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Discussion: Two levels for each age group

Posted Discussion
Sept. 21, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Two levels for each age group
My opinion is water finds it own level. As you can see with the entire BS with drop downs and reclassifications, you can go on, on, & on with reasons for more than two. But this is tourney ball, not rec lge. The players who want to play for the fellowship and competition will find teams to play on. How many rec players pay the money to register and travel? If someone gonna give me a stupid number, I'm gonna tell you their not rec players then. The problem is the rec or lowest division should have never been created as well as the major plus. Seriously, whom are you looking to cater to? Two divisions are all that is needed. Instead of explaining why we need three, show me some numbers on whom two divisions will effect in a negative way? JMO
Sept. 21, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
If winning watered-down championships is that important, and participation is so dependent on the opportunity to win such devalued championships, why not have 26 classifications (one for each letter) with one-year age ranges?
Sept. 22, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4365 posts
Pricer,
I know a few teams that are really recreational players that attend some travel ball T's... None that play in SSUSA. They go to ASA and on occasion NCSSA. One of them a 60's team actually won a T last year but they played 65 & 70+ teams. Yes they are really rec players but most try to live the part and play.

Actually, one could view it as "catering to" themselves. It is geared to market ability & little as possible given out.

Your rec division does not exist unless you count some of the teams that actually do go to the various events SSUSA included and those that do and there are a few primarily go for the gamer and fellowship as I see it.

Two divisions will be the haves and the have nots.
Sept. 22, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4365 posts
Gary19,
One major watering hole could be considered that "devalued", is the TOC.
An event that is held 2-4 months AFTER about half of the invited teams have stopped playing and some are in the process of regrouping, reforming, moving up in age and or rating and quite frankly not in game shape to play a major T. Some were snow bound for those last few months, if that game ready? Don't think so.

When less than half of the invited who earned the right to attend something important as I feel it is, something isn't right.

Ok you got me, it is Mickey Mouse waiting for them 50 or so miles down the road.

Sept. 23, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Bump!!!!!!!!
Sept. 23, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Jeff, it doesn't seem like many guys are interested in reducing divisions and consequently reducing their chances to win, well whatever it is they think they win.
Sept. 23, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
I just can't fiqure out how you build a team with the thought of competing at the lowest level. Help me here, where is the sense of competition or for that matter PRIDE? I went thru the rankings and the lowest and the highest levels in senior ball are the divisions with the smallest participation. Do you try to build tose two up? Would that be the plan or would you try and force them into the other larger groups? Logic tells me it's the later.
Sept. 23, 2011
ShaneV
Men's 55
382 posts
Two classifications M & AAA:

Current M+ Teams
Pros: larger divisions.
Cons: none.

Current M Teams
Pros: no more worry of being bumped.
Cons: less chance of winning any tournament.

Current AAA Teams
Pros: none.
Cons: none.

Current AA Teams
Pros: save money, play league and rec T's, or play golf.
Cons: none.

Current Rec Teams
huh? what happened?

Just one way to look at it, MHO,
ShaneV
Sept. 23, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Merge the top two and bottom two. That was easy.
Sept. 23, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
And then just let teams find their own level, or none at all. No one ever said everyone is entitled.
Sept. 23, 2011
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
394 posts
There is also another aspect to the supposition of only two divisions that indicates more divisions will affect a tournament in a positive way. I believe that for many teams, it's not so much about winning a medal but rather the opportunity to play teams at or near their own level of play.

SSUSA clearly draws a significant and in my view, a more competitive group of teams than does Huntsman World Senior Games as an example. However, Huntsman will have approx 320 teams attending the 2011 Senior Games and disperse that around through numerous divisions over a two week period and most of these teams are happy and keep coming back, so numerous divisions do work, it all depends on what kind of ball you want to play.
Sept. 23, 2011
Mario
Men's 50
376 posts
I'm with Pricer on this one. We only "need"
2 divisions. Water will find its own level, and so will all the players.
Sept. 23, 2011
titanhd
Men's 50
331 posts
Yep I agree. Two divisions per age group.Competitive & Rec as divisions works great for U-TRIP. Why would it not work for any other association.How did they get it right?
Sept. 24, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Pricer, did you see the latest Ratings Review post above? There are a number of teams that actually appealed to be moved down to AA.
Sept. 24, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
U-trip problem is not the divisions titan. It's the pitching and we all know it. If u-trip pitching rules were like the other associations, I think we all would still be playing u-trip. If your trying be sarcastic, lame shot at it. Also, for the record. If u-trip had not started a senior/masters program before everyone else, we probably would not be having this discussion now. Let's not chop someone else down to raise another up.
Sept. 24, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
pricer i see no prol with utrip pitching,it is underhand softball,why not let the pitcher do some things on the mound to help him/her self.yeah they do look like dancing clowns sometimes,but i see no prol with it.also utrip is way down for teams at their senior programs,we had 7 in 3 different age divs,and this was supposed to a national(mesquite,tx),then mario says he went to one in the midwest,they had them split up for some reason,how can you get a true champ that way......for senior ball we need 3 divs,or there will be teams dropping like fly's.the lower teams will not go to a tourney just to be fodder for the upper teams,why waste money....
Sept. 24, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
The utrip leniency with pitching motion is just fine.

But allowing 3' is absurd. The game is called "slow-pitch" for a reason.
Sept. 24, 2011
titanhd
Men's 50
331 posts
Pricer. No sarcasm. FYI U-trip does not allow faking and all of the other pitching antics in Senior softball.One forward motion.
Sept. 24, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
it is 3' from release,not ground,so unless your dragging your knuckles on the ground,most all pitches will 4' or better off the ground.it also has to be above the knee when it crosses the plate,even tho most umps let it go lower.
Sept. 24, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Yep, that would be correct now! But they lost their interest before they made the change. I pitched utrip for 20 plus years. The utrip game doesn’t come close to resembling the game, as I knew it.
Sept. 24, 2011
garyheifner
360 posts
Sorry, but you guys are nuts. If you go to 2 divisions, attendence will crash. There are a lot of legit AA teams out there and the guys in Cal. have done a very good job in keeping a level playing field for them. My team got moved up to AAA from AA in mid summer. We have beaten AAAs this year but usually with the 11th defender in the middle. 10 on 10, we usually lose. We are going to Phoenix just to see how we do and anyway we already had our plane tickets. There are 2 very good AA teams in the midwest who also got moved up but are not going because they know they can't compete. I didn't say win it all, just don't want to field batting practice for 5 games for the stacked AAA teams. The vision of senior softball was to provide MULTIPLE levels of fair competition for ALL seniors. Just because many of the M and M+ teams have loaded up with top players and now find yourselves drowning in your own creation, leave us average players alone and let us continue to enjoy this great game at our level of ability. Some of you big time players should stop by the AA fields and watch. You will see the same level of hustle, desire and 100 % effort as on the upper levels. You might actually see more total skills surface as the players in AA don't stand at home plate and hit 350 foot Hrs for 7 innings.
Sept. 24, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
A good pitcher will "drag their knuckles" when pitching at the low end of the range for just that reason. Do you realize the speed a pitch needs to carry 50' not getting more than 4' off the ground? This is NOT slow-pitch!


And go and try to find the ump that will call a pitch with legal limit, that crosses the plate, a ball because it is below the knees. These aren't hardball umps.

Gary, do you think if they go to 2 divisions with larger age ranges the brackets will be any smaller than they are now? I don't mean total participation. Who cares that there are 300 teams if my bracket only has 4-6? I am still in a tiny bracket.
Sept. 24, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
well if they won't call it a ball on a pitch that crosses at the ankles and barely getting past the plate,what good are they.pee-poor umps is what i call them,they are also the same idiots who think 8' is to hi for utrip.....

pricer to me not that much has changed,i started playing utrip in the 80's. maybe not as much clowning around on the mound,but they still did.the height has always been 3' from release to 10' hi.to me ASA has changed way more than utrip.

ok lets put it this way,2 divs,maybe 150 teams instead of 300 in the multiple divs we have now,that leaves out around 1800 players(12 players,150 teams) who don't get to play.also the lost revenue to the assoc of the 150 teams not playing..........
Sept. 24, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
I totally agree with you on what they won't call low, and what they do call that they think is high. But that seems to be what it is, which makes Utrip a lousy version of slow-pitch.

Players aren't really "left out". They can just play in their local leagues. Nothing wrong with that, and winning an 8-team, summer-long league might be more of an accomplishment than a 4-team, 2-day AA tournament bracket.

Yes, there would be lost revenue but also reduced costs to offset it.
Sept. 24, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
This is not difficult fellas. Stop looking at the two as they are now. AA will fall into the lower division and a lot of AAA teams will be moved into the upper. Gary H, how many teams are you talking about losing? Take no offense, but I don't think you have a clue! Tourney players will find a way & team to compete. If you’re just looking at having quantity instead of quality at these tourneys, then you & I can just agree to disagree. As far as there being no difference in the pitching in utrip from the 80's. Maybe it's a regional thing, because here in the Great Lakes region, it's now modified. I say that with no sarcasm what so ever. I never in all my years ever got away with throwing pitches as fast as they are allowing today, without getting an exsesive speed warning.
Sept. 24, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1976 posts
Interesting-we are playing utrip state this weekend and they went to 6-12 arc which surprised us. Plus they play 1-1 without a mat and 7 run limit with unlimited home runs using a 40/325 ball (The Classic M they said was 40/325). The games are moving along real well but pretty high scoring. No fast balls for strikes. I found out quickly you cannot overpower the compression on the ball or it doesn't travel as well. A nice easy swing sends it flying.
Sept. 24, 2011
titanhd
Men's 50
331 posts
U-TRIP for Senior is (6-10).Six feet from ground -not more than 10 ft.after leaving the pitchers hand.
Sept. 25, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1976 posts
We know, titan, but that's what we are playing here-12 feet.
Sept. 25, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
webbie the 40-325 ball is ok in temps under 75 degrees,in even colder weather it gets real hard.the 300 comp mark seems to be the water mark for not changing up or down a whole lot.ya don't want to use that ball in hi heat tho.

utrip balls are the classic m (40-325) and the classic + (52-275/300)

and yes you have discovered what i have been saying about these balls,nice easy smooth swing.......

was this a senior tourney,b/c from what i have seen with ours they didn't change(except the faking) anything from the normal utrip rules,tho they did let us use the senior bats in our tourney here in texas...
Sept. 25, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Hey folks, this under/over temp stuff sounds just stupid. Rumor has it if you frezze your bat to around 17.5 degrees and your spikes at 36.75 degrees, your car will get 2.7 more miles to gallon! You guys have got to be kidding me.
Sept. 25, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
pricer you need to go research the studies done,like i have said,temp does effect the ball.tattooball is the man who design the 52 ball,and went thru all kinds of testing for balls to see how to keep them safe for play and not change with temps,instead of just getting on here and claiming you know it doesn't exist,do some research,please.........
Sept. 26, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
No MD, you’re still missing my point. I DON"T CARE ABOUT THE BALLS!!!!!! They're not the problem. Take no offense Tattooball, I think what you have done is admirable. I pitched with all of them and I don't want to hear how this ball hurts less than the other when you get drilled with them. Cause it a bunch of crap. Show me the studies that indicate only four broken facial bones over three for this or that ball. Nobody wants a ball that won't react to the bats being used today, so we can stop talking safety right here and now. We all want to change the equipment, parks & rules for what reason?
Sept. 26, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1976 posts
TMI,TMI,TMI--My gosh-mad dog-it was about 85 and in 4 games we hit about 12 or 13 out and the fences were 300 to about 340 in the power alleys. This classic M ball also has the 'float' we have alluded to, but not the over-bounciness of the 52/275. But the float was pronounced and difficult to judge in the outfield. A hard line drive would head your way and as you prepared to take it on one hop, it would float and instead of a one hopper, you would realize it was a shoestring catchable ball. Conversely, a line drive hit hard straight at you could freeze you and float right over your head. This would not be my ball of choice, either.
Mad dog- pitchers and fielders have been getting hit by balls since the inception of the game. There is no 'safe' ball when it finds its way to your nose, or your eye socket or your 'tender areas'. We ALL know the risks as we go onto the field. Please allow us to make our own decisions as to whether we want to take those risks. I've been taking those risks for 43 years of slow pitch, and have been hurt too many times to remember. But I will still go out there and play until I can't any more.
Sept. 26, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
see guys here is the problem,you won't go research as i have done on the subject.you will come on here saying that all balls will hurt just as much,that is untrue.anything over being hit with 800lbs of pressure does real damage and can kill a human being,most of the 44's get up to 1200 lbs,this is in strike force,the 40's are close to that also(hard C.O.R.).

The 52 ball is less than 500 lbs of strike force when hitting a human being.this all has been documented by testing labs.

i'm not telling you this to make you change,just telling you the truth about the balls,as you all seem to think they are all the same........
Sept. 26, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1976 posts
I didn't say they were all the same, but I guarantee they all hurt when they hit you. I want to play with a 'true' ball, one that flies like it should, that doesn't float, or over bounce, or if you hit it on the nose it doesn't go like it should. I have said repeatedly that it is easier to change the bat than the ball. We always have the option to wear safety equipment. Anything from a simple set of shin guards to full fledged hockey goalie equipment is available and could be worn by anyone at anytime. If we let everything in our lives that could be dangerous scare us-we would never leave our houses and even then would be afraid an airplane would fall on our houses. I know the risks-let me decide if I want to take them.
Sept. 26, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
WEBBIE THAT IS THE PROL,THE 52 BRUISES,THE OTHER BALLS BREAK BONES,THAT IS ALL I'M TELLING YA......
Sept. 26, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1976 posts
I know that and so does everyone else, now. It is not going to change my mind one iota.
Sept. 26, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
and most likely everyone else's,but when they ask for ways to make it safer for the pitcher and still want to use the senior bats,this is all that can be done, without using screens to pitch from behind,and even that is 100% safe.
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