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Discussion: Rule change Interaction

Posted Discussion
Dec. 24, 2011
garyheifner
361 posts
Rule change Interaction
Some have stated we (actual tournament players) don't have any imput to the rules. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am not, SSWC posted a number of weeks back for players to chime in on rule change thoughts. I did on one regarding the white/orange 1st base and it is being carried to the summit for discussion.

Also, Terry, Fran or Dave or other staff officials are at all the ring tournaments and some of the qualifers. There is ample opportunity to walk over to the TD tables and talk about the game. I have done that on numerous occasions and they listen.

If you don't get your thoughts to the SSWC staff, its your own fault.
Dec. 24, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
gary i like the double for safety sake,even the kid assoc use it,not sure why you would change that,please expand your thought.

i have had talks with terry and dave at tourney's about certain rules and equipment choices for us,but that is about it.
Dec. 24, 2011
pitcher55
Men's 55
130 posts
an individual player poll would be wise.mailed to every player.list the rules that many are questioning.yes or no,with options.we the players,respond back on line or by mail.
majority rules!!the majority will enjoy the tourneys even more!!
ssusa would begin growing faster.
dennis wiley "lights out" 55aaa socal.
Dec. 26, 2011
garyheifner
361 posts
Mad Dog

My rule concern is not the double base, it is great and stays. There is a little known rule that if you are on 1st and any part of your foot touches the orange when the ball leaves the pitchers hand, you are out. Semi-finals, ring tourney, bottom of 7th, bases loaded, 2 outs, down one run and great hitter up. Ball leaves pitchers hand, base ump yells time and calls runner out and we go to losers bracket. Heel touched orange. The orange is for plays at 1st. Shouldn't matter if you touch/stand on it or not once you are there and next batter is up.

Point. You are on 3rd and right hander up. You stand in foul territory with one foot on base. Safety margin. You are on 1st and left handed batter up. You are forced to stand in fair territory. I was hit twice last year by left handed singles hitters. NO, it had nothing to do with bats. Both were using bats approved by all associations at the time. You should be able to stand on the orange-safety margin. In fact, you would be penalizing yourself as you would be 2 steps farther away front 2nd.

If some have trouble picturing this, the next time your team has batting practice on a real field, when a left hander comes up to hit, go stand on the white part of 1st base with no glove like a runner. I think you will get my drift.
Dec. 27, 2011
ham24
24 posts
I know in ASA rules once attaining 1st base a player can start from the orange bag. I didn't know in senior softball you couldn't. You gain no advantage starting from the orange bag other than not getting your head ripped off by a big leftie.
Dec. 27, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
While I agree about protecting your head, the one advantage you can get is a running start. If you time it right you can have decent momentum already going toward second when the ball is struck. I would think that is the reason for the rule, and it does make sense.
Dec. 27, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
Gary, I just went through my copy of the rules and did not see that particular situation addressed, let alone ruled an out. SSUSA staff, what's the rule? I always thought as long as you are touching the white bag you were ok and the orange bag was considered to be not there. Seems kinda silly that it would be an out to touch it.
Dec. 27, 2011
Tater50
336 posts
Gary: I have stated it many times; but the power of the vote is what computes.

Today: A Player Poll might be taken: it may give us exactly what we have at the present; but according to multiple threads on this board, the CR needs to be visited & other rules; but we are only talking about 1%(guessing) of ALL of SSball Players that thread this board..

Example: If there are 400(just guessing) teams that attend the Las Vegas Tourney X 15 players that= 6000 votes. That is just one example. How many SSbal players overall; 10K???

I have ideas; you have ideas; but the majority does not vote on the rules; a Player Poll would accomplish that or team coaches that have amalgamated the total team concepts on what needs to voted on (would take LESS time).

How do I know that my thoughts will be projected @ the SSball Summit? I cannot afford to go to the SSummit!!! I do not know of anyone that I have played with in the last 12 years that has gone; w/the exception of 2-3 coaches. On-line Player Polls would cut the SSummit expense.

I know a lot of passive players that have great ideas that would not tell an AD or a TD their thoughts, but would tell their coaches or would eeeeeee their thoughts to the associations.

Send out a poll; give the players or coaches 2 weeks to respond w/their thoughts of rules change; then consolidate the changes & then proceed w/a PPoll.

The time to do this is in the OFF season (for 2012)& not during the season.

Not trying to tread on your thread, but we are ALL a union & the majority needs to speak.

Tater50
PS Don't change the CR too much or I'll have to sit @ home LOL!!!!!.
Dec. 27, 2011
SLOBALL1
Men's 50
173 posts
pitcher 55.I don't see where anything would have to be mailed. The Poll can be set up on line just as the player registration is.Sign in using your registration number - complete the poll -hit send. Depending on the format the Poll data can be assimilated and results calculated in a matter of hours or a few days max.
Dec. 27, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
I think you guys underestimate how many people talk to the tournament directors and the representatives at every tournament, or even email to SSUSA. They have a much better handle on the 'pulse' of senior softball than you seem to think.
Dec. 27, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
garyh never heard that if your touching the orange bag in conjunction with the white your out.i have heard(this was posted a few months back about this)if your "only touching" the orange bag in senior ball yes your out.
Dec. 27, 2011
TOMAR77
Men's 55
199 posts
Agree with the,
1.White/Orange Bases at 1st
2.Strike Mat
3.0/0 Count
4.2 Home plates
5.5 Run Equalizer (or 11 players)
6.5 Run Innings (till the last Inning)
7.Couresty Runners current RULES.

Get a LIFE ! If you don't like the rules go elsewhere , it ain't Rocket Science. So make your own decision. I am all for debates but as stated earlier the POOR HORSE IS DEAD! Get over yourselves and move on.
TOMAR

Dec. 27, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
TOMAR, you certainly are welcome to your beliefs, though some reason why those are good ideas to back up your beliefs wouldn't be a bad.

As far as your last line, unnecessary and just makes you come across like an internet tough guy.
Dec. 27, 2011
TOMAR77
Men's 55
199 posts
I am actually much like a mild mattered Clark Kent. The Superman in me only comes out when I Defend God , Family and Country !
The legimate reasons for my beleifs have been stated many times on this Board by others ,in full detail. I will not bore you Gary19 by reiterating them. Suffice it to say:
SAFTEY
COMPETIVE GAMES
Age
Grateful
And probably ,most Importantly I am not a Freaking Dinosaur I can ADAPT and still consider myself a Player no matter the Rules!
Have A Terrific & Healthy "2012"
TOMAR
Dec. 27, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Fair enough.

I honestly don't see any of those rules having anything to do with our ages. Perhaps the courtesy runner, but not the way is is currently abused. And only the two bases at first, which is fine with me, and the unnecessary double home plate, have anything to do with safety.

Not a matter of being a dinosaur. Change is fine, if it adds anything, but these really don't. The double bases are okay, I suppose. The mat is silly. 0/0 count is the only way to play. The equalizer is embarassing, who wants to say they won with gifts, both teams are flesh and blood why should the team that works harder or just has more talent be penalized? CR is fine, if used for courtesy and not abuse.
Dec. 28, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
How magnanimous of you, Gary, to actually allow us to have our own opinions. We all do have our reasons why we feel as we do about the rules and those feelings are good enough for us. Most of us don't spend 5 hours a day here posting, (I will be back in school in a week and not so bored or on here very much), so many don't feel the need to put all of our reasons out here. We all know how you feel and that you will never change your mind, either.

Gary, start your own thread. Write down all of your beliefs in how our game has been changed for the worse. Number them from 1 to 100 if you have to go that high. Explain each reason. Then, when you want to bring up a point here, all you have to say is : Refer to MY Thread, number so-and-so. You will have already elaborated on the subject and won't have to type the same thing out so many times and this will allow you to dissent more expeditiously. And we won't have to read the same thing over and over and over and over...
Dec. 28, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
I always have, I just ask for some thought behind them.

I only bring things up again when written to/complained about/ridiculed/ostracized. Seldom, if ever, just begin a new thread with them for the hell of it.
Dec. 28, 2011
tg69
307 posts
Webbie25.good meeting you in Vegas..I guess you know your wasting your time.LOL
Dec. 28, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
tg69-can't let you have the last word yet! lol It was good to meet you too.
I know I'm wasting my time, but I'm bored, there's snow on the ground, so this keeps me out of trouble.
Dec. 28, 2011
Wes
Men's 65
311 posts
Gary-there are some rule that are made because there are still some out there that do not want to play it as a game but must show 'who ever' how good/great/etc. they are.
I played high school and college football no broken bones--
I was catching in a Church league and this guy wanted to
show off for his girl friend and ran me over coming home and
broke my collier bone
Wes
Dec. 29, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
Wes-we had a kamikaze kid here in Albuquerque at our old sportsplex that took out a young mother at home plate in a coed game and put her in a hospital. What a colossal idiot. And, they walk among us!!!
That second plate is a great idea for the brittle bones that happen in old age.
Dec. 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Wes, where were you positioned when the collision occured?
Dec. 29, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
Wow-now it was Wes's fault?? Bottom line-it would not have happened with a second plate as we have. Period.
Dec. 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Not sure yet. If he was in the baseline, who else's fault would it be?

And it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't been born, if he had taken up another hobby, if it had rained that day, if his car had broken down on the way, if he played another position, and on and on. How far do you want to go with the "what if" game?

Are there idiots out there? Sure. But a catcher has the play in front of him, and yes as any baseball coach will teach it is all about how the defensive player positioned himself. I was just logically wondering if he did all he could have to protect himself, and at that point it is up to the baserunner not to be an idiot. But truthfully the idiots are far and few between.

The MUCH more vulnerable guy is the second baseman who is taking a throw from left field while the baserunner is coming into second from BEHIND him, where he cannot see him at all. No, the runner won't be running through the base, but he will/should be running and then sliding as fast and hard as he can into the bag. Yet we think that is safe, but not the play at the plate where the catcher can has it all in front of him and should position himself accordingly.

To answer your question, if he was in the baseline than yea he would have some/much responsibility, but I can't say for sure in that particular play.

Dec. 29, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1980 posts
Would it have even happened with the second plate? No. And that's the point. You can debate who's fault it was all day. Point is, it doesn't happen with the second plate. That's the safety play and is good for senior softball.
I believe we all are very competitive out there. If I were catching and a play was happening at the plate, my instincts have me out there trying to get the out, which might mean flagging a throw that is up the line. At 30 years old I'm going after that ball no matter what. At 60, I think about it. We are just not as resilient out there. Second plate-good rule in senior ball.
Dec. 29, 2011
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
Come on Gary---lets erase the batters box around your thinking and look at these rules for what they are.
First this is a SERIOR Softball organization. The extra home plate the extra first base are there for the supposed safety of the "OLD" players. Our old bones do get brittle and they do break when abused hence minimize the danger.
Before you ask "why no extra second base" and extra obstacle in the open field would create more not less opportunity for injury for sight challenged "old guys". The second baseman in thi sinstance should have a pitcher shortstop first baseman watching for him--
why does "idiots" have to be brought into play?? Guys that want to win at any cost --hence senior bats harder balls--will do whatever it takes to win but that does not make anyone an idiot.
Personally I slide far more than most but learned with age that sliding away from the bag (second or third) will most likely get you a safe call quicker than going hard into the bag. It is much harder to tag a reaching hand than it is an entire body.
Common sense dictates in most instances
Dec. 29, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
I agree with Tomar77 & will add one, no flip flop.
Rule on double 1st base is as follows:
8.4 AFTER GETTING A HIT
8.4 (1) BATTER/RUNNER REACHING FIRST BASE
Each batter must reach first base without the aid of a courtesy runner.
A Double Bag shall be used at first base, the double portion of the
PLAYING RULES 59
bag being in foul territory abutting first base. If there is a play on
a batter/runner going to first base, the batter/runner must touch the
portion of the Double Bag extending into foul territory. He will be
called out if he fails to do so, except, in the umpireÕs judgment, the
batter-runner is avoiding a collision. This is NOT an appeal play.
Important: The defending player has only the white base, in fair
territory, to make the putout; his touch of only the bag in foul ter-ritory will not result in an out.

I have played many T's where they allow a runner on 1st to start from the orange bag when a left handed batter is up. As stated above it's on par with the 3rd base situation.
Dec. 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Would it have happened if the sport had been abolished? No. How far can we go with this?

Actually, if the guy really was trying to impress his girlfriend, who says he wouldn't have done it anyway? Who knows how far some guy will go to impress a chick? We can't say. But we can say that the catcher is in the perfect position to protect himself if at all possible.

Steve, so bones are less brittle around second and third? We don't seem to care what collisions happen there. How do you arbitrarily draw the line at home and first?

And "idiots" are brought in because no matter what safety measures you bring in there will always be a few idiots just out to hurt someone for whatever idiotic reason. Playing hard, and wanting to win, certainly does not make someone an idiot. But unnecessarily taking a cheap shot at someone does.
Dec. 29, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Gary, It's ok man, the game will continue, honestly it will. With both good rules and some questionable ones, but what ever they are both sides playing are under them.
If a team or player does not like them you do not need to attend. Fairly simple.
Maybe we all have had too much eggnog, of something stronger like Everclear.
Have a great New Year Guys. Most anything would be an improvement.
Dec. 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Scott, the second home plate is one of the less-annoying "senior" rules, so I certainly can live with it. But for anyone to claim that plays at home are any less safe than plays at second is silly. At least there already is a rule at all ages covering collisions at home, there are none (nor should there be) for sliding cleanly into second or third and causing a collision.
Dec. 29, 2011
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
and on we go-----Gary I covered the second base situation in my first post--scenerio--barrel hard into second attempting to run over second baseman and chance having him fall on you possibly breaking something on one or both--or slide with entire body toward opposite outfield side and reach out with inner hand--conclusion with old vision hand much harder to see and tag than an overweight body---I think that is called finesse---perhaps all do not understand that aspect of playing
Dec. 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
So infielders are expected to see balls coming off the special bats, but they cannot see a stationary base on the ground? Seriously????? Not saying I want extra bases on the field, but tha can't possibly be the reason why they aren't.

NO one said to "barrel" into anyone, but hard slides are and always will be part of the game. Yes, there are times when sliding to the side and reaching out is fine, and other times when you need to break up a double play if you can. It all depends on the situation.
Dec. 29, 2011
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
Gary again you change--can you not stay on subject--your original situation was a throw coming in from left field---that was answered so you change to breaking up a double play---
Dec. 29, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Gary, I could agree w\ that as to w\3rd but Having Bb and Sb with them being allowed I was more 'pain' inflicted at home to runners & the catcher than at both 2nd and 3rd combined. Likely because of the need to score. Saw nasty wrist and ankle breaks at the bases also.
2nd home plate or the line if fine.
Bottom line is really safety and that also has a insurance cost relationship. On that I think the real concern should be the field conditions, ie pot holes, gopher holes etc.
On the 'sliding' I haven't looked at it here but there used to be a 'get down or away' rule to avoid collisions in most places.
As for home plate I haven't thought about that since high school BB and Babe Ruth, & the FP over 35 league I played in. Back then it was score, how ever.
Dec. 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
All the same subect, plays at second base.

Scott, sure you score at home, but you need to get to second and third before you can. So those bases are just as important. If I am out at second or third I will never get the opportunity to score.

I agree, the plate is fine.
Dec. 29, 2011
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
trying to be safe in order to have the opportunity to score later is again the reason for a good slide---but one thing that is really inportant if you are going to score--you have to play--no one can score from their keyboard
Dec. 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Absolutely correct. I will be out January 5th playing indoors. How about you?
Dec. 29, 2011
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
indoor starts jan 10 TOC in Feb---
Dec. 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Glad to see we will both be playing this winter. Next spring and summer as well.
Dec. 29, 2011
frampton
Men's 55
55 posts
The chief difference at second and third is, the runner can't go past the bag the way a runner can go past the plate. (Once the runner is forced out on a double-play ball, he has to go down or risk having the batter called out at first.) Tag or force plays on the bases, there are moves to make that will avoid direct collisions (and, assuming the ball is there on time, push a sliding runner away from the base). Similar moves are there for catchers (I caught for a few years when I played fastpitch), though (as Buster Posey can attest) sometimes you get in a bad position and can indeed get hurt. It was an acceptable risk in my 20s and 30s (though I was pretty crazy in those years, and am paying for it now in my late 50s), but less so now.

It's also true that in slow-pitch you don't always have the most agile guys back there, so the second plate is a sensible thing. Your second baseman and shortstop need to be more agile, so there's that difference as well, they typically have been middle infielders all their lives and by the time they're seniors you'd think they'd figured out how to make tags and double plays without getting hurt very often. (Or, know when to get out of there and take the one out.)
Dec. 29, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
when sliding do you have to slow down any,just asking......

also there is no such rule in any assoc that i know of that requires a runner to slide or get out of the way,when going into any base.there are rules about intentionally colliding with a fielder when running,so any intentional collision is an out and sometimes even an ejection from the game.
Dec. 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
frampton, there are also plenty of moves a catcher can use to avoid collisions, and the catcher has the advantage of seeing the runner coming in. And sure there is some legitimate risk, but I see many more middle infielders at all levels getting taken out than I do catchers. But maybe just me.

The slide will cause you to slow, but you shouldn't slow down running before the slide. I agree with you about not having to get out of the way, though a smart infielder has ways to make sure the runner gets out of the way one way or another.
Dec. 29, 2011
frampton
Men's 55
55 posts
Agreed about the catchers (though a throw from right does make you blind to the runner); I was taught to show half of the plate to the runner, then pivot with the tag to take that half away. Though getting taken out at second is most likely to be getting one's feet swept out, rather than a shoulder-to-shoulder contact that happens in hardball. I know that here in Northern California, it has been many years since it was legal to run over the catcher in softball, though.

True also that slowing down before you slide is a good way to get hurt, the trick is to lean back so you actually slide over the top layer of dirt. Slowing down, you're more likely to hit the ground hard.
Dec. 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
All my understanding as well.
Dec. 29, 2011
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Bob, rule 8.6 in the current rules book pretty well covers this, it says slide or avoid to prevent collision.
Dec. 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
So what is the call if you don't slide, avoid, or collide? If you just stop and stand in the basepath. I wouldn't imagine there is any call at all, so what does this rule cover?
Dec. 29, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
8.6 SLIDING OPTIONAL - AVOIDING
COLLISIONS
Sliding or diving into first base or the Scoring Plate/Line is permit-
ted. A player may also slide or dive into second and third bases and
or when returning to any base. A runner must make every effort to
avoid colliding with opposing players while running the bases and or
sliding or diving. If, in the umpireÕs judgment, a runner misses
a base to avoid a collision, the runner will not be called out. If
in the judgment of the umpire, the runner fails to avoid a col-
lision with a defensive player involved in the play, the ball will
be declared dead and that runner called out. All base runners
PLAYING RULES 65
except the batter will be returned to their previous base unless
forced to advance. If in the judgment of the umpire the runnerÕs
collision with the defensive player involved in the play negates
a double play, the umpire may award a second out.
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