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Discussion: why do we need seeding games

Posted Discussion
July 2, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
why do we need seeding games
staff how about ranking teams(in same div's) with points thru out the year(tourney finishes and maybe wins from a 1 game seeding per tourney)like the kid assoc's do,then seed like that.yeah i know some teams will get more points b/c of the area they get to play in,but hey crap happens,this way we wouldn't need seeding games,or just 1 seeding game.anyone else have any idea's on what can be done,if ya don't like playing so many seeding games.
ya can give points for entering and finishes,games won and such.

just wondering thats all.
July 2, 2011
Omar Khayyam
994 posts
In northern California, even with 100 teams, every team is ranked and so tournaments do not have seeding games, just round robins. Of course the rankings are off early in the season with new team, new players, etc., but by now, they are getting pretty accurate and tournament brackets are usually evenly contested, sometimes with the help of some handicap runs.

Problem is, mad dog, that in big national, or even regional tournaments, the rankings aren't consistent. My team has been overwhelmed in Reno, for example, by teams that are supposedly in our range. Only seeding helped even that out.

Don't have a good answer for you. The problem with awarding points for tournament finishes et al, is that some teams don't travel much and are still unknowns with little or no track record. Hard to avoid seeding.

My problem with seeding, as I experience it in Reno, for example, is that sometimes you play a familiar team in a seeding game, and then, out of a dozen teams, you play them again in first game bracket play, and if you or they hit the losers bracket, you play them once again. We don't come all the way to Reno to play a familiar team three times. This could be solved by slightly adjusting the seeding results so you begin bracket play against a team of similar skills, but from a different region. A team I know got badly beat by a team in seeding, played them again in the first bracket game, got stomped again, and then got knocked out of the tournament by getting crushed by them yet again in the losers bracket.
July 2, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
From what I can tell the only purpose of "seeding" games is to give the teams attending a few more games to play since the brackets are often so pathetically small that the associations fear even fewer teams would spend the money to come and play so few games.
July 2, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
omar,if the teams that don't attend a lot of tourneys,they get a low seeding,that is the way usssa does it for the kids.i'm al for a 3 gg with any team losing 2 straight games gets back in the losers bracket.we play a lot of tourneys around here that way with the kids,tho most of those tourneys are 1 dayers.

also with the norcal assoc you end up playing the same teams most all the time once the rankings get settled in,how can that be fun,also a lot of the times they know how the teams will rank out even at the beginning of the year,so still no real diversity.

with the limited number of teams in certain area's 19, there will be small turn out for local qualifiers,nothing can be done till more teams start playing senior ball.hell in texas we have only a few 60 AAA teams(5 or 6) and that is usually our biggest div in tourney's,and still get to play the major teams we have(all 2 of them).can you imagine how many teams per bracket there are in new england,or even you area,there aren't that many,cali and fl are the only states that have many teams.
July 2, 2011
Ho
229 posts
We may not have as many teams in the northeast (Pa,Ny,NJ,MD) or the mid-west (Ohio, Mich, Ind,Ill,Ky)as you do in the west but for some reason the attendance has been high at qualifying tournaments west of Nevada.

There were 57 teams at Glen Burnie; 22 (first year AA/AAA) Dayton; 70 (all AA/AAA) in Barberton/Akron; 31 (AA/AAA) in Shelbyville and it looks like 70+ (AA/AAA) in Columbus. Theses are all qualifiers.

All those tournaments are two-day events with five games min (six games Baraberton/Akron).

I think your problem with low attendance are too many 7-to-12 teams tournaments that keep being held year-after-year; tournaments within 150 miles from each other on the same week and poor promotion.

Teams want to play and they will if you give them a good tournament.
July 2, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
ho you might be getting that many teams total,but what do the div's look like,do you have 8 teams in all the div's.there are 20 div's just from 50-65 AA-M+,so 60 teams could mean just 3 teams per div,that is what i'm getting at,that doesn't sound so appealing especially if you see them all the time.i see you only are going with the 2 lower div,what about the 2 upper div's.did you have to cross over tomplay other age and div's,how many 2-3 team div's were there,this is what happens all the time from i have seen.

personally i get tired of traveling to tourney's that only have 5 teams and they are always the same teams,but that is what happens down here in our area.we went to reno the 1st of june and had 23 teams in our div,and 90% of those teams came from cali.it was a pleasure to finally play teams we haven't played 2-4 times already this year.
July 2, 2011
Ho
229 posts
I may get bumped off because everytime I talk about the teams entered in our tournament it is deleted. Will try again

Barberton/Akron tournament:

75's/80's - 9; 70's AA - 7; 70's AAA - 10; 65's AA 6; 65's AAA - 6; ^0's AA - 8; 60's AAA - 10; 55's AAA - 6; 50's AA-4; AAA - 4.

The other tournaments (especially Glen Burnie, Shelbyville and Columbus) are also balanced pretty good.
July 2, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
well it sounds ok with that distribution,but i bet you end up seeing each other every tourney.why no upper div teams?
July 2, 2011
Ho
229 posts
Mad Dog:

Sorry, didn't answer all your questions. Except for Glen Burnie, all the tournaments I mentioned are only AA and AAA. Seems when the majors are invited, a lot of the AAA's stay home.

We do not have cross-over division games, only play in your own age group. We do not have cross-over rating games, AA's only play AA's and AAA's only play AAA's.

We play round robin, where you will play six different teams all in your age group and ratings group.

That formay has its advantages and didadvantages, but right now the teams seem to like it. We had teams from 13 states and Ontario Canada. Even had 75's from Kansas, Minnesota and Wisconsin. Majority were from Ohio (23) Canada (11) and Michigan (12). The rest were within 300-to-400 miles.
July 2, 2011
Ho
229 posts
That stands to figure you will see a lot of the same teams but you may not be playing them all.

Also there are a lot of teams who are attending Columbus who were not at our tournamenet and the same with the Dayton, Shelbyville and Glen Burnie tournaments.

But even seeing the same team at these tournaments and playing them once (at that tournament) isn't as bad as playing them three times in the same rtournament.

July 2, 2011
garyheifner
358 posts
Some of the talk on this site has been the reduction in total teams. I don't care how it is done, but don't drop the 5 games minimun. I am not, nor is my 65 team traveling 100s/1000s of miles and $$$ with the possibility of playing only 3 or 4 games total. It would be totally unfair to teams with 14 or 15 guys and only 3/4 games to play everybody. With at least 2 prelim games, you can get everyone in the action and take it from there. The current 2 prelims and a team that loses their 1st 2 championship games going to a low sub bracket is fine to me. I hated the old USSSA days where you could be 2 losses and done. My point is make sure everyone gets to play a lot of softball at each event!
July 3, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Gary, one problem is the "seeding" games have little meaning. Does it mean that much to your team to travel to play 3 basically exhibition games before the real games?
July 3, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
ho, i do like the round robin format,that makes all the games important.i understand about lower teams bailing b/c M or M+ teams showing,but if you do play them it can show you where you stand in your div.when i played in cali in 50 div,we used to play the seacrest mavericks all the time(50 M+)we were 50 AAA/M when we played them.it was good practice for us,and we did win our share against them,tho most of the time they didn't have their full roster there,but enough to show us where we stood.

gary 5 game min makes for harder scheduling of games to be able to have an only 2 day tourney.most of the teams don't want to play more than 3-4 games a day max.if you get put into the losers bracket quickly you can play at least 5 maybe 6-7 games in a day.i know some don't care,but there are lot of teams that don't want that....personally i don't care as i play with the kids a lot in 1 day tourney's and to win your gonna play 5 games min...
July 3, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Seeding or seating games are used in SSUSA
to guarantee 5 games to teams that make big investments
in travel accommodations.
In a small tournament which is what we have experienced mostly
since I have been a senior (5, 6, 7, 8 teams)
the seeding games mean virtually nothing.
Maybe an extra game
which for many guys makes it a great work out for the weekend.
We ran the table a couple of times from having gone
0 for 2 in the seeding games.
The real tournament begins with double elimination.
July 3, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
And still as in the past
some players can't make Friday games
and come in on Saturday when double elimination often begins
making seeding games even more irrelevant to the standings.
July 3, 2011
Ho
229 posts
Mad Dog/Einstein:

You two seem to be the most knowledgeable about tournaments, so give me your input.

The problem we have with our two-day six games (per team) round robin tournament, is if a team is 0-4 early on the second day, sometimes they will pack it in and start the drive home. This leaves two other teams without an opponent and may lead to a problem in the final standings.

Have either of you played in or looked into a triple-elimination or quadruple-elimination (over three days) tournament?
We would have eight-to-ten teams in the brackets.

Would like your input.

Thanks
July 3, 2011
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Mad Dog and others, You've opened up an old sore. Two years ago, at The SPA National in Dalton, our team went 3-0 (with some help from weak defending) and felt pretty good about our chances for the #1 seed. Instead, Ridge Hooks moved us up a division. Any idea how I (we) feel about seeding games now? Mel
July 3, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
HO,THAT SI A PROL WITH ROUND ROBIN TYPE TOURNEY'S,SOME TEAM WILL GET 3 OR 4 IN AND SEE THEY DON'T HAVE A CHANCE AND DECIDE TO GET AN EARLY START HOME.I HAVE PLAYED IN THE 3GG TYPE TOURNEYS,AND WHAT HAPPENS IS IF A TEAM LOOSES 2 GAMES IN A ROW THEY GET TO STAY BY MOVING TO PLAY A THIRD GAME IN THE LOSERS BRACKET.I HAVE SEEN TEAMS GO A LONG WAY WITH THOSE TYPE TOURNEYS,AS THEY ALL OF A SUDDEN COME ALIVE.

ONE THING I DON'T LIKE,IS A TEAM PLAYING WITHOUT 2-4 OF THEIR REGULARS IN THE SEEDING GAMES AND HAVE THEN THEM THERE FOR ELIM ROUND.TO ME THAT IS SAVING THEM,IF THEY ARE PRESENT,AND DON'T PLAY,THEN YES AS THEY ARE PRESENT.ITS THE TEAMS WHO DECIDE TO NOT BRING THEM IN FOR SEEDING GAMES FOR SOME REASON AND BRING THEM ONLY IN FOR ELIM ROUNDS,I SAY YOU PLAY WITH WHO IS PRESENT FOR SEEDING GAMES.

YEAH I REMEMBER THAT HAPPENING LEMONS.

SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS BUT IS WAS 3 SENTENCES IN BEFORE I NOTICE,OH WELL IT IS EASIER TO READ.
July 3, 2011
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
395 posts
I like the seeding games as it gives teams who don't play a lot of tournaments, an opportunity to get warmed up. A 2-game elimination round would be frustrating if you got ko'd early.
July 5, 2011
TOMAR77
Men's 55
198 posts
WE use the seeding games to :
1. Get acclimated to the time element of getting there. Luckily we are in so. cal. so not a major time prob.
2. With 5 games we get to play the game we love even if it is "Just Exercise"! Which by the way is as good as any other reason to play.
3. Hopefully we are "ALL" preparing for the Games that COUNT!
4. DARN IT ! IT'S JUST, DOG GONE FUN TO PLAY BALL !
Tomar
July 5, 2011
Dale
Men's 50
76 posts
I've contended for years (to all associations) that if seeding games are to be played, then they should mean something.
I've suggested to SPA and SSUSA that the higher seed should be home team (or have that option)throughout the double elimination phase of the tournament.
From my experience home team is especially advantageous as the tournament progresses.
This suggestion, to date, has fallen on deaf ears.
July 5, 2011
Omar Khayyam
994 posts
Tomar77, you make a good point about getting acclimated to a tournament. Might be at a different elevation...humid...windy, etc. and seeding helps getting adjusted.

I think Dale has a great idea about making the top seed home team. This would help eliminate the problem of sandbagging in seeding rounds.
July 6, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
tomar77,reason #2With 5 games we get to play the game we love even if it is "Just Exercise"! Which by the way is as good as any other reason to play.
then why the need for the hot bat/ball combo we have,just asking........
July 6, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Lively bats and balls are the ONLY way to play our game.
Anything else is ignorance and self interest as has been demonstrated prolifically on this site
by a very small band of hypocrites, nay-sayers and acolytes.
Same old story;
same old, SAD song.
July 6, 2011
Mr. Manassas
226 posts
I think that seeding games are great! It gives teams time to let all their players state their case for starting in the DE part of the tournament as well as giving you time to get acclimated to the surroundings. I do think some consideration needs to be given to the schedule in the DE tournament so that some teams are not playing too many games in a single day.
July 6, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
mr manassas,i don't mind maybe 2 seeding games,but i don't think we need anymore.i also feel if we have to play seeding games,the teams players need to be present for them at least(they don't have to play,but be present) and not be bringing in the starters only when DE starts,as some teams i have seen do.

well again the one trick pony has risen in his attempt to try and get a thread cancelled with his drivel.there are more than one assoc so more than 1 way to play,guess that escapes his blindness.i have asked where are the hypocrites here as all have said they will play by any rules set forth,except the biggest crier of all.

but hey i guess we are ignorant and hypocritical ones,because he says so,not him,just because he doesn't care if someone is killed or put into a physical state that they can no longer care for themselves,and their family has to do it.he is the only right one...yeah right go on thinking that.
July 6, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
We see no problem linking you to your message Robert
about "kinder, gentler softball" while you continue to play, willfully endangering yourself
and others, our "lethal" game.
You're a phony and an ignorant man
who deserves to go down with his feeble and self serving argument.
Lively bats and balls are a MUST.

July 6, 2011
dj
32 posts
mad dog: joe was responding to the thread, unless I missed something you brought up balls and bats,
dj
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