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Discussion: O.K., WHO ARE THE MOST SOLID AA TEAMS AND ARE YOU HEADED TO DALTON THIS THURSDAY? (especially 60 AA)

Posted Discussion
Sept. 10, 2011
southpaw
Men's 60
733 posts
O.K., WHO ARE THE MOST SOLID AA TEAMS AND ARE YOU HEADED TO DALTON THIS THURSDAY? (especially 60 AA)
My team, Strykers 60s, will be there. Just wondering who to be wary of!!
Sept. 13, 2011
Ho
230 posts
In the 60 AA, I think THE BOMB SQUAD, DOC MARTENS and DAYTON LEGENDS are strong contenders.

In the 60AAA the WINDSOR CHIEFS

In the 50's DAYTON LEGENDS VICKERS

In the 70's BRENNAN'S AKRON 70's.

Ho
Sept. 13, 2011
JBTexas
Men's 65
262 posts
First anyone who thinks Doc Martens is a AA is crazy, they are closer to a major team. We played them last year in Dalton and that is one hell of a team.
Sept. 13, 2011
Ho
230 posts
I think what might have made that "crazy" person drop DOC MARTENS to AA were the following results from two SPA tournaments:
U.S.Utility 18 DEoc Martens 9; Brooklins 21 Doc M 13; Hawks Nest 21 Doc's 17; Windsor 25 Doc's 20; Brantford 15 Doc's 13; Hawks Nest 17 Docs 2; Siveradoos 18 Docs 2; Miama 25 Docs 8; Miamai 21 Docs 19 and Docs 22 Legends 21.

Being outscored by a 20.2 to 12.5 score was probably another reason. Last year they were very strong but as you can see..this year they are not.

Ho
Sept. 13, 2011
stig1
Men's 60
32 posts
I see in SSUSA Doc Martens is still AAA. What were the results for the SSUSA tournaments they played this year. First I thought you had to have the results of three tournaments to appeal.
Sept. 13, 2011
Ho
230 posts
You are correct...but I don't know the scores from the other two SPA tournaments they were blown out of (I think one was Sylvania).

You may be interested that SPA has PFEIFFER GREY SOCKS 75's listed Major but SSUSA has them AAA.

Different organizations have different ratings based on what happened in their tournaments.

Ho
Sept. 18, 2011
JBTexas
Men's 65
262 posts
Anyone notice how poor AA Doc Martens walked thru Dalton without one game being close??? Poor decision by someone.
Sept. 19, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
yeah it was ugly for the AA div with them down there,can't see how that should happen when they were kicking butt last year in AAA.....

the AAA div seemed real balanced tho.....
Sept. 19, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Little, if anything, more pathetic than old guys dropping to the Freshmen division just to win what, I don't know.

Forget blaming the organization, sounds like these guys might need a severe lesson in pride.
Sept. 19, 2011
stig1
Men's 60
32 posts
This whole Doc Martens episode stinks. They are rerated two weeks before the tournament and then rip through the AA. They should have been placed in the AAA division after the round robin. The other teams were not happy with accusations of sandbagging by Doc Martens. If that is true the team should be banned. Everyone knew this team didn't belong in AA except Ridge.
Sept. 19, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Sounds like Ridge might have some culpability in this, but at what point are the players held responsible?

Is it that important to win the Freshmen division? Have these guys never won anything before? Ever? Why is winning this way that important to them?
Sept. 19, 2011
southpaw
Men's 60
733 posts
They are not a AA team. The "gossip" I heard was that they were disbanding after this tourney anyway, so requested to be re-classified, so that they could go out a winner. We should all get a refund!
Sept. 19, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
If this is the case, all of Doc Martens players should be classified as AAA & major for one year. Only a total of two of those players can play together during that period. Anymore than that and they would be classfied as a Major team. That keeps teams or players from coming up with cockabull reasons for move downs.
Sept. 19, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Anyone who even requests a movedown should be banned. Between the special bats, whacky rules, and requested movedowns prideless old guys could be an epidemic. :)

How many Open teams in the 70s ever requested to move down to A? It didn't happen around here that I can recall, though my memory could be fading.
Sept. 19, 2011
hombre
Men's 60
220 posts
After seeing Doc Martens playing Strykers, it was obvious that they weren't a AA team. On the second day I asked Ridge why he was letting them play AAA. He told me how they were just barely getting by and that there were stronger AA teams in the tournament. I don't remember the exact wording, but he said that they were a weak team that wasn't doing well in the tournament so far. What a crock.
Sept. 19, 2011
southpaw
Men's 60
733 posts
we lost our first pool game to Memphis in the bottom of the 7th with 2 outs, 20--19. We lost our first dble elim in the bottom of the 8th with 2 outs, 21--19. After that, we had 4 injured players and were not competitive. Our second pool game was against DC, score: 28-10.

We were not going to win the tourney, by any means, but it's nice to know we were sooo appreciated! SPA may not get my $650 next year.
Sept. 20, 2011
Vito
Men's 60
20 posts
I play for Doc Martens. To all of your negative comments: We played in three SPA tournaments. Our record was 2-15. We appealed it acccording to the standards for SPA, Not like some teams who fly under the radar by not playing in enough tournaments in that Association to be rated.. This appeal was done after the three Spa tournaments.. When we talked with SSUSA they said they would consider the same thing. We have one 67, four 65's, and these players play key positions,and three who will be turning 65.. As for pool play games we play hard, we don't lay down, as some of the teams appeared to do. Our team is made up of players who all get along very well together. I am so dissappointed in the comments in this discussion. Someone talked about pride..does this make you proud to join in a negative discussion when you dont have all the facts. Defense wins tournaments and we played solid defense and that was the difference. Although some of the games seemed lopsided, most of them were close going into the 7th. the 28-10 game was 16-10 going into the 7th. come on you guys get a hobby, go fishing, find a way to relax.If anyone has any other comments that I didn't address please direct it toward me, and I will gladly respond.
Sept. 20, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Someone please post the scores for Doc Martens games this past weekend? Vito makes it sound like games were closer than others make them out to be. Vito, I personally don't think a 16-10 game is really that close to begin with, being losing team only score 10 runs in 6 innings prior to open one. Also, I don't feel anyone should be able to drop within the calendar year of the current season. If you get bumped, you take your lumps for the year. Then appeal to move down. It will eliminate this happening in the future. JMO
Sept. 20, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
vito,this same team was tearing it up in dalton last year as a AAA team,you guys finished in the top 3 if i remember right.this is where i think a lot have become a little suspect of your dropping down,just saying.
Sept. 20, 2011
Vito
Men's 60
20 posts
Pricer are you comfortable going into the bottom of the 7th with a six run lead. our team does have history, but on the same tocken would you go to a tournament if you know you are going to get beat up.. we all exxpect to go with a chance to win
Sept. 20, 2011
SSUSA Staff
1268 posts
DOC MARTENS @ DALTON (SPA)
"Other" Association Results Data Dump

POOL PLAY -
Doc Martens (28) - Strykers (10)
Doc Martens (20) - Kentuckiana (11)
Doc Martens (14) - Dayton Legends (9)

BRACKET PLAY -
Doc Martens (27) - KC Thunder (16)
Doc Martens (24) - The Bomb Squad (13)
Doc Martens (20) - Blue Chips (16)
Doc Martens (15) - The Bomb Squad (8)

TOURNEY RECORD - 7-0 (against 6 different opponents)

RUN DIFFERENTIAL - +65 Runs (Average: +9.3 per game)

Sept. 20, 2011
Vito
Men's 60
20 posts
mad dog that was last year. a lot can change in one year as we all know. how many of the other teams in AA were AAA last year
Sept. 20, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Doc Martens Scores from the past weekend

POOL PLAY -
Doc Martens (28) - Strykers (10)
Doc Martens (20) - Kentuckiana (11)
Doc Martens (14) - Dayton Legends (9)

BRACKET PLAY -
Doc Martens (27) - KC Thunder (16)
Doc Martens (24) - The Bomb Squad (13)
Doc Martens (20) - Blue Chips (16)
Doc Martens (15) - The Bomb Squad (8)

Docs avg +21 runs per game scored
Gave up just under 12 per game.

Vito, thatís a 10 run differential here. Please don't bring ages of your teammates into the discussion, It's senior ball and you have choices based on age at where you can play. If you gonna use the age card, have those players go play where they belong then. Proof is in the pudding. You were allowed to play in the wrong division. Huge mistake on SPA's part here. They make one team happy and piss off multiple teams.
Sept. 20, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Vito, the other teams are not the subject here. Your team is!
Sept. 20, 2011
Vito
Men's 60
20 posts
SSUSA STAFF in those 7 games what was the score going into the 7th. when you have a good open inning and you shut down the other team in the 7th, that happens
Sept. 20, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Vito, you might want to give this one up.

Are you trying to say the 7th inning doesn't count? That those runs have less value?

Is winning the Freshmen division that important to you guys?
Sept. 20, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Vito, how many of these games were you the home team? What was the scores thru 6 innings? We're talking a 10 run diff here per game. You can look at an indivdual game if you like, but the real constant is the avg per game combined. It tells the real story.
Sept. 20, 2011
SSUSA Staff
1268 posts
We only have access to game scores, not game cards. We do not differentiate the partial score of any game in progress until it is a FINAL score.
Sept. 20, 2011
Vito
Men's 60
20 posts
pricer did you play in Dalton. how can you not bring up the other teams, it takes 2 teams to play a game. We do have choices and is has become obvious that by our record this year we can no longer compete in AAA so we have some decisions to make, if you play on a team where EVERYONE gets along so well you try to find a way to keep things together and that is the issue. not every team is that way. we recieve comment all the time about how we get along as a team. why would yo try to disredit this team. Is that what senior softball is about to you
Sept. 20, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Last I heard, final scores are the only ones that matter.
Sept. 20, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Hey hold on there my beleaguered friend. You are so right, it is senior softball and the last I checked there were rules and teams getting along and dancing in perfect harmony is not one of them. It's supposed to be based on talent, in which you indicate you had none in AAA, but found it somewhere during your trip to Dalton. Don't kill the messenger for asking for facts. I'm glad you all enjoy each otherís company as a team. But to the others and me that pay the same kind of money Doc Martens does. We all want the same thing, a level playing field.
Sept. 20, 2011
Vito
Men's 60
20 posts
Gary 19 thanks for the positive input. I'm not saying that at all. how do you get that out of what I said. I'm sorry we had such a good tournament maybe we should have lost a game or two..... I guess we need to look up the meaning of disparaging.
Sept. 20, 2011
Vito
Men's 60
20 posts
Im sorry if I have offended any one, that was not my intent, but we are not just talking about the facts, there were alot of accusations made and I guess I should have stayed calm. I can only wonder how you would react if those comments were made about you teammates. I'm sorry that is got to that level.
Sept. 20, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
This is where this board goes awry. Gary is speaking of facts. The final scores are all that matters in this discussion. But now he was being negative or disparaging. You can't defend the indefensible! So what division do you play in next season Vito? Is it fair that you move to the AAA division again, don't fair well and petition to drop again? I just don't get where you don't see what everyone else is. You were AAA and moved down and won the thing going away. What are your classifications in the other associations? Did they move you down to AA as well?
Sept. 20, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Why would your team even put itself in this position? Play up when at all possible. I would rather be in the middle of my graduating class at Harvard than first at Cleveland State or Eastern Michigan. I would rather be the worst player in MLB than the best in AAA.

Don't challenges count for anything?
Sept. 20, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
What are the accusations being made here?
Sept. 20, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Jeff, I always seem to be "disparaging" on here. Apparently that is the role I have been assigned.

I just don't think Vito will ever get it. Apparently his championship just means that much to him.
Sept. 20, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Just to repeat my comments on another thread. We have too many divisions in each age bracket. None of this would be an issue with an upper and lower for each. At the rate our softball society is going we'll have another couple divisions soon. Don't ask me what they'll be, but you can count on someone wanting one they feel they'll be better off competing in.
Sept. 20, 2011
Vito
Men's 60
20 posts
pricer the thing about writing messages is you can misinterpret what is meant. if you look back at the whole discussion I'm sure you could find things that were offensive. I've appologized twice and yet there are still comments made like Gary 19 made.
Sept. 20, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Vito, I'm missing something here. What did Gary say that was offensive?
Sept. 20, 2011
Vito
Men's 60
20 posts
pricer the last line of his comment about championships and that I dont get it
Sept. 20, 2011
hombre
Men's 60
220 posts
Vito, I don't mean to be disrespectful. I'm not an expert by any means. However, I've been playing senior ball for 8 years from AA to M+. When I watched you play the AA teams in Dalton I was watching an average AAA team. It's just my opinion, but the scores bear it out. It's just unfortunate that the AA teams had to play a team that should have been in the AAA bracket. Look at the scores in the 60 AAA bracket. No team dominated like you did. Again, just my opinion.
Sept. 20, 2011
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Remember this is the same Ridge Hooks and SPA that moved the Indy 60's from 60AA to AAA in 2008 after the round robin during which they experienced much the same success as Doc Martens. The difference is that Indy had been AA all year. Thanks, Mel
Sept. 20, 2011
Donny C
54 posts
I played with the Indy Fog and we did not have the opportunity to play Doc Martens. They were on a roll and I was looking forward to playing them. I enjoy playing a team that is playing well cause when we beat them it is a great feeling. I have played on fair teams that have won tournyments as no doubt most people have in there life. I will not make a statement like they should be in AAA that is up to SUSSA. They made the change according to Doc Martens record current record, and I will not tell them (SUSSA) they are wrong. I will trust them to make good decisions. Doc Martens finished third last year behind Big Daddys and Alamo legends. I played with Big Daddys last year and we had several good games with Doc Martens, winning some and losing some. The scores that Doc Martens racked up this past week only indicate they played very well, there time in the sun and good for them. Wish my team played as well. Donny C.
Sept. 20, 2011
Ho
230 posts
You have to look at the bright side of this post.

SSUSA had finally decided it was OK to list other organizations scores on this web site.

Ho
Sept. 20, 2011
SSUSA Staff
1268 posts
Donny C - SSUSA has made no recent rating changes with respect to Doc Martens. We have had them rated AAA since 10/03/2006 (when they were known as West Michigan Merchants) and have seen no reason to change our rating conclusion.

Ho - Posting these scores, involving one team, was done solely within the context of a specific request for that information. If you wish to post future scores from your SPA tournament, please contact SPA directly for guidance and placement on their web site.
Sept. 20, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
I would think that if SPA thought it was important enough for their members to post scores or communicate with each other, they would create their own message board. But in no way should SSUSA or any other association allow someone elses info, news or scores to be posted.
Sept. 21, 2011
billcoo
35 posts
Any team that averages 20 runs a game is obviously not AA....
I think AA as new tournament teams.....beginners of the tournament circut
Sept. 21, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
billcoo, your last line is an interesting comment. And a good point. Should any teams be lifelong AA, or should that just be "entry level"?
Sept. 21, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Billcoo,
Thought this part of the thread is out of context w\ the Dalton thing If you check scores most anywhere you'll find many AA teams that can & do score 20 a game. Not every game but they do it. Look at some results in NCSSA. Defense is likely the reason. AA IS where a team used to start out or 'entry' but now you enter as AAA until you loose multiple games or t's. Totally new unless you carry over XX number of players from another one.

Gary19,
Teams or mgrs are in a comfort zone. I call it something else, but they fight to stay there. You don't improve unless you observe better teams and play them. Then of course is the collecting of better players that do not reflect a notable reason to re-rate.

Sept. 21, 2011
riverboy1
1 posts
Regarding Doc Martens winning 60 AA this past weekend in Dalton and all the sour grapes about them averaging 21 runs per game. The Dayton Legends also averaged 21 runs per game and The Bomb Squad averaged 20 runs per game. So maybe defense counts a little more than some people think and/or maybe it was just Doc Martens weekend. Either way, congratulations to Doc Martens national championship.
Sept. 21, 2011
southpaw
Men's 60
733 posts
so, does that mean that Dayton and Bomb Squad are AAA as well? just askin!
Sept. 21, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Winning is winning, but at some point it has to be put into context.
Sept. 21, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Who can tell what a team is, or should be?

And the more classifications, the more difficult it becomes.

Two classes would clarify a LOT of this. And make winning a LOT more meaningful, if meaningful wins means anything to anyone anymore.
Sept. 21, 2011
southpaw
Men's 60
733 posts
Gary, you are probably right--having only 2. But there is an inherent problem with that scenario. My team is the perfect example. We are not sponsored, have a terrible manager (me!) and strugle to have enough players. We have played 20+ tournaments over the past 2 years and have won less than 10 games total. I have players leave every year because "I am all about winning" or other similar statements from them.
For me personally, I just love to play and hope just to be competitive. With 2 classifications, I probably would have great difficulty in fielding a team.
Sept. 21, 2011
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Team depth is what really decides how each team ought to be rated. Several AA teams may have a few AAA or possibly major players along with" predominantly "entry level" players. That uaually happens because of the main reason many of us play senior softball.......friendship, fellowship, and camaraderie......along with the will to compete regardless of ratings.
Sept. 21, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
the only prol i see with doc martens,is that last year they were a very good AAA team,they finished 3rd(and could of possible won it) at SPA.your telling me that they had gone that far south to now be an AA team,but then run thru the AA div in the tourney this year...mmmmmmm


southpaw you guys need a new coach...DOH,LOL......
Sept. 21, 2011
southpaw
Men's 60
733 posts
Mad Dog, you're right. My batting average goes up 200 points when I am not the manager!
Sept. 21, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
southpaw,i'm not gonna say anything and be nice to ya on that one......LOL.......









oh hell with it,you saying your avg gets up to .450 when not coaching.......LOL........
Sept. 21, 2011
southpaw
Men's 60
733 posts
MD, you estimated way too high!
Sept. 21, 2011
hitman
Men's 65
306 posts
No .350
Sept. 21, 2011
hitman
Men's 65
306 posts
Just kidding Steve,
Why is it that I get most of your guys out except you???????
Sept. 21, 2011
southpaw
Men's 60
733 posts
because I always bat last and you are tired by the time you get to me in the 4th inning!
Sept. 21, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
JIM YOU GET GUYS OUT WHEN PITCHING.....LOL....
Sept. 21, 2011
Donny C
54 posts
SSUSA: My mistake SSUSA I should have said SPA put Doc Martens down to AA based upon there record this year. River boy is right a few teams averaged over 20 runs a game. Vito, (Doc Martens) said they played solid defense and this is what won them the games. I will agree with this as other teams scored over 20 runs in games also, The team I play on scored over 20 in 2 or 3 games also, same devision. Doc Martens played well, both defense and offense. A comment about Doc Martens "sandbagging runs." One never knows how many runs your opponent will get from the 7th on so a team should score as much as they can. I know of no one who says let us score 3 runs cause we are so much ahead. Is anyone going to get up to bat and make an out on purpose, I think not. I want to get a hit each time I bat and think we all have the same mindset. Congradulations Doc Martens for your victory and I look forward to playing (and beating) you next year. Donny C.
Sept. 21, 2011
hitman
Men's 65
306 posts
Yea, like that pee-rod that just about took my leg off, I'm still wiping from that mess!!!!!!!!
Sept. 22, 2011
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
I wonder if there are differences nationally in what is considered a AA team. Iím thinking of some of the AA teams Iím familiar with. None of them could average 20 runs over a tournamentóthey just donít have enough quality hitters. They might have a big boy or two, but those guys often just hit sky high flies that are easily caught.

And on defense, they would never be able to hold other teams down in single digits. Again, they might have a fielder or two that has good skills, but they have too many team errors to keep the scores low. Booted balls, dumb mistakes, dropped flies if they have to run for them, etc. mean that lots of innings are extended and they sometimes lose by big numbers.

They seldom have an inning, particularly an open inning, where everyone relaxes and they start to hitóthey are tense because they are trying too hard or are behind.

In norCal, they donít often play other AA teams their age, but sometimes AAA or major teams that are 5, 10, even 15 years older. Age makes a difference, but quality usually wins the day and these AA teams donít win many tournaments.

Why do they enter tournaments? Why stay at AA? They usually get along well, may be related, have friends who have played on the same team for decades, or just love playing softball despite their declining (or never-had-em) skills.

Scores like those of AA teams in Dalton seem incomprehensible to me out on the West Coast. But maybe rankings/standards are different when it comes to determining what is a AA team.
Sept. 23, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
omar yeah it is kind of that way all over,but once you get to the big tourney's it changes drastically.the defense becomes way better,and the offense usually has a guy or 2 that can hit it out along with a few .800 hitters.they would compete very well in ncssa and most likely win a tourney or 2.

yeah jim i almost mess myself watching that ball hit at ya.glad it missed.......
Sept. 23, 2011
SSUSA Staff
1268 posts
OK - There are two principal reasons the seeding rounds at the World Championships are scheduled the way they are, with East vs. West whenever possible as the first priority ... One is 'team friendly', so the teams get to play other teams they rarely, if ever, get to play during the 'regular season' ... The other is 'SSUSA friendly' ... We carefully evaluate the results of the seeding games after the tournament to determine if a regional bias in ratings exists within the specific ratings levels (below Major+) ... Over the five years we have done this post-tournament evaluation, we have not encountered any such imbalance within any rating division or age group ...

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