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Discussion: Waivers

Posted Discussion
July 22, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Waivers
Did anyone have to sign waivers before senior ball? Why is it nessesary to sign waviers? If you refuse, can you still pitch? Does this throw up a red flag with anyone else in regards to, maybe we have issues here? I'm disapointed mainly in the people head that up these associations that know there's problems, but just have the folks sign waivers and we're ok. What other sports or associations are having players sign waivers? Sign the waiver please, because this might be dangerous? JMO
July 22, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
non that i know of,actually ssusa is the only softball assoc to say that,mmmm wonder why.
July 22, 2011
Mario
Men's 50
367 posts
If you play in an adult ice hockey league they have you sign a waiver as well.
July 22, 2011
Omar Khayyam
984 posts
Pricer, waivers are necessary because SSUSA thinks the current hot bat/ball combo they allow is too dangerous for a pitcher who is closer to the batter. Their solution is to force the pitcher to wear protection (helmet plus shin guards) or sign a waiver that he is taking the risk on his own. If the pitcher does neither, the umpire is not supposed to let him pitch (not vigorously enforced, though).

Folks I've talked with think that the waiver provides very little legal protection for SSUSA, since by requiring it they concede that the sport has become overly dangerous (they didn't require it in the past with less hot conditions). A sharp lawyer representing a pitcher who is seriously injured or killed will find many ways around the waiver, in my opinion and that of those legal and insurance guys I've talked to.

My prediction: protection for the pitcher will not stop here. Look for a mandated chest protector, softer ball, banning composites, a mandated screen, or a combination of the above. It would bankrupt SSUSA if a pitcher were to be seriously hit and then sue. It is too much of a risk.

I also think if conditions change that it will make little difference to SSUSA participation. Threats of quitting, never playing, forming new associations, self-hosted tournaments, etc. will go nowhere. Such alternatives would be even more at risk of a lawsuit since they will be contrasted with SSUSA's more stringent protections. Guys who love softball will keep playing in SSUSA because they offer quality tournaments.

A pitcher in the "alternative" association can look you in the eye and swear that he would never sue if injured by a pitch. His impoverished widow might have a different opinion!
July 23, 2011
brian warner
Men's 55
48 posts
I try to stay out of these rants that I see on here about the bat and ball thing. But this getting way out of hand. My team the KC Barons played in the Midwest Championships a couple weeks ago. And the balls they used sat out in the sun in about 93-98 degree temps. all day. They were mush, and everone was saying the same thing. That balls were terrible, not once did I hear anybody say THANK GOD they were like that. For the 5 or 6 guys who get on here and whine about the bats and balls, go play ASA. From what I understand they don't allow these killers bats. By the way the balls were 44-375 Trumps if I remember right.
July 23, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Tell 'em Brian.
Their 15 minutes of fame is just about up.
They represent the tiniest, did I say tiniest,
portion of the whole of us who are pushing
another agenda regarding the market place and who get's to eat more sushi.
They been obvious from the jump when you listen to them
talk.
There's nothing there but a little man/men behind a curtain
trying to convince us how immoral, inconsiderate, unaware
and insecure we are.
Poppy-cock,
Pure rubbish.
Ignorant.
Wrong.




July 23, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Just wondering. Who is pushing for the time limits, run limits, home run limits, PPRs, halos, screens, and goalie equipment that the special bats create?
July 23, 2011
RIK56
Men's 50
120 posts
I was not able to make the kansas city tournment but my team played in it and brian is right all i heard from my teamates was that the ball was horrible,lots of low scores,from what i understand they were not trump mct balls.
July 23, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
That's always the case, RIK,
always.
No one who plays our game wants/likes
to play with compromised bats/balls.
No one.
That there is a movement at all to displace
our equipment at all is almost amazing
but again, it's about money and the marketplace
just like everything else is in our society
right now, anyhow, for better and worse.

Playing with a lively bat/ball combo
is fun and how the most players
not just the elite ones,
can have the most fun.
Remember, our game is fundamentally about hitting
and not fielding as I am reminded often
and the satisfaction of putting enough pace on the ball to hit it over a fence, through a gap,
by an infielder or through a hole
is absolutely essential.
July 23, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
OK.
You been talking about the waivers, insurance and safety and NOTHING has happened with any regularity to justify yours or anyone's concerns.
The sky hasn't fallen and know we know
NEVER WILL.

It's a ruse and miss direction
to gain control of us and our market.
It's not about safety
or the integrity of the game
or declining numbers.
These are all just fodder for the ignorant
and self interested of our group
regardless of what intellectual acuity,
history or bank accounts they might possess.
July 24, 2011
Omar Khayyam
984 posts
einstein claims NOTHING has happened. I guess I was imagining that SSUSA mandated pitcher protection equipment or signing a waiver. Guess they don't really have any concerns; they're just trying to tick off pitchers. When a major association mandates protection, just in the last two years, SOMETHING has happened. I wish I had einstein's confidence, but I worry about the stats that pitcher55 out of Ridgecrest, CA had on another thread where he stated 10 pitchers were killed since 2002. Any documentation for that?
July 24, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
brian,rik..most likely that was the trump stote,that ball when subjected to heat(left out in it) will sock up,been there done that.the 52 ball will not change b/c of heat.i play with it in league here in tyler ,tx and we have had 100 degree temps since the end of may.there is no prol hitting this ball in this heat,seen plenty of them clear the fence.i also played in a NSA senior tourney back the end of june and they used this 52 ball with our senior bats,we had no prol hitting balls out(well except against the wind of 20 mph).i will say the stote is very temp dependent,as in reno(for rocking reno) with it not getting over 70 degrees it was flying.AD starr makes a very good ball(better than the stote) and even they say keep the 44-375 ball out of the heat.

as for the ins claim,the park i play at had 5 claims against them last year b/c of pitchers getting hit with the 44 ball and requiring major surgery,this year nothing.i have yet to see anyone needing any medical attention by being hit with the 52 ball,but have lost our SS(broken thumb) and seen others have to leave games b/c of the 44 ball getting them
July 24, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Lively bats and balls are the only way our game is enjoyable enough
to want to invest and participate.
This is fundamental and irrefutable.
Anything else is ignorance and self interest screaming at us.
Robert?
July 24, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
WHO IS THIS SELF INTEREST,AND WHO IS GETTING THIS MONEY THEY ARE TO BE GETTING,ITS NOT ME I CAN TELL YOU THAT.SO MAYBE ITS YOUR SELF IGNORANCE THAT IS SHOWING.SO QUIT BEING A SELF INDULGENT LITTLE BOY AND THINK ABOUT THE SAFETY OF YOUR FELLOW SOFTBALLERS,OR DO YOU HAVE ENOUGH COMPASSION TO EVEN CARE ABOUT THEM....
July 24, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Brian you are in step with Joey God save your soul.
Those on my side want to make the game safer tell me what's wrong with that?
July 24, 2011
titanhd
Men's 50
324 posts
Gary, I played 50 Major at the Midwest as well and Brian is correct the Stote ball was mush in the heat.
I don't know that he is on anyone's "side". I think that he was just making a statement to a fact. No one that I spoke with was happy with the balls.I heard the complaints and felt the same way about the ball. Worst ball I have ever experienced in Senior play. That being said. Everyone played with the same ball so we adjust and play on.
btw. I want a safe game too!Nothing wrong with that.
July 24, 2011
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
Waivers are just a way for the organization to CYA because of what our country has become where everyone's first thought is to sue someone else. Money hungry lawyers just waiting to take someome to court.

Haven't seen any pitchers get hurt this year. With or without equipment. I've seen the 20-40 year old kids wearing face masks and shin guards both pitching and in the field in both USSSA and ASA. It ain't mandated there and waivers aren't needed. Just proves to me that you can get hurt no matter what level you play or what equipment you use. Injury is inherent with sport.

Run limits, home run limits and run limits are pushed by the organizations. Interested in speeding up the game. Hell, we have all those rules in our local leagues just for that very reason.
July 24, 2011
ffdonnie
Men's 50
90 posts
Pricer I guess you are just referring to the pitchers waiver. But every league and utrip tourny I play in has you sign some sort of waiver, you probably do too. No big deal right? Like AI said it's an attempt to combat the lowest form of life, the lawyers.
July 25, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Waivers seldom mean legally the paper they are printed on.
July 25, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Sorry folks! I know why we asked to sign waivers. But was looking for responses regarding when did this start becoming a issue? We play for 25-50 plus years without even having dicussions about anyone safety. Now please sign off so we're not liable. Do you think associations really care more about the players playing or paying?
July 25, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Pricer, it really doesn't matter much what they care about, those waivers most likely don't mean squat.

Not to mention I just cannot understand suing any association for an assumed risk. We ALL know, or should, that we could get hurt playing. Even with the special bats, we ALL know what they can do.

Does anyone actually know of a guy who sued a league, a facility, a municipality, or an association? In 37 years, I don't.
July 25, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Yes, it's happened a couple time at least in Michigan. I believe the two I am referring were both settled out of the courts.
July 25, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
That is just a shame. Don't guys know the risks before they take the field?
July 25, 2011
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
Your right Gary.
It's a shame and has nothing to do with bats or balls. It's a product of what our society has become. Blame sombody else and try to make a quick buck doing it. Goes way beyond the softball field.
July 25, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
You've got that 100% correct!
July 25, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
we had 5 pitchers last year, sue parks and recs for major surgery's they had to have last year in my area because of being blasted.yes there can be risks but when someone says sign a wavier or else,mmm to me thats implying you know your game is way to dangerous that your putting out there.back in the day i in seen guys get blasted but continue in the game,doesn't happen that way now a days with this hot equipment we use.usually now if you get hit,it is to the sideline,if not a ride to the emergency room for medical care.
July 25, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Precisely, Jeff.
We played for years with lively bats/balls
and nothing was said.
I got broken bones from playing D.
Nothing was said.
Now, we can no longer play our game
and we get blamed for it
because we like to have fun.

Safer is not necessarily better
and it's not in the case of a using a bat/ball combo
that is intrinsically dissatisfying, counter intuitive,
will cause more injuries and simply, isn't fun.

July 25, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Joe, please! You are not going to indicate the the batted balls today are coming off the composite bats at the same speed of the best bat/ball combo with aluminum? When do you feel we played with lively bats/balls for years prior to composites?
July 25, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
cause more injuries,we have that now with this hot combo we play with,with the 52 ball there will be less.......get your facts straight,oh thats right you don't deal in facts,just innuendo.
July 25, 2011
stick8
1261 posts
Gary19 you are correct. That being said here in Detroit--and I'm certain Pricer will back me up here--there is a big time ambulance chasing, personal injury attorney, his two sons and one daughter who make a damn good living on cases similar to this. He could take that waiver and dissect it where it would be totally useless in court. I'm not a lawyer but I used to work in an attorneys office and it's amazing how they could brake down a case.
July 25, 2011
frampton
Men's 55
55 posts
I am a California lawyer, and I can tell you that, while it is true that lots of waivers/releases can be broken down or disregarded by courts, that will tend to be in situations where the *field or facility* causes the injury. It's very hard for a property owner to enforce a release when the property owner's negligence causes the injury.

In California anyway, it is the law that a player assumes all known and reasonably knowable risks inherent to the game. That includes even the negligence of a co-participant (such as, for example, a collision during a tag play). It certainly includes the risks that are a part of the game -- being hit by a ball foremost among them. Virtually the only exception to this rule is intentionally-caused injury (liability for which also can't be affected by a waiver or release form). California used to be one of the most plaintiff-friendly states in the country in the area of tort law, so if that's the rule in California, I expect that it's the rule in the vast majority of states.

An insurer of a facility or an organization like the SSUSA may well want a waiver form as an extra protection (or the organization might argue for a lower coverage rate if they get waivers), but chances are that in most states the assumption of risk rules are sufficient. (That also doesn't preclude that someone or some organization might want to settle with an injured person to avoid the hassle of a lawsuit and/or the p.r. hit of stonewalling an injured person.)

July 26, 2011
hayden
Men's 60
21 posts
The few times I've been asked to sign a waiver all that I had to do was sign next to my name on the lineup card. I don't see how this is considered signing a waiver
July 26, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
hayden tell me,i can't see that protecting anyone from being sued.
July 26, 2011
SSUSA Staff
1131 posts
The Pitcher Waiver reference to SSUSA Rulebook 6.17 - PITCHERS MANDATED MINIMUM SAFETY EQUIPMENT (page 48) appears at the bottom of the back side of the Official Game Card. Click on the link below to see the full content of 6.17, the back of the Official Game Card and the WAIVER PROCEDURE.

Pitcher Waiver

July 26, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Is there a reason the infielders are not reqiured to sign this waiver? They realisticly are only a few feet farther away and in some cases even closer to the batter.
July 26, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Why not outfielders and the ump
and the fans and Corky and Fran, too.
Jeff.
You're obvious and leading again.

There's another phenomenal aspect of pitching
any pitcher will tell you.
We get so focused on pitching and following
the balls we tend not to react/see when the batter swings.
This would only be for pitchers, Jeff
and makes them more vulnerable than anyone else
making the waiver make sense.

Also, hitting a ball square as a lot of us
were taught will put the ball right back through
the middle more than to any particular fielder
making the pitcher more vulnerable.

Also, following through on a pitch
tends to allow a pitcher to end up closer
than the rubber with less time to react.

The infielders have dropped back farther than normal due to what we call "Miken speed".

Lastly, greater distance from the batted ball
as with Miken speed infielders provides more time to avoid being hit which some of us
have gotten very good at, I must say.

July 26, 2011
SSUSA Staff
1131 posts
No pitcher is required to sign the waiver. We have a Pitcher's Mandated Safety Equipmenty Rule in place, but the Pitcher may voluntarily decide not to wear the equipment by opting out via waiver. Solely his/her choice: [1] Pitch with equipment; [2] Waiver out of equipment and pitch; or [3] Don't pitch.

Corner infielders (1B and 3B) are generally at least 15' further away, assuming they are playing at or behind the bags, from the batter than the Pitcher (50'), and middle infielders (2B and SS) are generally even further back, so there is no compelling statistical or other need for mandated equipment for them. However, we have NO prohibition against ANY other defensive player wearing protective equipment he/she may believe is appropriate for them personally, so long as it doesn't create a risk of injury to a batter/runner. This, too, is a voluntary player choice.

July 26, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1956 posts
I'm all for personal force fields for all defensive players. But just remember, if you use one you are not allowed to squeeze a hitter, just because you know he can't hurt you. It would also protect runners.
July 26, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
webbie you have it there for the runners,i got it last nov when one of our lefty's got me at first.still have the lump from it.


staff if you feel that the game is that dangerous for the pitcher,why let the hot bat/ball combo continue.the 2 major softball assoc's (ASA,USSSA)have gone to the 52 ball,and they use lesser rated bats then we do.
July 26, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
There you go again Joe. I ask a question that the SSUSA person answers with a very simple & precise response and here you go jumping on your platform writing a War & Peace novel. Please just stop trying to be the spokesperson for the lively bats/balls are essential to our game club. I not sure your doing them any favors.
July 26, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You're not fooling anyone who's paying attention
Jeff.
Think you're slick, don't you.
July 27, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Word for today is "Avoid"!
July 27, 2011
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
mad dog,

ASA and USSSA in NY don't use the 52 ball. USSSA uses the 40 cor gold dot. A piece of junk. ASA uses a 44/375 but use junk bats.
There cetainly isn't a lot of Senior tournaments offered by either of these organizations and there certinly isn't a lot of teams flocking to play in them either.

Wonder why?

Maybe you should start a 52 ball Senior Softball circuit.
I never heard the staff say they thought the game was to dangerous. Just you.
July 27, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
If they don't think it might be too dangerous then why the waivers at all? What would the purpose of them be?

We didn't have them before.
July 27, 2011
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
You answered your own question earlier in the post.
July 27, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
AI33, please take no offense to my question. Did you play competive ball with the wood and aluminum bats? Are you saying the equipment today does not create anymore of a danger to the game than the wood or the aluminum? I personally will not be able change the equipment back to the old aluminum bats. But it will not keep me from indicating the dangers the composite bats have brought into our game. I don't hide the fact I feel there's no place in the game for them and the high schools, little leagues and the NCAA have realized that as well. How many using these bats would not change their minds quickly if their son/daughter or grandchild were hurt or maybe even worse because of the use of them. You have to watch out for what you wish for, cause you might just get it! I hope no one or anyone in their family GET'S IT!
July 27, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
I don't think I did. I know the waivers mean squat, but I don't think the staff does.

You said the staff does not think the game is too dangerous, but their belief that the waivers serve some purpose show otherwise.
July 27, 2011
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
Pricer,
No offense taken what-so-ever.

Yes, I have played since the 70's. Played "A", "Major", in the old APSPL pro league and the old NSPC to name a few. So I've seen it all and played against the best.
I've seen balls hit 400 ft' in the old days. A good aluminum bat with a very good ball is dangerous as well. Many players got hit and hurt in the old days as too.

We have a choice, like it or not in todays world.
Most all of this crap is about our sue first and ask questions later society in which Gary agreed with.
Heck Gary, you told me I was 100% correct.

Pricer, please don't compare a grandchild to an adult. It's not even close.
July 27, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
And you still are.

All I was saying is the staff IS saying the game is dangerous when they put in the waivers. Well, either they think it is dangerous or they just are (ineffectively) trying to protect themselves from the sue-happy people we discussed earlier.
July 27, 2011
SSUSA Staff
1131 posts
SSUSA Staff postings mean precisely what they say. Reading anything more OR less into them is, at best, irresponsible.

July 27, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
AI33, close to what. We're all alive. Don't think for a second that anyone of us are just as important to our children or grandchildren as we are to them. Why does there have to be a comparison? It was meant to imply just what I said. It is equipment in question. We all love our families and would never want to see any one of them in harms way. But the fact is they are just as much in the same boat as we are if that equipment is being used. The organizations I mentioned in an earlier post have already or are in the process of making changes in their equipment allowed to be used.
July 27, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
AI33,go look at ASA and USSSA,for the balls that can be used,and the 52 ball is on the list.the 40 ball is a piece of crap when over 85 degrees(but hard as a rock in cold temps),i know as we have used it out here in texas,they now used the worth hot dot(classic +),which is a 52 ball and doesn't change with the temps.also if you are using a legit usssa ball you will see no specs on the balls,they'll be classified either classic m for the 40 ball,classic + for the 52 ball,that is the only marking for a true usssa ball.now for ASA yes they still use the 44-375 ball,same exact spec as we seniors use,but hey they don't allow the hottest bats around to be used,unlike senior ball,but they added the 52 ball this year as an approved ball for their assoc.
now as far as tourney's they are being held every weekend around here(dallas area)mostly usssa as the kids like the flat pitch for their egos,(guess no diff than senior ballers),also there are some ASA,but usssa is the prevalent assoc here in east texas,so the reason for more usssa tourney's.

pricer i'm with you 100%,if by championing to play a safer game makes me a bad guy,so be it,i don't care.if just one person is saved from the tragedy waiting to happen(with this hot bat/ball combo) then i'll have done my job.and to think all it would take is one little change,a ball........
July 27, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
The point is Jeff,
the equipment has always been "in question"
and was good to very good or we wouldn't play
even then and when we played and it was
'business as usual.'
How come things are different or viewed different now or should be viewed differently, now???
What's changed and why?
Keep asking questions and looking for answers.
That's how I found out there's nobody
but a tiny entity behind a curtain
with smoke and mirrors
cultivating interest and lobbying for ITSELF
and it's investors.
July 27, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Bad equipment, bats and balls,
is a bad idea.
July 27, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
I guess the problem with me is I fell in love playing the game with the old cork center ball and wood bats. Sure the aluminum bats came along, but if they had not I would still be happy playing with the wood. Some of you make it sound as if you just started playing the game when composites arrived. It's a game, more than one part to it. How many shortstops out there do you want on your team that would be a human vacuum, but can't hit 250 do you want on your team? Not many I'll bet!
July 27, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
That's a good point, Jeff
but that shortstop is still valuable because
defense is important as winning is important.
July 27, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
none of them do pricer,if he can't hit 400' bombs they don't want him on their team.i remember when a guy like that was valued on a team,he was a singles hitter and would bat maybe .500,but was great to have for his defense.but i guess with this combo we have now,there is no need for a player like that as the balls are hit so hard he can't get to them anyways,so he doesn't get to play......


to prove your point,i took a bunch of defensive guys to a tourney(military type)and played against the base teams,and guess what we finished in 4th ahead of a bunch of teams with our defense,this was before composite days,but we had double walls then.we had 2 guys that hit balls out.
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