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Discussion: Divisions

Posted Discussion
Oct. 6, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Divisions
If and I said if, we only had two divisions (upper & lower) in each age bracket, what would be some rules, prizes or equipment changes (if any) you think would be important? All suggestions are welcome and appreciated.
Oct. 6, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
no changes in rules,we wouldn't need to,except for a safer bat/ball combo maybe,thats all.prizes wouldn't change as there'll be less teams for tourney fees to foot the bill.
Oct. 6, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
A reduced bat/ball combo could/would eliminate the need for time limits, run limits, home run limits, and the pitcher's box.

If we want to put defense back in the game, which this combo could allow, then let's make teams earn their ups and not reward them for sucking defensively.
Oct. 6, 2011
udaplaya
91 posts
Be care what you wish for......i had a friend play in the USSSA 35/40 Regional/Worlds (?)in Oregon this past weekend, and he cant wait to play SSUSA World in Phoenix where he hopes the bats will be more uniform.

Why? He said that doctored bats (some of which he claimed were superior to senior bats) were the norm rather than the exception, and it was so obvious to everyone in attendance that it will probably be worse next year - i.e., the guys who brought knives to the gun fight will not let that happen twice.

I have heard comments that some seniors actually doctor senior bats, but i would suspect that they are the exception. For the most part, we are playing by the same rules as it relates to bats. I will grant that the bats have had an impact, but at least it is a level playing field.

A reduced bat ideology, however altruistic it may be, would only result in an "enhanced" bat combo, for those with the "win at all cost" mentality. Sure we can monitor it, but after years of trying, the young guys are no closer to fixing that problem.
Oct. 6, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
If you enforced the altered bat rule with suspensions for 5 years or more, would that not be a deterrent? Five years is like a career ending in senior ball.
Oct. 6, 2011
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
mad dog......you talking about doing away with the composite? Didn't St. George, SPA and LVSSA use to be ASA tournaments? Maybe there's a reason that they all went to the 1.20 bats now being used in SSUSA. SPA did take a poll and the "special bats" won out.
Oct. 6, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
salio, no surprise the special bats won out. Too many insecure old guys won't play without them. Hard to believe today's u-trip bats, or even the Freak for example, and not lively enough.

And yes, I use them, but would have NO problem playing without them. Particularly if we can get rid of some of the silly rules with their absence.
Oct. 7, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
no sal,not saying do away with the composites,just use a safer ball would do the same thing,hate to harp on it,but the 52 ball does fine with senior bats.i just tested some new ones by AD starr with a guy who had a dz of their new design and we hit them off a tee and still could get them out with senior bats.we also pitched them to each other and had no prol hitting them good.

don't know about LVSSA,SPA used the USSSA bat standards for their play.huntsman used to be NSA run for softball.
Oct. 7, 2011
crusher
Men's 70
380 posts
IF a decision is made to DUMB down the BAT/BALL combination, whoever makes that decision if it is done, please do not be an IDIOT.
DUMB down the BAT.... Everyone buys a ball. Tournament Directors, managers, leage officials, etc.
Only players buy bats.......
At one time a T2000 ball was introduced, I swung a 38oz Steeles bat (think that is correct spelling) that could beat a tree down and could hit a line drive out of 300' park.

Hello, the bat only cost me $13.

This $200 crap for a bat is insane.

If a change is made DUMB down the ball...........
Oct. 7, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
if it happens crusher,to me that would make the only sense,keeps us from having to buy new bats.....
Oct. 8, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
sad pup, if you believe what you read on here about how often the special bats break, guys are having to buy new bats frequently anyway. So what would the big deal be?
Oct. 9, 2011
birdie
Men's 60
671 posts
Gary, You need to chill a little bit. I happened to believe that a dumb down bat would lead to us buying not as many bats. A dumb down ball will not have that much effect on the bats breaking. You just love to disagree!!! I may have missed something but I do believe you have missed the topic here in order just to disagree with mad dog.You need to get out an compete again. I believe that you are losing touch with it all. (LOL) Thanks Harry
Oct. 9, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Birdie, Im not sure dumbing down the ball will have any effect on the longevity of the bats. If so it will add so little length not enough to mention.
Oct. 9, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Sorry birdie, but NO one needs the special bats. They cause many more whacky rules than they are worth. If old guys need them that badly to feel good about themselves and whatever ability they have left, that to me is just really, really sad.

By the way, I do compete, just not this past year in tournaments with only 4 or 5 of the same teams I would see at every other tournament in a tiny little bracket.

And again, the need to hit hard and far with someone else's technology that no one under 50 is allowed to use is just not a turn-on for me.
Oct. 9, 2011
GaCMan
85 posts
This whole bat thing has gone a little crazy. I would probably play even if we went back to when I was a kid and played CORK BALL. I hope one day they will,(maybe Gates) come out with a tamper proof bat and or go to a combo that will work for the majority hahahaha. I like what we have but that seems to be what most of the talk is about or at least a lot of it is.

I feel also that I break way more than my share of bats, 9 this yr. Even though 3 were replaced thats still to many. It really gets in your wallet after a while. I'm not to bright as it took me a while to start buying cheap bats to use in BP, duhhhh.

In a perfect world looks like we could reach a happy medium but this sure isn't a pefect world is it?????? Well we can all dream and I can't sleep so I'm just rambling on and on. I'm sure some of you know what thats like. Remember we aren't 20 anymore and time moves faster nad faster every day, you better enjoy every minute likes its your last because it can end in a flash. I feel so lucky just to be able to play and enjoy the sport I love. I count my blessings each day. PLAY HARD, ENJOY, HOPE to play many more. Hope this help put me to sleep or maybe some of you goodnight.
Oct. 9, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
pricer they will last longer,the C.O.R of the 52 has more bounce to hit,so less damage,and the compression is lower (300 psi) so again less damage.the lower the C.O.R. the less bounce and harder center,along with higher compression will damage the bat quicker.
Oct. 9, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
MD, so could we say GaCMan, would have only gone thru half as many bats?
Oct. 10, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
basically,yes.might even save more than half of his bats he broke.higher C.O.R./lower comp will shave bats,compared to the lower C.O.R. higher compression....
Oct. 10, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Then in the name of money, this should be done. But even this borders on the insane. 4.5 bats per year @ 200.00 is just under 1000.00. Does anyone else see something wrong here? But I guess it's better than the 9 bats at just under 2000.00!!
Oct. 10, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
i'm with you on it pricer,but then we have the lively bat/ball people,guess they don't care how much they spend.i happen to be lucky and don't break a lot of bats,broken 2 senior bats in the last 3-4 years and no utrip or ASA bats in that time.i can count on 1 hand all the bats i have broken in my lifetime,but i do take care of them.once game ready thats all they see.for breaking them in,i rotate the bat barrell during bp when breaking in,don't use wet or heavy balls for bp.


just notice something in my above post(higher C.O.R./lower comp will shave bats)that should say, save bats.
Oct. 10, 2011
crusher
Men's 70
380 posts
Sorry on my last line from above.

I should have posted;
"DUMB down the bat and make the ball hot"

Softballs are cheap, bats are expensive, with a hot ball a bat with 1/8" walls would still allow a lively game with
no destroyed bats.

That would save some people $1000 a year.

Bat test would be easy, a small wooden vice could be used to test for flex in a bat, if it flexes it is a cheater.
Oct. 10, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Why do old guys need a "lively game" when it results in time limits, run limits, home run limits, PPRs, pitcher's boxes, screens, and/or pitchers who look like hockey goalies?
Oct. 10, 2011
crusher
Men's 70
380 posts
GARY19, you are the gary that was banned. or you are not alive. are you a Zombie.

We OLD Guys need a LIVELY game because we are ALIVE.....
It is great, to bad you are all washed up.
Are you small of stature in your mind?
I know you have never played a tournament. The Ol guys I
know have a blast playing tournaments, league, and day ball.

Bowling, wow, bet you would like an 8lb ball. Do not try to play with a mans ball that is a 16lb ball, you could just not do IT.
Oct. 10, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Yes, I WAS banned.

Yes, I am alive.

No, I am not a Zombie.

(Could you please explain all of that for me? It was very strange.)

You need a lively bat to still try and feel good about yourself. Keep convincing yourself, if you can still hit, that it is all about you and not the special bats. Good luck with that one.

I am not small of stature anywhere, and thankfully between the two of us I am the one who still has his mind.

You clearly don't know anything about how many tournaments I have played in.

I have a blast too, but would have just as much of one without the artificial offense the special bats create. But again, keep convincing yourself it is all about your mad skills.

So you think the special bats are "man's bats"? Too funny. Those are the bats for guys like you who appear too afraid to have to play without them.
Oct. 10, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Crusher, totally uncalled for. What makes you an authority on Gary, let alone the rest of senior softball. When you said we, you meant me. You don't speak for anyone but yourself. I do play tourneys crusher, so does that make me a authority? If you don't like his comments, give him some facts or debate his facts, but to try a indicate the man don't or can't play is idiotic.
Oct. 11, 2011
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Gary 19.........Why must you continue to put down the senior softball community with your nonsense about special bats? SSUSA does not allow special bats. Are you saying that the 5000 softball players that will be playing in Phoenix are too afraid to play without those bats which SSUSA says they can use? Those rules were in play when you started playing senior ball. The 5000 seniors in Phoenix like those rules and do not consider any of their equipment as being "special". You should make a pilgrimage to Phoenix to see what it is about the senior championship that draws all these seniors. Have you ever played in the senior championship in Phoenix, or SPA in Dalton or Plano, or LVSSA, or Huntsman Games? Great tournaments, much different atmosphere than local tournaments. Again.........we came to senior softball, saw the rules, decided to play.
Oct. 11, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
pricer,maybe you should ask some of gary's teammates that have played with him,i have and crusher is basically dead on.the guys i talked to said he runs his mouth,has no batting skills,and is barely good enough to pitch(with all the bragging he did at being a great pitcher).these are not me making it up,it is from guys who played with him that i asked,i think he has sour grapes b/c he is not allowed to play with any team in his area,so he just jumps on here and attempts to be little senior ball.he has all of couple lines when jumping onto these posts,

"you old men need special bats to feel good",but yet he uses them when allowed to play,

there are to many silly rules.

he adds nothing,or any solutions.these rules and bats have been in place since he started playing,why did he start.most all of the rules were in place when i started playing over 10 years back,hardly any has changed,and actually the hrs have been added to the lower divs,not taken away.


sal he would have to have a team to be able to do that.who ya playing with in phx,i'll be there with the dallas spurs 60AAA first weekend,and the 55's next weekend...
Oct. 11, 2011
curveball
Men's 65
395 posts
Pricer, "If" we had only 2 divisions in each age group as you have asked, which age group and division would your team fit into? What tournament team do you travel with?
With 2 divisions, you'd have smaller turnouts for tournaments, with the divisions being talent laden top heavy, which will result smaller budgets for directors to work with.
Oct. 11, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
I would guess our team (K Sheeran Essentials/Livonia, MI) would be moved to the upper based on this years performance. We were mostly a first year team. Do you really think tourneys can get any smaller? Would anybody be willing to try this format and if so what HR limits, bats and balls would you like to use. Would anyone like to try an aluminum bat tourney?
Oct. 11, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Where do I begin?

salio, when ONLY guys over 49 can use Senior bats that to me is the definition of "special". If you read many posts on here, not all but many, yes there are plenty of guys who won't play without the bats, who say the hot bat/ball combo is "essential" to their experience.

sad pup, please show even one time where I "bragged" about anything. I truly cannot recall, and my guess is you cannot either. Yes, I use them, but would gladly stop if they were taken away. Who all on here (and again, I know there are some who would but far from all) can say the same?

"he adds nothing or any solutions...." That is just flat-out not true. I cannot count how many times I have advocated the reduction of divisions, expansions of age groups at least at the younger end, elimination or at a minimum change to the bogus "courtesy" runner rule, to get rid of the 'one size fits all but really fits very few' mat, and on and on. Why the lies, puppy?
Oct. 11, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
I have never met Gary before, only have read the post he has submitted on here. Folks, if you feel he belittling you because you insist on defending the (these bats are not special). Get over it already. If what the seniors use were legal for all of softball to use, then it would not be considered special equipment for senior only. FACT! Why is it so hard? He makes you think and that is good. He's more right than he is wrong as well. If the rules on special bats changed Jan 1st, how would it affect you?
Oct. 11, 2011
the wood
1071 posts
Pricer:
Divisions - You originated this post about divisions. I've played at every age level for the past 40 years... I am elgible to play 65+ next year.
The truth is that there always were more than 2 divisions years ago. When we played in the 40 & 45 divisions there were only 2. There have been 3-4 divisions since 2000 in pretty much every senior assn except USSSA. Take a glance at the 'participating teams list' on this web site... from 40s to 80s.
Do I feel that 2 assns would suffice? No, but I do believe that 3 would be worth trying.
Special bats - In my view they are special. But so are tennis rackets, golf clubs, NCAA bats, etc. But they are legal for everyone from 40 to 80+... so let's put it in a more clear perspective.
But if you don't like them, don't play. Many guys do like them and many other guys play because they love the game. Don't pretend that you have the insight to know which group is larger. The voices on this board are not necessarily indicative of how 30,000 players feel.
My issue with Gary over this matter is that he incessently repeats this mantra about senior guys needing special equipment. I'm certain that many of us have traveled roads that he hasn't taken... and we didn't need special bats then. I know USSSA HOF guys that come to watch us play... they don't seem to be bothered by it but then they probably don't understand the game as much as Gary.
If you don't love it, leave it...
Gary's posture - I cannot speak for the senior softball community as a whole. I can tell you with some certainty that his posture isn't at all respected. The '17 arms' comment is a pretty good example as to why this is. In short, his stated exploits do not seem to match the comments from the players that live in his region. Sooner or later this tends to backfire... refer to A. Lincoln's comment about 'fooling some of the people some of the time'...
Gary's contributions - I agree that he does offer some good contrarian comments. If he could take the 'I' out of them and only state them just 4-5 times, it would be better received... and it would also be more useful.
He doesn't play the game that we love... he belittles it. Connect the dots, Pricer, it isn't a real stretch to see why folks react to him as they do. In my business people do not care what I know until they know that I care.
Again, if you don't like the game we play, find one that you do... (I used the global 'you').
If you want to call the bats 'special' I really don't give a dinker's dam. That's just semantics. But do not pigeon hole us if you're not out there doing it.
Bob Woodroof
Oct. 11, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Bob, I suggest two because it's easier to police and then go to three when it's obvious that a third is needed. But it's difficult to start at a higher number and reduce than it is to add another at a later date. Also I disagree in your view on the bats vs. the other equipment you described. None of them at all have the same impact on their games as the senior bats. But I understand where you’re going with it. I have used the senior bats for the first time in Manassas during the LVSSA worlds. I see where the addiction comes from, but would stop using them in a heartbeat to improve our overall game. Where & at what level he played I would think is irrelevant. If his character or playing ability were the topic of discussion, it would be different. I just don't feel what is being discussed in this thread and what he post is out of line. If you don't care for what’s posted, you can debate it, question it or don't post all. I have no beef with anyone and I'm happy just to be playing ball with a great group of teammates and friendly opponents. But I really do think Gary and all the others are just trying to make the game more enjoyable to play. JMO
Oct. 11, 2011
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Pricer............"Gary and all the others are just trying to make the game more enjoyable to play". For all ten of them? I spoke of Phoenix, with 5000 senior players!

Gary 19............Senior players don't give a damn about what the non senior players can or cannot use.
There will be 5000 seniors using their special bats in Phoenix and (1) Gary 19 at home,not playing, because he doesn't like the special bats. Sure players would play without the 1.20 bat. Many do play ASA in their respective city leagues,but they came to SSUSA, saw the rules, and decided to play by those rules. Nothing Special!
Oct. 11, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Salio2k, thanks for the response an take no offense, but you don't speak for 5000 players in Phoenix. If you have your own opinion that's great, but folks need to stop trying to speak for the masses. It's great that you enjoy the game still, but that's what this forum is all about. A place to share and discuss rules, issues and equipment regarding our game.
Oct. 11, 2011
pushin60
Men's 60
63 posts
He may not speak for the masses, but their (the 5000)participation does. If they didn't like the format and equipment they wouldn't be there.
Oct. 11, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Where are those 5000 the rest of the year? When I played in 2010 the brackets were tiny, and usually the same teams each tournament.
Oct. 11, 2011
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
I am not attempting to speak for the players. They are speaking for themselves. When they became seniors, they came to SSUSA, saw the rules, and decided to play by them. That is all I am saying. The rules do not say that you have to use a senior bat, they say that you may use one. Yet a large majority will be using a senior 1.20 - 1.21 bat. They are speaking with their wallet. Most, if not all, have more than one such bat. Nothing special. Too bad you don't know someone in Phoenix that can walk through the field and check the dugouts to see the bats that are being used.
Oct. 11, 2011
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Gary 19.........You play 50's? Here's a note from SSUSA................................................NOTE • The Men's 50-Major and 50-AAA Divisions have historically been large enough to require a portion of the Friday morning Seeding Games to be played at overflow facilities. Should that be the case this year, the overflow facilities are projected to be as follows:

50-Major • Victory Lane (Glendale)
50-AAA • Thompson Peak Park (Scottsdale)
Oct. 11, 2011
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
They have 80 teams participating in the 50's divisions.
Oct. 11, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
salio, that type of turnout is great. Though it still doesn't answer my question of where are all those teams during the rest of the year. I just know what I saw last year, and it was very vew teams and often the same ones over and over, at least at tournaments in Ohio, Indiana, and Michigan that we attended.

I agree no one is being forced to use the special bats, but if the guys have to be subjected to the whacky rules because of them and the extra offense they create then they might as well get the obvious benefit from them.
Oct. 11, 2011
curveball
Men's 65
395 posts
Pricer- not sure about the other 4998, but Salio speaks for me. I see most of the othe players in my division all year at various tournaments. Our group prettymush travels to the majority of good tourneys. Perhaps your area is more economically depreesed than other regions and don't see larger turnouts for that reason.
As for your MI team playing in the top division, you'd better pack a luch, you've got an all day uphill battle. With the likes of Nighthawks, NW Legends, OKI, Mavericks, and a lot of other top notch teams,there is not a snowball's cance in hell to compete. The division will shrink for sure. Have you seen a Major+ team in action in the recent past? There is NO possible way that upper AAA teams can compete at the level of the top 10 teams in each age. 2 divisions won't work for the majority. Don't even think it would be fun or worthwhile for those elite top teams.
What tournaments did you partisipate in this year?

Gary- Where did you compete that had such small brackets in 2010? Perhaps the economy nipped a few teams in your area also. Even you can't expect all 5000 to be at "Regional" Tournaments, just the real Worlds.
Oct. 11, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
curveball, I remember Columbus, Lansing, and Shelbyville, and all had what I would consider small brackets and a lot of the same teams at at least 2 of those if not all 3.

I realize they are not all going to be everywhere, but such a large variation is just surprising to me.
Oct. 11, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Ok. he speaks for you too. Anyothers out there? As far as our team and it's travel, we chose our tourneys before the year started and was pretty happy with our results. Would have like to gone to Phoenix, but it's to late in the year for most of us. Softball is over for the most part mid Sept. As far as the upper division, it don't intimidate me one bit. Why would you think we would have no chance at that level. You don't know us or have never seen us play. We know alot of these players on the mentioned teams. As far as our tourneys, won them all but one. How about you, how'd your team do?
Oct. 12, 2011
stick8
1238 posts
Pushin60 it's great that Phoenix gets all those players to participate. That being said it would be interesting to find out if those numbers would be the same or close if, for example, players could use only USSSA bats with the same balls. I initiated a survey on here a couple months ago on a subject similar and the results were the vast majority would still play. Granted there were only 20-25 responses. But I'd like to think most players have a stronger feeling for love of the game as compared to being able to use senior bats. jmo $0.02 worth
Oct. 12, 2011
the wood
1071 posts
Stick,
As you are aware, any surveys taken on this board MAY or MAY NOT coincide with how the majority of players truly feel.
But I tend to agree with you... players will play, others will watch.
We play in a local single wall bat tourney each summer and there are a lot of big time guys out there playing... the point of this is that most folks would not expect M+ guys to be there. They had 4-5 divisions of 5-6 teams each (round robins). Winners got a T-shirt... (i.e. we weren't there for the prizes). It was played on open fields... no double walls, no composites, no 2 piece bats. There was no whining (about the bat/ball combo anyway?.
The bottom line is that they were guys from AA to M+ playing softball, having fun, as they have for 30-40 years. The special bats there were Red Lines, SW DeMarini and/or an Anderson or two (SW = single wall).
There were no HR rules... but we did have some equalizers... no whining about this either.
Obviously, this level of bats are well below USSSA versions.
So my guess is that SSUSA, if using USSSA bats, would draw nearly as many as will be in AZ.

Pricer,
Don't put words in my mouth. My comments about Gary's playing ability and posture was a direct response to your comments... 'why is it so hard?' (Oct 11).
Do not try to paint me as an elitest... I do value all levels of play, which is consistent with my feelings against just 2 divisions. I fully recognize that all of us have different abilities, different needs, different opportunities, etc. Softball has almost always provided for these differences.
BW
Oct. 12, 2011
curveball
Men's 65
395 posts
Pricer, to answer your 1st question, why you have no chance at that level: I just got through working at Shadow Rock during the LVSSA Worlds where the major and Major+ teams competed. I got to watch the likes of Demolition, East Bay, Line Drive Salsa, OKI and NW Legends for several days. They were fantastic and an eye opener for anyone who hasn't watched guys at that level play. (I personally have never watched an entire 50 Major+ tourney, I've always been too busy with my own team) If your 50's AAA can compete with any of the teams I saw play, you'd better call Sacramento ASAP and get your A$$'$ moved up where you belong!! You are correct about not knowing or seeing your team; but, to be able to play at that level and be rated AAA would be an absolute joke. There is no way in the world you could be sand bagging to that extent! Teams you have played would be crying bloody murder.
Have you ever seen OKI in your area play? Your team plays at that level? Also, I have serious doubts that any team with that kind of talent you indicate your team has would be done in mid Sept, before all the World Championships. That's the time of year great teams gear up for.

2nd question, we had a decent year. See page 20 of the latest Senior Softball News,(LV 65's). We won the Spring Worlds also. Here's where my recent experiences tells me your AAA team can't go toe to toe with the big guys. We are a force in 65 Major, moved to Major+ in mid-season. Our results in Major+ are a reflection of the increased talent pool at the M+ level. We finished last at the TOC, last at LVSSA Worlds, and last at the SPA Worlds in Dalton. From my observation, in M+ you have the best of the best throughout the lineup. From there down to Major, you have a few best of the best, but it gets watered down more and more as you drop in classifications.

I acknowledge on any given day any team has the possibility to get hot and win, that's a given. But, is it realistic to think a AAA team is going to play competitive ball on a daily basis with a team 2 divisions up? NO, I don't think so.

I have no reason to bad mouth your team or belittle your group you play with, that is not my intent. But, with that said, I do believe you have no idea about the talent level of 50 Major+.


Gary19- you a talking about regional qualifiers! How many do you expect?
Most teams only go to 1 or 2 to get their rosters qualified. Those local ones you speak of cost as much for each individual to attend as do larger tourneys. And, in this economy, you'll see smaller numbers of teams traveling period. Mot conserve $$$ for larger tourneys, like LVSSA, SPA, and SSUSA Worlds.


Oct. 12, 2011
stick8
1238 posts
The wood, your right about surveys or polls. At that time there was a pretty intense discussion about bats and balls. So I figured to kind of cool off the intensity it would be fun to take a survey. There were no right or wrong answers, just how players felt. In reality surveys or polls are just fodders for conversation (and the conversaton was pretty lively!!). The number of responses demonstrated that at least the posters on here cared deeply about the senior game, irregardless if they would play with only usssa bats or not play at all. To me that shows passion and that's a good thing.
It sounds like the tournament you reference was a good time!!
Oct. 12, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Hold on here fellas. I am not trying to create a pissin match or even take sides here. But what I see or read is people get attacked personally because of an opinion or views.

Wood, I thought I was just returning your volley. You make good points and I like reading them, but why does one's playing ability have to do with being right or wrong with their opinion?

Curveball, not anywhere in my post did I ever indicate we would win or lose by playing in the upper division. But I can guarantee you one very important thing; we will compete and will not be intimidated. For years playing A & B ball we played in all the same tourneys that the Major teams played in, never getting any equalizers. We suprised some of those teams and won, but lost a lot of games to them as well. Isn't that why the game is played? All the senior players have been great, but pushing your own envelope as a player & team has been the force that has driven me & fellow teammates thru all of these years. Winning was just the climax, but never, did any of us indicate if we can't win we should not play.
Oct. 12, 2011
Lecak
Men's 55
1004 posts
Curveball I wish I knew who you were I played up at Shadow. Damn would have loved to have introduced myself. I'm with you on the Major plus. That was a tough bracket the 50 major plus. Demolition looked awesome I got to watch them play and Geno has done a tremendous job with that team. Some old teammates of mine play for them Babbs and Danny Hess. We had 11 teams in the major division there and really there was quite a talent difference from what I saw from major to major plus. No offense to the major teams who competed but that major plus bracket was tough.
Oct. 12, 2011
the wood
1071 posts
Pricer, I don't know who you are and really don't care. You can think what you want about me or anything else.
IMO, Gary has gotten way too much attention. He doesn't play in our events, he just rags on them... over and over.
It isn't about being right or wrong... his message is fine (the first few times) but the messenger is another matter... 'never before has so little been owed by so many to so few'.
The game isn't broken despite what you and Gary may feel. It is made up of people who enjoy each other, teammates and opponents alike. We have grown tired of being criticized for our conformity with the majority. This has been going on for several years... whether it's from Gary19, Generation X, Dirty, Gary19, etc. I used Gary19 twice because this is the order of his code names.
For the last time, my point about Gary's playing exploits were in reference to his previous statements... they simply don't match. Period. Is he a bad guy? I don't know and don't care.
I have no interest in carrying on an extended dialogue with you over this issue... so let's both move on out of respect for the other message board members. Since you initiated this thread, it's only fair that I be the one to refrain from any further posts on it.

Stick:
It really was a good time... partly because we were playing with guys from several other teams that weekend and also because it's softball... it's what we do. As you know, we'd play if it was with wooden bats.
One point that I didn't make in my previous response to you is that I answered your question on the basis of 'would SSUSA draw as many teams with USSSA bats'. What I didn't differentiate was that if there were other events allowing hotter bats (than USSSA) it would surely affect the level of participation in AZ. But since SSUSA allows the 1.2-1.21s, folks are more willing to go... because they like to use them AND because they know that other teams will be there, too (in numbers)... more teams to play AND more old friends to see.

Curveball:
You can lead a horse to water and then you're eliminated from the decision making process... you'll know what I mean.

BW

Oct. 12, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
wood, what did I ever say about my "playing exploits"? You can make that assertion, but I don't recall ever saying all that much. And your regurgitation of my comment about my size was completely out of context, so in the interest of fairness and accuracy please don't go there.
Oct. 12, 2011
the wood
1071 posts
Gary, you have already received more than your fair share of attention. But if you really wish to know where I'm coming from, you can email me @ awtgroupsc@aol.com...
I'll be more than happy to address your concerns.
BW
Oct. 12, 2011
garyheifner
331 posts
You know what, Gary 19 has irritated me for years. But I am swinging to his line of thinking. My team has won 9 rings over the years. We have a great infield and 5 outfielders that can flat fly. We play at the 65AAA level.
If we use dumbed down bats and balls, our outfield will squeeze inside 200 feet and the singles hitters will have no chance and our guys easily run back on deep fly balls. Hell, we will win another 9 Rings!!!

Another possibility is the teams/individuals that don't like our current game, go play ASA and USSSA tournies only.
That would cut the discussions on this site considerably and everyone would be happy.
Oct. 12, 2011
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
stick8..........about your survey. You mention that there was a pretty intense discussion about bats and balls going on here on the board. Most of the "younger" senior players do not come on here. If you were to go to Phoenix and ask the 40's, 50's, 55's about the this board, they would not know of what you speak.
The tournament the wood speaks of is held every year with a good turn out.
If SSUSA was the only game in town, holding a USSSA or less tourney, players would go. BUT, they are not, and therefore, would never hold that type of tournament. I guess the only way to find out for sure would be for someone like Pricer to hold a USSSA type tournament with two divisions at the same time as a SSUSA tournament.
Oct. 12, 2011
TOMAR77
Men's 55
188 posts
Gary 19 , why don't you take your weak bat and small balls and play elsewhere , you are a contrarian and I can prove it ! You love your ego and it shows , just like your slip!You rarely acknowlegde those that reach out to you in conversation , humor is foreign to you, you seem to have no life , which leads me to beleive you just want to cause contraversey and put down the Game we enjoy playing. I am not a Major+ player , but as stated in the past support the improved equipment and am privileged to continue to play this game with it. I also, enjoy the invention of electricity , the the x-ray machine ,or should I just live in the dark and play with broken bones that could be tended to? So grab yourself and leave us the Hell alone ! Pricer you may defend him as you will ,that is your choice.
Tomar
Oct. 12, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Wood, never said the game was broke. I have always indicated the composite are a problem. Well I guess you & I won't be going to dinner together, but I did not ever think you would take the approach or stance by getting all defensive. By your previous post, I would have thought differently. You don't have to agree with the two divisions, but something should be considered. Never would we have tolerated before senior ball, going to a tourney to play in a B class and end up play teams in another division with equalizer rules. Why is it ok now? Tomar77 & saloi2k, can I ask what experience you have in running a team, lge or association? You fellas got the wrong impression here. I enjoyed the senior circuit this year. But because I enjoyed the season, it does not mean we can't improve the game or make it more enjoyable than it is.
Oct. 12, 2011
curveball
Men's 65
395 posts
Lecak, would like to have met you also. Which team were you on in the Major Division? I watched a ton of your division also. I had several old frieds and teammates on Wilkins/4 Seasons and Metro out of Vancouver. Watched most of their games. Must have seen you in one of them. I was one of the 4 guys doing field prep between games and making sure that water jug was never empty. Our LVSSA team was assigned Shadow Rock both Fri and Sat. What a treat. Some fantastic ball all day on all 4 fields.
I got to meet a couple of new guys, from the board. Don and Ollie on Demolition. Class guys. I already knew Paul Salow from my Palm Springs League, don't think he comes on the board.
I'll watch for your posting of your team and will seek you out at one of the tourneys.
Oct. 12, 2011
garyheifner
331 posts
I find it interesting that some on this site continue to bash technology and the bats and sometimes balls. Yet, I NEVER see or hear bitching about the new wave of balls and golf clubs (a game I also enjoy) or the advances in tennis rackets, hockey sticks and skates or running shoes or basketball shoes or protective football gear and on and on.
Oct. 12, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Gary, that's because it's a softball board. Also, besides the hockey sticks, what of your mentioned products can be considered dangerous in or on the field of play? Gary, just for the record. I refused to hit with the senior bats all year up till the Worlds in Manassas. With some prodding from my teammates who had been indicating I was bringing a knife to a gunfight. I gave in. I hit like I haven't in 15 years. For average and power. It felt great when the ball went in the holes, gaps and way, way over the fence. But, it scared the sh*t out of me when I hit couple at the 3rd & 1st basemen and even more so with a couple I drove right by the pitcher. That's what concerns me. It's not the technology with the ball & bats. It's what we can do with them by mistake. I took this off another message board it is somewhat in line with what we're discussing here.

"This is a huge problem with no denying the fact that yes the great players today would still be great players. But the problems are the inflated egos created by the equipment being used today, let alone the illegal equipment. Do you think we'd even be having this discussion if the majority of today’s players could not hit the balls as far and as hard as the best of the best before composites? I don't think so. I'm not going to get into this era vs. an older one. But players knew where they fit in before these bats. Seriously, how many players that play tourney ball at all levels in softball right now have never hit a home run at 300"? My guess not many of them. Before composites you had players that played at the A & AA level that had never accomplished this. But they were still top-level talent. JMO "

Oct. 12, 2011
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Pricer....I have run softball teams here in California(ASA rules). I've also ran a softball team where I was the old man and used my senior bat and also allowed my under 40 team-mates to use them also.
Nothing special. I have played in AAA, Major, and Major + in senior softball. I have not run any of those senior teams. Norhave I ran an association. That is why I suggested that perhaps you could run a USSSA tournament against a SSUSA tournament and see where the majority of seniors will play. Given a choice, the SSUSA would win hands down. I know that there are a few on this board that could be given factual figures like 90% to 10% that would still tell you that the 10% is correct and not the 90%. I know what I have seen in my 12 years of senior ball. But then I am like most seniors, I came to SSUSA, saw the rules, and decided to play.
Oct. 12, 2011
Lecak
Men's 55
1004 posts
Curveball played with Southwest Legends. Too bad the tournament didn't end on Friday for us we played well. Saturday we took a dump. That's softball. If I play next year will be 55 team in Vegas Sin City. Did my 50 time. If you were on the tables I'm sure we spoke. If you do the local stuff in Mesquite i'll say hi. By chance do you play with Russ Curtis.
Oct. 13, 2011
the wood
1071 posts
Pricer:
I am not being defensive. I just get tired of the constant negativity about the game. Both you and Gary have made your points about the bats. Fine. Is there a reason that we have to constantly hear the same old sh!t?
Feel free to use my email address because I prefer to not foul up your thread any more. There is a reason that the bathroom is not adjacent to the kitchen. Far too many of these discussions get drawn out and then get ugly. We've all seen it... we all end up being loser's to it.
So if you really want to know why I feel as I do, contact me and I'll be as straightforward as I can.
There is a history here that you may not know.


GaryHeifner:
I accepted Gary's message, too, and concurred when I first heard it (several years ago). But I like to think of myself as a free thinker and, as such, don't need to be bombarded with the same tired old message. Like you, I would be content using USSSA bats... for several reasons. I've always (since the 70s) valued speed & defense over power... but I haven't run well since Lewinski was in the White House. I use 1.2 bats because everyone else does... I don't wish to play any more short-handed than I already am.

BW
Oct. 13, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
wood, perhaps you have to hear the "same old shit" because Pricer and I have to hear the same old defending, rationalizing, and spinning.

Sounds like to you Pricer and I should stop while all you other guys keep on going.

Interesting.....................
Oct. 13, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1936 posts
One point that I have not seen on this thread about the major plus division is that major plus players just don't grow on trees. There has been, for as long as I can remember, a 'Super Division' or something similar and there were not a lot of teams in it, plus the age differential was not a factor as it is for Senior players, so there was a wider range of players to pull from. Because of this age factor, I really think 2 divisions is too big a cut from the 4, but I could see 3 being a workable number. When I played open, though, we traveled to play the best-even if we got smashed. I'm sure major plus players feel the same way-they ALL want to play the best and be challenged. Unfortunately, most of us know we have seen our best days and are not going to improve. The stomach seems to be gone for taking those beatings, so a contentment or acceptance (for lack of a better word) has set in and teams do not want to be moved up. A lot of guys that never won a 'National' championship now, for the first time, feel they can at some level and it is an intoxicating feeling.
I wonder what would happen if SSUSA held 2 tournaments during the year-one in the east and one in the west-that was only major and major plus and opened up the rosters to anybody who wanted to play without it 'labeling' them a M or M+ player. They would probably need to keep the border rule to keep well heeled teams from pulling from the entire country, but I really wonder how successful it would be.
Oct. 13, 2011
curveball
Men's 65
395 posts
Lecak--I did watch you play pats of several games. Funny how sometimes a different team shows up on Sat. following a great Friday, yup, that's softball!
I do play with Russ; I bat right after him. He doesn't leave me very many RBI's!!!!! I'm sure I'll get to know you when you play next year.

Webbie, well stated. Unless you've been playing at the top level or at least watching an entire tournament at that level, you may have forgotten how good those select guys are. They don't grow on trees for sure. they are a rarity.

Very interesting thoughts on "open" M and Major= combined tourney. I think you are on to something.....................
Oct. 13, 2011
curveball
Men's 65
395 posts
"Curveball, not anywhere in my post did I ever indicate we would win or lose by playing in the upper division"
Gary, you didn't have to, after seeing M+ play, it's not even a possibility a AAA is going to win. Not being intimidated is different than stupidity or just being unrealistic, I understand that.
I doubt anyone in their right mind would spend the 1000's of dollars it takes to play in a world tourney, to "get to compete" a lower division team against Major+. In some peoples case, they may do it just to be able to tell the grandkids "pappy played in the worlds against the best."

Oct. 13, 2011
stick8
1238 posts
Wood that's a fair point. Most senior players would rather swing ultra 2's, reeboks, toxics or whatever senior bat they use. I completely understand that. Heck I swing a TPS Voltage (the good one) and I love it. As I recall the question I posed was if senior bats weren't allowed anywhere and usssa specs were the rule would seniors still play. I believe most would for the reason that you elluded to, "it's softball, it's what we do". The way you worded that says it all. Well said.
Oct. 13, 2011
stick8
1238 posts
Salio2k I understand where your coming from. I suspect some older players aren't exactly computer savvy! lol just kidding.
About your point on USSSA tourneys our team (OKI) played in the USSSA Senior World East tournament back in August. It was in Maumee, Ohio (just outside Toledo) A total of 12 teams spread out in 4 divisions--a very poor turnout. It was pretty much felt that if senior bats were allowed more teams would play. USSSA won't allow senior bats because the insurance cost goes quite high, as I'm told. The only reason our team played is because it's somewhat local. I believe they had a USSSA senior tournament west in Texas. That's something we wouldn't travel to. That being said if all senior bats were suddenly banned and all we could use wwere USSSA bats then there is a decent chance we would travel to that tourney. If you recall that was the question I posed--if no senior bats werwe allowed anywhere.
Oct. 13, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
3 Divisions would be a start then. Also the equalizer that has been mentioned(earning the additional runs instead of giving them) is a far better way to go.
Oct. 13, 2011
TOMAR77
Men's 55
188 posts
Pricer, to answer your question as to Managerial experince. I have managed local teams , since the early 1970's. In Senior Softball I started the Git-R-done Softball Clubs , we currently have 1 team each at the, 55,60,65,and are starting a 70's team this year. All our Manager's follow a Club Manifesto , written primarily by me. So I have enough experince to at least express opinions. All of us are entitled to our Humble Opinions. It sometimes just gets tiring and boring when we have a few "one trick ponies " who are not interested in improving our game , but have constantly badgered the game and its participants! Again I happen to believe Gary19 is a contraian whose main game is to be disagreeable , per his many posts.
Tomar
Oct. 13, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Tomar & salio2k, I had no business asking either of you that question. I did it in a moment of anger. I apoligize.
Oct. 13, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
TOMAR, as I am sure you have seen but for whatever reason are choosing to ignore, I have offered MANY ideas of how the game could be improved. Not sure why you acted differently.
Oct. 13, 2011
TOMAR77
Men's 55
188 posts
Hey Pricer , not a problem , apoligies not necessary. As you might surmise I enjoy this Great game and have the impression you do as well.
Gary19 , I guess I am being contraian. You of course are entitled to your opinions, to be clear I am not saying all of your post are negatve , it just seems so many are.You do what you must. Might want to lighten up a tad on belittling those that are actually playing,SSUSA. Your call.
Oct. 13, 2011
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
stick8...........the question you posed did not say that no senior bats were allowed anywhere. It merely asked if they would play with only usssa bats or not play at all. I answered on the same day that if SSUSA was the only game in town, holding a USSSA or less tourney, players would go. BUT, they are not, and therefore, would never hold that type of tournament. There is just too much competition for the almighty dollar.
Oct. 13, 2011
stick8
1238 posts
Yes Salio2k I believe you have it correct. The premise was would players still play if they couldn't use senior bats, only USSSA approved bats. Like you, most who responded said they would, a couple indicated they wouldn't. It was a hypothetical question that I posed just for the fun of it--there was no right or wrong ansnwer. BTW, I'm very much aware of the SSUSA format and the business side of the game. But I do appreciate your op-ed.
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