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Discussion: Thread to discuss altered bats

Posted Discussion
Aug. 9, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1934 posts
Thread to discuss altered bats
Ok, guys-please discuss the issue of altered bats here and leave the pledge thread to pledges and the discussion thereof.
Thanks.
Aug. 9, 2011
SSUSA Staff
1008 posts
Bat rolling is not specifically mentioned in the SSUSA Rulebook. Neither is bat 'shaving' or any of the other techniques employed to alter a bat's technical specifications. However, any procedure that changes the performance characteristics of the bat, with a goal of enhancing performance beyond "out of the wrapper status", is considered altering a bat. Normal wear and tear through usage as intended by the manufacturer, also known as "breaking in" a bat through hitting a softball, is acceptable and does not constitute altering a bat in contravention of the rules. Bat manufacturers do not honor warranties on bats they identify as having been 'rolled', and consider them as altered bats. Accordingly, we consider rolled bats to be altered bats as covered by SSUSA Official Rulebook ß3.4(5) - ALTERED EQUIPMENT.

Aug. 9, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1934 posts
Thanks for the clarification. Einstein-there it is-rolling is altering.
Aug. 9, 2011
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Webbie ... You don't seem to understand ... If Whinestein says it's ok, then it's ok!!!
Aug. 9, 2011
thebull
Men's 50
59 posts
Bat Rolling is not Illegal according to the SSUSA Rulebook, if itís the SSUSA position that it is then thatís fine, everyone now be aware itís Illegal. But, Bat rolling , or Accelerated Break-in, is not the real problem, Altering Is or should I say physical Altering is. Iíve read some of the studies on Bat Altering and Rolling does change the performance of the bat but not as much as much as usage over time and not nearly as much as Shaving or changing the balance. The problem of Shaving is much greater and much easier to detect and yet little or no progress has been made to eliminate them, so how are we to Police a problem like Rolling thatís virtually undetectable. Good Luck.
Iím an avid supporter of eliminating altered Bats but I do have a problem with the way bats are being tested in the Field. Iíve read on several Forums that many Un-Altered Bats are found to be Illegal simply because they have been broken-In and no longer pass the 1.20 bpf test. My position is that if I buy a Legal Bat that is accepted by an Organization, I should be able to use that bat until it breaks or is worn/damaged beyond the cosmetic limitís described by the Associationís Rules. If a broken-in Bat is to be treated as an Altered Bat then thereís no way I can afford to buy a new bat every time itís been broken in. The real solution in my opinion is a cap that canít be removed without detection, is it really that difficult?
theBull
Aug. 9, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Bull, your right to a point. But, it does indicate "However, any procedure that changes the performance characteristics of the bat, with a goal of enhancing performance beyond "out of the wrapper status", is considered altering a bat. Normal wear and tear through usage as intended by the manufacturer. Also, why have abt standards if bats can, will & are surpassing the 1.21 BPF. That's why I asked the question earlier, If a bat that's been already tested and found to hot, what keeps them from coming into our game. I have one (USSSA approved)that was given to me and it's just stupid hot. But has failed the last three testings. I won't use them, but if there is no rule against them in senior ball, I sell it in a heartbeat. It has been used for HR derbys for most of this year.
Aug. 9, 2011
stick8
1238 posts
We were having this discussion last night about those who roll senior bats. Why anyone would need to do that is beyond me when the bats are already hot out of the wrapper. One thing that was brought up that I never thought about is the lifespan of a rolled bat. As is senior bats aren't exactly the most durable bats and rolling them would shorten that lifespan even more. Why cheat yourself out of 50, 100 or even more swings? Especially with no warranty on the bats.
Aug. 9, 2011
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Sorry stick ... You are much too logical ... This is an emotional issue ... Whinestein will be happy to straighten out your thinking.
Aug. 9, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Stick, this is exactly why I totally disgard comments from some folks that post about all the money they have invested in bats, then turn around and complain about the travel to tourneys that have so few teams. Why is it ok to spend 200.00 plus on a bat, roll it and shorten up life span by up to 50% plus and complain about any cost of playing ball. Control what you can control. Spending money on your equipment is the easiest way to control cost. When I hear folks have 3-8 bats in their arsenal, my first thought is we have a problem here. Find a freakin bat that is approved for all the associations you play in and save at least an arm and maybe a leg. JMO

PS. Stick, you going to Manassas?
Aug. 9, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Jeff.
Way to stay on point regarding what's wrong with all of us
and our "ugly" game.
And are you still in the bat business?
I thought you said you were out.

Bob, 19.
I got your rolled bat, right here.

Bull.
Right on.
That's what we think and who we are.

So, Stick then
why all the worry about doing it
if it doesn't do any real good.

We have to know as adults
which rules/standards are more important than others
and if we don't then
we end up alienating populations
and sewing dissent and discord.

We don't care about Rolled Bats.
The most of us, DO NOT CARE.
Read my lips.
We care about shaved and loaded bats
cause that's where the unfairness/danger truly lies.
The rest is for, of and by manufacturers
and how to protect themselves and/or gain a leg up
on their competition.
Aug. 9, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Joe & 19, your out of line here. I'm not off subject here Joe, you are! We're talking about bats, not individuals, Webbie just mention it to remind you that it's still a rule. You might want to bring in a backhoe, that shovel your using is not digging the hole fast enough to bury yourself in. It's a rule Joe. You can cut it anyway you want to, but it's a rule.
Aug. 9, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I know Jeff
and there is value to rules, no doubt.
But there is also great value in knowing which rules
are more important than others
and enforced accordingly.
Aug. 9, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
bull , rolling is alteration of a bat,rolling elongates the sweet spot,thus enhancing the bat,making it easier for the player to hit with.just doing BP doesn't do that.also a roller can compress a bat a lot further down to make the barrel of the bat more flexible,hence enhancing the bat.just doing BP doesn't do that.so what part of enhancing a bat do you not understand,as in being an alteration of said bat.alteration of bats is not allowed by any assoc that i know of,so if you and your boy joey can show me just one that allows it,please do.

maybe we or should i say the majority of all of us who don't care,should get a thread started about pitchers who try and deceive the batters.

thank you webbie for hopefully getting the muckrakers out of a honorable thread that tater got started.
Aug. 9, 2011
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
So simple ... A rolled bat is an altered bat ... Neither more nor less illegal than a shaved bat ... If you use one, then you are cheating ... So simple!

BTW Whinestein, way too short!
Aug. 9, 2011
stick8
1238 posts
#19, I have nothing against my man Einstein. I've played against him several times and he's a very strong player. Even though we may see things differently he demonstrates quite a passion for the senior game. For me it's useful to read or listen to what he says because maybe I can learn a thing or two that I previously didn't know. I may not agree but gaining more knowledge isn't a bad thing.
As far as me being too logical my better half would take issue with you on that. She'd wonder what you were smoking lol
Aug. 9, 2011
stick8
1238 posts
Fish you raise some valid points, especially about controlling what you can control. Some players will spend an exhorbatant amount of money on equipment. Perhaps if you added up one of those types expenses on bats, gloves, shoes, etc it could add up to a round trip flight to Phoenix or Vegas. I liken what you say to those kids teams who have a minimal amount of sponsorhip but go out and buy the flashy shirts, pants, pullovers and caps. And at the end of the year they don't go to Disney for the worlds because they have no sponsor money and no one wants to pay out of pocket to travel. Some in the younger generation don't know how to stretch or get the most value for a buck.
Aug. 9, 2011
stick8
1238 posts
Einstein that's a fair question to ask.
I would respond this way:
1)rolling or altering bats is considered illegal. AFAIK, bat companies do not make bats so people can wack them off poles, trees or put them in vices just to break in. Hitting balls is the best way to break bats in.
2)If I have to wack a new U2 50 times against a pole that could be 50 potential hits that I'm cheating myself out of getting during games
3)If I wack that $200 U2 on a pole and only get 10 swings before it breaks that's $20/swing. If I don't wack it off a pole and get 200 swings on that same U2 before it breaks it's $1/swing. Much better deal. Since there is no warranty on the U2 I believe you should get as many game swings on them as possible jm $0.02 worth
Aug. 9, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
bull upon reading your post further,why do you think you should be able to use a bat that goes beyond specs.if an assoc deems that a bat not be better than 1.20/1.21 bpf,then why should they let it be used,thats what testing is for to weed out the over spec bats.ASA has told mfg'ers that their bats for ASA will not go beyond the 98 mph when totally broke in(which is approx the 1.2 bpf)so what would you want them to do,say the hell with it,nope mfg'ers are making their bats to what ASA asked.....
Aug. 9, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
And who and what are lobbying ASA
and in who's behalf to make/adapt these changes?
Us, the players or
those who represent us who want to buy,
support and invest in all these associations.
Hell no.
That's why it won't work.
It's not unlike prohibition.
It won't work because the majority
don't like/want it and won't support the change.
It's that simple.

Aug. 9, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Why are some senior softball associations
up in attendance and participation
like NCSSA in NorCal
and others like SPA or SSUSA down?
This is a great question with simple
and telling answers and would lead anyone
who is objective and wants to know the truth
of us regarding the equipment we want, need
and deserve to use
to lively bats and ball are the only
way to play our game
at any level or age.

Aug. 9, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
are you really that stupid,damn joey boy,if you play ASA you play by ASA rules,what don't you understand.they set what the specs will be,no one else tells them what to do,they are the largest softball assoc in the world,or don't you know that.you might want to do some research again before you run off with the mouth,your lips are moving but nothing comes out,just blah,blah,blah.....



Google is your friend try it sometime.....
Aug. 9, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Joe, who umps most of your tourneys? NSA or ASA umps? I can tell you right now, if there is no uniform rules in regards to this soon, all senior groups will have to have their own umpiring crews. They won't and should not be liable for injuries that incur with equipment that has no limits. What I understand is the senior associations are working hand in hand with the other major associations regarding umps. Ultimately they are in charge & responsible. I just don't know were you get this stuff. The members play in these associations, they don't own them. When the majority of your representing want to take on the responsibility to organize as well as be liable for everything that incurs. (including lawsuits) It just don't matter!!
Aug. 9, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
We can take up the rest of this conversation
when I see you, you rabid disrespecter you.
You calling Einstein stupid
is hysterical all by itself.
And 19, that's not what your woman said.

Last I checked senior associations
like NCSSA, SSUSA, LVSSA, SCSSA are independent of ASA or USSSA is a compound sentence
a bit too long for your attention span,
Sponge (ball) Bob.
Aug. 9, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
We have ASA umps usually
sometimes Utrip umps Jeff for senior events
but who use our balls and enforce our rules
and standards.
Why/how would that change?
Aug. 9, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Liability would be a good start. If umpires are resposible for checking bats before games, do you not think they could be liable in some cases. It already hard enough for them to check bats before games when associations have limits, but senior softball has none. Has anyone ever witnessed a bat being tested in a senior tourney? For that matter has any bats ever been confiscated for inspection?
Aug. 9, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
SPA and SSUSA check bats all the time.
SPA even puts stickers on the bats
to show they've been at least looked at.
Jeff
the insurance thing is like a witch hunt
and after the steroid thing,
we're, our society
is done with all that kind of stuff.
Senior associations used ASA umps
because of their reputed prowess not
to enforce ASA standards.
They enforce senior standards
in all our tournaments in SSUSA.
Aug. 9, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Please don't confuse checking the bat before a game and one being tested and found hotter than allowed. Has anyone ever witnessed a bat being tested in a senior tourney? For that matter has any bats ever been confiscated for inspection?
Aug. 9, 2011
thebull
Men's 50
59 posts
I wonít argue the fact that Rolling will improve a new bat although it probably has little effect on a broken-in bat and I have no problem with SSUSA clearly stating their position, they should have done so sooner. I must say that rolling a Senior Bat is Silly, I take a new SB and put about 20 hits on it and its ready to go, time to put it away and use it only in games. Iíve had older Players ask me to break in their bats, no problem, 10 swings..done. As for using a Bat that exceeds specs., itís just not my problem. I have no control of the supply of Bats to players. I do not specify what bats can be used for a particular Association nor do I determine how the bats are manufactured. I simply buy and use whatís allowed for where Iím playing, and Iím sure as heck not going to buy a new Bat every few weeks. If the tournaments want to provide the Bats then fine, or if someone doesnít like my bat then they should feel free to provide a new one for me.
I rarely get more than 100 hits out of a Senior Bat anyway so all are fairly new.
When I started playing again in the new composite era I just couldnít believe it, I used to have 1 Mitt, 1 Bat and a pair of cleats, good-to-go. Now I have ASA Bats, USSSA Bats, Senior Bats and wood Bats, and have to carry multiple SS and USSSA because they break so frequently. And thatís just the Bats, the Balls are just as stupid, thereís a different COR and Compression for every Associations and for different Tournaments. Most non SSUSA Tournaments I play use USSSA Bats and ASA Balls. It's getting too expensive and too complex.
Einstein,
I for one do not think youíre a Cheater, bat rolling is just not that big of an issue and your right, most of us just donít care. The real issue is Shaving and Weighting, but the SSUSA has clearly defined itís position and this should be a dead issue, itís not allowed.
In one of your previous Posts you also bring up a good point, which rules are valid and which arenít. Read Rule 8.4(1) How many players follow this Rule? The answer is Zero, we all choose to disregard it therefore we are all Cheaters. Even SSUSA chooses which Rules to use: some Tournaments use HRís then Outs and some are HRís then Singles. Not a complaint, just an observation.
theBull

Aug. 9, 2011
obagain
Men's 50
56 posts
For those saying rolling is no more than just breaking in your bat, you are wrong.
Rolling can seperate the inner and outer layers without cracking either, this greatly increases the performance of the bat.
Rolling will break in the whole barrel evenly allowing for more flex and increases the performance.
Hitting balls will never duplicate either of these.
Aug. 9, 2011
Super V 10
Men's 50
65 posts
I need a answer from everybody on this post. how many softballs do you hit a week, month, year? and how did you come up with your theory on a rolled bat.

Dave
Aug. 9, 2011
Mario
Men's 50
346 posts
I take about 300 swings per week. And I don't have a theory on a rolled bat. Why anyone would roll a senior bat is beyond me.
Aug. 9, 2011
gary c
411 posts
If it's altered in any way it's against the rules and if you do it your a CHEATER.
Aug. 9, 2011
obagain
Men's 50
56 posts
super V 10, I have made bats and repped for a few different companies, I didnt post a theory, it is fact.
I get to tinker with bats and resins so I have seen the effects of rolling on different bats.
I wouldnt roll a senior bat myself, most just need a good bp session to loosen up.
I hit 300-600 a week depending on the weather, right now it is too hot to hit too much so I will hit 100 or so balls 3 times a week but in cooler weather I will hit 150-200 a day 3-4 times a week.
Aug. 9, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Right Mario but there's a movement
to convince the world that we are all cheaters
using cheater bats and the only way to gain control of the situation is to
dumb down the bat/ball combo.
So the more ways to say we are cheating
even though it's not effectively cheating
the more they might be listened to.

Bat rolling as I have experienced it
takes away the life of the bat very quickly
and has never made any bat I have had rolled
hit better or last longer than other bats
I have had.

There's no value in it, to me and
do I consider it cheating as in taking/having unfair advantage over another.
No.

Aug. 9, 2011
obagain
Men's 50
56 posts
einstein, then why do you do it?
If there is no benefit why spend extra money and have the bat life shortened?
Are you stupid or trying to justify cheating?
Aug. 9, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You're not paying enough attention, son.
You like calling someone stupid
for having an opinion different from you?
That's an ignorant thing to do.
Ignorant to the bone.

I don't own or have a rolled bat.
Do I think it's cheating?
No as don't most of the softball population.
Would I swing one?
If I wanted to, sure.
Would I care if someone batted against me
with a rolled bat while I was pitching
and hit me with a ball
over some guy who had just a very well broken in one?
No.
Aug. 9, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You seem unable to fathom the sense
of what I'm saying.
I don't think you're trying to be obtuse.
I just don't think you get what I mean.

But calling someone stupid
is something else, Bob.
It reveals more about you than me, son
in a way you probably don't get, either.
Aug. 9, 2011
obagain
Men's 50
56 posts
I use stupid in the literal sense, it doesnt make sense to roll a bat and take away the life of the bat and pay to have it done if there is no benefit, thus ist is a stupid thing to do.
I dont like using equipment that has been toned down but if the associations say that is the rule then I play by them.
Aug. 9, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Obagain
Give up he is a dishonest person with no moral fiber.
Aug. 9, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Joe, I'm LMAO that you cpuld even think of saying this
"You like calling someone stupid
for having an opinion different from you?
That's an ignorant thing to do.
Ignorant to the bone.
You of all people!!

Does this sound like a man with a agenda or someone with facts?

I have made bats and repped for a few different companies, I didnt post a theory, it is fact. I get to tinker with bats and resins so I have seen the effects of rolling on different bats.

Aug. 9, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
yes pricer i know bob(obagain) and have been around him some and get a lot of facts from him.i'm glad he has posted what i have been trying to tell these cheaters what happens to a bat when rolled,but hey they all know more than i do.thanks bob for posting the real facts,but i guess they are just gonna ignore ya,they don't want to believe in facts.bob is a stand up guy......
Aug. 9, 2011
obagain
Men's 50
56 posts
They know the facts, they just need to justify their position.
There is no logical reason to roll a bat if you get no benefit.
Aug. 10, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Wow, Jeff and Thanks.
I was right, AGAIN about you and your predisposition given our ongoing talk
about bats and balls.
You made bats and repped for a few different companies.
Which bats and which companies would help round out our discussion about what's going on
in, around and through us.

Falling in 'lockstep' behind a movement is not in and of itself a bad thing but it means that the movement must be of, by and for the best interest of all those it would affect.
Because 'dollars' are driving the movement
to a 'one size fits all' solution
for all the problems of senior softball,
call me paranoid,
but I DON'T trust it will deliver us
to the "promised land" on its face.
Then, when you ask direct questions and probe
a little deeper it gets more hoaky
until you begin to see little people behind
a curtain shouting and blowing a lot of smoke.

That's been my experience, to date
and the attacks on this site to discredit me
personally and for my views
and support of lively bats and balls
are a matter of record.
Aug. 10, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Gary C.
Thank you so much
for your characterless attacks.
You highlight and bring out
the best in and of me,
over and over again.
And the little band of merry men
you are of/with is taking on more form
for all to see, with every post.
Way to go.
Aug. 10, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Jeff.
Why not do a software search
for me ever using the word stupid
when referring to another human being
and see what you come up with?
Nothing.
I use ignorant which means 'not knowing'
and doesn't refer to anyone's capability
in any fixed and/or pejorative way.
I do it for a reason which would be more obvious to an intelligent person like yourself
if you weren't on so much a mission
to guide us and our thinking away
from who we are and what we truly want
and need to play softball,
both senior and open.
Children are ignorant.
Dogs are ignorant.
Defensive people are ignorant.
No one is stupid to and for me,
now and ever.
It's use is fundamentally degrading
and wrong in any sense of the word.
Aug. 10, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Joe, I don't remembering you asking anyone a question. You want an answer. Ask a question. But that's not your style. Just lump everyone who don't agree with you together and call them idiots and the evil ones. You don't want to ask me the important questions or answer mine with any precision at all. Remember Joe, we all have played competitive ball in our past. Some of us at higher levels than others. So please don't talk down to us any longer. You want my or anyone else credentials or rťsumťís that might indicate our experience on a subject, just ask. Then you can give us yours. This will in turn allow everyone the opportunity to decide for themselves about the validity & strength of a posters comment or opinion.
Aug. 10, 2011
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Whinestein ... Classless, but I expect nothing better from you.
Aug. 10, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1934 posts
One thing I'd like to throw in is an agreement in part with what theBull said. If I buy a $200 bat and at some point it does not pass the test and gets tossed out-I want my money back. It has to be incumbent on the manufacturers to sell us legal bats when they are marketed as such. I also get about 100 cuts if I'm lucky off a U2, and am on my 7th one since last year. My Reebok was still good after about 250 cuts, but I didn't like the way it swung, unfortunately.
Aug. 10, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You certainly would know what you were talking about
when calling someone classless, Bob.
I'm glad you know yourself so well that you want/need
a slower version of an already slow game
but you're judgment that the rest of us should too
is quintessential classlessness.
We are not only the super majority here but we are right
about us and our game.
It's you that needs to learn a thing or two
from the most of us.
Aug. 10, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Keep it up, Jeff.
I represent and am fighting for the great majority of players
who have too much class to even joust on a website like this
and you and your small and I do mean small cadre of zealots,
purifiers and investors make us look fantastic by contrast.
So keep up the good work and keep trying to discredit me by lying,
name calling or tryin' to talk down to me/us, cherry picking info, and admonishing me/us for not knowing what's good or best for us
all the while you check your bank account
and you are and will continue to provide the best service
possible for us by showing us who we are and who we are not
regarding this and any other important issues we face
at this time in senior softball.\
Jeff.
Who did you say you worked for
and what bat was it you were working on
and with whom?
That might help round out the info regarding you
and your 'input' and help us all get a better idea
if that's possible of who you truly are
and where you're coming from.
Aug. 10, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Webbie, I don't think the manufacuters are gonna go for this. The bats are made to pass the testing when they are sold. After that, gloves are off. That's why they'll warranty one bat. If you remember they used to exchange aluminum as many times as needed if they're bat did not last thru the warranty period. It did not matter if it was the original or the replacement. It had to last the warranty or they exchanged them. Now, one time replacement. There is where you should have a beef. Buy a bat, break a break during the warranty period. They exchange it, then the replacement last you fewer swings than the original. Then it's, sorry buy a new one. We have the same issue in the hockey biz.
Aug. 10, 2011
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
2963 posts! ... Get a life!
Aug. 10, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Jeff.
You mentioned working on a bat
and repping for some companies.
You're not ashamed of your past experiences/relationships
regarding senior softball, are you?
I wouldn't think so.
Let us know.
I think it could be helpful to us.
Aug. 10, 2011
gary c
411 posts
2964 posts!
GET A DATE THERE MUST BE SOME OLD BLIND BROAD OR GUY IN FRISCO
Aug. 10, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Joe, I was quoting obagain. He said he " I have made bats and repped for a few different companies, I didnt post a theory, it is fact.
I get to tinker with bats and resins so I have seen the effects of rolling on different bats." I have never made or have been sales rep for any bat company. I'm in the hockey biz. I have owned a pro shop in a softball complex many years ago that sold baseball/softball equipment
including bats. I have nothing to be ashamed about. I've played one year of masters softball in USSSA and have a ring for it. Retired and came out this year and so far played in two tourneys and won them both. Nope, I don't think I should be ashamed of anything. Of course I'm not very good, I just pick the right teamates!
Aug. 10, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
jeff i think every one but him understood that,but hey not our fault he can't read.....

webbie your complaint should be with the mfg'er.ASA makes the mfg'er make the bats they allow to not ever go past the 98 mph mark(and i think it is a tad lower now)or they won't allow the ASA stamp to be put on the bat.all senior assoc don't care at this moment how hot a bat gets,they could care less as do the mfg'ers.the mfg'er will send out a legal bat,but how quick it gets to illegal they could care less,the faster the better for them,just means you have to buy a new bat,but hey what do i know,i'm just in cahoots with them to ruin the majority's game......
Aug. 10, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Gary, 19, Saddy and Jeff.
Keep up the good work.
I never look so good as when I'm in the midst of you guys.
Thank you, once again.
Aug. 10, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
yeah right joey boy,it is impossible to make you look good.how many teams have you played on,since you started playing senior ball.maybe i could ask the MCT 60 team why your not there any more...
Aug. 10, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1934 posts
mad dog-the manufacturer should back up the retailer if a bat is thrown out for exceeding specs, but I would be really upset if I spent 200 bucks for a bat I couldn't use.
Aug. 10, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
webbie,you don't return anything else that has run its course of use do ya.just saying we get bats that are legal,then we use them and they go out of specs,just like shoes wearing out so do bats,just saying.....mfg'ers will never make anything that will last a lifetime,they would go out of business.
Aug. 10, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Can you believe these clowns?
Slow, Gary and Curly Jeff.
They're hysterical.
Couldn't pay for this much entertainment.
Thanks again, guys.
Boy, you make me look good.
Aug. 10, 2011
Freddie
Men's 55
108 posts
I've been with senior softball for the last 7 years, never any higher than AAA. All the tournaments that we have gone to there's never been an issue with altered bats.
What divisions are having the problems with altered bats?

Freddie
Agave
Aug. 11, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1934 posts
Hi, Freddie-I haven't ever questioned anyone we've played, either, but I have seen (and hit) some eyeopeners. You guys hit some 'respectable' shots in Prescott. I like to believe the cheaters are few and far between. Good Luck in Silver City this weekend!

Mad dog-in my mind, these bats don't last at all anyway-7 in a year and a half. To lose more cuts because it becomes too hot and exceeds specs is unacceptable. My gosh, man, don't you think having a decent bat that lasts a year is a reasonable request???
Aug. 11, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
webbie no it isn't,but tell the mfg'ers that.they could care less on how long a senior bat lasts.maybe test them the bats and those that are over 1.25 get tossed,hows that.that is quite a bit over by the way.it prolly should be more like tossing them at 1.23 bpf.personally i would rather have a less hot bat that would last longer,but that would really make the ego maniacs mad,b/c they would not be able to be big boys anymore.


freddie in senior ball not as much,there has been some cases that bats sent back to reebok had been shaved and the player was looking for a return on a bat he said only lasted 20-50 swings,go figure....i hear of the endloading more than anything tho,and they are mostly guys who get bats from companies who sponsor them,miken used to do it a lot......
Aug. 19, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1934 posts
I decided to put this on the Altered Bat post, mad dog. You'll see why. Please keep in mind we have both pledged not to ever use them in competition.
thebull and I went out today to take BP and it was, for me, an illuminating experience. He plays with the kids and got hold of a white Miken from them that has been shaved just to see what it was really all about. We had that bat, a freak, and U2's to compare-and we had 2 52/275 Trump Stotes to hit.
I could not tell the shaved bat in any way by looking at it. I did not hear any difference when I hit the ball with the shaved bat. However, according to thebull, the pace through the infield was phenomenal and the distance was at or better than my Ultra 2. But he could tell when I mis-hit balls with the shaved bat and they still cleared the fence easily. (302 for you snickerers out there).Some were close to 400 feet. Conclusion-shaved bat advantages were bigger and more forgiving sweet spot, and much faster pace through the infield, and more distance. Live Pitching.
I went to the ultra 2 and still hit a couple close to the 400 foot mark, but the pace through the infield was slower than the shaved bat, although still extremely respectable.
The broken in freak is close to the Ultra-really! We didn't see much difference.
Mad dog-for you-the 52/275. I got 4 swings at it but that was enough to evaluate pretty well. Waaaaaaaaay too bouncy-the first 2 were good tophand topspin line drives to straight away right field(lefty batter) and the bounced all the way to the fence, never going into a roll. Both of them. The pace was just fine, but not what the U2 was. The last 2 swings the ball went out of the park on a line drive trajectory. The first was a no doubter, but the second one I did not hit as well and I could see the 'float' in the ball as it neared the fence. We were both surprised that one dropped over. It doesn't 'jump' like the balls we have become accustomed to(44/375). Conclusion-it's not nearly as bad as I was led to believe listening to Einstein, but I believe it is too big a step back from where we are. The bounciness on the concrete reminded me exactly of the first time I saw the T4000 in 1982. Same sound. The ball felt synthetic-I didn't like that. You do have to hit it to get it out-I liked that.
Sorry if this went long, but I bet there are others that have heard, but wondered about all the hoopla. It really is a big deal.Thanks for reading.

Mark Weber
Aug. 19, 2011
thebull
Men's 50
59 posts
Hey Webbie, I thought Iíd expand on your Post. First the balls werenít carrying well today, they seemed to just die at about 400í to @ 425í so today might not have been the best day for you to try the 52 core Ball. But I was very surprised how well you hit them and how far they went. I personally donít like them and I donít hit them well but they seem to preform for your type of swing, a hard line drive with lots of backspin. I will back off a little on my opposition, but only a little. If I had to I think I could adjust to them but doubt that the ball will ever be used in Seniors so I wonít worry about it.
As for the shaved bat, it was frightening experience pitching today. The balls were going by me so fast that I barely had time to duck behind the pitching screen. I would never pitch to someone I suspected of using a shaved bat, ever. And I agree with you on the Ultra/Freak comparison, both hit routinely over 400í with a few 460í+ range, Ultraís was a little hotter but the Freak was almost new and not broken in yet. I felt that the biggest difference is that the Ultra has a larger sweet spot and is much more forgiving.
theBull
Aug. 19, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
thanks guys,just about what i expected,since i have seen ya swing webbie,now bull i can't say as i have never seen your swing.do you try and really muscle up on the ball,or are your smooth like webbie.the 52 will not let a lot of those miss swings go out like a senior bat will,is what i have seen.yes it is a tad bouncy,but playing with them in league it hasn't been a real problem.in over 20 games i have had 2 bounce over my head on the mound,my infielders have had no big bounces from them,they have had skip bounce just like the 44's can do,but thats it.oh and the 52 will not damage you like a 44 can.....its bruises(52) vs broken bones(44)
Aug. 19, 2011
thebull
Men's 50
59 posts
Mad dog, Markís swing and my swing are completely different. Markís swing is flatter, longer and he uses his lower body much more than I do, better technic. I need a short stride, use less lower body and power the ball with my forearms. I also swing with more of an upward angle. I understand exactly what your trying to convey though about a smoother swing for the 52 Core, I learned to do it a few years ago in a Wood Bat Home Run Derby. I went back to my 38 oz. Howard style swing, long, slow and smooth, it works ( for wood bats). I taught it to my sonís USSSA Team and they won a Wood Bat tournament in Denver.
I have also changed my mind about its safety, I now agree with you itís much safer. After Mark hit that Old Guy riding his Bike down the street he popped up like nothing happened and just kept going, maybe he was frightened off when Mark went running toward him to see if he was alright.
I still donít like the 52 core Ball, why donít you focus some of your energies on trying to get the Manufacturers to improve it. With some tweaking it may become a Ball that most players would find acceptable.
theBull
Aug. 19, 2011
Lecak
Men's 55
1004 posts
Did you give the altered bat back? I hope not
Aug. 19, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
i'm talking with the guy who invented the ball,he actually comes on here(tattooball)and he is doing something to really make it better.i hope to get a couple to hit in the future to help him test them,and before anyone pipes in,i'm not getting anything but a couple of balls out of it to test for him.he sends them out to a lot of people around the country for testing.i have known him since 06,and he is a great guy,and knows his stuff.yes we all want to bang the ball 400' but why when we can go 350' and have a safer game is all i'm saying.i only brought this ball up a few years back b/c of guys on here starting to complain about pitcher safety,this corrects that.
Aug. 19, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1934 posts
Darn-you got on before I could finish and talk about your swing-Mike. I got interrupted. He has said it well, we swing totally differently. He is overall so much stronger than I am and he used that strength well. I had a crook in my neck after he hit 8 in a row well over the fence with the freak. The shaved bat is a lethal weapon and from what I understand the one we hit with was not nearly as thin walled as it could get. Whew! Mike-I don't ever want to pitch to you in a game without a screen-steel mesh, unless you are using the old ceramic bat. I may even wear pads in left field against you. :-)
I've said many times-it is easier to get the bat right and hotter than it is to get a ball softer and true to balance the technology. The 52 is not there, but not far away from having a 'tempering' effect on the game without losing the liveliness that we do need.
Einstein-just a wild guess-no way!!!! lively bats and balls forever............essential to the welfare of the game......etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
Now you don't have to tell us-we know. Keep it light, Joe.
Aug. 19, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1934 posts
By the way, it reinforces my oath to never use a shaved bat in competition. Personally, I would not handle it well if I injured someone badly with an altered bat. And that is what this thread was originally about!
Aug. 19, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
tell me webbie,i had an original freak that got to about 1500 swings and was hotter than snot,not u-2 hot but close,and balls just jumped off it,had the kids backing up and complaining on some of the balls i hit.that is what makes me wonder why we need this combo of ours to play with.
Aug. 19, 2011
thebull
Men's 50
59 posts
Lecak, good question, I promise you that Bat will never be used in a Ballgame or Derby. I will keep for a while to demonstrate my point that you canít outwardly identify some Altered Bats, then destroy it.

Mad dog, I will always oppose the 52 Ball as it is now, and my opposition was directed primarily at you because you are pushing it so strongly. I was trying to get across to you that I donít think it will ever be accepted by the majority of players and you are riding the wrong Horse on your Crusade. Donít take my comments personally, I have no beef with you, I actually support your efforts to find a safer Ball, really, just not this one. Tell your buddy ďtattooballĒ heís close and to keep working on it. When an acceptable ďSafe BallĒ is produced Iíll jump on your Bandwagon.
Also, a Freak can hit nearly as well as an U2 if it's been broken in by someone who hits it hard enough. I have three, all with less than 500 swings,my hottest has @300 hits. I'll bring it to Worlds and your welcome to try it if it hasn't broken by then.
theBull
Aug. 19, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
i had a freak like i said(the old one) and loved it,i even used it in place of my u-2 back in 06 b/c it was a 26 and my u-2 was a 27.also wasn't using the u-2 3 weeks before going to worlds b/c of no senior play and a vacation on my part.felt better swinging the freak....i have no prol with guys not liking the ball,it is when you come on here(which you didn't do)and berate me for looking after the safety of the players.i'm with you the 44's hit way better,but at what cost do we accept.to me just saving one life is worth the change.as you said,i really don't see ssusa changing the ball any time soon,but that will not stop me from trying.some people just don't understand that point..thank you,sorry to rant on to ya....drink all of webbie's beer for me.....he owes me one....
Aug. 19, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1934 posts
mad dog-I had a freak that was every bit as hot as my ultra and it lasted a lot longer. Not really much different.
Aug. 20, 2011
thebull
Men's 50
59 posts
Mad dog, I use a 30 oz. Freak Limited, one reason I like it is because it feels and swings like my U2. I canít switch weights and balance, tried my Sons freak 27oz. yesterday with Mark and it was embarrassing, warning track. I think Mark will agree with me but Iím in the middle of the Lively Combo/Safe Game debate. I defiantly want a Good ball/Bat Combo and believe itís critical to the continuing success of SS but I also think we need to take it down a notch. Mark and I have always hit HRs but when we were in our prime 25 years ago a 400í Hit was an more of an anomaly, now ( and I speak for myself) Iím an Old Man, overweight, donít lift weights every day, have Arthritis and going for a long run means hitting a triple. Yet I hit farther now the I thought possible 25 years ago.
Just doesnít seem right, Iíd be willing to give up some distance for added safety. Different Ball, USSSA Bats, either one I donít care, and Iím not asking you to give up your efforts, asking you to consider a different alternative.
What does gets my dandruff up is when someone tries to fundamentally change the game by slowing it down and removing the HR as a factor, I view this as an attempt by weak players seeking parity to level the playing, if weak players are intimated by Big Hitters they should play AA Ball.
theBull
Aug. 20, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
bull understand,i look at the ball as it is the easiest to change and still let the guys who always had hit the long ball still do it,plus all the seniors don't have to go buy new bats,we can still use the senior bat.i see a prol with keeping the same ball and going to usssa or asa bats,as we will see more shaved bats in senior ball,i'm thinking,and yes seniors do cheat just like the kids.oh well i guess we'll have to wait and see.


webbie i had 2 freaks and 4 syn-2's when asa took away the grandfather bats in 2008,oh was i mad.i kept 1 syn-2 and sold all the others.....i do miss those bats,prolly should of kept them......
Aug. 20, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1934 posts
mad dog-changing the ball is easiest-because you don't have to go through all the bat stuff you would have to to change back to alloy, but also the hardest, because it is difficult to get a true reacting ball when changing specs. It seems they don't quite fly, or bounce the way they should. When they went to the RF80 from the T4000, it went nowhere and really angered people.It took a while to get it right. It floated, a bit like what I saw on the 52/275, and if you hit it directly, it still went nowhere.
Mike-you overpower a 27 oz bat-I use that term for not having enough weight in your bat for your swing. I'm sure someone has a correct technical term.
I was hoping more people would be willing to share altered bat experiences, but I guess nobody is willing to admit they have even tried it. It was an interesting experience.
Aug. 20, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
webbie i never got to hit the T4000.i always hit a worth red or blue dots back then(and an occasional grey and gold dot),or the cork center's before the poly's came out.i think the guy who invented the 52 ball is working on it and should have something out ,hopefully sometime soon.
Aug. 20, 2011
thebull
Men's 50
59 posts
Webb, I found the rest of the 52 core balls if you want to try them again, Iíll hit some and youíll see a bigger difference with my swing. Also, found a bunch of Blue Dots, letís take the Alum. Bats and see if you still got it.
We could find out if Ēmad dogĒ is correct that the 52ís will hit the same with a shaved bat.( keeping us on Thread) The Bat wonít last long, itís going to break soon. When a Bat that canít be Altered is mandatory the Altered Bats will fade away quickly due to attrition.
md, agree that the ball is the place to make the change, if a change is made.
theBull

Aug. 20, 2011
thebull
Men's 50
59 posts
mad dog, you said you were getting a couple of the new balls, hey you only need one, send me the other one.
theBull
Aug. 20, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
can do when i get them.....
Aug. 25, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1934 posts
I admit to surprise. I did think a few guys might talk more about the altered bat issue and their experience. I was fascinated and curious when thebull said he had one. My mind just doesn't accept 'cheating' in our game. We are amateurs and go home to family and jobs. After my experience, I am in favor of lifetime bans for anyone caught knowingly using one in competition.
Having said that, the thought crosses my mind "what do you do if a guys borrows a bat from a teammate, say in a case where his personal bat broke, and has no knowledge that it is shaved?" I would hate to see an honest person banned.
Any further thoughts, guys???
Aug. 25, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Webbie, that is a tough question. My thoughts are, know your teammates first & foremost. If you can absolutely prove the batter had no idea the bat was illegal, I say it's a judgment call only if bat owner admits guilt. But if bat owner goes in denial himself, both are gone for minimum of 5 years. JMO
Aug. 25, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
the player borrowing a bat not knowing it is dirty, should not get the same as the owner,in my opinion.any owner denying should get a hefty ban,10 years at least.
Aug. 25, 2011
thebull
Men's 50
59 posts
I wish I could trust all my Teammates but I donít, I trust the ones I know well but thereís many I donít know very well. This is especially true when I play for different teams with players Iíve never met.

In my Opinion we have already lost the battle against Altered Bats. Iím around younger players a lot because of my Son and at the upper level of softball the Shaved Bat has become the norm in my area. Even my sonís friends have given in and feel they must use shaved bats to keep up because everyone else is using them.
I personally do not borrow other players bats and ask that no one use my bats, I clearly mark them and ask new players that donít know me (nicely) not to use my Bats. This really pisses off some people but too bad, they should have their own bat. I take 3 Bats to every tournament so I wonít need to borrow some elseís bat and suggest Players bring an extra and not borrow bats unless youíre absolutely sure itís not altered. Maybe we should punish players for using some elseís altered bat for being naive. Still donít think the Coach should be punished.
theBull
Aug. 25, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Bull
You should quit worrying about me and more about your sons dishonest teammates and the people you play with.
Aug. 25, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
bull i'm with You.i bring a bunch of bats,4-6 bats(and i'm kidded quite a bit about it,but better safe then sorry) and only use my own.for senior play,i carry 5 senior bats,just in case.if i have bats that need breaking in i allow the kids to use them,but like you i protect my gamers.

it may seem like a losing battle,but it needs to be fought by us.....
Aug. 25, 2011
stick8
1238 posts
It's bad enough there are shaved bats but one thing that I don't understand is why D & E players shave their bats. I've umped a fair number of D & E games this year and have witnessed far too many hr's for that level. In USSSA, hr's are an out in D. In E it's an inning ending out plus an offensive ejection. Why those players who shave their bats would take a risk in potentially hurting their team, especially in E, is beyond me.
Aug. 25, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1934 posts
Stick-as usual an astute observation. I can't either-they sandbag down to D and E and shave their bats. Geez, last time we played D I got out my Orange Crush and still hit 3 out=all for outs. I hate to make outs-even 300 foot plus ones.

Stick-Dave and I talked today-he is looking forward to meeting you this weekend in Lansing.
Aug. 25, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
webbie,stick -i just don't understand them either,like why would ya do it knowing it can cost your team,its their ego's,some get off on the DBO,and brag about them,oh and they weren't trying to hit them out either,yeah right.i have hit maybe 10 in my lifetime that went for outs.
Aug. 25, 2011
obagain
Men's 50
56 posts
Yea we picked up a guy a few years ago who was supposed to be good.
He could hit the ball out for sure, we were not allowed any HR, they were inning ending outs.
He hits one out while yelling boom his first AB, I remind him we dont get any HR and he just shruds.
Next AB he hits one out, again yelling boom and walks back into the dugout smiling, the bases were loaded with no outs at the time.
I ask him why he did that and he tells me he hits HR, he doesnt care because it is just league.
I am not sure what happened to him but those were his only 2 AB with my team.
Aug. 26, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1934 posts
Yelling 'Boom?'--what a great and telling story.
Aug. 27, 2011
stick8
1238 posts
Webbie unfortunately I won't be in Lansing. I had to work this morning (my business come first) so the way scheduling worked it was more convenient for me to be at Liberty Park in Sterling Heights, MI umpiring the E divisionals. Umpire cap on: let the E guys hit all the hr's they want, it'll make my games go faster. Umpire cap off player cap on: Webbie you are exactly right. Why players would sandbag to the lower levels is beyond me? Back in the day I and the rest of us always aspired to play up.
Aug. 27, 2011
stick8
1238 posts
Obagain, perhaps he thought someone from Resmondo was watching him? lol
Aug. 27, 2011
stick8
1238 posts
Mad Dog I wish I could say I did that!! just kidding liol
Aug. 27, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1934 posts
We played up and sometimes took some fearful beatings. We played Steeles on Fri nite here and they beat us 48-1, but Sat. They only beat us 33-26-our team got over the 'awe' and gave them a game. We got better-as you can only do when you play the best.You watch and learn.Kids seem to be afraid to do that, or just want to be a big fish in a goldfish bowl.
Aug. 27, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3921 posts
stick wishing for what.....

obagain,yeah it seems like these kids are selfish,but i feel we brought it on ourselves with the leniency we have given them with our society now a days.

webbie exactly what a teacher told us when i went from grade school to high school,you are now the little fish in the big fish pond.
Aug. 27, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Stick, miss ya out in Lansing. Things have gone well even without you.
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