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Discussion: courtesy runners

Posted Discussion
Sept. 28, 2011
rock21
4 posts
courtesy runners
once the hitter reaches second base he should forfeit his right to a runner. Why should anybody who runs out a double need a runner. The advent of a courtesy runner was created for players who had issues running for whatever reason. Why should a faster runner be inserted?
Sept. 29, 2011
rtaven
Men's 65
22 posts
i always lead my team in doubles which would be a trple or home run to normal runners,i usualy walk in to second.i'm in pain and realy appreciate a runner.
Sept. 29, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
Rock-I have had a series of knee operations and lately it has become painful to go 6 or seven games in the outfield. I have had no meniscus for 13 years. I do hit a lot of extra base hits and my team runs for me to prolong the time until I need that next operation which will put me out for at least a year. I don't know anyone that wants to 'hasten' a major knee operation.
Sept. 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
rtaven, regardless. You are finding a way to get to second, apparently repeatedly, so you seem more than capable.

And nothing personal Webbie, but NO outfielder should ever be allowed a CR. If you can cover 1/4 of an outfield for an entire game you can run 65'.
Sept. 29, 2011
birdie
Men's 60
685 posts
Gary 19, I played with Bob and it was painful for me to watch him run. Most of his doubles would have been triples.He also had more singles that could have been double which I think is more of the tell tale sign that he needs a runner. He is a perfect example why the rule is in place. Thanks Harry
Sept. 29, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
Gary, I think you and the tinman from OZ need to have a talk. You have a lot in common. If you had your way with the rules perfectly as they were 30 years ago, you would lose a large number of Senior Players who play through pain for all the right reasons, like camaraderie and competition. I learned from my time in the Marine Corps that you can endure a lot more than you think. It's been 2 years since my doctor said I needed the surgery before that year was done. Thanks to my teammates who run for me to keep me out there. The CR rule helps me put this surgery off. Nothing personal, either.
Sept. 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
I understand I am making a blanket statement here, but anytime anyone goes home to second they can finish the trip.

If the CR rule is necessary, so be it but let's make the last out run and NOT a hand-picked rabbit. If the only idea is to enable injured guys to still play then how can anyone object to that?

Mark, I beielve you play with pain/discomfort. Who at our age doesn't? But I maintain if a guy can cover 1/4 of an entire outfield for a game, or more, he can run 65'. That just seems logical to me. It is a big outfield, and a short trip from base to base.
Sept. 29, 2011
goforit
97 posts
My two cents worth --- I feel that a CR is very important in the game today. I believe i help my team by being able to hit but i do not help them on the base path. If i'm able to get to second base but know i'm not going to score on a single why not give our team the best chance to score a run. I guess by some opinions here i should always stop at first and not do what i can to help my team get a runner in scoring position. I do not like tiring out the guys and i will run for myself if i look in the dugout and everyone is pooped. Outfield or infield so what, at our age we play a position that best helps the team. Just because Webbie (or anyone else) plays the outfield does not mean he runs everything down, i'm sure some balls get by him from time to time. I'm very grateful for the guys that go the extra mile and run for me and others, i enjoy playing this game and it helps me stay on the field.

John Giesler
Master Collision
Sept. 29, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
and goforit this where the abuse comes in.so what if your slow,if no serious injury you need to run for yourself.yeah there are the few who need a CR,but i have seen it abused more than used properly IMO.to me we all should run for ourselves,fast and SLOW.just b/c you can't do a 4.5 40 anymore,to bad.as intimated in another thread i'm not the fastest guy around,but ok with the knees and such as for no injuries,maybe some wear and tear,but thats it.yes they do CR for me,but would run myself if they would let me,but it a coaches decision.
Sept. 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
The concept of a courtesy runner was supposed to be exactly that, a courtesy to an injured runner, NOT just for added speed on the basepaths.

I still say we should have courtesy throwers for the outfielders. After all, some guy might be very good at cutting balls off in the gaps but just doesn't throw as well as someone else. Let's allow him to hand the ball to his courtesy thrower.

Again, no outfielder (or probably middle infielder for that matter) gets a runner, no batter gets a runner after a double or triple, and whenever there is a runner it is the last out. That is still being courteous to the batter who cannot run, so who could complain? After all, it is all about the injured batter and not just getting a competitive advantage, right boys? LOL
Sept. 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
mad dog is 100$ correct.
Sept. 29, 2011
goforit
97 posts
Maddog/Gary19 -- my comment (for the most part) was in regards to me only ( 5 knee operations, including an ACL, bone on bone (right knee)along with some nerve damage - not sure this qualifies for the injury category. I'm sure there is some abuse out there in regards to the CR but in my case its all about survival. I love this game so yes if the team wants a CR for me then so be it. Never could run a 4.5 (4.6 was my best) -- now its 4.5 just to get out of the batters box. If these discussions lead to a rule change then so be it, i will just do the best i can.

John
Sept. 29, 2011
softball4b
Men's 60
765 posts
If my wife had a say, she would have me get a runner while still in the box. I slid for the first time in 7 years last weekend trying to set an example for my teammates. My beautiful lovely wife dropped the F bomb. She inquired as to what I could possibly be thinking. Sometimes it is just better to say "Yes Dear" and keep walking.
Sept. 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
We all have different experiences. My wife earned 14 letters in high school and played D-1 college basketball. If she saw me get a runner she would probably tell me to stop wasting the gas money and stay home and play checkers.

goforit, if you need a runner that much then so be it. But let's make it the last out and not a hand-picked rabbit.
Sept. 29, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Gary, being married to an athlete as well, my wife gives no sympathy either. I did not run that much this year for various reasons. I hope to put an end to a CR for myself for the upcoming season.
Sept. 29, 2011
goforit
97 posts
Gary19 -- it sounds like your wife was or is one heck of an athlete. My wife knows what i used to be able to do and she also knows i'm 60 years old now. She now just says go have fun and come home in one piece. I play hard and give all i can, if thats good enough for my team then that is all that matters. I will add one thing, our team does not use a RABBIT (someone that does nothing but run), it all comes down to who is available if needed.

John
Sept. 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
John, more like "was". She is 53 now, but not all that long ago would go out in the yard and warmup my kids before baseball or softball games.

I don't think of rabbits as someone who only runs, but it just always seems that the "poor" guy who needs a "courtesy" runner get replaced by one of the very fastest guys on the team.

All I am saying is, if a guy really, really needs a runner, let it be the last out and let those chips fall where they may. I am willing to bet you will see a LOT less CRs being used, and faster games to boot.
Sept. 29, 2011
cmudhen13
Men's 50
7 posts
I like the cr.What about those of us who have heart conditions and defibs.For the most part I run for myself and surprisingly I still run pretty well, unfortunately I do not have the stamina I once had. I get tired and it is nice to get to 2nd base and know I can have a cr give me a rest. If it weren't for the cr alot of us seniors might think twice about continuing to play the game we still LOVE!
Sept. 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Again, if you need one so be it, but make it the last out and not a hand-picked guy.
Sept. 29, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
i can see where CR's are needed,but just to be running them out there b/c the team wants a faster guy to me is the abuse part.i have heard "we CR for our hr hitter to save him",that is a bunch of crap,he needs to run also and get tired like the rest of us.
Sept. 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Or he needs to get off his ass on non-gamedays and in the off-season and get into shape.
Sept. 30, 2011
Omar Khayyam
1002 posts
Lot of hard nose guys out there!

We've got a hard nosed guy on our team. In his 70s, his knee is gone, in constant pain, never says anything, hustles as a fielder when he can (mostly 1B or catcher), has needed an operation for years. He's one of those guys who hit the gap, ball usually goes to the fence. About 1/3 of the time, he hobbles all the way to 2B while the outfielders are retrieving the ball and making the long throw. He has the best batting average on the team. You bet we run for him! And we don't have a rabbit, so it's whoever available that is not close behind him in the lineup. Gary's idea of last batter available before him is intriguing, but this guy is not the only banged-up, joint-failing player on the team.

Give guys like this some slack! Not all guys needing a CR are out of shape through laziness, nor non-running fielders, nor slower guys replaced by a rabbit. They are giving it their all despite their declining physical condition. As long as the CR rule is legal, we're going to use it to keep these guys as competitive as possible.
Sept. 30, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
Thanks Omar-you said it better than I did with my reference to the Tin Man from OZ. Should have just said it straight out.
Sept. 30, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Omar, I just don't see any reason AT ALL for it not to be the last out.

Now I suppose I would make an exception if the last out had been run for earlier in the game, but only in that possible situation.
Sept. 30, 2011
Omar Khayyam
1002 posts
Keep arguing, Gary, you're persuading me, although in reality, we have had situations when the last out before our "doubles hitter" was out because he also had hobbled down too slowly to first base and he was playing only because we were short of players. In many of those cases, it was a pulled hamstring or groin, and the player only continued on with his injury because we had no one else to go in for him.

And yes, before you say it, a couple of those guys I'm thinking of were not in the shape they could have been in and thus the pulled muscle. But we're not going to dump longtime friends and co-players because they've put on some weight or don't have time to regularly work out.
Sept. 30, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Injuries happen. Legitimate health issues happen. None of us are young guys.

But to allow the game to be changed for guys with no discipline just doesn't make sense to me. When guys get to the point where they cannot run 65' they just need to realize it is time for a change, either in their hobbies or their lifestyle.
Sept. 30, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
omar,its not the injured i have a prol with,its the guy who might be just slow and not any injury that the team coach runs for him,as he might be their hr hitter and the coach is trying to save him just to hit hrs.hell we have a guy with a knee replacement CR'ing.i get run for b/c "i'm not fast enough" according to my coach,instead of causing a scene i just accept it,even tho it PO me off.yes i have been injured at times and have asked for one,but that is the only time.i do get vocal at times about it,but it doesn't do any good.
Oct. 2, 2011
17Black
Men's 50
222 posts
Our league rule does not allow for courtesy runners once they hit second base for any reason. First base yes, but if you hit a double, you are on your own.

However, I've been to SSUSA tournaments where runners can pop in and run anytime, and in some respects, that can be a good thing, although I think it gets abused when a team has several speedy guys..

I am fortunate that I still can run well, and have power to hit HR's and doubles----but I got a bad case of planter faciitus during a tournament a couple years ago, which is REAL PAINFUL on the bottom of the foot, and those who have had it know what I'm talking about.

There were multiple times at one tournament where I was skipping and hopping like a little kid from home to 2nd and was very happy courtesy runners were legal.

But on another note, in Lansing last month, several guys on my team got hurt. Myself and two other guys literally had to run the bases in every inning all weekend, over and above taking our own bases when we were up.

I don't normally hurt too much after playing all weekend but felt like I ran a marathon in Michigan over three days.
Oct. 2, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
GREAT league rule. Makes so much sense.

Next would be outfielders that are patrolling at least 1/4 of a large outfield, not to mention backing up their teammates, are not allowed to be run for. Not a lot of evidence there would be a medical need for these guys.
Oct. 10, 2011
rtaven
Men's 65
22 posts
i play open league during week and have to run for myself but there are only 2 games and i don't always back up or cover bases as i should.i can not beat normal runner to first.
my doubles are limp to first and walk to second. my singles are trot first 20ft if thats what you want to call it and walk rest of way while watching outfielders for any sign they may throw to first.
a lot of singles would be doubles and a lot of doubles triples or more for normal runner.
i usualy hit in front of big time home run hitter which makes it nice.in critical situation i will be subsituted for and re-enter.
tournament ball has a lot more games,i have pitched 5 games a day more times than i can remember and try to back up and cover.this is a lot more running than any one else.i don't know if i could play tournament ball with out cr.
i have 2 major leg problems and would love to be able to run again.
Oct. 10, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Bob, I understand you have real physical issues, and that is what the courtesy runner rule is for. NOT to run for outfielders or shortstops, or just to get a faster guy on the bases.

Keep the rule, apply it when there is an actual physical issue, but make the last out run. So simple!
Oct. 10, 2011
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2689 posts
This year, playing on a 50 major team, I have had many cr's. I'm not hurt it's just that the team thought we needed a faster runner. I'm ok with that but also thind the cr rule is over used.
This coming year on a 60 team, I expect to be running more for myself.
Oct. 10, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Bruce,

Huh????

How can you be okay being run for just to get a faster guy out there, and then say it is overused? How they were using it for you is the very definition of "overused".

And, let me guess, they weren't putting the last out in for you either.
Oct. 10, 2011
armiho211
Men's 70
410 posts
this whole argument is academic. as long as the associations allows it, teams are going to use the cr rule. the idea is to avoid double plays and win games. on a personal basis , i run for people on ocassion and have also been run for. my knees are bone on bone and i need to take an 800mg ibuprofen every 4-6 hours. i would say if you dont want to be run for, refuse to get off the base and take your chances. if a double play ensues because of your refusal to come off the bag, then you should buy the beer after the game. mad dog - i think you need to challenge your team-mates to a foot race before the game starts. if you dont come in last, you can run for yourself! my ,02c
Oct. 10, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
You are correct. It is going to be allowed, and it is academic, but ridiculous nonetheless.

Guys will continue to waste time using it and then complain about why they don't get to play 7 innings.
Oct. 10, 2011
southernson
261 posts
Last time I checked the objective is to win the game within the rules. And the rules say that we can have a pinch runner at anytime on any base as long as they are only used once an inning.

And 95% of the time the umps do a good job of keeping the game moving by ensuring teams are ready when using a pinch runner.

We have good team speed, and 4 guys that can fly. And if the rules say we can use their speed, then we'll use them.

It seems that some want to apply the same rules for the old guys as they have when we were young. The first thing I tell any new 50+ player, is that it isn't the same game, it's a different game.

-The Senior strike zone is different
-The Senior home plate you tag for a run is different
-The Senior stance you use in the batter's box is different
-They hit more to the backside in Senior ball
-The way they handle extra innings in Senior ball is different
-You can be out if your hit a home run in Senior ball
-The batter's are more patient in Senior ball
-You can actually lose three games in a double elimination tournament
-And so on and so on....there's a long list that we all know that makes the Senior game different
-And if you can use a pinch runner
guess, what, it will be different.

It's a different game....and using speed on your bench is only smart....and within the rules.
Oct. 10, 2011
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2689 posts
Gary, what is confusing about my post? We are playing within the rules. Why shouldn't we take advantage of the rule?
I agree that we overuse it.

Great post southernson!!
Oct. 10, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
I totally agree that anyone using this rule, and taking advantage of it, is completely within its bounds. However, that does not stop it from being a silly rule that has been taken WAAAAAAAAAY too far.

Senior ball is a very different game in a lot of aspects. Why that is, I haven't quite figured out. Does it need to be? Probably not, certainly not to the extent that the game has been changed.

But it is what it is, and as long as guys are willing to pay quite a bit to usually play in very small brackets and often against the same teams tournament after tournament, I am sure it will remain that way.
Oct. 10, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
frankie that is a great idea,i might have to do that.hey i might not be the fastest guy around,but i do run smart.i an stretch those singles into doubles on occasion....

unless your injured,i think ya need to run for yourself,that is my thought on the CR.

we have a group of senior guys with a couple of their sons playing in open ball in league,and we all have to run,yeah we might be only getting one base at a time,but it is fun and we win more than we lose.actually won the last 2 leagues sessions this year.
Oct. 10, 2011
grumpy55
Men's 60
102 posts
In 1 of our leagues, if you used a cr, your cr could only move up 1 base at a time. They put in that rule because teams were abusing it so much. It actually worked out well.
Oct. 10, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
grumpy, props to you guys. A league with some sense!
Oct. 10, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
grumpy,in one senior league i played in,if you picked up players b/c you were short(lack league),they batted at the end of the lineup,they played rf,c,and no matter how far they hit the ball they were limited to one base(and like your cr,they could go only 1 base after that),all others on base could run as far as they wanted.

i do like that cr rule of yours,as it would only let the runner go as far as the person they cr'ed for, most likely would have gone anyways.
Oct. 10, 2011
obagain
Men's 50
58 posts
If the CR is that big a problem why not just say the CR has to run from home on, if the batter runs to first he has to run the rest of the way?
Oct. 10, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
league we do it for some,but tourney's there is no way someone should have a runner from the plate.
Oct. 10, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
mad dog, I agree with you, but if you think about it why not? If a guy cannot run from second to third, how is running from home to first possible? Makes no sense. You either can run, or you can't. How can you run sometimes, but not others? Just not logical.
Oct. 16, 2011
Doorman
35 posts
My team only allows 4-5 guys to run, although the other players are capable of running for themselves. Allowing unlimited pinch runners changes the game. It allows teams to have more big hitters that dont need to run the bases because they can always get a CR. Therefore many teams load up with big guys that sometimes only hit and never play a position. The bottom line is that being in shape, TEAM speed and ENDURANCE is not as important as hitting HR's for SS. There needs to be a better way for SS to control the use of the CR. I hate the use of unlimited CR's and I wish they would change it.
Oct. 16, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Doorman, here is the easy way to control this. The last out has to run. This way hand-picked guys cannot be used, the "strategy" is taken out, and I am willing to bet that somehow these "injured/crippled/disabled" guys who now need runners will somehow find a way.

Again, if you can run from home to first, or many times beyond, why can't you finish the journey? Just ridiculous.
Oct. 16, 2011
FOFO
Men's 50
171 posts
How about limiting CR's by division. Major + and Major division would get the least, say one per inning and AA would get unlimited. After all, Major + and Major divisions are supposed to be the best players and part of being a good player is being able to run..........
Oct. 16, 2011
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Or possibly one per inning for 40+ & 50+, two for 55+ & 60+ and unlimited for 65+ and beyond.

The trouble with if you make it to second you can't have a courtesy runner, a few will fake an injury just to get a faster runner in.
Oct. 16, 2011
FOFO
Men's 50
171 posts
That would work as well Jaw.
As stated above CR's should not have as big an impact on games as they do.
With the new home run rules I fear teams will add more guys who are capable of only hitting HR's and not much else. It would be nice to see some of the run once in awhile.
Oct. 16, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
FOFO,jawood,i have always had a bad taste for the CR.i was watching a 60M game today and they had a guy just basically on the team to run for the big guys,thats really abusing the rule as i see it.to me,unless you are seriously injure,there should be no CR,do it like the kids do with a slow guy,get the damn hits to get him around the bases........
Oct. 16, 2011
titanhd
Men's 50
337 posts
armiho211 how does allowing a courtesy runner prevent double plays?
Oct. 16, 2011
FOFO
Men's 50
171 posts
I'm with you Mad Dog. I think what makes a good player should include the ability to run, play your position etc., not just hit the ball 400. In the 50 divisions you should limit CR's. My team uses them only for injury and that's the way the rule was designed to be used.
Oct. 17, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Short of banning them altogether, which is my preference, you guys are missing the easy solution.
Oct. 17, 2011
Donny C
54 posts
I have been reading the comments about the CR and thought I need to commet also. I got some heck for having a CR while playing in Daltan. I got a triple does this mean I can run well enough and should not have a CR. According to many the answer is yes. I happen to hit a ball to the fence down the line to opposite field. I got to third mrunning like the mummy no play was made. I have a torn hip flexor and if you know whay that is you would understand why I cannot run. Many hits can be extra bases even though one cannot run; if one could run they would have gotten more bases. We need the CR for what it was meant to be and that is used for someone with an injury. I do not feel it should be used for slow runners in order to get an edge. Donny C.
Oct. 17, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Does a CR change outcome of a game? If so should maybe the use of a CR be addressed or eliminated? If slow Steve gets a lead off double in the bottom of the seventh and everyone knows it will take two singles to score him and regardless of where the ball is hit, no flyout will be hit far enough without leaving the park. Is it fair to the oppossing team that is solid defensively that you replace him with Sammy the speed burner in this instance? If you feel it is or not, do you build your team on speed, offense or defense? Does it even matter? Will the best team really win or just the best team of CR's?
Oct. 17, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Donny, I am confused. If you "can't run", there is no way you go home to third. There just isn't. Not saying running is easy for you, it isn't for many our ages. But anyone who goes three bases can physically go one. "Injured" guys just don't go 195' and then just suddenly realize they cannot go the last 65' Just no logical at all.

Sorry, but that is the abuse of the rule that has to be curtailed, if not done away with.

So, please don't say you "cannot run", that is an insult to those who truly can't. You just want more speed on the bases, and that was NEVER the intention of the CR rule.
Oct. 17, 2011
RedEye
Men's 60
92 posts
I saw Donny waddle down to first a few times in Dalton & believe it or not......He was not running.......Guess you would of had to been there to see first hand, few of that know him had a couple good laffs watching him.
Get healthy Donny for 2012.
Oct. 17, 2011
Doorman
35 posts
If I could write the rule...each team would get 1 CR per inning and it must be the last out. If a player gets hurt while running the bases you can use an additional CR for him and the injured player is removed from the lineup. Also, all players must play the field at least 3 innings per game. This would prevent teams from loading up on players that only hit then sit.
Oct. 17, 2011
Doorman
35 posts
Lets be honest...there are 5 skills that define a player. Running, throwing, fielding, hitting and power hitting. SS has devalued the first 4 skills and they have put a premium on power hitting. For the guys that just want to hit maybe SS needs to create a special division for those guys and call it something like "over the line". No running, no fielding, no throwing...just hitting!
Oct. 17, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Doorman, good stuff!
Oct. 17, 2011
Doorman
35 posts
Lets be honest...there are 5 skills that define a player. Running, throwing, fielding, hitting and power hitting. SS has devalued the first 4 skills and they have put a premium on power hitting. For the guys that just want to hit maybe SS needs to create a special division for those guys and call it something like "over the line". No running, no fielding, no throwing...just hitting!
Oct. 17, 2011
Doorman
35 posts
Lets be honest...there are 5 skills that define a player. Running, throwing, fielding, hitting and power hitting. SS has devalued the first 4 skills and they have put a premium on power hitting. For the guys that just want to hit maybe SS needs to create a special division for those guys and call it something like "over the line". No running, no fielding, no throwing...just hitting!
Oct. 17, 2011
Doorman
35 posts
I posted this once...not sure why it copied 2 more times
Oct. 17, 2011
Paco13
374 posts
I personally like the CR from the point of view that I get to exercise. I usually play SS and I am one of the fastest guys on the team. I enjoy running for the slower team mates that are not as blessed as I am that after 24 Y in the Navy never suffered any major injury...If it wasn't for the CR there is not a lot exercise getting a single or double and sometimes staying there...and not to say that most games are decided by one or two runs...I want to believe that I can make a difference on winning...Now and this is perhaps a different subject I do not like the idea that somebody that just hit unless hits a 1000, should be selected as MVP or even as All Tourney team...of course there are exeptions and is up to each coach to make that decision depending on the situation...To my team mates I believe that our selections are well deserve with the exeception of one tourney down South. My 2 centavos.
Oct. 17, 2011
RIK56
Men's 50
120 posts
doorman are you saying those 5 skills dont exist in senior softball.i repeat you need a combo of all the above to win.
Oct. 17, 2011
Donny C
54 posts
RedEye, I thank you for coming my defense, I could only run like the mummy dragging my right leg behind me.
Gary 19, I did get to third with an injury that will require surgery in November torn hip flexor. I would have to say that yes one can get extra bases with a serious injury if you hit the ball in the right place. If I thought I could have gotten to home I would have done that. One can never under estimate what one can do given the opportunity. My right leg was bruised from knee to crotch, telling me I over did it; never planned to waddle around that many bases, but the opportunity was there as there was no one near the ball. Doorman, I was asked to come and hit by my team as they knew about my injury they just asked me to get to first base. I actually felt bad that I could not run as I am fairly quick without the injury. Donny C
Oct. 17, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Donny, I think what some of the folks are trying to say, is the same players that are getting CR's have to take the field as well. If you hit the ball into their area and they slow and your slow. Is that not he equalizer? It all evens out in the end if there are no CR's. Why should the offensive team get a CR, but not the defensive squad getting a CP (courtesy player).
Oct. 17, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Or a Courtesy Thrower. Let the fast, rangy guys with weak/injured arms get someone out on the field with them who has a rocket that they can flip the ball to after they field it.

Being just a bit facetious with that, but seriously following the CR logic, why not? Are we AGAIN saying that offense is that much more important than defense? Why just help the offensive team?

Donny, after that AB did you come out of the game due to the injury?
Oct. 17, 2011
Doorman
35 posts
RIK56, I am not saying those skills dont exist. Actually there are a few 5 tool players left. You are right, you need all 5 skills to win. However, the CR rules allows too many teams to load up with guys that only hit, but cant run, field or throw. Softball should be a game where ALL players need to use ALL 5 of their skills and let the best TEAM win.
Oct. 17, 2011
Donny C
54 posts
Pricer/Gary19: I understand what you are saying about the CR playing defense, I was the DH and also pitched. My movements on the mound were not the greatest. Should there be a courtesy thrower a whole new discussion but I would say no. I would think that the majority of players that need a CR would be the DH as they do not have to play in the field. I would say most DH players are better hitters than fielders. Gary no I did not take myself out of the game after getting a triple because I wanted to play. I had this injury a few weeks before and played the entire time with a CR. My team understood I could not run just asked me to get to first. I had around 25 or so hits in Dalton all were singles but two and if I could have run there would have been more extra base hits. I came to Dalton only because I was asked just make it to first. Donny C.
Oct. 17, 2011
Doorman
35 posts
Donny, I know what you are saying but the rule works 2 ways. It helps the guys that are hurt, but too many teams abuse the rule to gain an advantage. I like another idea I read. A CR can advance 3 bases on a HR and only 1 base on all other hits. And doing this still gives teams that use a lot of CR's an advantage because the CR's are usually quick enough to prevent force outs, they slide more often to break up double plays plus they can also tag and advance on a fly ball better than a big slow guy or a guy with an injury. Bottom Line: It is unfair for teams to load up with big guys that only hit and the unlimited use of CR's promotes this advantage.
Oct. 17, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
MAKE THE COURTESY RUNNER BE THE LAST OUT.
Oct. 17, 2011
JamesLG
304 posts


I also believe this rule is abused and it takes too much time away from the game. I need work on both legs but would rather run for myself in most situations. I agree with the one CR per inning and leave it at that. I also would not allow a CR to anybody on 3rd base.
Oct. 17, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Does anyone else think that if there was no CR, division would look differently? Players could hit the crap out of the ball all day long, but if their only advancing one base at a time a more because they are slow, a balanced team would win more often then not. With the CR, we are putting players who can hit in upper divisions because they do not have to run. Make them run and you'll find more teams thinking twice about loading up on great hitters with no ability to run. Which in turn would force those players to find other teams to play on which could increase numbers in teams. JMO
Oct. 17, 2011
rightrj1
Men's 55
211 posts
Most of the guys who use the CR are very good hitters & can’t run whereas most of the guys who are the CR’s aren’t that great of hitters….Should they not be included in the game? Let’s leave the game the way it is, the rule was put in place so that EVERYONE can enjoy & play the game!Is the CR rule abused? Sure it is! Guys who can’t run that well in my opinion would just quit & go play golf or fishing! If you have a team with all rabbits, more then likely they won’t win much because they can’t hit! If you have a team were all need CR’s they’ll HIT till there hearts desires & go base to base. I’ve played in tourneys where no CR’s were used & the team with all hitters just HIT & HIT and went base to base…makes for a boring game! At least with the CR in place, it makes for a more exciting game! Noting is more enjoyable then to throw a CR out at 3rd or at the plate after he runs for someone…I know it doesn’t happen often, but it does happen and what a feeling when it does! My 2 cents!
Oct. 17, 2011
steve65
Men's 65
177 posts
may I as "The Rabbit" add my two cents--I am 65 and run as often as I can--I also have three stents and a pacemaker--I have no idea how many times this season I scored twice in the same inning--I care about my team and the guys that cannot run--I gladly run slide head first dive for my team and have the desire to prolong my teammates playing days as long as I can. what do I get from this--according to my wife my life has been prolonged and made better by all the exercise. I do pay a price as I cramp in the latter stages of most tourneys. One more thing the rabbit can do--when I catch a third baseman or catcher out of position and get the extra base the team comes alive as the spirits soar. watch the slumping shoulders come up and the chuns leave the chest when "the rabbit" turns on the jets and scores when the bad knee would stop another runner at second or third base.
Oct. 17, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
rightrj1, that is the question I asked. If they could only go base to base, that would take at least 9 singles to score the 5 run limit. That leaves alot more room for mistakes nine hit an inning is no easy task, let alone with slugs on the base paths. Also there are enough divisions for everyone to enjoy the game. We don't have to put the best hitters on a small percentage of the reams and Cr for all the players who can hit but can't run. As far as your comment that they would go golf or fish. I'll disagree with you. Thats not showing much faith in our fellow players. CR's they probably have a place in the game. If we're gonna have one it should be the last out made in each case and one time per inning for each player as a CR. JMO
Oct. 17, 2011
rightrj1
Men's 55
211 posts
Pricer,
I agree 9 hits per inning is a big task to complete, but remember we are talking about REAL hitters; some of those hits will be gapers or home runs. We’ll have to agree to disagree if they stay or go…I believe they would quit if they had to play defense & run the bases. At least at the Major & Major + level. Most or all DH’s hate to run for whatever reason, let alone play some defense!!! Most rabbits would have to play in the lower divisions just to compete on their own level and I’m sure that would be great for them, but who wants to play on a team that’s averaging 350 for a team batting average & aren’t good at defense, but they can run! I think I read somewhere in this thread that there are 5 skills, but as OLD as we are I think only 3 apply to most of us. Some can hit, some can run, some can hit & run and can’t field, some can field, hit & can’t run & MOST can’t throw at all…What’s one to do??? That’s why I like the rule as is! It makes putting a REAL team together so much fun…Remember this is slow pitch softball “A HITTERS GAME” 99% of the time he who hits usually wins! Bye they way will you be in Phoenix this weekend? Would love to meet ya?
Oct. 18, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
But is that what the upper levels are about? Offense? What you just describe the Major/major+ divison as a bunch of primadonas that would prefer a homerun contest over an actual game. And the rabbits playing in the lower divisions, so be it. That's where thay belong based on talent. Just reading your post, your dead on in your analogy. Problem though, that whats I feel we can correct.
Oct. 18, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
So Senior Softball has to ensure that everyone can play? Is this now the old man version of t-ball?

"the rule was put in place so that EVERYONE can enjoy & play the game!" Not so. The rule was put in place ORIGINALLY to accommodate legitimate injuries, and abusing the rule was limited by making the last out run.

It was not so that teams can get their fastest guy out there.

It was not so that outfielders who can cover 1/4 of a large plot of land all of a sudden cannot run 65'

It was not so that guys can hit doubles and triples, and then suddenly not be able to run the last 65'.

Can someone tell me what would be wrong with making the last out run? It would still serve to assist rruly injured guys, but would (hopefully) eliminate the professional rabbit. And the rampant abuse of the tule. And the time wasted switching runners.
Oct. 18, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
Pricer, am I missing something? It only takes 8 hits to get 5 runs and leave the bases loaded. Still a big task, but we do it a lot. We have a section of the lineup called the 'boulders'-self explanatory. The kids in league have learned to get the ball to first, even on a shot to the fence because they have a chance to get an out. Umpires have called 'delay of the game' on us a couple times with them running bases. Yes we run for them. We would be a different team without the CR. But we would adapt.
Donny C-I fought something similar to your hip flexor for a full year-finally seems to be healed. I offered to sit out, but they wanted the bat in the lineup. When I hit it to the fence, I could get to second or even occasionally third, but it was very painful. I hope yours finally heals-what a nightmare year, not playing defense, which I love, and having that pain.
Oct. 18, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Sorry, Detroit public schools grad. Who would of thought it?
Oct. 18, 2011
steve65
Men's 65
177 posts
Webbie 5 runs can be scored on five hits
Oct. 18, 2011
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
Gary,why don't you just GET off this senior board! Why do you post on here? You like none of the rules,you never have anything good to say about the senior game. I'm just saying what 98% on here are thinking!!
The CR is needed in senior ball and will always be in our great game,get over it. Our Jim & Joe's team just won the SSUSA 60M,we don't have a lot of power but a lot of team speed and use the CR more than any of the other teams we played. We have one Rabbit that only wants to run and he can fly,and he runs every inning. Our LC fielder is 66 still playing 60's and if he leads the inning of with a double then I may put a CR in for him to keep him from wearing down and he is one of the fast's guys on our team. This rule helps keep players with bad knee's or what ever in the game and in our case helps our league team with no snowbird's to compete with the HR hitting teams.

Oct. 18, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
JohnBob, or RickyBobby, or whatever you are,

Do you have even a vague understanding of what the word "courtesy" means, and how it was meant to be applied here?

Do you have any idea why the concept of this rule began?

What do you have against the last out running? Admit it, you don't just want to save your guys legs, or spare an injured guy from having to run. You want to handpick rabbits to run. Otherwise, AGAIN, what is wrong with the last out running?

Oct. 18, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
steve-pricer was saying if you ran station to station (1 base at a time) that it would take 9 hits to score 5 runs. It only takes 8. But, you could actually get 9 clean hits and only score 4 runs.
Oct. 18, 2011
steve65
Men's 65
177 posts
Gary19 exactly what is your problem except for being blind---SPEED is the name of the game on every level--pro baseball has speedsters on the roster for running purposes--pro football the same--Bob Hayes was the fastest man alive and the Dallas Cowboys signed him as a wide out--they designed plays for him---SPEED equals EXCITEMENT which in turn equals INTEREST--do you want the game that you supposedly love to die or to thrive??? JohnBob congratulation to you and the guys---another Jim and Joes guy here
Oct. 18, 2011
steve65
Men's 65
177 posts
thanks Webbie didn't realize the station to station part--so many posts was just skimming them---
Oct. 18, 2011
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
Gary, what's wrong with leaving the rule like it is and move on. I didn't like the DH in the American league and still don't but got over it years ago.
Oct. 18, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Bob Hayes was a footbal player who could run. They did NOT sign him straight off the track just to play football! Learn history.

How good was Renaldo Nehemiah with the 49ers?

How good was Herb Washington with the Athletics?

Willie Mays Hayes was a fictional character.

Please name me a baseball speedster whose only job is to run. NO one has a "speedster on the roster for running purposes". They are baseball players who are fast.

NONE of this is what the CR rule does to softball. NONE!!!!!

Oct. 18, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
The DH rule is still being applied 40 years later as it was originally intended. The CR rule is not. It is not a Pinch Runner rule, it is a "courtesy" runner rule, and the courtesy aspect of it is sadly long gone.

It slows down the game, and makes a farce of it.

AGAIN, if guys really need a runner what is wrong with using the last out? Any takers?
Oct. 18, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
Pricer-maybe you have to be an Ann Arbor grad like me!!! :-) LOL
Oct. 18, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
Gary-you have posted basically the same thing 28 times now in this thread. You have asked repeatedly 'any takers'. A few have responded, but most here seem to like it for one reason or another. When I first came to Seniors in 2006, I thought the same way you did about a lot of the rules. But having played for 6 years now, I see the reasoning and agree with most of them. One of the big things you harp on is the number of teams in some tournaments, that you feel brackets are too small. CR rules allow a lot of players that wouldn't be able to play, to at least play some, and at our ages that is a blessing.
We all know how you feel about this. Why do you have almost an 'Einsteinian or garyc' compulsion to reiterate your position after EVERY post?
Oct. 18, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Some folks on here just don't get it! If a team wanted to circumvent the rules regarding the CR, all they would need to do is have 10-11 softball players that can hit and fill the rest of the roster with 5-9 guys who have never played the game but can run like the wind. Would that not make a farce of our game? I don't believe that is what was intended when they applied this rule. I know that is gone to the far extreme, but if & when it happens and your on the other side of it, it will piss you off and make you think the same way. JMO
Oct. 18, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Webbie, Huron or Pioneer?

I have not seen, and maybe I missed it, anyone who has said what would be wrong with the last out running instead of a hand-picked runner.

So allow the CR rule, if need be. But why does the runner have to be hand-picked. Didn't use to be that way, at least not around here.
Oct. 18, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Pricer, "some folks"?????????? Only some?

And I still like the courtesy thrower idea. LOL
Oct. 18, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
Teams will find a way to abuse any rule, if they can. We do a lot of CR running as a team, but everybody plays, too. You would just hope that your scenario doesn't happen, but there are those who need to win at all costs.
Oct. 18, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Webbie, I see your post to Gary, but you or anyone else for that matter, please respond by thinking first without emotion or personal feelings. Use logic here; isn't talent supposed to be the deciding factor in what division you should play? If you can hit the ball for both power and average and can't run a lick. Does that make you a major player or would or should it put you in a division that you as a complete player can compete? Would it not be better for every player that is not capable of running (outside of an injury incurred during that tourney) a team should announce and have additional players on a bench and permanently were the CR for that player? Just asking!
Oct. 18, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
30 Gary-I rest my case.

Ann Arbor High School! 1970 grad-the year they split-we had split shifts at the Pioneer Building my senior year and officially I am a Pioneer.

Can we get a 'courtesy pitcher' if ours cannot throw strikes or keep the other team in the park?
Oct. 18, 2011
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
Thanks Steve it was sweet.
Gary,I don't like the snowbird rule and a lot of team's used it last week and it puts our local league team at a disadvantage and the way we made up for it was with speed and defense. There was one play in finals of winners bracket with 2 outs and a CR on 1st he beat a force at 2rd with a hard slide and kept the inning going and we scored 3 runs after that.
The guy who made the last out could be a guy that last year had both knee's replaced and the one on 1st needs one but is putting it of till after the season is over. What about our guy that just want to be a CR,his throwing arm is shot and he can not play any more.
Oct. 18, 2011
steve65
Men's 65
177 posts
Gary19 a little History lesson for you--Bob Hayes was an Olympic sprinter who won th egold medal in the 100 in a time of 10 sec flat he also ran third in the 4x100 gold medal team that won with a time of 39 sec flat--He was a sprinter that could catch football--in August 1965 I sat in the rain in Soldier field in Chicago and watched him play for the college all stars in the Tribune all star game against the NFL champions--
Oct. 18, 2011
rightrj1
Men's 55
211 posts
Pricer,
Yes, for the most part, the only different between major & major + is defense! The major’s play a little more defense, because it is mostly not a HOME RUN DERBY. You have guys who on a regular bases hit 650 or above mostly gapers and hard line drives! You guys kill me with this EGO/ Primadonas tag. Hell, if you’re good then your good. It’s always the lesser talent players (Gary19) who place this tag on the guys who know & can play the game well! CR’s or not the better talent ALWAYS rises to the top. PERIOD!
Gary 19 this is recreational Senior Softball, yes, let everyone play, yes, let everyone have a role even if the role is to be a rabbit…..Call it CR or whatever it gets guys coming to tournaments and it keeps balance amongst teams & teammates! Do you really think that the guys who know he’s not that good hitting or fielding & doesn’t mind being a rabbit would play if his role changed? I don’t think so! So the CR rule STAYS.
Oct. 18, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
Pricer-don't you think that should be up to the team-whether the skills you bring to the game are valuable to them-no matter what the level? As a team, we are also a family and a lot of us have been together for up to and beyond 20 years. We have a few guys that, because of injuries over the years, absolutely are unable to run hardly at all. Yet they play, including some defense (using that term loosely) and we run for them every time. That can be several CR's in an inning. I do see your point and maybe the answer lies in which divisions would be allowed unlimited CR's. Maybe a limit on CR's in Major and Major Plus might be the answer here. Maybe age might be an answer-over 60 is unlimited and 50-60 is limited. What do you think?
I don't post from emotion, Pricer-this forum is just a lot of opinions put out there by people from all walks of life about the game I love. Sometimes people point out things I haven't thought of and allows me to look at things differently and I like the debate and often look at it with tongue in cheek humor.














Oct. 18, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Steve, the game was not stopped after the tight end or fullback caught the ball so Bob Hayes could come in off the bench, take the ball from him, and then run down the field. That would be a valid analogy to what is occuring today in Senior Softball.

Hayes had to run his route, get open, catch the ball, run the ball, hold onto the ball, and take a hit. Much different than how the CR is being used/abused today.
Oct. 18, 2011
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
Ya and the guy that is ran for has to get on base before he's ran for duh. Gary why don't you go play with the 25 year olds they don't use the CR?
Oct. 18, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
JohnBob, use it if you need to, I guess. But why can't the runner be the last out to avoid any shenanigans?
Oct. 18, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
I'm sure this will ruffle some feathers, it's ok for everyone to have the opportunity to play, and I have no problem with that. What really is bothersome is the fact some of these folks are one-dimensional and have no lateral movement in the field and can run the bases. We continue to say things like, "Gary 19 this is recreational Senior Softball, yes, let everyone play, yes, let everyone have a role even if the role is to be a rabbit….. Call it CR or whatever it gets guys coming to tournaments and it keeps balance amongst teams & teammates! Do you really think that the guys who know he’s not that good hitting or fielding & doesn’t mind being a rabbit would play if his role changed? I don’t think so! So the CR rule STAYS." This is one of the reasons I feel the divisions need to be reworked and the CR needs to be looked at again as to ways to make it work without teams having an advantage because they have some no softball talent speed demons on their team. JMO
Oct. 18, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
Pricer-if you're going to be in Phoenix this weekend and are interested in sitting down over a beer, let me know. We can talk about the Lions or the Wings, or the Tigers, or the Wolves, or even softball!!
Oct. 18, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
whoa webbie,you better not be skipping our date now.....
Oct. 18, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Maybe he just found a more interesting date.
Oct. 18, 2011
rightrj1
Men's 55
211 posts
Your not ruffling feathers, I’m like Webbie this is pure FUN!
I'm ok with revising the divisions, as a matter of fact I like your 2 division format that you came up with on another thread.....but I think you forget the age groups we are speaking of...WE all have some kind of physical issues, be it knees, ankles, back, shoulders, hips....Are as fit as you were 25 years ago & if you are, I want some too…lol
Oct. 18, 2011
Donny C
54 posts
This talk on Bob Hayes got me thinking of a book called "Run Bullet Run," a story of Bob Hayes. I always enjoyed him when he played for Dallas. Webbie25 thanks for the words. It is terrible when one cannot play up to his potential, having to have a CR made me feel like I was not holding up my end for the team. Injuries happen all the time but now we are older and the healing takes longer. It amazes me how many players have had such serious injuries and continue to play, it tells me of the love of the game. No doubt in my mind everyone who has written on this post loves the game very much. Gary19 you are one of these, no doubt you love the game. Yes, some rules get abused and the CR is certainly one of them. It overall is a good rule when used for what it was intended. It was put in to help an injured player and I see no problem with that. I have also played when I was put in as a pitch runner (when I could run) because I was faster than the guy on base; this could be called a good call by the coach or abusing the CR rule. One thing is for certain all teams have the opportunity to do this or not. I personally would not like to abuse this rule, but if push came to shove and we needed the desisive run I may be swayed or at least think about it. Hey Pricer, Webbie25 I am a bit North of you both a born YOOPER. I follow the Tigers, Redwings and Pistons am happy for the Lions but I am a Packer backer. Donny C
Oct. 18, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Yooper, where from?
Oct. 18, 2011
Donny C
54 posts
Pricer, I am from Manistique, but lived and played ball in the Soo, Iron Mtn., Rapid River and Escanaba besides Manistique. I live near Traverse City right now (Suttons Bay.) I also lived in Manistee and played ball there and Muskegon (softball world, Kalava, Fountain) and GR in the old dome. Where are you at? I play with Indy Fog for 60+ great bunch of guys, also played with Big Daddys from Indy. Donny C
Oct. 18, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
mad dog-I'll be in Thurs around noon if all goes well. I plan to get over to Papago for a while then probably the meeting. Let me know where you will be. Pricer might be better looking, you know?
Donny-I have a lot of relatives in Petoskey/Harbor Springs/Alanson area. WAAAAAAY too much snow for me!!!! LOL Moved to Albuquerque 35 yrs ago and love it.A big snowstorm is 4 inches, and unusually cold is 15 degrees. We play golf just about year around, although it's cool.
Oct. 18, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Donny, just moved back to Metro Detroit from Traverse City about a year ago. Did you play over in Williamsburg on Wednsdays? Also I spent the summer before last doing some painting up in Manistique. Small world. I still talked to quite a few of the guys up in TC. I'm sure we know alot of the same people.
Oct. 18, 2011
Doorman
35 posts
The issue is not only the CR, but the DH. They are linked together. Has it occurred to anyone that the CR produces more hr's? By allowing players to skip the running part of the game, it encourages teams to load up with more big hitters...that dont need to run...at all...ever! Running is part of softball, but in SS it is the part of the game that is secondary to hitting home runs. I think the overuse and abuse of the CR / DH for the 50's and 55's is a joke. Maybe the older guys need more CR's.
Oct. 18, 2011
RIK56
Men's 50
120 posts
ok i will bite,name some teams that just load up with big hitters.
Oct. 18, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
not wanting to call out any teams,but i have seen some just have a guy or 2 with them that just run,ya never see them bat or play the field.

what about this, a CR must at least bat,that way they can be really involved with the game.
Oct. 18, 2011
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
RIK56 - Great question that I doubt you'll get any good answers to because there aren't any. The CR issue has been beaten to death by a lot of different folks. The CR is a part of the game that's here to stay.

How in the world is running secondary to hitting home runs. Where the heck did that come from? The over use and abuse of the CR/DH for the 50's and 55's ???

Not all CR's are fast runners, they are just healthier than the guys they are running for. A good example is one our CR's on my team. He doesn't play much but always travels with us because he loves the game and likes being a part of the team and the comraderie. He happens to be one of the slowest runnners we have, but like I say he's healthy. Certainly not an abuse, but a contributer.

Some of these guys would still complain if the last out was a world class sprinter used as the CR. Many of them will argue if the sky is blue or is it baby blue just to get the last word in and to agitate the masses. You just got to let them have their fun and let most of it go in one ear and out the other. Every once in awhile they do come up with something that kind of makes sense and shows sign of being worthy of listening to. JMO
Oct. 18, 2011
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
Come on mad dog -
not wanting to call out any teams. what's the problem? call em out if that's the way you see it. What's with your apprehension? 3293 posts. You obviously don't care what you say or who you say it about, or will it tarnish your reputation?
Oct. 18, 2011
tg69
310 posts
OK guys,the horse is DEAD,you can quit beating it.I can see both sides.Yes I think the rule is abused.Yes, we use it to the fullest extent.No,I dont like it.Yes,I think it should be the last out,but as long as everyone else abuses it so will we.Just my dimes worth.So lets bury this old horse before he starts to smell.See you in the desert.
Oct. 18, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
tg69,yep basically how it is.its there,we don't like it,but we have to live with it.......
Oct. 19, 2011
Donny C
54 posts
Webbie25: I know the area quite well my girlfriend is from Charlevoix so we often go to Harbor Springs and Petoskey. I go to Albuquerque each year for a training, love going to "Old Town." Hope to catch you at a tourny and shoot the breeze. Take care.
Pricer, I play at the Civic Center in T.C. and Interlocken, never played in Williasburg and did not know they played there. No doubt we know some of the same guys in TC, I had two games last night, I wore long underwear, this fall league is hard on the old bones. Looking forward to speaking with you. Donny C.
Oct. 19, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
Donny-come hit with us when you come out to Albuquerque-invite is there! Let me know.
Oct. 19, 2011
Donny C
54 posts
Webbie, I normally go there in late March or early April, I will let you know when I will be there. I go there for a conference each year. Who do you play with throughout the year in MI? I have played against the Bomb Squad and Doc Martens both from Southern MI the last couple of years.
Pricer, What kind of painting do you do? Donny C
Oct. 19, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Donny, I did alot of interior painting. Mostly in the boyne mountian resort, but insurance up in up.
Oct. 19, 2011
Donny C
54 posts
Pricer, Boyne Mtn is a beautiful place, they have some beautiful homes around there besides the scenery. Donny C.
Oct. 19, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
Donny-I moved away from Michigan 40 years ago, but still have family and friends there. Boyne Mountain was almost right out my grandfathers back door.
Oct. 20, 2011
Tater50
336 posts
I believe w/all the contradictions to rules: a Yearly Player Poll would answer all these thoughts; but then what would we have to churn about on this board!!!!

BTW: went to the Dr & had a urine test; results?

1. You are old
2. You have bad hearing
3. You are a loudmouth
4. You can easily stretch a double into a single
5. You are fat & slow & always need a Courtesy Runner.


Tater50
Remember: cry about the tournament game & all its rules; play & try to get the rules changed or complain for 5 more years & while on your cane, look back & wish you would have played!!!
Oct. 20, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
Tater-had my physical, too. Walked in and the doc said "Are you still alive?' Checked out what used to be my knees (and mandated a courtesy runner for the rest of my natural life), couldn't find a pulse or BP (blood pressure, not batting practice), called me a grumpy old man, and sent me to Phoenix to play worlds with a 'Good luck, hope you survive!"
Oct. 20, 2011
neck10
504 posts
theres nothing wrong with cr most guys who cant or shouldnt be taking extra bases will try it every time when they hit the ball knowing they will pay for it later we have a guy in our leauge who had knee replacement can still hit the ball but needs to go over the fence to have a chance for a double,the rule where one guy can run once per inning is a good one ,some guys running is there game so let them run.I get a runner from time to time but if Im not in the line up Ill run for other guys since that is akll I have to do.if the rule isnt broke dont try to fix it & yes donnie you can have a runner anytime you play us,ive seen you run.
Oct. 20, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
neck, anything wrong with making it the last out that has to run? Still helps the guys who really need it, and would severely cut down on the shenanigans.
Oct. 20, 2011
littleguy1
Men's 50
8 posts
Gary, since noone seems to want to answer you about the last out having to be the cr, I will give you my opinion. The only problem I see is if the last out is a person who has difficulty running and would be replaced by a cr himself. Perhaps a better solution would be to limit the number of cr's per inning. As discussed earlier on this thread, it takes 8 hits with station to station advancement to score 5 runs, so why not limit the number of cr's to 2 or 3 per inning. Teams would have to use some strategy to decide who to run for, you could still have your designated rabbits and you could still run for guys that need it the most. BTW - first time poster and first year player.
Oct. 20, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Thanks for the reply. I am not positive what the answer is, but I just don't think it is running for guys who managed to run from home to first, or worse yet to second or third, but then just magically can no longer run to home.

Or to run for guys who can cover 1/4, or more if they are doing their job and backing other guys up, of a large outfield but suddenly cannot run 65'.

Need is one thing, but not sure why abuse is tolerated.
Oct. 20, 2011
steve65
Men's 65
177 posts
look at our lineup and perhaps you can see not all teams use the CRs for an advantage--this is a 65 team--outfielders run for themselves and anyone needing a cr---3rd baseman knee (having surgery in Nov) SS runs for himself 1st base both knees-can hardly walk--catcher back (surgery) pitcher knee--we have several Dhs used at different times one is 75 yrs old and has knee problems and has had eye surgery--one is 70 and runs for himself and others--another has had hip surgery and can hardly walk --another hip and knee surgerys--yes any of them could go all th eway around but then they would be finished--they enjoy senior softball and have earned the right to play--without CRs they most likely would not be able to play any longer--so I gladly run in the outfield and for myself and for anyone that needs it once an inning almost every inning until I can go no more because I also have earned the right to play and will continue to help others in any way I can --that is the way God wants us to be
Oct. 26, 2011
rock21
4 posts
the only solution to the cr rule is that if u can make it to second, u can make it home. If u can't run then a reserve player comes in for you. It can make the game more like the pro baseball game by using your moves strategically. Why should a team of slow runners have the equalizer of putting in a speedster that turns anyone into Willy mays!
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