickey Hughes and controversial Donny
led his Northwest Legends to 2 victories over the old Mavericks
in Reno a couple of weeks ago.

It's easily the most overlooked aspect of senior ball
by the players who play the game
just how much influence a very good pitcher can have
over the outcome of a slow pitch game.
June 23, 2011
Mario
Men's 50
381 posts
Big Arm is still playing with us. He's still Big Arm if you know what I mean. I'd love to play in California, I'd even travel there, but can't get everyone else to go.
June 23, 2011
Mario
Men's 50
381 posts
Stick8, do you still want a 27oz. end loaded Reebok? I have one right now that I was going to send back. If you want it let me know.
June 23, 2011
Mario
Men's 50
381 posts
Einstein, you hit hte nail right on the head, just like Slater used to do when pitched for the Smyth Sox and all the other teams he pitched for. He always made you hit his pitch.
June 24, 2011
southernson
261 posts
Appreciate and respect the comments in the thread, I think Pricer is right in several respects, but there's nothing wrong with good technology as well. Yes, it's a hitter's game, hence the keywords slow pitch, and yes I love to see both the defense and hitting aspects of a team that's playing well.

Even with the Senior bats, what really provides the opportunity to make batting competitive are the height, angles, and depth of delivery that a pitcher can utilize according to the rules.

You ever notice the difference in a ball game when the umpire truly allows the pitcher to throw 12 foot of arc?
It doesn't happen often, but when it does, defense enters back into the game. The big guys hit em out still, but they hit a lot more balls where the defense has a chance to make a play too.

Ever wanna really know where 12 feet is....start at the bottom of the fence and count 48 chain links up. That's 144 inches or 12 feet. At best most games you see 9-10 foot maximum, yeah, it's like T-Ball sometimes. So the remedy is screens? Helmets? Hockey Masks? That's not the solution....We've always only been 12 feet from returning the game to what it should be on the defensive side. Only 12 feet away...

And on the offensive side....what bufoon who never put a pair of cleats on in their life came up with the idea to make home runs outs...I mean really, an out?

Imagine teaching our kids that philosophy, now Jimmie, you did the best you could possibly do with that test, but we can't give everyone an A, so because you had 5 A's in a row, we have to make this next one an F.
Hell, the PTA meeting that week would have to be at the new Texas stadium.

But in the big national type tournaments, the rules have either been thrown out the window or bastardized to where the game is rarely recognizable. Don't score more than 5 in an inning, you have to stop that. Don't get hot and have your team hit too many home runs, you have to stop that and stop it now, we'll call you out if you do that one more time.

And yeah, quit throwing that ball so high so everybody in the park can't hit hit it out. They paid more than $200 for those bats, so just put your Hockey Mask on and pitch, and our tournament umps will tell you where 12 feet is....it's about 3 feet lower than the rule book says.

Ah, the rule book, if it ever returns to the diamond, so will the game we all grew up, both offensively and defensively.





June 24, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
Mario-I've been saying the same thing-what I call it a measured step back to alloy bats and a 47 COR ball. Still would be plenty of offense but would take the 'edge' off it a bit. The home run hitters would still hit 'em out, line drives would still sizzle through the infield, but the massive sweet spot would be cut down and we might have to learn to hit with a smaller spot again. I admit it, I'm spoiled rotten by these bats. But, I guarantee the game would go on and prosper, because we love the game. I would even bet Einstein wouldn't quit playing!!! :-) Look at the college world series--they cut the bats back and there aren't any 23-9 games going on now. And the stands are packed.
June 24, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Sounds good Mark
Good 47 x 525 balls and good metal bats
would work out fine.
It was when the self invented ball police
started driving the caliber of balls down
that the real juice to ignite better, better
and better bats was produced.
Give us a good/lively bat and ball
and we're red' to go.
But I don't mind the composites either.
American ingenuity and competition in the market place produced 'em.
Nothing wrong with that is there?

As I remember, DeMarini had to sue to keep
his double walls from being banned because some of the same ball/bat police marketers back then
we're getting passed by and they tried to slow
the "new boy" in town.
Business as usual in a competitive arena,
good, bad and indifferent.
June 24, 2011
stick8
1318 posts
Einstein all is well, thanks for asking!! Hope all is well with you and yours. We (OKI Players) have only played one tournament thus far in Indianapolis back in early May. For the first time in 30+ years I'm not playing with the kids just so I could focus on 50+. I've had several offers but I hate to commit and tell them I have to miss important NIT's because of a 50+ event. I've been doing a TON of umpiring on the weekends so I'm really looking forward to Dalton. Will we see you, George and the others there?
June 24, 2011
stick8
1318 posts
Mario, yes absolutely but I'd prefer the balanced version if it's available. If you could save it until we meet up in Dalton that would be great. I'll make sure I bring the cash for you. Let me know if that's OK.
It's been a while, I was beginning to wonder if our team was ever going to play again?
June 24, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
Stick8-good luck in Dalton. I was going to go with Greco Hitmen, but we couldn't get enough guys. It would have been fun to play with DD and the guys instead of against them for once.And, it would have been nice to meet you, too.
June 25, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
stick, defense does not have to be played, or at least not as much of it when all you have to do is give up 5 runs and then you get to go hit again. No "earning your ups" anymore.
June 26, 2011
crusher
Men's 70
403 posts
OK OK Enough.

The ones afraid of the Ultra II should not be playing against one and probably should not be playing when the sun goes down, ONLY ONLY play in the daylight. And try to find a single wall or wood bat league.

The others are allowed to play at night and against the composit bats, and yes even in tournament play where most teams actually play good defense (well those that win do). Seems like more errors are made on No Doubters than on hard hit balls.
June 26, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
well crusher you guys should of come down to georgetown and played in the NSA event held down here.ball(52-275 AD starr) traveled well(when we were not hitting into a 20 mph wind),seen quite a few hrs and some out into the 350'+ range easily,also some line drive type,so i guess this ball can be hit out and we played all tourney long without no major injures by batted balls.oh we were using our senior bats.oh by the way this was done by mostly AAA teams in the 50-60yr old range,not your M,M+ guys.

ok to answer your question,it is not being afraid but having some common sense.when a ball is hit so hard that you CANNOT move to field it,what is the sense there,just a major injury/killing to be had.
crusher,playing at night with the hot bat/ball combo is not a recommended idea either,as we see not as good as we did in our younger days,notice how we don't play as many games at nite for tourney's,with the assoc's now,seniors complained about it and the assoc stopped having many play at night unless it had to be done.



June 26, 2011
crusher
Men's 70
403 posts
Sounds like the new ball is going to be just fine. Thanks for the report.
Hope you guys did good.
June 26, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
crusher ball was good enough and did fly well,the only prol was with the guy who ran the tourney.no water in the dugouts(with 95 degree temps),no field prep,and rules were a little quirky.if you wanted water he did have a tent set up to go get a drink.
June 27, 2011
stick8
1318 posts
Gary19, sadly your correct in the context you describe. As long as your team scores 5 runs an inning the lack of playing defense will not hurt.
June 27, 2011
stick8
1318 posts
Webbie one of thse tournaments we'll hook up.
June 28, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Even if you don't score all 5, the lack of defense still does not hurt you as much as it should. This is where it is obvious that defense is not valued as much as it used to be.
June 28, 2011
stick8
1318 posts
True in a certain sense Gary. If your team scores 5 in every inning and waves at every ball hit at them while on D the worst that can happen is a tie going into the open inning.
June 28, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Agreed, but just NOT how the game is supposed to be played. NO reason for it, whatsoever.
June 28, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Gary.
The 5 runs goes to equalize the difference between teams
so one team doesn't take out the other team with one good inning.
It actually works out better than it sounds and better than I thought it would.
And defense, Gary is always important and IS the determining factor in all championships
between teams of equal hitting ability.
The better the defense, the more likely to win still prevails.
June 28, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
the 5 run does not equalize things,only good till the open inning when the better team 90% of the time wins.it also prolongs games that should of ended a lot sooner,that is why we have time limits and short inning games now.b/c of this 5 run inning it throws most tourney schedules off.
June 28, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
I am sure it does a helluva lot more equalizing than having 7 open innings. Anything can happen in just one innings, whereas 7 innings would do a much better job of determining the better team.
June 28, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
I believe the 5 runs per inning are not for equalization, but to guarantee teams they will play complete games, which will insure more teams entering tourneys. Which is another rule, which makes no sense to me. The product you sell should be the competitive atmosphere in your associations & tourneys. This sounds more like t-ball. Everyone gets to participate! Another way for associations not to have to police the divisions, a problem all of the have had since they created a D & E division of play. Place teams in divisions they belong and eliminate the 5 run rule and softball will be softball again. Until then, when I call your name, come up and get your participation trophy.
June 28, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
yeah guess that is true on that,just saying the 5 run inning thing is a falsehood,per say.
June 28, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Whatever the reason is, it is absurd.
June 28, 2011
Mario
Men's 50
381 posts
Stick8 - If you want a balanced 28oz, you can order it yourself from softball revolution.com. Use the promo code DMFS. The one I have here is a end load.
June 29, 2011
stick8
1318 posts
Thanks Mario. Some friends I hit with have both versions so I'm going to swing them again this week and see which one I prefer. In the interim if you can sell the one you have feel free to do so.
June 29, 2011
stick8
1318 posts
Gary19 you are correct. The rule that really gets me is when we, a 50 major plus team, play a major team we give them 5 extra runs or they get to use an 11th fielder. I accept it because that's just the way it is but they don't do that in mens ball, why should senior ball be any different?
June 29, 2011
stick8
1318 posts
Pricer good to see you back playing again!! It sure looked to me like the old Fishy pitching hasn't lost a beat. Welcome to senior softball where most of the rules we all played by before are now considerably altered.
June 29, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Stick, it was great to see you as well as all my old teammates and foes. Game has changed, but not sure it's for the good. Can we do some aluminum bat tourneys on the national level? I think with an associations support and advertising it would be accepted fairly well. You still a SSUSA director?
June 29, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
stick even in the younger div they give runs to different level teams if they play each other,aka E plays D etc.......maybe in the senior div we should do away with the 5 run innings if the teams are in the same div and age bracket,and only use the 5 run per inning with an open with teams from different div's or age brackets,maybe that could be the equalizer.

June 29, 2011
stick8
1318 posts
Mad Dog I've never heard of that anywhere. I rememeber starting out in C and when we played the B, A, AA and major teams we didn't get any runs or any other favors. All we got were a-- whoopings and lessons on how to play the game but we always yearned to play the upper level teams. As I see it these days many teams and players appear to do everything they can to avoid playing up.
June 29, 2011
stick8
1318 posts
Fishy you may have hit on something with aluminum bats. Last week Tony D told me that starting next year the new bats coming out that USSSA will approve are supposed to be tamper proof. Don't know how it's made or what materials are gused but according to him the talk is with these bats the game will be remarkably different. Similar to what the NCAA did with their bats.
Although I guess i'm listed as a director I'm really not. George Cline pretty much does that role. All i do is try and sell insurance to the senior house leagues. Most already get it thru USSSA or ASA which is the same as what SSUSA has. .
June 29, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
it is mostly for the lower div's where i have seen it done.we play usssa out here for tourney's and have seen it done here,mostly for E teams playing upper,not so much for the higher teams like you have said.
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