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Discussion: senior bats--courtesy runners--

Posted Discussion
Dec. 15, 2011
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
senior bats--courtesy runners--
with all of the controversy concerning the "senior" bats and "courtesy" runners I find it very interesting that in the losers bracket championship of the 65AA at the Winternationals last month the final score was 4-0. I played with the Columbus SilverSticks who won. I find it very interesting that despite "senior" bats it was a bunch of singles that made the day--coupled with strong defense and a very smart pitcher. I am referring to Gman. Between innings he asked me if anyone had said anything about the sun. He started dropping the pitches out of the sun and no one could hit it. Hmmm should there be a rule about the sun?? I find this game more interesting than any I have seen especially when one considers that we scored 22 32 and 28 run in the prior three games. So to me good team play and not CRs or Senior bats make for the best games.
Dec. 15, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Exceptions don't prove anything. Your prior three games are much more indicative.
Dec. 15, 2011
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
Yes they are but indicative of what?? Not one ball was hit out of the park--so we have taken senior bats out of the equation--courtesy runners--interesting--I am a rabbit BUT I was run for by a slower guy in an attempt to save my legs as I had a strained groin and hamstring--hence th eterm "courtesy" runner---your argument holds no water Gary---
Dec. 15, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
The bats do MUCH more that produce more home runs. Balls get through both infield and outfield gaps much quicker. Outfielders have to play deeper to respect the "Miken power" of hitters, so more balls fall in and more extra bases can be taken. It has a huge effect. You really don't see that???????

Again, you are trying to prove a point by citing an exception. How many times were faster guys taken out for slower ones versus the other way around. Exceptions do NOT prove rules.
Dec. 15, 2011
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
ok I give you the fact that I am proving my point with actual verafiable facts--now can you give me one verafiable instance where a senior bat got someone an extra base?? I can tell you that I popped one up with my ultra 2 between the pitcher and home plate--they let it drop and I got a double---now how did that senior bat help me?? also give me a verafiable fact where a CR changed the game drastically?? I can give you a case where a CR actually caused a team to lose
Dec. 15, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Do you really play the game?

Outfielders have to play deeper, so balls hit in front of them can be stretched due to their longer run to get to the ball. Hits that would get cutoff now get through the gaps and obviously result in extra bases.

Do you not play? Do you not undertand the game?

Fast guys now running rampantly for slow guys. Hmmmmmmmmm, now how might that change the game?

Again, do you really play?
Dec. 15, 2011
softball4b
Men's 60
722 posts
Gary you don't play the game. You don't participate in any of the SSUSA tourneys Local or National.

You have a right to be heard, but seriously come spend your money like the rest of us, then express an opinion.
Dec. 15, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Steve, the bats are stupid hot. Hitting the ball out of the park is not the reason for concern. It's the speed thru the infield. Cmon, use some common sense here. The reason USSSA cannot use them is their insurance carrier will not allow them.
Dec. 15, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Those are the only places softball is played? (confused)

I don't follow guys who jump off bridges either. I have spent, and might again if I wouldn't have to play the same teams each time in the same small brackets. If that could improve, I would be happy to.

BTW, other than your usual sort of lame bashing, you did not dispute my explanation of how the special bats effect the game.

Common sense is not always, or even often, common.
Dec. 15, 2011
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
Well Gary I really thought you would have some facts but to my chagrin you had nothing.
In response to your questions and charges--I play the outfield and do not play deep until you burn me.
Do I play--well teams I played on won four out of seven tournament we entered this year including two winternational championships. and I ran myself until I would cramp up completely aand could not play just to help my team and the friends I play with. That is what senior softball is all about.
as for your comment about the bats--the shut out I mentioned--everyone used the senior bats---and as stated I hit some out using a demarini f3 --its an ASA bat--so if you can hit the bat doesn't matter --
also I was not bashing you I was challenging you to produce proof of your stance. I believe I saw you do the same thing in another thread.
This was my first year to travel and according to my wife the difference it made in me was worth any cost. So I will continue to play with all the problems guys like you bring up and be very happy doing so.
To the SSUSA staff you are doing a fantastic thankless job and I hope you know most of us really appreciate it--thank you and keep up the good work
Dec. 15, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
AGAIN, the exception does not prove the rule. Perhaps ou do play that way. Though, let's just pretend and say Steve does get burned, so then once you move back balls never fall in front of you that a speedy batter can stretch? You never have a ball get into the gap? You never see balls get through the infield due to the extra speed off the senior bats? Really? There is a preponderance of proof. Would you like dates, times, and locations?

I am glad that traveling made some great psychological impact on you, and that your wife is apparently happy for it. Fortunately I don't have those needs.
Dec. 15, 2011
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
once again Gary all you can do is generalize---I have been burned and yes some have gotten into the gap but do you know what as many were hit with an ASA bat as with the senior bats--I play in a park district league where everyone uses ASA bats--there is no way you can prove your stance and its not fact just because you keep coming at the point from different angles---it is speculated that senior bats give an advantage--can you produce proof?? speculation is not proof---and no one said anything about psychological inpact--- I was talking physically---but then by not playing you would never understand that aspect--now I have to go to the chiropractor dor treatment on a seperated shoulder--result of coming in for a short fly ball---
Dec. 15, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Steve, let clarify something here. Are you indicating the SB bats are not hotter than the others or do you just have a thorn in yourside from Gary?
Dec. 15, 2011
crusher
Men's 70
388 posts
Steve65,
well documented. Finally actual proof the Senior Bats
have no effect on the game. My DeMarini Double Wall sends
the ball thru the infield as fast a any of the other
Senior Bats.
Also this Gary19 is the same one that was banned as just GARY. He has multiple ID's so he can keep posting.
Looks like he is now using the Pricer ID for when the
Gary19 ID gets banned.

Will be glad when the new Solid Senior bat gets out,
hopefully it will improve on the performance of our current
Senior Bats as they really do not have to much pop. The new
bat has been delayed 14 months now though. Rummer has it
the bat will be ready for spring ball.

Again thanks for the proof of no special effects to the
senior game by the So Called Senior Bats. C
Dec. 15, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
Gary19,
Your living in a straw hut here, you use a senior bat, you have stated that when I asked before. I believe it was a Miken. The home next door is on fire and the wind blowing your way.
The rules are what they are, they only change if no one shows. That isn't happening yet.
Start your own T's and restrict the bats, use the other ball someone adores and change the CR rule in the process. But I'd venture a guess you have used one more than once especially when your knees were giving you trouble,
I know that one first hand too.
With the federal handicap law if someone pushed it they could use a wheel chair to get up to the plate, as long as they can hit the ball, they can also have a runner from there. (home plate). Rules really change on\with this law that's for sure.
As for bats I would venture a guess there isn't a senior player who doesn't own or use someone else's that plays T's.
In the games i doubt there is a team that hasn't used a CR at some point.
And with the balls both sides are using what ever is supplied so that is a level playing ground as well.
I have only met & talked to maybe 3 people over the years that just went to a game to loose. Two were so they could get into a different bracket (losers) and play them. They knew they would win, they did. The other had a grudge against the mgr.
Stay healthy and safe, Happy Holidays.

Dec. 15, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Crusher, if you'd like to contact me for clarification Gary and I are not the same person. Let me know, I'll arrange it somehow. But where the hell was this proof your talking about? Taits, bring your wheelchair, we'll let you play.
Dec. 15, 2011
crusher
Men's 70
388 posts
Well Pricer you sound like Gary19.

The Proof, steve65's word is the proof, actually I have
played many games like he talked about, great defense,
in league we can use any bat and most games are 8 to 12 runs and guys are from early 40's to 80. Some Homeruns are hit but not many.

Also played several tournament games 23-25 or so(a diff team), but when you consider our 2nd baseman would tip over when he had to move sideways to get a ball runs scored naturally go up.

If Taits was playing in a wheelchair against a team made up
of Gary19's' Taits would probably win 89-zero.

Thanks for the offer however no need to contact you as both posters sound the same 99% of the time.

Dec. 15, 2011
SLOBALL1
Men's 50
173 posts
Crusher-they are not the same person.

I've played against Pricer and have actually seen Gary play .Have communicated off line with them both as well.Both good guys.
Dec. 15, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
Pricer,
Haven't reached stage in life yet, but i'll keep it in mind. let us all know if and when you two put something together. It would make interesting reading as to the rules and teams that show up, as well as all the other things that go into putting a T together.
Seasons Greetings.
Dec. 15, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
crusher, sounds like you might need a courtesy thinker. I am available to help anytime.
Dec. 15, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1953 posts
ooops-that's 2 in allowable changes to the game in one day---just touching first on a hr and instituting a 'courtesy thinker'. You even offered to be the courtesy thinker. Were you the last out or are you a rabbit thinker? You're slipping.
Dec. 15, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Either one. I can either be the last one who had a thought, or a fast thinker. =)
Dec. 15, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
Just wondering, do you really give any of this honest thought or is it something to get a rise from someone?
Dec. 15, 2011
garyheifner
349 posts
Taits-you hit it on the head. The last man taken in the NFL draft is Mr. Irrelevant. If you think back over the years on this site, we have had a # of these. They eventually fade into the sunset if you ignore them.
Dec. 15, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
That makes me think we are in the land of the midnight sun ... lol
Dec. 15, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Well, the tongue-in-cheek comments should be obvious to all, but probably only are to some on here.

My idea for the CR rule hasn't been effectively disputed yet.

The sad realization that the oldest, slowest group playing the game is insistent on the hottest bats, and then hypocritically professes player safety, is both honest and astute.

Dec. 15, 2011
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
Gary19 it seems to everyone on here except you that every argument you have had on any and all subjects have been effectively disputed. you talk on here to hear yourself talk apparently your wife and children have heard your ramblings long enough and now shut you off.
Dec. 15, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Steve, what is the reason that using the last out to run cannot work?
Dec. 15, 2011
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Gary, you in my most humble opinion, =) are missing the point completely.
As we age we need things that HELP us with our daily lives so why not things that help us with our leisure time and interests as well. Thats one of the things the composites do for us, they help keep us interested in the game by enhancing our ability to hit the ball like we did at 20 or 30.
Obviously the idea has caught on or there wouldnt be so many composites in every Senior dugout across the country. And soon to be in most every Utrip dugout as well.
Its my belief that once Utrip makes the move, others will follow. Who knows maybe one day ASA will see the light too.
Dec. 15, 2011
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
never said it couldn't work except some teams have too many guys that need runners--I play on one of those
why can't you just accept it as a pinch runner and a managers right to use strategy???
personally I think CRs make the game far more interesting--
why can't yo urealize that there are thousands of guys like myself that love the opportunity to play and anything that prolongs that ability is very welcome
so why oh why do you have to attempt to rattle everyones cage???
Dec. 15, 2011
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Steve, he rattles because we let him.....
Dec. 15, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
E4/E6, thank you for your honesty. You are as far as I have read on this board you are the first to indicate the true reason the usage of most of the folks & the senior bats.
" Thats one of the things the composites do for us, they help keep us interested in the game by enhancing our ability to hit the ball like we did at 20 or 30." I respect the honesty!
Dec. 16, 2011
Omar Khayyam
984 posts
E4/E6 did speak the truth about the hot bats being enjoyable for many players. However, this is not a universal opinion, or we wouldn't be losing so many senior players who state that the unrealistic conditions due to the hot bat/hot ball combo has lessened their enjoyment to the point they no longer play.

In my case, I enjoy my Miken. It made me a home run hitter, me, a player who did not hit one home run in 50 years of playing but then hit two over the fence in one day with my mighty Miken! But the truth is that I enjoyed playing the game when I was 30...and 40...and 50...and 60 It didn't require a hot bat for me to have pleasure, nor did it for the millions of softball players in rec leagues and ASA who no longer play.

I honestly enjoyed the game more when I was a singles hitter because it was a more balanced game. More guys could fill a vital role without being sluggers. Better defense, better strategy, more importance for good baserunners, smaller fields, less fatigue, more deserved honor for the true home run hitter, fewer serious injuries, and on and on. We've lost something with the emphasis on offense (less than a decade old) that came with the introduction of the composite bats. I fear we will not recover the balanced game until the inevitable injury/death that results in a successful massive lawsuit which forces insurance companies to clamp down which will be the death knell of the composite bat.
Dec. 16, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
E4, that is fine assuming all you care about is hitting. What the bats "enhance" in hitting they take away in the opportunities to play defense as balls go flying past or over the waiting defenders. Sounds like a wash to me, unless you don't care about defense. And many seniors, sadly, just don't.

Steve, you can only need 3 runners at most at a time, and there always has to be at least 3 last outs. And the strategy excuse is crap. Then let's change it to a "stategic" runner. Remember, this isn't that complicated of a game, 8 year old girls used to play essentially the same version we do. Well, minus the senior gimmicks.

We can all love the opportunity to play, though I was fully expecting to still be able to at my age, but why do we have to settle for some strange, watered-down version?
Dec. 16, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
I think I finally figured it out.

Senior bats are the softball version of plastic surgery. They are a thinly-veiled attempt to still make you look and feel young even though everyone else, but you, realizes that you aren't.

What sad "reasoning". =(
Dec. 16, 2011
Capt Kirk
400 posts
GO AHEAD AND MAKE MY DAY, JUST COME AND TRY TO TAKE MY ULTRA 11!!
Dec. 16, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
That would likely be liposuction.
So why then, did you but a Miken Gary? They do the job intended with a good value now unless you crack\break them within a year a I have.
Dec. 16, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Yes I do, but would gladly give it up if others did, and if it could return the game to more of a semblance of what it used to be.

But using one doesn't make me feel any better, or younger.
Dec. 16, 2011
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Omar, you are right, remember how I used to interact with Einstein on this issue? I have since come to understand what he was saying, hitting the ball hard and long is a very enjoyable part of our game. Just not all of it.

Gary19 you are once again incorrect, there is ONLY one (1) last out, one (1). The two before the last out are just that, before or previous.
You make it sound like theres never an out made hitting with Senior Bats, if thats the case then who will be the courtesy runner? There is no last out. =)
Dec. 16, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Sorry, I thought it was understood if you need another you go back to the next one, or if the last out cannot run you go back to the one before. It was always understood to work that way when we first put this in 20 or so years ago.

Of course, back then it really was a courtesy that had to be approved by the other team.

Sure there are some outs made, but not nearly as many as there used to be since now innings can end with no outs being made at all (silly, very silly, but sadly true).
Dec. 16, 2011
tater9
62 posts
AD NAUSEAM!
Dec. 16, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
IGNORE!!!!!!!!!
Dec. 16, 2011
tater9
62 posts
Trust me....I will. Circular, subjective conversations with no end in sight. Silly old men!
Dec. 16, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Same silly old men who need the special bats to feel good, don't trust umps to call balls and strikes, need rabbits, and willing to buy their own prizes,and no longer believe it should be necessary to record three outs to earn their ups.
Dec. 16, 2011
tater9
62 posts
I agree and again......circular, subjective conversations with no end in sight.
Dec. 16, 2011
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
beats sittin on the porch spittin tobacca, doesnt it tater?

Gary what do you do to make yourself feel good? Hitting the ball hard doesnt seem to be one of the things you enjoy, so why own a senior bat at all? Rather hypocritical dont you think? How about picking a side and fighting the good fight. Rid yourself of the evils in senior softball.
From now on dont use your senior bat, dont accept any count when the ball hits the mat, always run for yourself, if the day comes when you have the right to buy your own prize, Dont, and for goodness sake, learn what last really is.
Then let us know how that works out for you.
I'm like so many on these issues, DONE....
Dec. 16, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Sure I enjoy it, but to me working for it is more enjoyable than just purchasing it. Otherwise I would place a trampoline under my basket, dunk, and somehow feel like Dr. J.

I own one to be competitive within the rules, and contrary to those who claim to just play for fun and friends, I play to compete. Fun and friends and great by-products, but you play the games to win.

Again, unlike many I would play without them. And I don't whine that someone using a senior bat hit a ball within my area code.
Dec. 16, 2011
curveball
Men's 65
400 posts
"Same silly old men who need the special bats to feel good, don't trust umps to call balls and strikes, need rabbits, and willing to buy their own prizes,and no longer believe it should be necessary to record three outs to earn their ups."

I'd take 9 of these type guys as teammates as opposed to 1 "cancer". Glass half empty negative individuals are a waste of lifes precious moments.

E4/E6, I agree, DONE.............
Dec. 16, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
So I guess the only options are to bend over and take it, or be a "cancer".

I will take 9 guys who want to win, and are willing to work for it without special accommodations.
Dec. 16, 2011
perly
88 posts
Gary19

If I played a game that had so many flaws, as softball does if we listen to to you, I'd find another sport more to my liking.

You must live just to irriate people. Obviously you don't play senior softball, not tournament ball anyway because of the small tourn-outs, playing the same teams over and over, hitting good bats/balls, having cuourtesy runners, lack of defense, etc. So why should anyone debate you since you don't even participate.

You have attempted to take over this board and it's sad that we have to put up with your nonsense.

BRING BACK EINSTEIN. Like his point of view or not at least he really was a softball player that wanted, in his mind, what as best for the game and didn't come on the site just to be a nuesance.

This website has gone to the dogs. Same old crap being re-cycled over and over.
Dec. 16, 2011
curveball
Men's 65
400 posts
No Gary, there are a great majority of us that are not bent over, but stand up straight and tall because we are extremely happy we are part of such a wonderful sport at our age. We find flaws, but in general, totally enjoy our experience. We are thankful that the powers to be are who they are, not negative minded souls as you.
Great time to thank SSUSA and their Association, and guys like Marv19, for giving us a venue that old guys can partisipate in the last 20% of their journey.
None of the Associations are perfect, but appear to be what the majority craves. I'm not alone in being anxious for my next tournament a soon as the last one ends, no matter what the outcome was. For some of us, it's one of the best parts of our existence.
Perly, a lot of good points........
Dec. 16, 2011
TOKE9
5 posts
Well said Perly!!! Our game is not perfect but I love it . We are so fortunate just to have an organization for us to continue to play and compete.
Dec. 16, 2011
5ToolsinOhio
Men's 50
160 posts
When there is no chalk line for a batters box i think "the call of out" is a bush call! G19? sorry guys HAHAHAHAHA.
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