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Discussion: Amazing-another one we've never seen before

Posted Discussion
Aug. 18, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
Amazing-another one we've never seen before
Stick8-you'll love this one. In league today we had a guy on first and one out. The batter hit a medium deep fly to left. The runner, thinking there was 2 out took off and rounded second, taking about 3 steps toward third before we got his attention. He cut back across to first, without retouching second, reaching first when the throw got away from the first baseman, and then was able to go to second and beat the throw from the first baseman. The first baseman never touched first base with the ball to double him up, however is he automatically out for not retouching second on the way back to first??? He did make it back to second untouched. Our umpire did not call anything and he remained on second.
Thanks.

btw-I think he is out automatically.
Aug. 19, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
mark that is an appeal play,the defense needs to make an appeal for the ump to be able to rule....
Aug. 19, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
mad dog-did he fully miss the base?-remember he ended up a second. You're probably right it is an appeal, but am curious to hear from stick and see if he has ever seen that one. Remember, in order he touched first, second, first, and second. Sounds like Deja Vu.
Aug. 19, 2011
birdie
Men's 60
683 posts
Mark, I would think that the tag was not valid and the runner would have been out on appeal because he did not touch the bag going back to first. Thanks Harry

I will get back to you on ROFSAGLMAO!!!!
Aug. 19, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
groundhog day....lol.....no as long as the umps did not get an appeal from the defense,and the runner was not tagged and the ump told why they were tagging him(unless he was off the base),or first touched for an appeal by 1b,runner is safe.this not an automatic out,say like a force out is.
Aug. 19, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
This can be made into a made for TV movie! What about the price of cherries in Des Moine? LOL
Aug. 19, 2011
cal50
Men's 50
284 posts
Yes, it is an appeal play. But throw this into it. What if the person rounds second as described, coach telling him to go back to first, he misses second on way back, goes back to first, but by not looking sees that the fielder dropped the ball in the outfield, no catch, so he goes back to second.
Aug. 19, 2011
cal50
Men's 50
284 posts
I meant did not see that the fielder dropped the ball in the outfield.
Aug. 19, 2011
stick8
1296 posts
Webbie that is an appeal play. For example it's the same thing if a batter hits a triple and misses second on the way to third.
Aug. 19, 2011
cal50
Men's 50
284 posts
Similar thing is the 4th out rule. If a person is on second and third, fly ball, both tag. They appeal the runner on second leaving too soon, ump calls him out, but the run counts. So then they appeal the runner on third leaving to soon to keep the run from scoring, he also left too early, ump calls him out.....4 outs for the inning.
Aug. 19, 2011
cal50
Men's 50
284 posts
It would not be an appeal play in this scenario. bases loaded 2 out, down by 2, batter hits one down the right field line past the right fielder, all score, but the batter missed first base on way to second. Right fielder retrieves the ball thinking game is over and walking in, has ball in hand inadvertently steps on first base. No appeal necessary, batter is out, no runs score.
Aug. 19, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
cal,a runner has always been assumed to have touched any base they have passed,so it is now an appeal play,so the right fielder would have to tell the ump he was appealing the batter/runner missing first to get the out.

Aug. 19, 2011
stick8
1296 posts
Cal50, going by USSSA rules using your first scenario I'd have to look but I'm pretty certain a defensive team can't make an appeal on another base runner after three outs are recorded. In that scenario perhaps the defensive team should have appealed the runner leaving from third first instead of the runner leaving second? In your second scenario I have to disagree simply because the rightfielder or another defensive player has to verbally make an appeal to the umpire, that is if the ball is still live. If the home plate umpire calls "ball game' then any live ball appeal is wiped out.
SSUSA may have different rules regarding this.
Aug. 19, 2011
stick8
1296 posts
Mad Dog how would you call this one: No one on base no outs. Batter hits a groundball to short. Shortstop bobbles it, picks it up throws to first but the runner beat the throw by two steps and did not touch first base. Does the ump call the batter runner safe? Does the ump not make a call? Can the first baseman tag him or does he have to utilize a verbal live ball appeal before tagging him? Or should the ump have called the batter runner out after the firstbaseman caught the ball because trhe batter runner never touched first?
Aug. 19, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
ump calls B/R safe,as he is assumed to have touched the base by passing it,now before the runner can get back to first,the first baseman either touches him or 1b and tells the ump that he is appealing the B/R of missing 1b,if the runner gets back before any of this is done,then he is safe.

on the right fielder,you can have a dead ball appeal and still get that out and no one can score,i have done it and have got the out with no one scoring.it had our game go to extra innings and we won b/c of a dumb mistake by the B/R.


oh B/R = equals batter/runner for the ones who didn't know....
Aug. 19, 2011
VINNY LV
Men's 50
178 posts
1st baseman shouldn't have to appeal. Ump shouldn't make call until 1st baseman tags runner or touches base or runner touches base safely.. A good ump will not make a call until play is completed..

a play can always be appealed as long as (1) umps have not left field of play (2) pitcher & all infielders have left fair territory
Aug. 19, 2011
cal50
Men's 50
284 posts
Stick8, that is the only time when you can have 4 outs in 1 inning. The 4th out scenario.
This link is an example of it happening in the majors.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Rare-four-out-play-helps-Dodgers-down-Diamondb?urn=mlb-155380

mad dog, the umpire is to make no call, safe nor out if the runner misses first. It is not an appeal play at first base.
Aug. 19, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
Stick8-as long as the first baseman was touching first-the ump needs to call him out right then. A batter/runner is not deemed to have reached a base until he touches it. I think!?!? I sure can't find where it says that they will consider a base touched when you pass it.
THEN, what if our guy had rounded second, BUT MISSED THE BASE,and got 3 steps past and then cut straight back to first. Is he deemed to have touched second, or is it then a legal return to first???????
The more we discussed our play, the more we ended up on it being an appeal play, too.

I love this game!!!!!!
Aug. 19, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
I have heard the 4th out scenario before. I would like to know if it really is legal.
Aug. 19, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
ok cal,here ya go,straight from an umpires mouth.this was for a yankee game they were discussing,but you can ask the question there if you like about this.

http://www.softballfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1071312&page=2

like i said once the B/R passes a base,he is considered safe as if he touch it,but is subject to an appeal for missing if done before he gets back to the base.what do you do if he hits one in the gap and misses first on the way to second,you must appeal it........
Aug. 19, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
ok cal went and looked it up,you owe me a beer for this one.ASA rule book in the umpires section.....


L. Missing First Base Before the Throw Arrives. When a runner passes
first base before the throw arrives, they are considered to have touched
the base unless properly appealed. On appeals involving the double
base, when the batter-runner touches the white rather than the colored
portion and a play is made, the same procedure applies. When an
appeal is made in both situations, it must be made prior to the runner
returning to first base while the ball is live.
EXCEPTION: If a play is being made from first base foul territory, or
102
RULES SUPPLEMENT
an errant or missed throw pulls the defensive player into foul territory,
the runner may touch the white or colored portion of the base. This is
not considered missing the base.
M. Fourth-Out Appeal. An appeal may be made after the third out of an
inning as long as it is made properly. The appeal must be made on
a runner who has scored but missed a base or left a base too soon.
EXAMPLE: One out with runners on first and third base. The batter
hits a fly ball that is caught. Both runners leave their base before the
caught ball is touched. An appeal is made at first base for the third out.
The defense then makes an appeal at third base before all infielders
leave the infield. The runner on third base should be called out, and
the run does not count.
N. E nd of Game. When a situation arises that could lead to an appeal
by the defense on the last play of the game, umpires should wait until
all infielders have crossed the foul line on their way to the dugout
before leaving the infield. If teams line up for “high-fives” there is little
chance for an appeal even if the infielders have not crossed the foul
line. Umpires should leave the field at this time. No appeal can be
made once the umpires leave the field.
2. BALL ROTATION PROCEDURE.
Many local associations now use the same ball rotation procedure that
Aug. 19, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
Ok mad dog-great work on that one. But how about our play where the guy misses second on a caught fly ball and goes directly back to first. Is he deemed to have touched second to where he must retouch second to return legally to first?
Aug. 19, 2011
stick8
1296 posts
Webbie in that situation the runner has to touch second before going back to first. Here's another one for you: Stick is on second, Webbie is on first, 1 out. Einstein hits one in the gap for a double. I come around to score but before I do I lean over to pick up the bat but don't touch the plate. Fearing a throw at the plate and being the world class speedster you are you pass me and touch the scoring plate. Is their a call that could be made in this scenario?
Aug. 19, 2011
stick8
1296 posts
Cal50 that would be baseball and mad dog referenced it for ASA. In all the years I've played and umpired I confess I've never come across that nor have I ever heard of that rule. You got me curious if USSSA has it. I'm umpiring our USSSA Class B states tomorrow so I'll ask the guys in my crew about it. Since I'm forever on the learning curve thanks for sharing.
Aug. 19, 2011
cal50
Men's 50
284 posts
mad dog, I have to do a little more research myself on that one. It doesn't make sense to me, have to do some searching. Thanks for the copy of the rule.
Aug. 19, 2011
Freddie
Men's 55
108 posts
Hey Mark, there's no over running the bases to be safe. Rule book reads that the runner has to retouch any base(s) that he touched before he can return to tag up. Who's to say that the umpire saw the runner miss the base because he is watching the fielder make the catch, to be safe the runner should touch the bases going back.
Aug. 19, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
hey i was/am with you on it also,but that is the rule,like you said it doesn't make sense at all.

stick look at the other post of mine that was for mlb,they are kind of the same,delay safe call for them.

webbie like i said,once a runner passes a base they are assumed to have touched it,if they haven't then an appeal must be made by the defense to get the out,it doesn't matter which way they are going.

stick i would say that maybe webbie passing you but that is far fetched as i have seen him run....LOL.....i'm thinking if done right there could be 2 outs here,1 for passing the runner an auto call by the ump and an appeal call for an out for you not touching the plate.i have been in that situation you describe at the plate and have come dang near missing the plate....

hey guys they have an umpire section over at www.softballfans.com board,we go round and round over there,of course not me as i'm very congenial with them....LOL.....
Aug. 19, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
Stick-If I touch the plate I am out in senior ball anyway. lol
With my blazing speed however, I may have gone by so fast the umpire never saw me pass you. Passing you I am out, but in senior ball i might give the play a pass for safety reason for you pulling the bat out of the way. What do you think.

By the way, was Einstein using a rolled bat????? Easy Joe-JK.

Mad dog- we need to race as you have impugned my speed. Old legs at 25 feet at worlds in Phoenix-be there or be shamed!!!
Aug. 19, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
hey no prol,i get to start us tho...DOH,LOL.......
Aug. 21, 2011
stick8
1296 posts
LOL, Webbie because of your world class speed you touched the plate while I was picking the bat up before I did. By rule you would be automatically out for passing me and if they appealed that I didn't touch the plate I'm out also so mad dog is correct, that is presuming the umpire saw it. I actually had regular ball in mind when asking that question but I think it would apply to senior ball as well.
Aug. 21, 2011
stick8
1296 posts
Cal50 I asked the guys in our crew yesterday about the 4th out rule, one guy heard of it but everyone else said they've never heard of it in USSSA. To be sure I e-mailed that scenario to our national UIC, Rick Roberson.
Aug. 21, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
stick as i was researching for cal's other situation(passed base)i came across the fourth out in ASA and it is there..didn't look for it in usssa tho....


stick,i still want to know how webbie was able to catch you tho,did you take a coffee break between 3rd and home,stop to talk with the 3rd base coach,what happen......LOL....
Aug. 21, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
mad dog-ever hear the tale of the snail and the roadrunner????
Aug. 21, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
stick8-that's what I said-passing you I am out. Ah, yes, you did not touch either-missed that in the scenario by reading at the speed of snails.
Aug. 21, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
Stick-what's wrong with you-you know you have to touch the plate--cost us 2 runs!!!! lol
Aug. 21, 2011
stick8
1296 posts
I know, my bad Webbie. When I make a mistake it's usually a pretty major blunder!!
Aug. 21, 2011
stick8
1296 posts
Mad Dog, I thought I was hauling pretty good but Webbie must have turned on the afterburners!! lol All kidding aside I've seen runners pass runners in front of them quite a few times in mens ball but not in senior ball. For me I can't imagine how a runner couldn't see his teammate running in front of them let alone pass him. Strange things happen in this game.
Aug. 21, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
yeah have seen it also stick,i have come close also,to passing and being passed b/c of a hi fly that your not sure that it is going over/hitting the fence,or might be caught.both are looking to see what is gonna happen,most of the time it happens right at first base.
Aug. 22, 2011
stick8
1296 posts
To me if that happens that's an inexcusable mistake.
Aug. 22, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
Stick-they're called Senior Moments. I've never done that but am waiting for it to happen. My team tried to clock my speed around the bases the other day-the sundial worked just fine!
Aug. 22, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
webbie,did ya run out of sunlight or did you start in the morning.......DOH,LOL....

yeah stick it is,but when ya get 2 runners watching the ball to see what is gonna happen,i can see something going wrong,specially down at first.
Aug. 22, 2011
stick8
1296 posts
I suppose Webbie and Mad Dog but to me one would have to be drunk or blind to pass a runner ahead of him. A senior moment to me is forgetting how many outs there are, what the count is when your batting or if your in the field forgetting where the runners are.
Aug. 22, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
Which way to run around the bases............
Aug. 22, 2011
stick8
1296 posts
LOL Webbie, I actually saw that once at a festival tourney. One of the funnier things I've seen. He was so drunk but somehow he even coerced the baserunners to reverse directions. The whole team erupted with laughter and then when they went out to play defense they got 20 fielders to go out. talk about a circus!!
The things that happened when we were young.
Aug. 22, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
Stick-we have to trade stories someday-we actually had a switch hitter and reputed 'funny weed' imbiber that forgot he was batting right handed and ran to third on a grounder to short, came back to the base and led off toward second. If I had not seen it.......
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