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Discussion: Input

Posted Discussion
Aug. 5, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Input
Why is it that the some players feel like they will dictate how an association will be run? When growing up playing the game, did we ever indicate or threaten ASA,NSA,USSSA or anyother association that it's either my/our way or we're outta here. What do you think they would have told us? Did we not just show up and play by there rules regardless? I know what I prefer for the game, but it won't keep me from playing if one or all of the associations don't agree.

Jeff Price
K Sheeren Essentails
50-AAA Michigan
Aug. 5, 2011
perly
88 posts
Pricer

Nice question and should generate a lot of discussion.

You have to feel the organizations overall are doing a good job or they wouldn't stay in business. At the end of the day this is a business for them. Like any business you can't please everybody so you keep your finger on the pulse and do what's best to grow your businees.

If an individual are group starts threatening or complaining the oganizations should listen, determine if change is needed and move on. If they don't accomodate these folks then the complainers have a decision, either quit playing in this organiation or continue to play. If they continue to play after saying the won't participate what does that say about their credibility?

I believe as players we have the right to share or thoughts and ideas with these organization, but we don't have the right to dictate to them.

Aug. 5, 2011
Lecak
Men's 55
1005 posts
Pricer in this day and age the consumer is king. The business world is littered with failed companies who said my way or the highway. Whoever gives the best experience will grow and thrive. Frannie with SSUSA is the best customer service in softball period so guess who is the biggest in senior softball. They all basically have the same rules for the most part. You cannot tell people to take it or leave it and the consumer is always right always.
Aug. 5, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
pricer you are so right,we went ,we played.been that way since the beginning.

joe L read perly's post,i think he has hit the nail on the head.

the customer is not always right,by the way.if he was we would be driving cars that would go 200 mph,we wouldn't be paying $4 a gal for gas,and so on.ya get the drift.hell we wouldn't have any bat restrictions what so ever,the balls would be flying like golf balls,shall i keep going.the reason the business world is littered with failed businesses,is the fact they didn't plan ahead.they failed in their business plans.
Aug. 5, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
It just seems like old guys feel empowered and entitled.

But yea, I don't ever remember Jim Galloway or Don Arndt or Richard Howard or Ken Sanders or Mike Macenko or Dave Neale threatening Don Porter.
Aug. 5, 2011
curveball
Men's 65
400 posts
19 Who did you play for when you played against or with Galloway, Arndt, Howard, Sanders, Macenko, or Neale? What was the name of your team in that era? How close are you to these guys to know what they were thinking at that time?
Aug. 5, 2011
Don5
Men's 60
33 posts
I believe that every major entity that uses sports as their livelihood would try to eliminate each other to gain that portion too. It is not a business to the average ball player; they feed into the wealth of each organization by paying entry fees, age cards, etc. to play. The only avenue as a player to really disagree with those organizations is to not pay those fees. We have noticed that the biggest complaint of the Major divisions is bracketing with the M+ teams. Withdrawal of teams is the only true way to guarantee change, summit meeting and web discussions are really just a vent venue. Sure they listen intently on what the players have to say, wouldn't you too? Change always starts in the roots and then explodes into the tree; soon the tree adapts or dies.

SSUSA has been the most viable venue for major tourneys in the West. I admire what Dave and Fran do for the organization but I wouldn't want their jobs. The player rating system seems so bad that my team pulled out of 4 Major SSUSA tourneys this year, yet they seem unwilling to rate the players, only the teams.

Change is needed and maybe Ridge Hooks will help provide that. At least there is an alternative for major tourneys in the West. Don't get me wrong, I think SSUSA will endure and get better, but just like everything else they need to adapt too. I like playing Reno, Cal Cup, Westerns and the big one, but not today.

Don5
Aug. 6, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1956 posts
Don5-I chose last year to go to the yearly convention of SSUSA. It was an eyeopening experience. If you really think they are not listening-wrong. If you really think it is ALL about money to them-wrong. If you think they really resist change-wrong. They spend a tremendous amount of time talking about all of these issues. They have tried ideas, different rules, different formats and so far have found that the acceptance to the present format is the best. Most of the players I play against and with are pretty satisfied with it and just happy to have the opportunity to play. A vocal few here have issues and I encourage them to take the time in November and make the convention. Write Dave Dowell personally ahead of time with your concerns and I know from experience that he will personally talk to you about them.
Rating players, as I have said before, would be a humongous undertaking of time and resources. There are 6 of them in the office and they are usually running all over the country to run tournaments. Logistically, they would have to hire several people to set up a database on all players. Our team does not even keep stats. How would you rate us? Would you require us to keep solid stats? Would you set guidelines-say batting over .800 with x number of homeruns per x number of at bats? How do you rate a major plus player that is an excellent position player, great table setter as a singles hitter, but does not hit the ball out of the park? There are lots of AAA players that do exactly that. Would you rerate a AAA player that hits .800 plus with a lot of home runs? I guarantee if they ever decided to try to rate players, they would have 3000 people with ideas and criteria that they would feel needed to be included in the rating system. They would need stats from every tournament. Phoenix alone had 329 teams last year. If they played an average of 6 games each, that is 1974 games times, say 30 players is 59,220 player/games times 3 at bats per player is 177,660 at bats for the tournament. And that is one tournament.
Just saying, I'm not sure they could ever do it.
Aug. 6, 2011
Don5
Men's 60
33 posts
Webbie25, they do rate players, but only in regards to what division they play in. I was on the Major plus roster for a couple of years as a manager, coach and limited time player. When I left to play in a older age division and had to petition SSUSA to let me play because I was rated M+, not only me but several of our players had to do the same thing. Believe me I am not a M+ player. I'm curious how many 50 M+ teams have won major championships the last few years with only single hitters, every team has single hitters, but on the M+ teams most of those guys can also hit it out too. Provide limitless homers and you will see that too.

How hard would it be to rate players? Start at the 50 M+ teams and see who wins most and look at their lineup, the organizations know who the impact players are, the players sure do.

And yes I know that Dave does a lot of work and they listen.
Aug. 6, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1956 posts
I know, Don5, but the issues have been raised because people are not happy with the-'if you played that division, you are rated the division' concept. Sure you know who the impact players are, but you get to a grey area as far as ability after the top players and that is what I was addressing as far as taking the rating issue farther.
They do a tremendous amount of work on this issue.
Aug. 7, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Did you know that more Americans favored staying with the Association, Great Britain,
instead of rebelling and going to war against it to gain their/our freedom????
Didn't think so.
Any group or person or association or society can become too corrupt or self interested
or non responsive to support or go along with
either in part or all.
Lot's of people, more and more in fact, on both sides of the political spectrum
are feeling that way, all the time.

Associations must truly get the character, heart soul of it's membership
and appropriate themselves to them in order to be viable and survive.
SSUSA understands this as well as any association and they better.
Anyone in business, as Joe L pointed out must get
that the customer is always right.

Aug. 8, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Joey Joe please start your own Association
Got a slogan for you
rules mean nothing we do what we want
Aug. 8, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I have integrity as do most of the men that I associate with.
Those men and I decide which standards/rules are applicable
to and for whatever situation we may find ourselves in.
I taught high school for a while and I learned that all must learn
from experience what life means and when certain rules apply
and when they don't.
Oftentimes, powerful, ignorant, uncaring and unfair people
will lobby and create rules that are intrinsically unfair
and though lawful need be and should be challenged and opposed.

I consider shaving and loading a bat as fundamentally wrong
and unfair and would never support it in any way
but bat rolling doesn't create an unfair situation to me
and most of the players
and is being pushed by marketeers to help gain control of us
and our game.
I don't care about it one way or another.

Aug. 8, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
well most cheaters will attempt to make it so they can cheat and not feel bad about it,you roll a bat,you alter a bat(rolling elongates the sweet spot of a bat)that is it.you use said bat your a cheater.....


i see no integrity there.
Aug. 8, 2011
gary c
411 posts
THE RULES SAY ROLLING A BAT IS ILLEGAL WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?
Aug. 8, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You wouldn't recognize integrity if it came up and bit
you in the ass.

Only robots, puppets, nazis and stooges go along with everything they're told to do.
Real men of intelligence and integrity decide what's right and wrong for themselves.
Aug. 8, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
staff i think this individual has gone against the rules you have set forth here for posting of disparaging remarks towards fellow posters here,also with his own admission to being a cheater.i feel an individual of this type is not worthy of being on this board and contaminating it with his name calling and cheating ways.

staff please do you job and get rid of this cheating name caller.
Aug. 8, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Joseph einstein Renaldi
Calling people a Nazi when talking about softball shows us all how ignorant you are.
It lessens the evil of the word. You being a teacher should know that
Aug. 8, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Joe, so what your saying
"Those men and I decide which standards/rules are applicable
to and for whatever situation we may find ourselves in."
So it would be ok for you or your friends to
"but bat rolling doesn't create an unfair situation to me
and most of the players
and is being pushed by marketeers to help gain control of us
and our game.
I don't care about it one way or another."
regardless what the rules say? What's the difference between being 10% wrong and 100% wrong? Nothing, your wrong. So if the rules indicate that the rolling is cheating, condoning it could in some cases allow players on your own teams to cheat. My question here, is where is all the values & morals here? Is it ok to steal some for 2.00 bucks, but not anything for 100.00? Joe, you can't have it both ways. You can't have integerity and support folks who roll bats. I'm not saying this the rules are. Also,if you say it should be changed, is this a rule you'll lobby for with the senior associations this winter?
Aug. 8, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
What is an Altered or Doctored Bat?
An altered bat (also known as a "doctored bat" or a "juiced bat") is a bat that has been physically altered from its "out of the wrapper" certified condition. The inertial properties (weight or moment-of-inertia) of the bat and/or the elastic properties of the barrel are modified from their manufactured values. A doctored bat usually greatly exceeds the standard of performance "guaranteed" by the certification stamp it bears.
Many players attempt to artificially improve the performance of their bats by altering them in such a way that they will hit balls faster, but without the alteration being visible. Popular bat alterations include painting, end-loading, and shaving the barrel. Other players, who are aware that the performance of composite bats tends to improve with use, attempt to shorten the time for a bat to reach its maximum performance by employing an accelerated break-in (ABI) techniques to improve the performance of their bats. There is some disagreement about whether or not ABI techniques actually fall under the category of "bat doctoring" - so I will address ABI techniques in a separate article.


Doctoring or Altering a Certified Bat is a Federal Crime
Many bat designs have been patented by manufacturers. Modifying the design of the bat, while passing if off as an original, is a violation of the manufacturer's patent and copyright. Furthermore, all bats approved for play in the ASA, USSSA, NSF, ISF, NCAA, Little League, or any other governing body bear a certification mark which means that a particular bat model has tested in a rigorous laboratory experiment in which its performance has been measured and found to fall below some set standard. These certification marks are federally registered trademarks, and altering a bat so that it exceeds the certified level of performance is considered a federal crime. Several manufacturers and governing bodies have been successfully filing and winning lawsuits against bat doctors for violation of trademark and patent rights. The ASA has recently been awarded two $100,000 judgements in lawsuits filed against individuals who illegally altered bats bearing certification stamps, and several other lawsuits are pending.

The problem of players using altered bats is most rampant in adult men's slow-pitch softball.[1] However, comments on several discussion boards indicate that the trend of shaving composite bats has begun to makes its way into organized youth baseball and also girls' fast-pitch softball. The seriousness of this problem in men's slow-pitch softball has attracted the attention of governing bodies and associations, to the extent that both the USSSA and ASA have begun imposing severe penalties for players caught using altered bats. The USSSA checks bats at national tournament and has implemented fierce penalties for players caught using altered bats. If a bat is suspected of having been altered, the player must turn it over to the USSSA for testing. If the bat is found to have been altered, the player is automatically banned from USSSA play for two years. If the player refuses to submit his bat for testing, he is automatically banned for one year. During the 2004 national USSSA tournament, 500 bats were tested using a portable barrel compression device. 70 bats failed the test, and 25 of those bats were found to have been altered (the other 45 were cracked or otherwise damaged and were destroyed).

Aug. 8, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
pricer again why do you try and present the FACTS to him when he will not read them to begin with,or will just ignore them..great post by the way......
Aug. 8, 2011
frampton
Men's 55
55 posts
It does sort of boggle the mind that a legal bat can become illegal because it's been used. I have no problem with outlawing shaved or loaded bats, but "rolling" seems to me to be in a different category. Not to mention the notion that hitting a tree or a pole with a bat could also make it illegal.

The altered bat thing has a personal impact as well. I had a grey combat and the end cap came off. I glued it back on using epoxy -- I wasn't hiding anything, the glue spilled onto the barrel -- without any alteration of the bat itself. Of course, a catcher complained to an ump, and the bat was confiscated by SSUSA. (They were actually apologetic about it, it was pretty clear to everyone that there was no intent to make the bat any hotter, just to make it usable.) They finally sent it back to me -- they couldn't get the cap off the examine it (!), but told me I couldn't use it again.

Just kind of underscores that the rules can lead to absurd consequences if taken to absurd lengths. Such as the notion that a bat that is broken in could be considered "altered" and therefore subject to criminal penalties.
Aug. 8, 2011
gary c
411 posts
IT'S CHEATING!
Aug. 8, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
frampton,if you had sent it back to the mfg'er they would of glued it for you and you could of still be using your bat.

rolling is altering a bat,no if, ands or buts.

also the comp test of a new bat,is up around the 250 mark or higher,it is when it gets below 200 on the tester that it goes beyond the 1.20/1.21 bpf that has been set for the senior bats.
Aug. 8, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Sure sounds like an interesting combination of Old Testament literal thinking
and 1930-40s German thinking to me.
Those guys didn't question their betters or the laws either.
And by the way,
I read that Hitler never broke one law in Germany.
He was always part of the group that pushed to have the laws changed
to suit their needs.

Most of the players I have talked with
say that Rolled bats are not an issue for them.
It's loaded/shaved bats that are.

And we should be busting guys for loaded/shaved bats all the time.
Aug. 8, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
doesn't matter whether its an issue or not with players,it is illegal to use a rolled bat,what part of that don't you understand.....
Aug. 8, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Is it against the rules to roll a bat?
Aug. 8, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
well pricer there is not rule that says you can't do whatever you want to your bat(its your personal property),it is when you attempt to use an altered bat in assoc play is where it becomes illegal for use.
i guess kind of like trying to drive a dragster on the street,not illegal to build and have,just can't put it on the street.
Aug. 8, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Is it against the rules to go 5 mph over the speed limit?
Was it against the rules to keep blacks out of white retail stores
before 1964?
Is it against the rules to not pay taxes in support of an unjust war?
Is it against the rules for a woman to snap and kill a husband
who's been beating/abusing her for over a decade?
Is it against the rules to lobby and spend huge amounts of money to support
and protect highly toxic/polluting industries that are/will endanger many forms of life
on the planet?
Aug. 8, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Does that mean, Robert that you have rolled/dirty bats
in your possession and if so how did you come by them?
Aug. 8, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
yeah right,do any of that stuff here in texas and you go to jail.so what does the price of butter in china have to do with anything here..........


if i do i got them from you.
Aug. 8, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Thanks for the history lesson Joe. Joe or anyone, is it in the rulebook today 8/8/2011 that bat rolling is illegal? Would the rule keep you from using a rolled bat?
Aug. 8, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I'd use one if I wanted to because
it doesn't constitute cheating for me.
I don't own or have a rolled bat
but if I did I'd use it
if I wanted to
and I don't care if someone used
a rolled bat when I pitch/play.

I DO care if someone uses a shaved or loaded bat against me and I might go off on 'em
if I knew.
Aug. 8, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
pricer by all what he has said,it won't stop him,he would prefer to used altered equipment,then play a clean game.as you see he could give his would on tater50's thread about playing a clean game ,like you and i have....
Aug. 8, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
oops should of been "couldn't give his word"

can you imagine some one of this character teaching high schoolers.
Aug. 8, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Joe or anyone, is it in the rulebook today 8/8/2011 that bat rolling is illegal?
Aug. 8, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Jeff.
Most of the players
DON'T CARE.
Aug. 8, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
then we don't care if a pitcher attempts to fool a batter,lets just let them do whatever they want on the mound,we don't care..........
Aug. 8, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Joe, this just don't make sense. We want to care and enforce some of the rules, but not all of them. MD mad a great point, is it ok for you and most of the players your speaking for that don't care if players roll and play with these bats? Then I would assume it's ok for some others to break the rules on pitching or use a 20 inch glove because they have no problem with it? So it's what ever you can get away with, right? I'm not sure that's what the majority of the senior softball worl really want. Bending of the rules, that's one thing. Breaking them is just wrong!
Aug. 8, 2011
frampton
Men's 55
55 posts
Without speaking for Joe, I would say that I want the rules to make sense, and address real problems. For the rule to ban "altered" bats, and then define "altered" as merely used or broken in (as opposed to surreptitiously tampered with to change its fundamental characteristics), is in my opinion to make things unclear and therefore subject to inconsistent application. There's obviously another issue if taping the handle, or adding a rubber end, were also considered "altering" the bat in an illegal way.

There's a comparable issue in hardball, with wood bats. It's legal to put pine tar on the bat, it's legal to "cup" the end of the bat, but not legal to cork the bat. (I also know that in the old days, hitters would rub their bats with bones. Apart from the superstitious notion that the application of bone would increase the affinity for the ball's skin cover, it made the wood harder. Is boning illegal in MLB?)

I do agree that we should be trying to get the associations to make clearer, consistent rules, and I'm not convinced that rolling a bat is a sufficient alteration to justify a rule against it. Especially if the same effect is gained by hitting batting practice with the bat. It just doesn't seem right to me that a legal bat can become illegal just by playing with it longer, and a rule that can lead to such a result should be changed. IMO.
Aug. 8, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
see frampton thats the prol,rolling does enhance the sweet spot of the bat by enlarging it,to make the bat easier to hit with,that is performance enhancing.with all your BP you can not enlarge a sweet spot like you can by rolling a bat,so again your enhancing your bat,thus altering it.
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