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Discussion: When did it Change?

Posted Discussion
July 18, 2011
Tater50
336 posts
When did it Change?
Use to be if you picked up one Major + player you moved up to Major +. When you won a National you automatically moved up; now I notice that a team can win a National, then break down their team to X amount (the number I am not sure of) of players & stay @ the present class; when did this happen & why?

Tater50

PS I think it was 04 when I had JAH Masters that I had to have the "same" roster for "ALL" associations; when did this rule change?
Aug. 11, 2011
Tater50
336 posts
SSUSA Staff: can you help me out here w/this question?

Tater50
Aug. 11, 2011
Duke
Men's 60
720 posts
Tater50,

I cannot give you the reasons as to why. I do know this was being allowed up North and became a verbal rule that many teams know.

I can tell you that the number is no more than 5. This may be the last season, that this is in effect. There is no written rule regarding this situation. The staff up North knows of this problem, and almost fixed it last year, but it was too late to do anything since teams had already formed. They are leaving it for next season. I can only guess that it will be a rule next season and the number will be 2-3, but should be 2.

The reason that this needs to be fixed, is that in the larger 3 day tournaments, the teams that usually make it to Sunday and/or win the tournament are those with all of the impact players on their squad playing down. No one has abused any rule, because there is none written at this time. Just need to change it to 2, so that the other teams playing it more on the straight side, have a chance to win at their level.

Once it is changed to 2, that will fix the stacking of teams from the level above. It will give more teams a fairer and equal chance to win. If anyone is wondering, approximately 78% of the time, these teams with 5 impact players win and/or make it to Sunday in the larger tournaments. SSUSA is aware of this, and hopefully, will address this in October, so teams can plan accordingly. If you make it 2 and a team has 3 or more impact players, then they are automatically moved up. That is what the rule should state.

JMHO.

Andy Smith,
60 Major Plus/55 Major
Aug. 12, 2011
Tater50
336 posts
Duke: just wondering, cause I have seen many teams that win & never move up. Did not know the reason.

Some teams have stayed in the same class for many years & never moved up.

Tater50
Aug. 12, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
andy that is the reason i say rate a whole team for at least a year when they win a tourney that moves them up,that way no one can drop down to stack a team.as i have said the kids do it by the bump system,kind of what you have suggested,let the lower team only pick up so many and let it be.that way if a team does break up,the players can have a place to go and play,without fear of making the team have to play up,unless they pick up to many of the upper guys.
Aug. 12, 2011
perly
88 posts
Tater50

Big John, some teams are very good at never moving up. Travel Lodge won many National's in the 50 Major Division and for some reason never moved up. We played them numerous times throughout the years and they always had 8/9 of the same guys, won consistently and stayed Major.

One of our buddies, Bill Gore, has also managed to stay Major even though his teams have won numerous Nationals.

Some teams can really play the system or the system doesn't really work the same for everybody.

Not bashing TL or Bill, just two examples of really good teams that somehow avoided being moved up.
Aug. 12, 2011
Duke
Men's 60
720 posts
Tater50

For approximately 90% of the teams, they do not get moved up, because of the reasons that I stated above. For the other approximate 10% teams, well you really do not want to know all of it. I can tell you stories that will just get you upset and not know why this is happening.

There are teams that win multiple big tournaments and never get bumped. I got several teams bumped up one year, by stating the facts on the message board. There are teams that are "favorites" and just never get bumped up. Just the way it is, there is good and bad in every business.

Speaking of business, $$$$ is what can determine some team's outcome. This next example should just tick you off and the team will remain unmentioned. There was a team that played about 12-15 tournaments with SSUSA every year. They got bumped up. They appealed to no avail. They finally just said move us back down, or we are not going to play in your organization any longer. SSUSA held their ground, for at least 6 months and so did the team in question. That team played for 6 months in other organizations at the lower level. After 6 months went by, they were moved back down, and they are playing alot of SSUSA tournaments again.

In conclusion, there are many other reasons, that I have witnessed in person, but I think you got the idea. Perly hit it on the nose, by saying that the system does not work the same for everybody. That is all I really care to say about this subject. Stack your team and do not worry about the system. LOL!

Andy Smith,
60 Major Plus/55 Major
Aug. 13, 2011
leftyfalcon
Men's 65
158 posts
If one would go back 10 years the game changed in every area. This didn't happen over night. So for I'm still playing so I guess I'll live with it or I'll be to old to care what happens.
Aug. 13, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
i tell ya our story,we started a new team in 2001,AA as we could back then.we played till july of 02 in the AA div.we won a couple of little tourney's not sanction by any assoc.we finally won a qualifier in mid july.this was the first year of the westerns in sunnyvale,ca in mid august that year.we had already sent our money an had entered.come the first of aug we get a letter saying we had been bumped to AAA,it was b/c of a letter from another team who had been playing AAA all year.they said that our team should be the AAA and theirs should be AA.lo and behold we both got switched.well we tried to ask why,but to no avail could we get a legit answer.we wanted to say hell with the westerns but we said the hell with and went anyways.there were no other qualifier's for us to qualify any other players.we went and guess what we won,we went to vegas and won the national game,and came close to winning it all,finished second at the worlds.yes our story did finish out like a fairytale,but guess what,that other team dropped b/c they were scared to play AAA and went to AA so they could win a world title,way to sand bag guys.well by the 1st of nov we ended up being rated major,so from AA-M in less than a year,we didn't have the right pull to stay at AA to see if we could win there first,but we siad the hell with it.oh that other team had set their roster in january,and didn't use it the rest of the year till worlds,and at the same qualifier we won the AA they sandbag and went 1-4 in the AAA side,didn't use any of their starting pitchers in any of the games,and just let teams beat them,just so they could drop down to win a world tourney.

oh well long winded sorry.....
Aug. 13, 2011
17Black
Men's 50
220 posts
Isn't this why there are home run limits in every division and five runs max per inning at most tournaments?

If you win a tournament playing by the equalization rules, why should a good team get bumped up when they maybe can't compete with homers consistently when they do get bumped up???.

There is a huge bump UP for most AA teams to AAA, and probably AAA to major, maybe not as noticable higher up, but that's the rule you play during the game. If you win a national tournament playing by the rule, you have to go higher????

ESPECIALLY if you go over the home run limit and it's an out--------which I'm also not in favor of for hitting a fair ball--that's another topic------

You should at least get awarded first base as a walk for hitting a fair ball---especially if you play in a lower class and the wind is blowing out-----I think we had a guy in Vegas a couple of years ago hit his first home run ever---------EVER------including little league I think, and he's out because we were at the limit already. AT least let the guy stand on 1st base.

But I guess that's why we have different associations
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