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Discussion: REALLY, WHY ARE THERE LESS TEAMS?

Posted Discussion
Sept. 3, 2011
southpaw
Men's 60
729 posts
REALLY, WHY ARE THERE LESS TEAMS?
I know that too few teams in a tourney is a legitimate reason for not attending. I also know that limited competition is a valid reason for players not being involved, but are those the only reasons? Finances certainly is a major factor in that entry fees continue to escalate. Most teams are not sponsored. Tourneys extended over too many days seems to be a subject that needs to be addressed. I am sure there are many other impediments; what do you think?
Sept. 3, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4311 posts
I have always said there are too many tournaments to pick from. I'd bet there are a half dozen every weekend or close to it to pick from between the assn's out there to choose from.
Second is players cost factor.
If you just look here at the offerings for TOC qualifiers and the number of teams that were in it, then go to the places where held and count fields to do the math on numbers, I see that most T's could be done in 2 days and save the player cost for a day. A few like Reno, PHX, World Natl's in Yolo could not, but some T's only had 12 or 24 teams.
Even the Spring Nat'l in Winterhaven might be able to to a 2 dayer given the number of fields available. Not sure there.
a lot depends on how early you start as well as how late you run it at night. Assn cost sometimes goes up if they need the lights as well.
Time or the year could mean wet conditions or heat factoring is also. Mother nature can cause unexpected problems.
In the past I have traveled long distances only to be informed the T was rained out.. that sucks.
I prefer a Sat \Sun event and I know the working players most likely too. Save them from having to take a day off for the most part.
Sept. 3, 2011
coop3636
57 posts
I have never understood why we don't play any night games (besides the cost of lights)
The teams would acutally save money if you charged a bit more and played them on just sat and sundays.
The money you save on missing work and hotel rooms will be more than what lights cost.
We are going to Dalton to play and we will play 2 games on Thursday. To me, this is crazy. You can play this whole tournament Friday - Sunday and probably get more teams.
Just my opinion, but from talking to players, they really don't want to play on Thursday.
I can see maybe the 65-70 age groups playing on Thursday because most of them are retired.
50-55's , alot still have jobs and we all travel alot to play in tournaments.
What does everyone else think?
coop3636
Sept. 3, 2011
coop3636
57 posts
lol
The p[ost above mine was not there when I wrote my thread. It says about the same thing.
Just we wrote it at the same time
Brett
Sept. 3, 2011
Mario
Men's 50
367 posts
A good example of this was this years 50 Major plus nationals in Dalton. There were only 2 teams. They had us play the best out of 5. We started on Friday morning and ended up at noon on saturday. Why could we have not played on just Saturday and Sunday?
Sept. 3, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4311 posts
Mario,
I still see the best of 5 going on, and that could actually be done is a day.
I personally think an offer to either refunding fees or a choice for credit to an event of choice should be offered. after all, it is not the teams fault nor is it the assn's fault there were on;y 2-3 teams. Chances are the teams would still be in the red due to travel arrangements that can't be refunded or cancelled.

Sept. 3, 2011
17Black
Men's 50
217 posts
Entry fees are a bundle anymore.

We paid in the high $400's to go to Lansing last weekend. Unless your lucky enough to have a sponsor with deep pockets, who already pay for uniforms, league fees, umps and more, only a couple of touraments a year can be had except for the wealthier backers-----especially in a bad economy.

I also agree with the above posters-not every senior player is retired. I'm only 52. Using vacation time to play friday afternoon (or morning) games is silly. BUT I don't enjoy playing under the lights much anymore either, so I guess it is what it is???

AND the coaches have to be at many tournaments on Thursday or sooner for the meeting?????

There might be MORE teams playing senior ball nationwide than ever before, but I don't have the numbers. All the guys who were playing late 70's through the 90's are all of age now-------there aren't any young kids playing and the open leagues around me in Cleveland have mostly folded up.

But many of those teams playing in leagues don't go to tournaments.

The same teams seem to go to the same tournaments and everybody keeps playing many of the same teams over and over again. We're from Ohio and play in Vegas every November and also wind up playing the same teams we did the last year.

I sometime miss when I started playing softball around 79 or 80 and there weren't many divisions, everybody went to tournaments and played whomever the draw was against. The ASA tournament in Cleveland drew 200-300 teams back in the day. It was fun.

MAYBE with the 5 runs per inning rule, we could have some tournaments and group everybody together (no open inning in last inning??) and no other equalizers???

The guys who hit singles and doubles could play AAA and Major Teams and compete if we bunched everybody together once in a while with no other equalizer rules-----
Sept. 3, 2011
17Black
Men's 50
217 posts
One other thing, we had 14 guys in Lansing on Saturday, but only 10 for the seeding games on Friday as some guys just can't get out of work, especially a couple of our guys who teach in high school and school just started last week------kind of soon to be taking days off:)

I understand why there are seeding games I guess, but maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to just get started on Saturday with the meat and potatoes of a tournament? Play some flights to guarantee games as opposed to the seeding games, most tournaments you could still get a minimum of five games? Even if a lot of teams didn't show up at a particular tourament you could play teams in your flight twice or "something"---------That would eliminate the friday day games though-maybe even the night games except if local teams are in it??
Sept. 3, 2011
hombre
Men's 60
220 posts
The major reason that teams with only three or four in their bracket play three days sometimes is that the amount of money paid to the sanctioning organization is predicated on how many motel rooms are rented by players and how much money is brought into the community by the tournament. Many of these tournaments have several empty fields and umpired not working, but will have teams wait 3 or more hours to play. In some tournaments like the SPA Nationals, we are talking about big bucks.

One of the reasons for seniors not playing night games is the inability of the older players to see the ball at night, no matter how good the lighting. When you're 50, it's not a big issue, When you're 65 or 70, it's another story.
Sept. 3, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
17Black, great points. I do remember playing in the Metro Cleveland qualifier in the mid and late 70s and we would have 230 teams in the A division and another 30 or so in Open. You just signed up, showed up, and played whoever was in the other dugout.

Not to mention there would be local weekend tourneys with anywhere from 30 teams to Maple Heights where there would be 80+ teams.

Sept. 4, 2011
17Black
Men's 50
217 posts
Gary 19------yup then ASA's were fun in Cleveland until you needed an abacus to keep up with all the divisions they came up with :) Also played in those Maple Hts tournaments. Maple kept good stats and gave the top three players (I think by batting average) at every position and gave them an individual plaque stating 1st team all Maple, 2nd Team all Maple and etc.

Back then, I just don't remember ever caring about how many home runs the team we were going to play might hit--or did hit--we just went out and played the game, win or lose.

Are you still in Northeast Ohio???
Sept. 4, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
I grew up in Maple, played AAA and AAAA there from '75 to '82. Played in many Maple tournaments, finished 2nd in the A division twice and the Open once. Elmer Gerlock did the best job of stats EVER, and well before computers. All by hand.

Still here. Living in Shaker, and playing in Barberton, though might be looking to get a bit closer to home next year. Six years of 85-mile roundtrips twice a week is getting a bit tiring.

Where are you at these days?

Sept. 5, 2011
17Black
Men's 50
217 posts
Gary19: Living in Concord Ohio (near Mentor) and playing in Painesville (Lake County over 50) with Shannon Fence in League play & SPA tourneys and CBC Legends in SSUSA 50AAA tournaments.

Shannon is now moving to over 60 for SSUSA----I've got quite a few years to wait for that :)

We only have four teams in the Lake County over 50 League. Been that way for years------and in 2007 we only had three teams for one season. Needless to say (after playing each other 8-9 times each during league play) by the time the league tournament comes around, we all know each other "pretty darn well"

Most guys in our league live between Willoughby/Eastlake and Ashtabula, with a handful of guys coming from Cuyahoga County.

Doesn't Maple have an over 50 League, I think?????

GOOD LUCK
Sept. 5, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Maple does have one, but sounds a lot like your Painesville league. Usually only 4 teams, same 4 every year, this year they had 5 for the first time but the new team did not win a game all summer.

Painesville would be quite a hike for me too. Mayfield Village has one that is much closer, I might look into there next summer.

Who is on your Shannon Fence and CBC teams? Just wondering if it is anyone I remember from back in the day. If you prefer you can email me at gsommers19@hotmail.com.
Sept. 6, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1955 posts
Gary19-did you make up a new alias--17Black--everybody knows you don't play, identify yourself or know anything about softball so you make up someone to have a conversation with that actually knows you???????

Just kidding-Honestly, Kidding, Gary. Long story if you are new on the message board, 17Black-welcome.

Doesn't almost everyone our age have trouble seeing, especially at dusk in night games. We go right into the dumper when it gets dark. Our vote is no night games. We also have a lot of guys working, too. Fridays get tough for some of them. And, we sponsor ourselves, 'ouch'.
Sept. 6, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Oh great, now I am being accused of having conversations with myself. :(

No, he is a completely separate person. I have received an email from him, he is from this area, but is definitely NOT me.
Sept. 6, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1955 posts
Gary-seriously, I was kidding-you know me by now-always tongue in cheek. Couldn't resist. Sorry if I offended you.
Sept. 6, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Mark, I was teasing too. I completely knew you were kidding.

You know my skin is not that thin. :)
Sept. 7, 2011
17Black
Men's 50
217 posts
LOL, I've actually been on this site a couple years just don't post that often.

Now I have been known to talk to myself, but usually after swinging at a bad pitch :)

But my real name is "Gary" too....>
Sept. 7, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1955 posts
Gary-I hope we get more people to post like you have-welcome to the board. This venue can become constructive, if we discuss the issues and leave the personal stuff out. Some of us even have fun on here--I know I have my tongue in my cheeks probably too much.
If you have monitored the board, then you understand the dig at Gary19. Dave Dowell told me a long time ago that Gary19 is a good ballplayer. I have enjoyed some of the guys getting on him like he does not know anything.
Sept. 7, 2011
FOFO
Men's 50
165 posts
It's crazy to show up on Friday only to play 2 games, especially in the 50 division. I would rather play twice as many on Saturday and save myself a day of hotel charges.
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